Gamedevs should work together with 3D artists

[Luderos]

If all you say is "hey, cool man, but note that it might take over a year before you see any money", it's no wonder people aren't excited.

What would this add to the debate? I couldn't get into the details anyways for the sake of staying anonymous.

In my specific case, I wasn't trying to recruit, but even if I were, I wouldn't want someone to go to work for me with unrealistic expectations. If they wouldn't be eager to work under what I would consider realistic expectations, then I wouldn't want them to work for me any more than they would want to.

And your experience may not add anything, but when you're saying this:

I on the other hand wonder how many of the people being skeptical about the probabilities here did actually try to find someone? How many job offers did you write at official job boards and websites? In how many forums did you promote your project with that exact business model and looked out for artists? To how many NSFW artists on twitter did you reach out and pitched them your project?

I think people are quick with saying "nah this doesn't work" before they even put in 5% of effort and tried it out.

I think it's fair to ask if you've actually done what you're encouraging others to do.

It's like saying:
"Here's this great plan that everyone should be doing! I haven't done it myself, but it's fantastic! Trust me!"

 

[Fuchsschweif]

I think it's fair to ask if you've actually done what you're encouraging others to do.

It's like saying:
"Here's this great plan that everyone should be doing! I haven't done it myself, but it's fantastic! Trust me!"

It would be much more valuable to just check job boards and also google the business modell I described and see how it plays out largely in the freelancer world. That's much more relevant than a single person's experience.

There are tons of great articles from sites directed at startups, at freelancers and from general job sites like linkedin who go more into detail of the different payment methods, including comission only based plans. It should also be possible to find forum threads where people talk from personal experience about comission based work.

I also have personal insights into my industry (digital media, as stated earlier) and know that comission based pay is one of the common ways to pay freelancers. From little indie projects up to large triple A budget projects.

Of course, this is only true for positions that contribute a very unique and significant part to the identity of the finished project, not for every artistic task that's required. But that's pretty much what a 3D artist is to an NSFW game.

 

[GNVE]

It seems this debate is based on the "Oh my God see these three Diamonds? It's easy to get rich!" Ignoring the tons of ore that need to be delved to get those three diamonds.

In any form of art there are many more that fail then succeed. Even very talented people need some if not a lot of luck to rise to the top. For every game, movie, painting, book, play, music or whatever that succeeds dozens, hundreds or maybe even thousands do not. If you want to look at earnings look at the bottom of the pyramid not (just) the top.

I also think that for some/a lot of dev's it is not very attractive to get a team on board. It creates pressure. You may feel more pressure to deliver your side of things so they can keep on top of their work. To deliver a quality that you don't feel for a hobby project etc. Having another person working on your game can do a lot of things mentally.

Then there is the issue of working for nothing for months. Yeah if you are in a part of your life where your upkeep is minimal it might be doable but other people have bills to pay and can't just invest 6 months in the hope it will pay off eventually. I certainly can't.

For me personally there is another thing. If I hire someone I want to pay them a decent wage. I value their time and skill. I do not want them to invest a lot of time and money into something that may not pay out. For that I would ask all copyrights to their artwork (work for hire) which not all artists are willing to do. For me it is just protecting my investment. Even if we work perfectly together they might get hit by a bus tomorrow and I have to deal with the heirs who might see me as an easy way to make easy money if I don't own the copyright.

 

[morphnet]

You should check it better. As you can see, his Patreon really started growing since this project is up. He almost doubled his paying members since then. The main chunk came with the latest updates of the linked game.

Actually that is not true, if you are going to try sell your idea you should at least be honest and up front about the details you are sharing as well as the examples you are giving.

The example you gave, Adn700-NSFW, is actually working on 2 games and a 3rd is on-hold. He did NOT double his paying members and he is actually making less now than he did at the start of that game / just before it. In march 2022 he had 673 paying members and made $4017 as of now he has 1040 paying members and is making $3563, so he gained 383 members and is making $454 less.



At his highest point, he only made $4363 and as you can clearly see from the graph it has been a lot of up's and down's.



You made the statement....

Make 5k a month, give 30% to the artist, that's 1500 extra bucks for him on the side and 3500 for you. For a part-time project that's absolutely fantastic, and 5K is a realistic goal for a good game.

...but even your example goes against what you are saying. Your idea of a good game doesn't even reach $5k.

5k isn't super rare (check Patreon NSFW top lists), especially not for those putting in effort and standing out from the masses with great visuals.

Actually it is rare, considering the 1000's of games out and many of them not 3D, if you look at the list there are only a handful of 3D games making over 5k.

That's also how it goes when start-ups search for people who want to build something from the ground on job searching websites. Especially in coding-related fields like games or apps.

Start-ups start with capital and investors, they don't hire people and tell them they will get paid part of the profits IF the product does well....

Tesla gives out company stocks to its employees, because it motivates them to work better. The better the company performs, the more everyone gets.

Actually they stopped doing that and now plan to only offer it to high performers. So if Tesla is having a hard time doing it.....

The business models I talked about in this thread are common in the professional freelancer industry especially for artists.

No they are not, there are 3 common models.

per item / image / render
per hour rate
or flat fee per week / month

commissions are exceptions and can be billed per package, per item/image/render or per hour and sometimes flat fee.

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Those are just some examples but feel free to double check other sites but the standard is per item or per hour or flat fee.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve things but misleading people and sharing clearly false information to back up an idea you clearly put 0% research into IS wrong.

 

[Living In A Lewd World]

Actually that is not true, if you are going to try sell your idea you should at least be honest and up front about the details you are sharing as well as the examples you are giving.

The example you gave, Adn700-NSFW, is actually working on 2 games and a 3rd is on-hold. He did NOT double his paying members and he is actually making less now than he did at the start of that game / just before it. In march 2022 he had 673 paying members and made $4017 as of now he has 1040 paying members and is making $3563, so he gained 383 members and is making $454 less.

View attachment 3751111

At his highest point, he only made $4363 and as you can clearly see from the graph it has been a lot of up's and down's.

View attachment 3751268

You made the statement....



...but even your example goes against what you are saying. Your idea of a good game doesn't even reach $5k.



Actually it is rare, considering the 1000's of games out and many of them not 3D, if you look at the list there are only a handful of 3D games making over 5k.



Start-ups start with capital and investors, they don't hire people and tell them they will get paid part of the profits IF the product does well....



Actually they stopped doing that and now plan to only offer it to high performers. So if Tesla is having a hard time doing it.....



No they are not, there are 3 common models.

per item / image / render
per hour rate
or flat fee per week / month

commissions are exceptions and can be billed per package, per item/image/render or per hour and sometimes flat fee.

You must be registered to see the links

You must be registered to see the links

Those are just some examples but feel free to double check other sites but the standard is per item or per hour or flat fee.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve things but misleading people and sharing clearly false information to back up an idea you clearly put 0% research into IS wrong.

The chart you show can unfortunately not be interpreted this way, as the dev stopped to publish his gainings in mid 2022. Those 3.5k Dollars are actually the last time, when earnings for him are shown, not what he currently earns. He is probably one of the few who can at least make a living with it.

 

[peterppp]

You should check it better. As you can see, his Patreon really started growing since this project is up. He almost doubled his paying members since then. The main chunk came with the latest updates of the linked game.

you're either dishonest or have a memory problem. here is what you said about his patreon numbers:

The game has been in development for not even 2 years, and the dev already has 1.054 paying subcribers on Patreon alone.

you are implicating that the 1054 patrons are due to the game, which is what i addressed. instead of admitting you were wrong, you now backtrack and change what you said to something i didn't address.

furthermore, his patrons have increased from about 700 to about 1060 since the game was first released. that's about 50% more, not double. and you can't say that increase is because of this game because the dev has a lot of other things, including other games, on his patreon besides this game. but you didn't know because you didn't check your example.

his patrons even decreased for almost a year after the game was first released, yet you can somehow magically divine that all the subsequence increase is from that game.

you made a bad example that doesn't back up what you said. you could just admit it, drop it, or make an even bigger fool out of yourself. your choice.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

The example you gave, Adn700-NSFW, is actually working on 2 games and a 3rd is on-hold. He did NOT double his paying members and he is actually making less now than he did at the start of that game / just before it. In march 2022 he had 673 paying members and made $4017 as of now he has 1040 paying members and is making $3563, so he gained 383 members and is making $454 less.

Your numbers don't add up with the screens you provided. Earnings per month aren't shown in detail since nov 2022, so its pointless that you look at numbers from 2022 and act as if that was the current state.

What's shown is the estimated revenue of currently 2-7k. If you take the median, that's an estimated revenue of $4500 right now.

furthermore, his patrons have increased from about 700 to about 1060 since the game was first released. that's about 50% more, not double.

That's incorrect. This was in the month before the current game launched:




Currently, he has 1,060 paid members plus 23 that decided to roll with Boosty, totaling 1,083 paid members. Doubling the initial amount would be 1,114, so he's only 31 subscribers away from doubling his subscriber count.

you made a bad example that doesn't back up what you said. you could just admit it, drop it, or make an even bigger fool out of yourself. your choice.

Yeah dawg, that's a bold thing to say if you aren't even capable of looking up simple numbers and launch dates. Next time, try not to make a fool of yourself instead by double-checking before you hit enter. You just wasted everyone's time and especially mine.

...but even your example goes against what you are saying. Your idea of a good game doesn't even reach $5k.

This wasn't an example for the 5k, it was an example for how quickly a game can become popular and drive some serious money if the animations are standing out.

Actually it is rare, considering the 1000's of games out and many of them not 3D, if you look at the list there are only a handful of 3D games making over 5k.

That's not how you analyze statistics. You don't just mindlessly throw in everything you can find. If you have a set of data, you need to clean it up according to the questions asked. The question of this thread isn't about how many 16-year-olds promote their project before even starting and abandon it after 5 weeks. It's about the potential of high-quality NSFW games with standout animations.

So of course the only correct way to do it is by looking at the games providing that.

Start-ups start with capital and investors, they don't hire people and tell them they will get paid part of the profits IF the product does well....

No, start-ups with zero capital for paying specific positions at the beginning. Hence the comission only based payment method. Google it up.

No they are not, there are 3 common models.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve things but misleading people and sharing clearly false information to back up an idea you clearly put 0% research into IS wrong.

Yes, they are. Stop spreading misinformation. You don't need to offer me links, as I work in the digital media industry and have been talking with people from the industry regularly for the past 9 years. Like I said, this option is only available for positions that contribute an unique and significant part of a product's final identity.

That would be the case if the team size is small and one 3D artist is doing the entire visuals for the game. You're mistakenly comparing that with someone comissioning a few artworks on the side. Those are completely different scenarios.

And the fact that you could pay an 3D artist upfront if you had the money to do so, doesn't mean you can't arrange the comission only model. It depends on the goals of both sides. Having a NSFW game developer with zero capital in this scenario, comission only is the way to go.

 

[peterppp]

That's incorrect. He did almost double his subscribers since his current game that I linked launched. This was in the month before the current game launched:

View attachment 3751956

This is peak from April with the current game:

View attachment 3751958

you're either being dishonest again or you just dont know better. now you're suddenly using another graph (the left) than the first one you referred to. you're also now conveniently choosing the highest point (april) where previously you chose the current month which is lower, and more relevant since you can't live off old earnings.
so using the last month (may) on the left graph, paid members are 928. 557/928 is 60%. far from double. far from almost double. you could just admit it isn't almost double, but apparently you like looking like a fool.

Edit: i see you managed to make an even bigger fool out of yourself, updating your post while i was answering. so now you're only showing the left dec 2022 graph with 557 patrons. you removed the april 2024 with 983 patrons. instead you go for the current even higher number of 1060 from the right graph. if you were honest/knew how read the graphs, you should have used the june 1 value which is 928 (which is the may value in the left) when comparing to the left. so again, 557/928 = 60%

yeah, those 23 subscribers on boosty really makes up for all your errors. sure buddy

 

[Fuchsschweif]

you're either being dishonest again or you just dont know better. now you're suddenly using another graph (the left) than the first one you referred to.

I'm using the exact same set of data all the time. Stop making up stuff just because you don't want to admit that you didn't properly look up when the game launched and made a fool of yourself, when you claimed that he had 700 subscribers at launch:

his patrons have increased from about 700 to about 1060 since the game was first released

It launched in December 2022 and he had 557 subscribers at that point.

you're also now conveniently choosing the highest point (april) where previously you chose the current month which is lower

The current month holds 1060 subscribers which is higher than April. But we've already sorted out that you're not good with numbers.

Ironically, you even posted the current 1060 yourself previously:

to about 1060

...yet you're trying to pick a smaller number now (928) and act as if it were the current subscriber count, so that you don't have to admit you were wrong.

So much for "being either dishonest or having a memory problem". You seem to project your own behaviour a lot.

557/928 = 60%

557/1083 (1060 Patreon + 23 Boosty) = 94.44% = almost doubled.

And now, please stop derailing the thread. This thread is about game developers and the possibilities that arise when they team up with talented 3D artists, not about explaining to you how to properly research a release date or subscriber count.

 

[peterppp]

I'm using the exact same set of data all the time. Stop making up stuff just because you don't want to admit that you didn't properly look up when the game launched and made a fool of yourself, when you claimed that he had 700 subscribers at launch:



It launched in December 2022 and he had 557 subscribers at that point.

View attachment 3752081



The current month holds 1060 subscribers which is higher than April. But we've already sorted out that you're not good with numbers.

Ironically, you even posted the current 1060 yourself previously:



...yet you're trying to pick a smaller number now (928) and act as if it were the current subscriber count, so that you don't have to admit you were wrong.

So much for "being either dishonest or having a memory problem". You seem to project your own behaviour a lot.



557/1083 (1060 Patreon + 23 Boosty) = 94.44% = almost doubled.

And now, please stop derailing the thread. This thread is about game developers and the possibilities that arise when they team up with talented 3D artists, not about explaining to you how to properly research a release date or subscriber count.

learn to read graphs because you're embarrasing yourself. you can't cherry pick numbers from the left and right graphs when the graphs are different! i'm gonna try to explain this that even you understand...probably you won't but for everyone else, so for the graphs in this link:

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... here is how it works.

left graph shows the paid patrons for the month counted on the 1st of the FOLLOWING month.
right graph shows the paid patrons CURRENTLY for that month.
which means that MAY patrons on the left graph corresponds to JUNE 1 on the right graph.

so for april 2024, the left graph shows this:

this is calculated on the 1st of MAY, which we can see when we look at may 1 in the right graph:

left graph: 983, right graph: 983

lets do the same for the next month. so for may in the left graph:

and this is the same as JUNE 1 in the right graph:

928 and 928. and you can do this for all months.

now, his patreon, as many patreons, has a big drop on the 1st when every patreon who has cancelled are removed and so on. so the paid patrons on the left graph will always be the lowest of the month while the right graph will show additional patrons added during the (following) month, so that number will rise and be the highest towards the end.

you can't take the left number (lowest of the month) and compare it to the right (highest) and think that is a correct comparison. either you pick the left or right.

Ironically, you even posted the current 1060 yourself previously:

yes, i said "his patrons have increased from about 700 to about 1060 since the game was first released" because what you did initially was to use the right/current number, for today, 1060 (not updated on graphtreon yet). which is why i as a response also used the right graph as a basis for the patrons when his game launched. i don't know the exact date, but going for 29 dec 2022 which is when the game was added to f95, we can see what the right graph says. we can't see dec 29 but dec 26:

and look: 713. 1060/713 is a 48,7% increase. (i made a slip earlier and calculated 557/928=60% when it should be 928/557=66.6%. close enough. i can admit my mistakes.)

but this doesn't really matter because even if we would accept your erroneous use of the graphs and false claim of "almost double increase", you can't know how much of this is from the game since the dev has several other games and things released during this same time period. look at the graph above ffs. the patrons are going down after the launch of the game.
but even if we assume all the later increase is because of this game, it still is far from a 5k increase which is a number you mentioned.

you're a fool and i'm not gonna waste more time educating you.

 

[papel]

As someone working on a game and doing everything on it:

* I don't have the money to pay for an actual artist, so I make do with my own stuff;
* For people using 3D renders, if they can render it themselves, it's trivial for them to learn how to create better shots;

As has been stated out before, without an actual contract, making the development a "real work project", anyone involved can just up and leave without a word for no reason. Artists can find their main programmers suddenly disappearing just as programmers can see the artists giving up. It's easy to find, among the sea of Abandoned games, ones that were abandoned because the main person behind it couldn't pay artists, or just gave up on the game for whatever reasons.

"Share the earnings" isn't an option unless:
* you're actually earning some money from the project;
* have a number of successful projects to show that you're serious;
* you're convincing someone you've known for a while, thus there is some trust between you;
Otherwise, it's the same thing as "paying with exposition", only worse, because it's unlikely they'll be able to show that stuff on their "real" portfolio.
You can probably get a naive person once, but there's a good chance that, if you fail to generate money (which is more likely than finding success), you'll get known as "that non paying asshole".

In my case, an artist would've been paid a flat zero thus far. Even if I monetized my game somehow, I doubt I'd have earned more than 100 dollars by now. Not only that, I took 7 months between the last update and the current one, in that meantime a hired artist could get too busy with something else, decide he doesn't want to do smut anymore, etc.

One notable example is Breeding Season. Despite reaching a point where it was raking in 42k a month, that game went nowhere. One of the artists ditched

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with the art he made. And that was back in 2016. Cloud Meadow only fully released around 2020 from what I can gather.

TLDR Developing games in a (semi)professional manner is expensive and much harder than doing it as a hobby

 

[tanstaafl]

As has been stated out before, without an actual contract, making the development a "real work project", anyone involved can just up and leave without a word for no reason. Artists can find their main programmers suddenly disappearing just as programmers can see the artists giving up.

This is basically the crux of the entire issue from the first post to now. Anyone going into a work venture without a contract is just asking to get screwed over in some way, but how do you ask someone to sign a contract for what is basically a hobby project? Well, you just do. Or you do it yourself and accept that the product will be lesser than if you paid someone contractually to do it. That or you really shell out the bucks to commission everything.

(It is kind of funny that all three pages of this post so far are basically related to paragraph I just typed.)

 

[morphnet]

Your numbers don't add up with the screens you provided. Earnings per month aren't shown in detail since nov 2022, so its pointless that you look at numbers from 2022 and act as if that was the current state.

What's shown is the estimated revenue of currently 2-7k. If you take the median, that's an estimated revenue of $4500 right now.

How hard would it have been for you to open the page and look for yourself? However just like the rest of your information you choose not to put any effort or research in and make false claims and statements.

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The timeline in my first post was ALL so people reading the thread could get a clear picture and you and Living In A Lewd World are correct it doesn't show after nov 2022 but it does show that the 5k you claim is a realistic goal to reach is not realistic even with 3 games and side projects.

This wasn't an example for the 5k, it was an example for how quickly a game can become popular and drive some serious money if the animations are standing out.

Except it's NOT a game, it's 3 games, 2 active and one paused plus side projects. It wasn't quick, he built up his reputation and some supporter before hand AND that serious money you are talking about had a lot of up's and down's and never reached the 5k you claimed was a realistic goal to reach.

That's not how you analyze statistics. You don't just mindlessly throw in everything you can find. If you have a set of data, you need to clean it up according to the questions asked. The question of this thread isn't about how many 16-year-olds promote their project before even starting and abandon it after 5 weeks. It's about the potential of high-quality NSFW games with standout animations.

That is NOT your argument or your point, your argument AND point was the reason so many games do badly is because they don't have good 3D artists.

The flood of games with mediocre and even bad sex scenes won't stop. Some games have so much potential and are great storywise, but you don't really feel rewarded after finally getting that one babe laid, if the entire sex scene is just a huge letdown.

Getting back to the thread's topic, I think many game devs would actually benefit a t o n by working together with an NSFW 3D artist.

You made the comparison first by saying, following your idea would make a game out perform the other (in your opinion) bad games. Comparing all games would then be fair because there are games that (in your opinion) are bad but out perform games (in your opinion) that are good and that even among the games that (in your opinion) are good reaching 5k is rare.

No, start-ups with zero capital for paying specific positions at the beginning. Hence the comission only based payment method. Google it up.

Firstly that is NOT what you said but ok so you are NOT talking about

That's also how it goes when start-ups search for people who want to build something from the ground on job searching websites. Especially in coding-related fields like games or apps.

but ONLY start-up's with zero capital, that narrows the field a lot but does NOT change the facts.

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1. 77% of small businesses rely on personal savings for their initial funds.
2. A third of small businesses start with less than $5,000.
3. The average small business requires about $10,000 of startup capital.
4. Only 0.05% of startups raise venture capital.
5. The average seed round is $2.2 million.
6. The median company running a seed funding round is 3 years old.
7. Of startups that raised seed rounds, 1% reached unicorn status of $1B+ valuation.
8. Startups with two co-founders rather than one raise 30% more capital.

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• Startups take 3-4 years to be profitable, on average.
• Only 40% of startups actually turn a profit.
• The United States has 63,703 startups across the country, as of 2021.
• About 90% of startups fail. 10% of startups fail within the first year.
• The average small business requires about $10,000 of startup capital. However, only 0.05% of startups raise venture capital.
• 44% of startups fail because they run out of cash.

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Also I did search it, here is what I found....

Duckduckgo search : creating a indie start up with zero capital

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Google search : creating a indie start up with zero capital

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and when I search duckduck and google for "startup with zero capital hiring on commission based" I was given a ton of results about which business types would work with 0 capital and a ton of commission based jobs, strangely enough NONE mentioned artists or 3D artists.

e.g.

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Yes, they are. Stop spreading misinformation. You don't need to offer me links, as I work in the digital media industry and have been talking with people from the industry regularly for the past 9 years. Like I said, this option is only available for positions that contribute an unique and significant part of a product's final identity.

No they are NOT, you can word it however you like, "this option is only available for positions that contribute an unique and significant part of a product's final identity." but the truth is they are NOT common in standard industry practices and less so in start up indie projects. The only one spreading misinformation here is you.

I offer sources, you offer your word and so far your word has fallen short on each point. You would think if it IS as common as you claim and with your 9 years you would have at least 1 source available?

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The Pricing Model
As we’ve just mentioned, if you’re looking for a digital artist for hire, then you’ll need to take into account the type of pricing model the artist uses. That’s because, for digital art, there are barely any consumables like paint and canvas to include in the pricing structure, so some artists will charge a flat fee per piece, while others will use an hourly rate. If your chosen artist uses a flat-fee pricing model, be sure to check that you are able to make a certain number of revisions within that fee, as there are likely to be a few things you’ll want to be adjusted before the final piece is delivered.

If they use a per-hour pricing model, then ask for both a low-end and high-end estimate on how long they think the project will, so you’ll have a good idea of what your final cost is likely to be

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And the fact that you could pay an 3D artist upfront if you had the money to do so, doesn't mean you can't arrange the comission only model. It depends on the goals of both sides. Having a NSFW game developer with zero capital in this scenario, comission only is the way to go.

It's not a commission model, it's a POTENTIAL commission model relying on MANY factors and expecting hundreds or even thousands of hours of work with a very small chance that there will be enough money to pay for it. Not only does the game have to end up being successful enough to pay the artist BUT it needs to be successful enough to pay the artist competitive rates.

So far your success ratio assumptions do NOT match real world results
Your math for earnings do NOT match real world results
Your "common industry standards" are NOT industry standards
Your math for time investment does NOT match professional recommendations or real world results

Basically your entire idea is based on IF.

IF you can find a good artist
IF you can get them to agree to your commission based idea
IF the game is popular
IF the game makes money
IF the game continues to make money

You are trying to convince people that your idea will give game dev's a leg up, a better chance of succeeding but it doesn't.

The information you are giving ranges from misleading to out right false. As I said before, There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve things but misleading people and sharing clearly false information to back up an idea you clearly put 0% research into IS wrong.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

peterppp I won't fuel your troll posts anymore, it's clear that you're cognitively overwhelmed with the subject at hand.

morphnet Same for you. While you are putting in some effort, you are still trolling, and your information is wrong. You still do not understand the application of the various wage models, yet you list them under false conclusions. It would simply take too much time to go through the entire construct you've built from your fantasy, collecting links that support your confirmation bias and explaining the many logical fallacies you've committed. Like I said, I've been in the industry for almost a decade now, so I don't need a random user Googling things, trying to prove the real world wrong based on what they think it looks like after spending one evening on Google.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

"Share the earnings" isn't an option unless:
* you're actually earning some money from the project;
* have a number of successful projects to show that you're serious;
* you're convincing someone you've known for a while, thus there is some trust between you;
Otherwise, it's the same thing as "paying with exposition", only worse, because it's unlikely they'll be able to show that stuff on their "real" portfolio.

Sure, I never suggested that the bloodiest beginner of all should start with a 3D animator right away, especially since I highlighted to work together with good 3D artists. So naturally, you'd have already 1-3 (NSFW) games that you did as hobby under your hood, gathered some experience and maybe got some patreons already, even if it's just 100.

Your money will most likely still not be enough at this point to pay someone upfront, but the comission only model can be tempting if your project has potential. The 3D artist can potentially earn much more than being paid upfront. And since NSFW games with good visual do sell freaking well, even if the gameplay and coding and everything else is mid, chances are good that it pays off if both participants are competent.

A comission based model is definitely not even remotely close to "being paid in exposition" though. Like I said, if the game gets abandoned, the 3D artist can sell the assets on a 3D marketplace. This is an unique opportunity that's special to this subgenre. Therefore, we cannot simply apply general cliché but have to look at the specific situation and opportunities.

In my case, an artist would've been paid a flat zero thus far. Even if I monetized my game somehow, I doubt I'd have earned more than 100 dollars by now. Not only that, I took 7 months between the last update and the current one, in that meantime a hired artist could get too busy with something else, decide he doesn't want to do smut anymore, etc.

These are things that you wouldn't leave to chance, the contract will cover all of that in detail. Working as a professional under a contract is, of course, different from just loosely teaming up with someone based on spontaneity.

Anyone going into a work venture without a contract is just asking to get screwed over in some way, but how do you ask someone to sign a contract for what is basically a hobby project?

Well, the main difference between an amateur and a professional is that professionals earn money for their work. So when you aim at Patreon and making money, it's not just a hobby anymore. Even if you might call it like that because you're not too serious about it. In that case of course, it's questionable whether it makes sense to team up with a 3D artist and make a contract. Like I said, this suggestion is mainly aimed at game developers who are serious about their games—not people working on a hobby project on the side, hoping for Patreon support without really putting in the effort to make it economically viable.

 

[OldSailor]

Hey, man, listen. I can understand how a game with a really good storyline can become annoying with shitty and even non-animated renders. You want to play a good game. I want to play a good game. But you're really missing some things.

To hire someone who renders really good scenes, you need to pay CASH and a FULL price. And to tell you the truth, most games you see on this platform are made by people with minimal or no budget, who are full time employees or students, to make an income. The porn gaming industry is not a predictable industry with millions of dollars flowing in, promising you a clear income. That's why people who have enough money to invest in this kind of gaming would rather invest it in brighter alternatives.

You can be sure that this idea has occurred to every developer at least once. But in reality things are not as simple as they are in theory.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

To hire someone who renders really good scenes, you need to pay CASH and a FULL price. And to tell you the truth, most games you see on this platform are made by people with minimal or no budget, who are full time employees or students, to make an income.

That's normal in the beginning. But as the side-business grows, people slowly start to shift their workload over. Full time becomes part time, which leaves more time for the side-business. This on the other hand generates more and more money so that full time work isn't required anymore as main income source.

That's how most self-employed businesses start.

The porn gaming industry is not a predictable industry with millions of dollars flowing in, promising you a clear income. That's why people who have enough money to invest in this kind of gaming would rather invest it in brighter alternatives.

The porn game industry is just growing as much as the regular game industry, especially since Steam did open its gates for that kind of games in 2018 and with the modern opportunities of subscription sites, making self-employement easier than ever in human history.

If you look at the big games out there, many of them can keep a constant cash-flow through Patreon even if they didn't deliver any new update over 6-12 months. That can easily be considered as some sort of safety and is something that's unique for this sub-industry.

That being said, the life of artists is always accompanied by many insecurities. Artists usually have to do multiple things and have at least two different creative professions they can earn money with, and they also aim at passive income often, so they're not entirely dependend on an infinite stream of directly paid projects coming in - which won't happen for 95%.

A game that peforms well with a comission only based payment can help in the long run, because it will generate money month after month, even if the artist is already working on entirely new projects, which grants some sort of safety. So this model can be tempting especially for freelancers who want to build various income streams.

You can be sure that this idea has occurred to every developer at least once. But in reality things are not as simple as they are in theory.

Thinking of something but not doing it doesn't mean that it's not doable. Many people are held back by fear of failure, lack of confidence, not willing to put in the effort and so on.

If you look at higher leagues, many people simply work together, they perform well and they split the bigger rewards.

Artists who've been long enough in their industry know that just being an artist doing pretty things won't cut it. They realized they also have to be businesspeople and salespersons. That they have to put themselves out there, negotiate contracts, socialize, and network.

Working together will also potentially open doors in the future. People tend to call other people they already worked with and had a positive experience with. You might work with someone who becomes really big five years after you finished your cooperative work, and they remember you and give you a call for their next big thing. Or you're the one who got big five years after and call them, because you know they're a good partner to work with. That's how it usually goes in the world of artists and freelancers.

It's not the triple A projects knocking on your door out of the blue (very rarely), but the people you've worked with.

So, attempting to measure the benefits of cooperation solely based on immediate upfront payment isn't how this industry works. People who only know the working world from the perspective of a permanent employee at traditional companies naturally do not realize this, and try to apply these conditions directly to the world of freelancers and artists, as can be clearly seen in this thread.

For the reasons mentioned above, this approach obviously doesn't work.

 

[AlternateDreams]

I'm not going to comment on the main topic of the thread.
I think some people have been clear enough about the reality of the market.

However, I did want to comment on this

Here's an example: https://f95zone.to/threads/the-bouncing-agency-v0-19-adn700.142560/

This game really stands out with the quality of the animations. In the reviews you can basically read all over the place that the animations are so great, that they even make up for not the best writing.

I haven't played the game but a quick glance at the thread tells me that the animations were made with VAM (Virt-A-Mate).
So if you like this kind of animations, and you think the result is better than what's in other games, you can do the same without any particular knowledge, just a few hours to learn how to use VAM (it's much easier than learning Daz or Blender).

Also, please note that I recognize at least 3 animations (maybe with minor modifications) in the thread's gifs.
They are availabe for free on the VAM hub.

I don't know whether the game's creator made them or whether he borrowed them from their authors (he may be the author, but he's changed his username between the different platforms)
The fact that these animations already existed before the game was created explains why you might think the game's development was relatively fast.

 

[Fuchsschweif]

The fact that these animations already existed before the game was created explains why you might think the game's development was relatively fast.

It was fast, even if you compare it to games that use Illusion models and sex poses and barely animate custom scenes. That's even a bit easier than using VAM, because with VAM you have many different assets from different creators that don't use the same standard as with Illusion.

 

[morphnet]

morphnet Same for you. While you are putting in some effort, you are still trolling, and your information is wrong.

So in other words you are trying to discredit the posters because you can't argue the factual sources provided.

You still do not understand the application of the various wage models, yet you list them under false conclusions.

I've linked sourced information, contracts and information from actual artists, your reply to this is "na ah you're a troll" so who is really trolling here?

It would simply take too much time to go through the entire construct you've built from your fantasy, collecting links that support your confirmation bias and explaining the many logical fallacies you've committed.

So you continue to try discredit the poster while using a long winded way of saying you have nothing to support your claims even though you claim it's standard and you claim to have been in the industry for 9 years.

Like I said, I've been in the industry for almost a decade now, so I don't need a random user Googling things, trying to prove the real world wrong based on what they think it looks like after spending one evening on Google.

Google it up.

You were the one who told me to google it, I did, all of it and google, duckduckgo and bing all say you are full of BS.

You are the one making false claims, giving misleading and false information and refusing to back it up with any sources.
"Because you said so..." is not a credible or factual source of information, people and sites dedicated to the topic are.