Gamedevs should work together with 3D artists

[bethrezen0]

Make 5k a month, give 30% to the artist, that's 1500 extra bucks for him on the side and 3500 for you. For a part-time project that's absolutely fantastic, and 5K is a realistic goal for a good game. With excellent animations from an actual 3D NSFW artist, 5k is probably even pessimistic, given that you'll leave a lot of other developers in that area behind.

There are NSFW developers on Patreon that make even way more than that (10k+) who definitely not even put part-time effort into their project. Ironically, the number #1 DarkCookie has released almost nothing in the past 2 years and is still having over 31.000 paying monthly members. And again, that's still pre-release without all the post-release sales.

Do you mean make 5k a month just in general or from an already existing game on ur patreon/subscriberstar/whatever else ?
Since you know, to make 5k a month you already need something, if you are a beginner dev, you have 0$ a month from your project.
And if you are not an artist and programmer yourself, chances that you will reach even 5k a month is very damn slim.
No one will pay you just because, until you already presented something that people want to pay for, then yeah, you can do nothing for years and throw occasional updade and still get ur 5k a month, but at that point, you won't even need to hire an artist.
And those 5k if ur lucky, yeah there are cool stories about porn game devs earing a lot from thier games, and those are minority, most devs are earning jack shit.

Here's an example: https://f95zone.to/threads/the-bouncing-agency-v0-19-adn700.142560/

I don't know the story behing this game but, since it's ren'py slop, I assume this is an exact example of a game made by an artist, zero game, but great visuals.

 

[woody554]

I appreciate the attempt of elevating the level of these games, and I do think we as a community severely need this kind of effort to raise the quality.

but, none of this is new to most of us, people have tried to make this strategy work since the times we first started seeing reasonable revenue streams. many have even sank all their savings trying to kickstart such a serious team effort. but the result has always been a swift and utter destruction, most of these teams don't even get a launch out not to mention updates before they're bankrupt or critical team member split for often flaky reasons.

it just doesn't seem to EVER work, not even a little bit.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

Do you mean make 5k a month just in general or from an already existing game on ur patreon/subscriberstar/whatever else ?
Since you know, to make 5k a month you already need something, if you are a beginner dev, you have 0$ a month from your project.
And if you are not an artist and programmer yourself, chances that you will reach even 5k a month is very damn slim.
No one will pay you just because, until you already presented something that people want to pay for, then yeah, you can do nothing for years and throw occasional updade and still get ur 5k a month, but at that point, you won't even need to hire an artist.
And those 5k if ur lucky, yeah there are cool stories about porn game devs earing a lot from thier games, and those are minority, most devs are earning jack shit.

That's how it goes. People gather together, they all agree to work "for free" in the first 3-6 months, they make contracts on how revenue is split, and then they put in the effort - on the side while earning a living with their main jobs. The first months are a bit of a grind, but as soon as the base is built and the project can be shared and enjoyed, things start to get going and money flows in.

 

[Hadley]

In a perfect world all devs would also have good writers, proof readers, translators and coders. But thats not how it works.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

but, none of this is new to most of us, people have tried to make this strategy work since the times we first started seeing reasonable revenue streams. many have even sank all their savings trying to kickstart such a serious team effort. but the result has always been a swift and utter destruction, most of these teams don't even get a launch out not to mention updates before they're bankrupt or critical team member split for often flaky reasons.

it just doesn't seem to EVER work, not even a little bit.

Yeah but also don't get fooled by the fact that many of the people trying this out are just incompetent. Since everyone and their grandmother have access to technology these days, a lot of not so talented and desillusional people are trying to make NSFW games. It's just like if you take a look at the general RPGM forums, you'll see tons of projects but only 1% will actually finish. This of course wasn't the case when this kind of technology was mainly used by people understanding their fields and having a real passion for it.

You could also observe this with the infamous "flood of trash games" on Steam, the increase of very low quality games that has quadrupled in the recent years. That didn't change the market in a negative way - in fact, the market has grown and chances are better than ever before -> for competent teams.

We just see more of the talentless people these days. But the chances are fantastic for competent people who are good at teambuilding, teamwork, communication and organizing things - and of course having great game ideas and stunning art.

So if someone wants to make a successful NSFW game, having stunning art already under your roof is one of the keys to not end up at the bottom of insignificance but instead fly higher.

 

[woody554]

Yeah but also don't get fooled by the fact that many of the people trying this out are just incompetent.

yeah, it's impossible to know the real level of skill people have until we see something. there's been a LOT of people claiming to be competent professional teams announcing starting a development here, but I don't remember a single case that ever released anything after that announcement. they just disappear like guys who "have ideas and are thinking of starting to make a game". talkers ain't doers.

 

[bethrezen0]

That's how it goes. People gather together, they all agree to work "for free" in the first 3-6 months, they make contracts on how revenue is split, and then they put in the effort - on the side while earning a living with their main jobs. The first months are a bit of a grind, but as soon as the base is built and the project can be shared and enjoyed, things start to get going and money flows in.

That's how it goes when you are a game dev and you have some friends or acquaintances who are into creating a game with you who are also artists, that's quite specific, most people who wanna make a game i'd assume not in that situation.
Cause no random good artist will ever agree to work "for free".

 

[Luderos]

That's how it goes. People gather together, they all agree to work "for free" in the first 3-6 months, they make contracts on how revenue is split, and then they put in the effort - on the side while earning a living with their main jobs. The first months are a bit of a grind, but as soon as the base is built and the project can be shared and enjoyed, things start to get going and money flows in.

Are you a high-quality 3d artist? Are you willing to work for 6 months for free on someone else's project, signing over all of the work, on the chance that the game will be successful enough to pay a reasonable rev-share? If so, is the only thing holding you back that you can't find an agreeable game developer to partner with?

 

[Fuchsschweif]

That's how it goes when you are a game dev and you have some friends or acquaintances who are into creating a game with you who are also artists, that's quite specific, most people who wanna make a game i'd assume not in that situation.
Cause no random good artist will ever agree to work "for free".

That's also how it goes when start-ups search for people who want to build something from the ground on job searching websites. Especially in coding-related fields like games or apps.

It's not working "for free". It's an investment in the future. You can potentially earn way more with a provision from a very well selling product than being (under)paid once and then the project is skyrocketing after release, while you look down at your relatively small payout check.

Tesla gives out company stocks to its employees, because it motivates them to work better. The better the company performs, the more everyone gets.

I don't know the story behing this game but, since it's ren'py slop, I assume this is an exact example of a game made by an artist, zero game, but great visuals.

I'd say it's an excellent example of how uplifting great art / 3D animations can be and that this aspect shouldn't be neglected by any NSFW developer.

Are you a high-quality 3d artist? Are you willing to work for 6 months for free on someone else's project, signing over all of the work, on the chance that the game will be successful enough to pay a reasonable rev-share? If so, is the only thing holding you back that you can't find an agreeable game developer to partner with?

I work in other fields of the non-nsfw media industry as an artist (not visuals) and yes, I would be willing to do that if the project looks promising and fun to me.

 

[Najelith]

We've been using illusion studio to do our models and animations some custom with vnge, one of the main problems is the penetration animation this is also true for daz animations but to a lesser extent. I would absolutely love to have a dedicated animator/rigger working with us for rev share but the elephant in the room is do you know any that are willing? especially for a game that's unproven as of yet that could possibly make nothing or make alot after release you can't predict these things all the time I've seen really good games with hand drawn art that look great that only make 200$ a month or something. Are there 3d animators or sculptors or riggers for custom genetelia lining up to work with us? or even willing to take the leap of faith that their efforts after months of basically free labor will bare fruit if you know any let me know.

 

[bethrezen0]

That's also how it goes when start-ups search for people who want to build something from the ground on job searching websites. Especially in coding-related fields like games or apps.

It's not working "for free". It's an investment in the future. You can potentially earn way more with a provision from a very well selling product than being (under)paid once and then the project is skyrocketing after release.

Tesla gives out company stocks to its employees, because it motivates them to work better. The better the company performs, the more everyone gets.

Well, if you say so...
I don't know much about startups and stuff. But if i was a professional in a field, i'd never buy that "investment in the future"
working for something that may or may not succeed, "temporary" for free. When i already can have an stable income from what i do, especially.

And porn game devs are not even remotely a business like a Tesla, and they don't have any stocks, so that's a weird comparison.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

And porn game devs are not even remotely a business like a Tesla, and they don't have any stocks, so that's a weird comparison.

The comparison obviously aimed at the aspect that holding shares of a companies revenue (stocks, provision) can increase in worth parallel to the performance of the company and therefore holds great potential if everything goes well, compared to one-time-payouts. Both ways of contracting aren't unusual for freelance artist in the world of digital media, depending on the specific project.

But if i was a professional in a field, i'd never buy that "investment in the future" working for something that may or may not succeed, "temporary" for free. When i already can have an stable income from what i do, especially.

Optimally these projects run on the side. Like I said, the creation phase has no time pressure. People can just work 2 hours a day on the side while staying in their stable income job until the initial release. And then, if enough money comes in, it might be possible to shift a bit, reducing the monthly hours in the main job and doing more for the other project, if it can provide financially.

When the other project is done and one returns fully to the main job, the monthly comissions from the finished project will add up. And it will of course also help with future projects like this, because you have some sort of passive income which makes it easier to lower the main job when taking on a new side project.

 

[Luderos]

I work in other fields of the non-nsfw media industry as an artist (not visuals) and yes, I would be willing to do that if the project looks promising and fun to me.

Great! Have you ever actually done it though? It's not that I think what you're saying is untrue, but I feel like it understates the extent to which the stars have to align for someone to happily work for someone else for 6 months or more with no guarantee of payment. I'm sure there are countless developers who would be literally ecstatic to find a great artist who would be happy to work in this arrangement. I think the "great artist willing to work for "free" for 6 months" is the harder-to-fill side of this problem.

 

[Najelith]

maybe some of these artists will see the thread and want to join in hopefully

 

[Fuchsschweif]

Great! Have you ever actually done it though? It's not that I think what you're saying is untrue, but I feel like it understates the extent to which the stars have to align for someone to happily work for someone else for 6 months or more with no guarantee of payment. I'm sure there are countless developers who would be literally ecstatic to find a great artist who would be happy to work in this arrangement. I think the "great artist willing to work for "free" for 6 months" is the harder-to-fill side of this problem.

There are great tweaks one can do to the contract to motivate the artist. Such as that if the game will be officially abandoned along the way, all the rights of the assets flow back to the artist. Which means he could sell them on 3D marketplaces and use them for new creations that go into his portfolio.

In this case the work wasn't for nothing. Also don't underestimate the skills picked up when working with a bit of pressure and constantly on a project over a couple of months. It's also something to put into your CV, improves your soft skills and so on and so forth.

I on the other hand wonder how many of the people being skeptical about the probabilities here did actually try to find someone? How many job offers did you write at official job boards and websites? In how many forums did you promote your project with that exact business model and looked out for artists? To how many NSFW artists on twitter did you reach out and pitched them your project?

I think people are quick with saying "nah this doesn't work" before they even put in 5% of effort and tried it out.

 

[peterppp]

Here's an example: https://f95zone.to/threads/the-bouncing-agency-v0-19-adn700.142560/

This game really stands out with the quality of the animations. In the reviews you can basically read all over the place that the animations are so great, that they even make up for not the best writing.

The game has been in development for not even 2 years, and the dev already has 1.054 paying subcribers on Patreon alone. Almost another 100 on Boosty. And that's still pre-release without actual game sales.

you should check your examples better. his patreon has been active for years and he was making money long before this game was released. the game maybe added a few hundred patrons.

You must be registered to see the links

and that is a game made BY a 3d artist. he doesn't need to share anything.

your suggestion that 3d artists of the caliber you are referring to should team up with a dev and only accept a patreon share as payment for a future "we'll make 5k+ easy" promise is just unrealistic... which is the reason it doesn't happen. you haven't thought of something no one ever thought of before

 

[bethrezen0]

The comparison obviously aimed at the aspect that holding shares of a companies revenue (stocks, provision) can increase in worth parallel to the performance of the company and therefore holds great potential if everything goes well, compared to one-time-payouts. Both ways of contracting aren't unusual for freelance artist in the world of digital media, depending on the specific project.

The average porn game dev are not even a company though, just some guy with a dream with nothing behind them, no shares, nothing. A dude making game on a knee. Indie devs, especially porn ones, are kind of in a same boat as the artists.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

you should check your examples better. his patreon has been active for years and he was making money long before this game was released. the game maybe added a few hundred patrons.

You must be registered to see the links

You should check it better. As you can see, his Patreon really started growing since this project is up. He almost doubled his paying members since then. The main chunk came with the latest updates of the linked game.

your suggestion that 3d artists of the caliber you are referring to should team up with a dev and only accept a patreon share as payment for a future "we'll make 5k+ easy" promise is just unrealistic... which is the reason it doens't happen. you haven't thought of an idea no one ever thought of

Most people who just want to make a game don't think of the various business models and ways to hire staff. They might even not believe it's possible, so they don't bother. Like I said, most people doing (NSFW) games these days aren't really competent, but they're not the standard you should look at for what's possible.

The business models I talked about in this thread are common in the professional freelancer industry especially for artists. You take a look at the lowest of the low - some 16y old kid promoting his first asset-flip game and then abandons it 4 months later - and then try to extrapolate this onto the professional industry of talented people, actually able to work over longer periods of time. But that comparison doesn't work.

 

[Luderos]

There are great tweaks one can do to the contract to motivate the artist. Such as that if the game will be officially abandoned along the way, all the rights of the assets flow back to the artist. Which means he could sell them on 3D marketplaces and use them for new creations that go into his portfolio.

In this case the work wasn't for nothing. Also don't underestimate the skills picked up when working with a bit of pressure and constantly on a project over a couple of months. It's also something to put into your CV, improves your soft skills and so on and so forth.

I on the other hand wonder how many of the people being skeptical about the probabilities here did actually try to find someone? How many job offers did you write at official job boards and websites? In how many forums did you promote your project with that exact business model and looked out for artists? To how many NSFW artists on twitter did you reach out and pitched them your project?

I think people are quick with saying "nah this doesn't work" before they even put in 5% of effort and tried it out.

I mean, fair enough. It's surely possible. I've turned down offers of "free help" from artists, so I know some people are open to it, although also to be fair, they seemed far less eager when I told them that it would likely be a year or more (if ever) until the project actually generated any reasonable amount of money.

That also puts aside the fact that this turns a development task into a management task, which is a giant obstacle in and of itself.

I notice though that you didn't answer whether or not you've ever worked under such an arrangement? Have you ever recruited someone into one? Note I'm not saying "nah this doesn't work" but more that "this way lies dragons... and possibly treasure".

 

[Fuchsschweif]

I mean, fair enough. It's surely possible. I've turned down offers of "free help" from artists, so I know some people are open to it, although also to be fair, they seemed far less eager when I told them that it would likely be a year or more (if ever) until the project actually generated any reasonable amount of money.

That also puts aside the fact that this turns a development task into a management task, which is a giant obstacle in and of itself.

What's reasonable, though? If after 6 months of work the initial release happens and the project may attract 200 people who on average spend $3, that's 600 bucks. If the artist gets a share of 30%, that's 180 extra bucks a month for him already - getting more and more each month as the game and fanbase grows. That's not bad.

Also, those 6 months aren't supposed to be full time work. Even if its a year, maybe 2 hours a day on the side. That's still almost 1000 hours that went into pure animation. Whatever is happening with the project, the 3D artist for sure improved his skills. If you set up the contract as I said and the game gets abandoned, he got nice assets to sell on a 3D marketplace.

Hiring people is also showing them how it would be beneficial for them to be part of your project and offer them appealing conditions.

If all you say is "hey, cool man, but note that it might take over a year before you see any money, if ever", it's no wonder people aren't excited. It sounds like you aren't even excited about the project yourself, nor believe in its potential success. The business part of it requires selling your project, even to your co-workers / employees / freelancers. And by selling I don't mean lying and deceiving of course, but offering actual value that you can point at. As well as exuding confidence in the entire project as its captain.

If you're fun to be around and work with, that's worth a lot already. Artists are passionate about what they're doing, and for the future it's also great to have good contacts. In case one of you makes it, that might open other doors later on, when that person gives the other one a call for bigger projects.

I notice though that you didn't answer whether or not you've ever worked under such an arrangement?

What would this add to the debate? I couldn't get into the details anyways for the sake of staying anonymous.