Gamedevs should work together with 3D artists

[Fuchsschweif]

So in other words you are trying to discredit the posters because you can't argue the factual sources provided.

No, I simply refuse to waste my valuable lifetime disproving your 'arguments' that are entirely fabricated from your imagination and supported by a collection of random links deliberately presented to fit your narrative. You not only miss the entire point but also fail to understand what commission-only wage models are and when they are applicable.

I've linked sourced information, contracts and information from actual artists, your reply to this is "na ah you're a troll" so who is really trolling here?

Unfortunately, that had nothing to do with the commission-only wage model. You purposely shared irrelevant links to deny its existence. Also, you ignored the specific situations where this model is commonly used, comparing it incorrectly to casual artists who are commissioned for individual works which is an entirely different scenario, as pointed out multiple times.

You didn't even manage to explain once why an artist would take a small check and then let the developer get rich with a final product he contributed like at least 50% to. That basically makes both almost partners in terms of workload. That's not a scenario where you choose a buyout, but where you maintain a continuous income stream from every single sale.

That's an option that isn't available to the kind of artists you presented in your links who sell individual artworks. Why would anyone share revenue with you just because you designed two website banners for them? Do you even understand the difference between being commissioned to draw a few pictures and working for several years on a project that culminates in a final product where you've been the one and only designer, fulfilling multiple design roles, including the lead designer? You clearly have no idea what you're even talking about.

As I said, you know so little and your lengthy post is filled with so many false assumptions that it would be tiresome to address all the misinformation. It's simply not worth the effort since you're clearly not here to learn, but rather to - for whatever reason - try to prove that the industry works as you imagine it does.

Just go to the gamedev reddit and you'll find tons of posts where people talk about rev share, and how they split revenue especially when the team size is small and consists of 1-4 people. Many projects wouldn't happen if nobody was willing to do that, as almost no indie developer has enough money to pay upfront for the entire development of the game, including paying one or more employees.

 

[peterppp]

I'm not going to comment on the main topic of the thread.
I think some people have been clear enough about the reality of the market.

However, I did want to comment on this


I haven't played the game but a quick glance at the thread tells me that the animations were made with VAM (Virt-A-Mate).
So if you like this kind of animations, and you think the result is better than what's in other games, you can do the same without any particular knowledge, just a few hours to learn how to use VAM (it's much easier than learning Daz or Blender).

Also, please note that I recognize at least 3 animations (maybe with minor modifications) in the thread's gifs.
They are availabe for free on the VAM hub.

I don't know whether the game's creator made them or whether he borrowed them from their authors (he may be the author, but he's changed his username between the different platforms)
The fact that these animations already existed before the game was created explains why you might think the game's development was relatively fast.

lol so adn700, the nsfw 3d artist he gave as an example uses VAM. nothing wrong with VAM or people who use it, but it was a bad example for what op was originally talking about. op just can't get anything right. denying reality, we're all trolls to him, or so he tries to convince himself but he's not fooling anyone but himself

i wonder what adn700 thinks about all this

 

[morphnet]

No, I simply refuse to waste my valuable lifetime disproving your 'arguments' that are entirely fabricated from your imagination and supported by a collection of random links deliberately presented to fit your narrative. You not only miss the entire point but also fail to understand what commission-only wage models are and when they are applicable.

That's pretty common in the world of freelancers and start-ups. Getting a provision also means that you can have some influence on how much you earn - the better your art draws customers in, the better the revenue, the bigger your share. That's a good motivation.

That's how it goes. People gather together, they all agree to work "for free" in the first 3-6 months, they make contracts on how revenue is split, and then they put in the effort - on the side while earning a living with their main jobs.

The business models I talked about in this thread are common in the professional freelancer industry especially for artists.

It would be much more valuable to just check job boards and also google the business modell I described and see how it plays out largely in the freelancer world.

No, start-ups with zero capital for paying specific positions at the beginning. Hence the comission only based payment method. Google it up.

After doing what you asked and searching on google and also duckduckgo and bing it turns out that all of the major hiring platforms, art hosting and sales platforms and blogs I found had no idea what you were talking about (and neither did the search engines for that matter). You would think if it was sooo common I would have found something...anything....

Also if you don't need random members googling things... why do you keep telling them too

As for " random links deliberately presented to fit your narrative ", those are links that show the ACTUAL common standard.

Unfortunately, that had nothing to do with the commission-only wage model. You purposely shared irrelevant links to deny its existence.

No I searched google like you said and they weren't there... if you have an issue with google not showing results for your made up common to the industry idea take it up with them... or of course you could just provide the links yourself....seeing as how they are so common to the industry....

Also, you ignored the specific situations where this model is commonly used, comparing it incorrectly to casual artists who are commissioned for individual works which is an entirely different scenario, as pointed out multiple times.

Really? The links I provided covered single jobs, long term employment, project work and personal commissions among others, not my fault you don't bother to read them.....

You didn't even manage to explain once why an artist would take a small check and then let the developer get rich with a final product he contributed like at least 50% to. That basically makes both almost partners in terms of workload. That's not a scenario where you choose a buyout, but where you maintain a continuous income stream from every single sale.

Again, if you had bothered to actually read the links I provided you would have seen not only advice for pro and cons given but also mention of personal experiences from artists but ok here is one again and some extra.....

Your claim that they make a small paycheck is also laughably wrong.

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Now lets take your "great idea"

Make 5k a month, give 30% to the artist, that's 1500 extra bucks for him on the side and 3500 for you. For a part-time project that's absolutely fantastic, and 5K is a realistic goal for a good game.

So $1500 a month x 12 = $18000 now let's compare that to the lowest listed in those link $49k-$89k AND you can't even guarantee that $1500 because even the example you gave where the guy is working on 3 games didn't reach $5k.

So would you still like me to (in detail) explain to you why the artist would take their small normal check over a gamble of a project and a gamble of a paycheck?

That's an option that isn't available to the kind of artists you presented in your links who sell individual artworks. Why would anyone share revenue with you just because you designed two website banners for them? You clearly have no idea what you're even talking about.

The links I provided were for digital art and freelance digital artists, are you saying digital artists DON'T work on games....

Also

Those links were for industry standards, you are the one claiming dev's can get a skilled experienced artist for MAYBE $1500 a month i.e. $18k a year, you are the one who clearly does NOT know what they are talking about or anything about the industry or gaming making for that matter....

As I said, you know so little and your lengthy post is filled with so many false assumptions that it would be tiresome to address all the misinformation.

Those are not my assumptions, those are facts from professional sites and other artists.

It's simply not worth the effort since you're clearly not here to learn, but rather to - for whatever reason - try to prove that the industry works as you imagine it does.

Why would anyone come into this thread to learn from you? You offer no sources, no information to back up your clearly wild and unresearched claims, you clearly don't have a grasp of the reality of making games with your "oh just work 2 hours here and there" ideas or " oh $5k is a realistic goal for a NSFW game" You don't even know the average salary of a freelance digital artist even though you claim to be in the industry for 9 years and know everything else about them....

Also I'm not trying to prove how the industry works, I'm letting the industry talk for itself... hence the links and sources....

 

[Dryme]

The flood of games with mediocre and even bad sex scenes won't stop. Some games have so much potential and are great storywise, but you don't really feel rewarded after finally getting that one babe laid, if the entire sex scene is just a huge letdown.

In my guide about setting up sex scenes the side-to-side comparisons between NSFW game devs and actual 3D artists (later down in the "pov" bonus section) shows how many galaxies both are apart from each other.

Just a quick example from the guide:

View attachment 3748293

View attachment 3748295


Needless to tell you who's the 3D artist.

Getting back to the thread's topic, I think many game devs would actually benefit a t o n by working together with an NSFW 3D artist. Not only would the development time of the game speed up like insane - the game developer could focus on the technical aspects and the writing instead of bothering with stuff he isn't good at -, but the game would also be just a triple A experience in terms of sex scenes. Which, in theory, can even make up for not the best writing and gameplay mechanics.

What does that mean? That means more people who subscribe and buy the game, which equals to more money, a bigger fanbase and resources for the next project. It would be common to share revenue with the artist and cut him some provision of the overall sales. This way even developers without any budget could work with 3D artists right from the beginning.

Imagine all the good games out there would have this fantastically looking animations. A dream!

And as one person said recently, they will all quarrel on the first day

 

[moskyx]

I mean... OP does have a point. But for it to work, the first step is not 'work with a 3d artist', but 'get your shit together and try to go big'. And that means acting like a pro from the very start. If you take this endeavor like an actual job, you can try your luck at convincing an artist to join your project under OP's premise. But you need proper planning, contracts, and so on - which is far away for ordinary wannabe devs around here. There are, however, successful examples of devs who managed to build a small studio like this. The 'Love of Magic' dev may be one of those.

If all you have is a barebones idea, you can only aim at hiring artists on commission. But if you have a proper plan, a script almost entirely written or at least clearly designed, and you offer some legal contract showing you know what you're doing, you may find someone interested in joining that project.

 

[shabadu]

What would this add to the debate? I couldn't get into the details anyways for the sake of staying anonymous.

Lol so no, you, an artist with almost a decade of experience, have never entered into such an agreement yourself, but you expect a bunch of hobbyist devs to easily find plenty of them able and willing to do so?

How about this, with all of your years in the industry, how many artists have you known to enter into a rev-share employment contract with no guarantees of pay and the possibility of starting 6+ months without a single cent being generated in revenue? How many have been successful? How many have regretted or otherwise been soured on the experience?

 

[Fuchsschweif]

After doing what you asked and searching on google and also duckduckgo and bing it turns out that all of the major hiring platforms, art hosting and sales platforms and blogs I found had no idea what you were talking about (and neither did the search engines for that matter). You would think if it was sooo common I would have found something...anything....

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But hey, I guess if you can't find it, it doesn't exist.

Also if you don't need random members googling things... why do you keep telling them too

I said educate yourself, not collect links to fuel your confirmation bias and then come back to mislead others into believing you would actually know how the industry works. For someone who just had to Google things due to a lack of personal experience, you're presenting your opinion far too confidently.

Now you wasted even more of my time because I had to disprove the false claims you made.

I won't bother with the rest of your post, as I spotted numerous other mistakes and logical fallacies that aren't worth going through.

You should just stop trying to educate others about fields you clearly have no experience in. You may ask for clarifications, you may express that this model wouldn't be something for you personally, but please stop spreading nonsense about alleged 'misinformation' just because you're unfamiliar with the topic.

 

[dodongamagnifico]

Probelm is, finding a committed and competent partner, especially a 3D artist, is extremely difficult and expensive. Why would someone with such skills bother working on someone else's small side project?

 

[Fuchsschweif]

Probelm is, finding a committed and competent partner, especially a 3D artist, is extremely difficult and expensive. Why would someone with such skills bother working on someone else's small side project?

The problem lies in the way you ask the question. You describe the artist as someone with "such skills" while you call the game "someone else's small side project".

Maybe the 3D artist is good, but not overqualified. Maybe the game is an actual fun and promising project and not just someone's little side project, and the game developer is skilled too because he already finished a couple of hobby projects.

So they meet in the middle, their skillsets match and both benefit from the working experience and the income stream. There are also many 3D artists who are interested in working on actual games or larger projects and don't want to just create one isolated loop after another.

And don't forget about this often overlooked aspect:

If you look at higher leagues, many people simply work together, they perform well and they split the bigger rewards.

Artists who've been long enough in their industry know that just being an artist doing pretty things won't cut it. They realized they also have to be businesspeople and salespersons. That they have to put themselves out there, negotiate contracts, socialize, and network.

Working together will also potentially open doors in the future. People tend to call other people they already worked with and had a positive experience with. You might work with someone who becomes really big five years after you finished your cooperative work, and they remember you and give you a call for their next big thing. Or you're the one who got big five years after and call them, because you know they're a good partner to work with. That's how it usually goes in the world of artists and freelancers.

It's not the triple A projects knocking on your door out of the blue (very rarely), but the people you've worked with.

 

[dodongamagnifico]

The problem lies in the way you ask the question. You describe the artist as someone with "such skills" while you call the game "someone else's small side project".

Maybe the 3D artist is good, but not overqualified. Maybe the game is an actual fun and promising project and not just someone's little side project, and the game developer is skilled too because he already finished a couple of hobby projects.

So they meet in the middle, their skillsets match and both benefit from the working experience and the income stream. There are also many 3D artists who are interested in working on actual games or larger projects and don't want to just create one isolated loop after another.

And don't forget about this often overlooked aspect:

Most games on this site are just side projects. And those that aren't, I'm sure they already have a dedicated artist, competent or not.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

And those that aren't, I'm sure they already have a dedicated artist, competent or not.

You usually don't want to team up mid-development anyways, that happens before a new project is launched so that you can start together.

 

[shabadu]

I saw the notification that you quoted me, Fuchsschweif, but for some reason there's nothing in either of your posts. Gee, I wonder why you don't want to specifically address that topic.

I work in other fields of the non-nsfw media industry as an artist (not visuals) and yes, I would be willing to do that if the project looks promising and fun to me.

(...)

I also have personal insights into my industry (digital media, as stated earlier) and know that comission based pay is one of the common ways to pay freelancers. From little indie projects up to large triple A budget projects.

(...)

Yes, they are. Stop spreading misinformation. You don't need to offer me links, as I work in the digital media industry and have been talking with people from the industry regularly for the past 9 years. Like I said, this option is only available for positions that contribute an unique and significant part of a product's final identity.

(...)

Like I said, I've been in the industry for almost a decade now, so I don't need a random user Googling things, trying to prove the real world wrong based on what they think it looks like after spending one evening on Google.

...

What would this add to the debate? I couldn't get into the details anyways for the sake of staying anonymous.

I find it extremely telling that you have no problem whatsoever with using your time and experience in the industry as a way to dismiss criticism, but as soon as it comes to your personal experience working under this business model it becomes 'this adds nothing to the discussion.' Either your personal experiences count or they don't, you can't just pick and choose based on if they serve your narrative.

Also, nobody was asking you for the specific details. It's very hard to believe that a simple yes or no to something you claim is so widespread can be used to identify you.

 

[dodongamagnifico]

You usually don't want to team up mid-development anyways, that happens before a new project is launched so that you can start together.

So to whom is this whole thread targeted towards?

 

[Fuchsschweif]

I find it extremely telling that you have no problem whatsoever with using your time and experience in the industry as a way to dismiss criticism, but as soon as it comes to your personal experience working under this business model it becomes 'this adds nothing to the discussion.' Either your personal experiences count or they don't, you can't just pick and choose based on if they serve your narrative.

You confuse experience in an industry with personal projects.

My personal experience is based on working and being in the industry. Like I stated earlier this concludes not only working with other people, but also being in an constant exchange with them. I'm in contact with people who program, who do 3D art, who do 2D art, who compose music, who film movies, do graphic design, product design, corporate branding and so on - the entire branch of the creative industry. And we do of course talk and constantly keep educating ourselves about projects, jobs, payments, income sources, business and surviving as freelancers. That's mandatory in this field.

If you believe the knowledge someone gathers over a decade in the creative industry comes from personal projects only, then you know very little.

In order to understand the industry it's more of importance to have these insights, rather than having it done once or twice by yourself but no network to see how it largely plays out for others, and under which projects and arrangements artists receive what conditions. That's the difference between actually understanding the opportunities for artists and freelancers in the industry and some personal stories without much value, because nobody knows how likely they're reproducible.

So as you can see, the answer couldn't add anything that the big picture hasn't already revealed.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

So to whom is this whole thread targeted towards?

Anyone who's about to start the development of a game in the future. Which aren't only newbies but also successful developers who finished their recent solo project.

 

[GNVE]

Anyone who's about to start the development of a game in the future. Which aren't only newbies but also successful developers who finished their recent solo project.

This would be terrible advice for newbie devs. From what I've seen and how I was myself most know barely don't know how to code. Base advice is get one or two small projects under your belt before anything else. They should not engage in any agreement when they don't even know if they like game making.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

This would be terrible advice for newbie devs. From what I've seen and how I was myself most know barely don't know how to code. Base advice is get one or two small projects under your belt before anything else. They should not engage in any agreement when they don't even know if they like game making.

Newbie doesn't mean they have zero experience. Newbie means it's their first bigger and somewhat professional NSFW project with Patreon. They will, of course, already possess some skills and have completed multiple hobby projects.

I don't know what kind of projects you're following on this website, but I naturally aren't even considering people with 0 coding experience as "game developers".

People with enough experience to create a functioning game and make animations, even if they are low to mid-tier, can still team up and grow together. They just need to match their skill levels.

 

[shabadu]

You confuse experience in an industry with personal projects.

I didn't confuse anything, and I never mentioned anything about personal projects.

Let me rephrase. I am saying that you can't use your own personal experience in the industry as a way to dismiss criticism, and then claim a question about your personal experience in the industry working under this payment structure is not relevant. Either the entirety of your personal experience in the industry matters to this conversation or it doesn't.

My personal experience is based on working and being in the industry. Like I stated earlier this concludes not only working with other people, but also being in an constant exchange with them. I'm in contact with people who program, who do 3D art, who do 2D art, who compose music, who film movies, do graphic design, product design, corporate branding and so on - the entire branch of the creative industry. And we do of course talk and constantly keep educating ourselves about projects, jobs, payments, income sources, business and surviving as freelancers. That's mandatory in this field.

Awesome. So, to reiterate my first question, how many of these artist that you are in constant contact with have actually performed work under a revenue sharing model? And of those, if any, how many have had positive outcomes? How many have had negative outcomes?

So no, I never said my experience suddenly doesn't count. You're just trying to move the goalpost so that it suits your narrative.

Nice try, but you would have had to actually answer my questions first for me to shift any goals.

 

[GNVE]

Newbie doesn't mean they have zero experience. Newbie means it's their first bigger and somewhat professional NSFW project with Patreon. They will, of course, already possess some skills and have completed multiple hobby projects.

I don't know what kind of projects you're following on this website, but I naturally aren't even considering people with 0 coding experience as "game developers".

People with enough experience to create a functioning game and make animations, even if they are low to mid-tier, can still team up and grow together. They just need to match their skill levels.

I just spend a little while in the various dev sections of this website. Entry level/newbie dev on this website means 0 experience.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

I didn't confuse anything, and I never mentioned anything about personal projects.

Let me rephrase. I am saying that you can't use your own personal experience in the industry as a way to dismiss criticism, and then claim a question about your personal experience in the industry working under this payment structure is not relevant.

You just confused it again. You literally just repeated the same mistake and mixed up "experience in the industry" with "working under this payment structure by oneself".

Either the entirety of your personal experience in the industry matters to this conversation or it doesn't.

Uhm, no. If you talk with a professional footballer who has been with different clubs over a decade, spoken with many of his teammates about their contracts and conditions, and observed how things played out for them, it doesn't matter whether he has personally tried all the different contracts to understand what players from various leagues and experiences are being offered and under what circumstances this happens.

Awesome. So, to reiterate my first question, how many of these artist that you are in constant contact with have actually performed work under a revenue sharing model? And of those, if any, how many have had positive outcomes? How many have had negative outcomes?

Passive income is generally a positive outcome. I know of people who are still making money from comissions they earn from projects they finished working on 10 years ago. I myself am also making money from products I finished many years ago, although those are my own.

The only negative outcome is if the project won't get released and therefore there are no comissions to be paid. People are aware of this risk before they agree to a rev share only model. That being said, it's not uncommon for artists across all disciplines to run after their money even with other types of contracts, and there isn't really any union to protect them from that, as you'd expect from other jobs.

It even happens with bigger clients that a payment might be delayed by a couple of months and communication with the person responsible doesn't lead anywhere. Good luck trying to sue them from the money you don't have while burning bridges.

Some artists work 1-2 years on a project and they get paid - often just 50% upfront -, but the license holder decides last minute not to release the project for various reasons. Now what really sucks for the artist is, that those 1-2 years went to waste. Yes, he got paid, but nobody will see/hear his work, and he can't put it into his portfolio, because with the payment often comes a transfer of rights to the intellectual property.

For an artist that's basically almost the same as having been unemployed for 1-2 years, because it did nothing for their career to showcase. Whereas if they didn't get paid and a project on a comission only base gets canceled before the release, the rights on the assets remain on their side. And assets always offer value, some in different ways.

So don't get fooled by the impression that direct pay contracts automatically are risk-free for artists - they aren't.

In our specific case, 3D animations and assets for NSFW games, the assets have an immense value as you can sell them on stores/marketplaces with high demand and zero reproduction costs. So 3D animators have it a bit better than other disciplines that can't directly sell their assets, or can, but not on a market with such a high demand.