Others Going Deeper [Beta 2] [NRFB Games]

[MarshmallowCasserole]

Sure, but did you have anything in mind in particular?

Hooo boy, where do I start? Okay, the crawl main screen is a good start, probably.

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1. I see no reason why character paths should not be visible at all times (perhaps not animated). Also the big marker could be placed on every cell to be visited, not just the final destination.
2. Why the passages between rooms aren't depicted like this? The presense or absence of traversal is much more important that the existence of the node. Instead, the color of choice for path is cold grey or dark cold grey. Why? Reading the map is a challenge. Really inconvenient, especially considering the palette for background art, which is also dark-greyish.
3. This tiny ass button exists while the highlighted area does nothing? Make clicking on stats bring up stat window.
4. Skills are not dimmed when it's not the character's turn, or when the skill is not applicable. You have that logic coded, because the skill is shown in the popup menu dynamically. Also the button is a tiny ass button. You could either grey out skills out of turn, OR just make characters activate skills at their next turn.
5. Actually, why isn't the skill button located here instead?
6. Speaking of highlighting whose turn it is, why not do it on a map, with a portrait border?
7. Tiny ass button! Also ironically, clicking on the stat window does nothing, but clicking on well-rested doubles the focus functionality.
8. There's no visual indication on who's following who. Since it's probably the most convenient way of moving in groups (rule 0, don't split the party), it's really inconvenient.

 

[vsilvv]

Hooo boy, where do I start? Okay, the crawl main screen is a good start, probably.

While the tone of the post is a bit much, these are all really great suggestions and the map UI could definitely use a bit of love. All the information we need is there, but it's a little cumbersome to access. I needed to plug in a mouse to my laptop to play the game comfortably, which shouldn't really be necessary for an RPG.

I think giving commands could be made a little easier, too, by making it clearer whose turn it currently is and then making the hotkeys work without having to click on their portrait first.

 

[Rosen King]

You get points for how well you do in a run, which allows you to buy benefits (or negatives) when you complete a run. Some of those options are for carrying over research notes and the other time consuming stuff. But yeah there should definitely be a warning slapped up if it's going to overwrite an existing run.

The problem is that choosing "New Game" before finishing your current game (even by abandoning it) doesn't carry things over to the next game. So in addition to a warning, it should probably also properly "close out" your previous run (or at least give you the option to do so).

The ideal situation to get to would be one where the gameplay is fun enough that people are playing it for fun rather than just to tick off all the content checkboxes and the content available (including the lewd stuff) is plentiful enough that they keep finding new stuff as they do so.

The problem here is that there will always, eventually, be a point where you've seen most things you can expect to see "organically" but still have plenty of other stuff that you haven't seen. There will always be people who want to see everything, and they will eventually reach the point where the only feasible way to do so is inorganically. So you can design the majority of the game around having stuff encountered during normal gameplay, but still need to account for when it's time to just start checking things off the list.

I think we already went over this way back when the game was first posted, though. The research log and hints mostly cover this, aside from being uncertain how many monsters/traps/etc. you still have yet to encounter. Although, when there start being more things that are exclusive to later floors and specific scenarios... Hmm... Well, you already have the "Unleash the Maids" option in the NG+ menu. More options like that being added over time could help deal with the more situational events.

Maybe there could even be an option to start at later floors...? This would be tricky to balance, though. And it should be something that's not as straightforward to unlock. I'm thinking of something like Enter the Gungeon where you'd need to do some elaborate setup over multiple runs to unlock the elevators in each floor.

I wouldn't really have a solution to suggest for a game of this caliber, other than maybe unlocking some sort of sandbox mode where you can check off which traps and monsters are allowed to appear and a free camping mode with infinite time. Sounds like a lot of work both in design and implementation, though.

Well, there *is* a debug mode, but it's exclusive to patrons... You can also mod stuff like that, although I'm not sure if that'd be more trouble than it's worth.

making it clearer whose turn it currently is

This should be visible in the top right, I believe. Maybe it briefly changes when you click on someone else, but I think clicking off goes right back to the person whose turn it is. I may be wrong about that last part, though.

Tiny ass button!

The UI scale can be adjusted by changing the resolution if you're in fullscreen mode. I'm not sure if it's possible to make a separate "UI scaling" setting while keeping the resolution, but I do know that making things too much bigger by default will create problems for those of us who need lower resolutions to see things properly.

 

[vsilvv]

This should be visible in the top right, I believe. Maybe it briefly changes when you click on someone else, but I think clicking off goes right back to the person whose turn it is. I may be wrong about that last part, though.

Nope, you're right. But turn structure is too important not to have a constant indicator, in my opinion. This is specifically one of the less important issues, though, as you get it figured out pretty fast. It's just that if you make giving commands easier (not needing to click on the current character to issue them) then you need to make it obvious that it's their turn and their command. Alternatively, a little popup would be nice. If I hit R right now, I think I hear a little click, and that's it? Would be great if it made a little "Rest" floating text pop up over the character who received the command.

 

[Eidolic]

If I hit R right now, I think I hear a little click, and that's it? Would be great if it made a little "Rest" floating text pop up over the character who received the command.

Seconding, any feedback on hotkeys working successfully would be nice.

 

[Entes1111]

Lore-wise, the inquisitor wouldn't be able to enter the dungeon without getting an Eschahn mark and curses, which would probably be its own kind of problem as far as gameplay goes. Though obviously, most lore stuff is technically malleable and I could retcon/excuse whatever if I REALLY wanted the inquisitor to be present in the dungeon (though I don't really).

Oh right...forgot about that part of the lore.

 

[NRFB]

Bugfix version is up on itch. I'm still uploading it to mirrors and will add it to the first post when that's done.
Edit: if you're reading this, the above is now finished being done. The first post is updated with the new links/information.

list

Unless explicitly stated, none of these comments are disagreeing with your observations, just so you know.
1. Mostly just visual clutter reasons
2. I did set up something similar to that idea when prototyping the connections between rooms (in the original version, there were no connections which made it even more difficult to see which rooms were adjacent), but I didn't like how heavy it made things look. Too "filled out" if that makes sense? It possibly could have been fixed by making the connections thinner or adjusting the tone of the wood color or something, dunno.
3. Sounds fine, sure.
4. The option shows dynamically in the orders menu because it assesses the validity of if the skill could be used or not at the time that the orders menu is about to be opened. By contrast the button is always visible which means in order for it to always be accurate you have to have it assess that validity much more often. Not saying that that couldn't be done though, of course, just that I chose not to do it for performance reasons (even though it probably wouldn't matter that much and you're probably right).
5. Dunno. I suppose you could make a case for it to go there.
6. Could do that, sure.
7. I don't think that's irony.
8. Okay.

Well, there *is* a debug mode, but it's exclusive to patrons... You can also mod stuff like that, although I'm not sure if that'd be more trouble than it's worth.

Technically, at present the game only ends because it runs out of valid floor data in the floor_data.json file. You can mod it to be as long as you want. You could even create an "endless" mode by making floor data that has no requirements and thus are always valid to be used by the game.

The UI scale can be adjusted by changing the resolution if you're in fullscreen mode. I'm not sure if it's possible to make a separate "UI scaling" setting while keeping the resolution, but I do know that making things too much bigger by default will create problems for those of us who need lower resolutions to see things properly.

You can blame me for not being a master of godot or whatever but a UI scaling option sounds like a nightmare with how I have things set up. I would rather make an alternate set of UI elements that take up less space and could be switched to in the options menu.

Seconding, any feedback on hotkeys working successfully would be nice.

Can do.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

I think giving commands could be made a little easier, too, by making it clearer whose turn it currently is and then making the hotkeys work without having to click on their portrait first.

I'm sorry if the tone comes off as hostile. Also yes, this please.

The way I played it, was ordering two girls follow the character with best anti-trap stats, and then wandering as a group until well rested status wore off. Rest, repeat. If that could be done by selecting the leader and then simply WASD (or some other keystrokes by default, but I'm remapping this to WASD) instead of T+LMB that would be great.

2. I did set up something similar to that idea when prototyping the connections between rooms (in the original version, there were no connections which made it even more difficult to see which rooms were adjacent), but I didn't like how heavy it made things look. Too "filled out" if that makes sense? It possibly could have been fixed by making the connections thinner or adjusting the tone of the wood color or something, dunno.

Yes, that makes perfect sense, but to be fair the way you generate dungeon graphs, they are on the densely clumped side rather than sparse so that visual impression would be accurate. And yes. I think you could shrink the visual representation of a room or connections a bit and have more "empty space" without hurting visual clarity. This is more about connections having equal or greater visual impact compared to rooms.

5. Dunno. I suppose you could make a case for it to go there.

I'm not sure it's the best place for it. But I know that using skills was probably my least favorite part, especially when support skills came into play. Get it together and Leadership seem to be powerful skills, but I basically spammed the latter via a pop-up menu, it wasn't fun. There has to be some sort of skill bar, or something, and the window that tells whose turn it is seems to be the first place to go.

Ideally I'd like to press the skill button, even out of turn, and the knight would use it when her turn comes, if the skill still makes sense.

Okay, so I'll briefly comment on the other screens. The camp screen is mostly good, the use of sandclock symbol to indicate all the actions that use time is GOOD.
1. Bringing up Knight's stat page could be made by a dedicated button (from your tent maybe?) instead of locating the knight.
2. "Check you own status" could be moved to inquisitor's portrait or even merged with it.
3. Options, too, feel like they belong in the lower right corner.
4. Cosidering "Go back to the dungeon" is greyed out all the time until it's really time to go, do you really need it? Make it appear at the 10th hour as the only action at every location, maybe?

Research screen.
1. Big, big one. There isn't a quick way to continue last research project to completion. There isn't even an indication that this monster/trap/curse has already research invested.
2. Remembering the state of this window when you re-open it could be a nice QoL to help with the previous problem a bit.
3. "Hide fully researched skills" is nice, but I often want to find the opposite. I want to read up on researched skills to see if I can fulfil requirements. (And generally, I have maybe a fifth of skills researched on 2nd run, there are a lot of research subjects and so little time)


Character skill screen.
1. I'm convinced the "Learn New Skill" button is not needed. You could just display new skills in the same panel as existing skill (maybe tinted green or blue, or whatever to indicate "new") and that's it. If you think there has to be a separate dialogue for learning new skill, then there certainly is space to display descriptions for these 3 skills right away instead of clicking 6 times just to read up on your options (more if you consider different ranks).
2. The button to level up the skill is too damn tiny. If keeping this button small is important, then consider this as a second option:

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Scroll management screen.
1. If it's possible, consider reorganizing the spell/scroll inventory to be 2 or 3 rows.
2. It's better to sort this list/inventory by availability, instead of new stuff gets shoved in the end of the list.
3. And yes, you have filters. Let's talk about filters, this applies to other screens (research) but here it's really relevant. What makes them unusable for me, is that they are exclusive with a Boolean OR, while I want inclusive with OR. What I mean, generally I want to see: memorized spells and any scrolls I have in my inventory. Basically, anything potentially learnable. Even if it's not teachable/imprintable at the moment, I still want to browse and maybe figure out how to fulfil the requirements. None of the filters seem to allow me that (unless I am missing something obvious). The logic I want is: show (memorized OR scroll number > 0). Sometimes: show (memorized OR scroll number > 0 OR teachable)

 

[Privitarium]

List

Will preface by saying that your suggestions seem to be mostly on polish and I think it's better for the dev focus on completing the base content, but here are some of my thoughts:

When you say "connections having equal or greater visual impact compared to rooms", do you mean the knights' indicated travel path? Or the links that indicate which rooms are connected? It reads like the second, but thought I'd clarify.

I agree somewhat that active skills need to be easier to use for them to compete with the passive skills of the earlier builds. Maybe this is due to a combination of playing against increased difficulty and my own developed playstyle, but active skills (especially non-special ones) don't seem to make much more of an impact than passive ones for needing more micromanagement on top of costing a knight's turn. But perhaps this is just a difference in playstyle where active skills are merely providing an alternative to the hands-off approach. Still, considering active skills are a late addition and relatively minor compared to the rest of the game, it doesn't seem particularly urgent to me for getting the game to a complete state.

Camp screen
2: I think it's good to keep this buttons together with the rest just to make sure it's easy to discover.
3: this placement would make it consistent with the dungeon screen
4: no, I think it's important for any first time player to be able to readily see how to move on to the next dungeon phase WITHOUT looking at the tutorial. Making the button appear and disappear is overcomplicating something that is currently very elegant in its simplicity.

Research screen:
1: indicator for research invested is how much information has been revealed, but I'm guessing you mean WITHOUT clicking on the monster/trap, is that right?
3: understandable somewhat on your first two playthroughs but, as you're incentivised to memorise every scroll the first time you get it, you will quickly migrate to the Manage Scrolls screen for filtering learnable skills if you haven't already.

Scroll Management screen
1: as the list of skills is very long now, I also think a second row may be in order. However, I'm concerned about how difficult it would be to code "when should skills go to the next row rather stay in the first" especially with filtering in the mix. Maybe if the scrolling were vertical instead of horizontal?
2: while I would prefer a different ordering system that feels more categorised, "availability" is what the filters are for
3: "Anything potentially learnable" as you’ve defined it (including unteachable/unimprintable) is ALL skills ALL THE TIME barring exclusive ones. You want an option to include scroll count > 0 OR memorised, but you'll find yourself wanting to switch "memorised" for "teachable" very quickly if you memorise scrolls as soon as you find new ones (because it should only take a couple playthroughs to memorise the vast majority of skills, but that may have changed now that the skill list is much larger than before, so randomisation probably makes that longer now. Honestly, NRFB, isn't this number getting out of hand?). As for learning the requirements, I suppose just adding a filter for "hide unresearched" would do? Another filter that becomes redundant once all skills are researched but until then...

 

[NRFB]

There's already a couple of issues with the bugfix update. Big enough that I feel silly to have missed them while testing, but on the bright side they aren't gamebreaking and don't crash anything. Honestly they may not even be noticable if you're not already used to stuff working the intended way. They just make the game easier in unintended ways. Not going to rush out another fix version for them.

Also I am very much taking in this discussion to ruminate on. We'll see what comes out the other end.

Will preface by saying that your suggestions seem to be mostly on polish and I think it's better for the dev focus on completing the base content, but here are some of my thoughts:

Probably good to have someone else remind me of this from time to time yeah. Spending a day on convenience UI polish is good, but also a day not spent on something else on the endless to do list.

Honestly, NRFB, isn't this number getting out of hand?

?????????
Adding skills fun.
Variety of skill builds fun.

 

[Privitarium]

?????????
Adding skills fun.
Variety of skill builds fun.

Yeah, I remember you nutter

Looking towards completion though, I suspect that the upper limit on scrolls per floor could be as low as 5. I don't know how many floors you estimate the completed game will have, but I definitely think we currently reach endgame levels of power by floor 10 while the story progression makes me guess 50 floors. Not that the current rate needs to be changed any time soon while the game is in alpha (it's definitely necessary for the sake of testing).

Doing so would make dispelling of curses and multi-floor dives more relevant (and encourage careful/strategic dungeoneering to reduce their toll), as well as allowing trap/monster strength and knight strength to scale more slowly while retaining the difficulty. Not to mention that fewer scrolls/slower scaling means one feels more free to use time prepping spells to refresh the ones that require it or for spending time with knights.

Again, not relevant until more floors are added, just thoughts on what the final game could play like.

Edit: forgot to say last time, nice writing on Elli as usual. Elli still best girl (though really the only knight who's been fleshed out much. We know a little about Raine and even less about Lucette)

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

Will preface by saying that your suggestions seem to be mostly on polish and I think it's better for the dev focus on completing the base content

I mean... Yes, if there is an ironclad roadmap that reads "Update 20: Full UI overhaul and polish, and nothing else", otherwise it's a sure way to drag this UI as it is into the release. I've seen this happen to projects like this (that is, with a heavy focus on elaborate mechanics).

Think of it as technical debt of sorts. It's very tempting to ignore it for as long as possible. It's not wise to do so. The game seems to have most fundamental mechanics set in stone. Crawling, character building, research, I expect these aspects make it into release as they are, just with more content.

When you say "connections having equal or greater visual impact compared to rooms", do you mean the knights' indicated travel path? Or the links that indicate which rooms are connected? It reads like the second, but thought I'd clarify.

Yeah, the latter, though I have mentioned that I'd like the former too.

indicator for research invested is how much information has been revealed, but I'm guessing you mean WITHOUT clicking on the monster/trap, is that right?

Yes.

However, I'm concerned about how difficult it would be to code "when should skills go to the next row rather stay in the first" especially with filtering in the mix. Maybe if the scrolling were vertical instead of horizontal?

Vertical scrolling is nice but this window is currently wide, and not very tall. Horizontal scrolling seems to be chosen for the screen space reason.

Considering how to fill it, it's an inventory. If it's 2 height, infinite width, then it simply fills out by columns.
1 3 5 7 ...
2 4 6 8

If it's 2 wide, infinite height instead (change to vertical), then it fills out by rows.
1 2
3 4
etc

"Anything potentially learnable" as you’ve defined it (including unteachable/unimprintable) is ALL skills ALL THE TIME barring exclusive ones. You want an option to include scroll count > 0 OR memorised, but you'll find yourself wanting to switch "memorised" for "teachable" very quickly if you memorise scrolls as soon as you find new ones

That's the neat part, I don't! I have a very limited selection of memorized spells. I intend to keep it this way. I think I'm way better off scrubbing scrolls for extra skill points for the current run, because I simply do not like a lot of skills (for various reasons).

I also do not intend to max out research, I do not. I will maybe make an effort to unlock most of Knight's content, and all curses (because that makes them visible and controllable, which is CRUCIAL).

 

[Rosen King]

Elli still best girl (though really the only knight who's been fleshed out much. We know a little about Raine and even less about Lucette)

Say what? I haven't seen the two new "lazy" events (and I still can't figure out how to make her spar with Raine - any help there?), but she's always been by far the hardest of the girls to figure out. She frequently gives off hints that she's not nearly as casual and easy as she seems at first glance, but evades any attempts to dig deeper. When thinking of what I want to do with each of the three girls, she's always the one I don't have an answer for because I can't get a sense of who she really is as a person.

Lucette's totally the best girl, though. She may not say anything about her past (or her secret mission that she's clearly hiding), but we still get a pretty good sense of who she is as a person. I do find it interesting how paradoxical her attitude towards heresy is, however. She's inherently inquisitive and open-minded, to the point that she offers to let the Inquisitor pray to her god with her and considers doing the same for Melos. But she's immediately hostile towards anything that falls under the technical label of "heresy". I wonder how she would react when confronted with the idea that regarding the two gods as equal is inherently heretical? The Inquisitor hints that acknowledging the gods as less than perfect is unthinkable, but two radically different gods can't both be equally perfect. I don't think she'd let this create a divide between them, though. If forced to choose, I'm sure Lucette would sooner admit that not all forms of heresy are evil.

...I'm getting kind of off track, though.

 

[keefa101]

There's already a couple of issues with the bugfix update. Big enough that I feel silly to have missed them while testing, but on the bright side they aren't gamebreaking and don't crash anything. Honestly they may not even be noticable if you're not already used to stuff working the intended way. They just make the game easier in unintended ways. Not going to rush out another fix version for them.

Also I am very much taking in this discussion to ruminate on. We'll see what comes out the other end.


Probably good to have someone else remind me of this from time to time yeah. Spending a day on convenience UI polish is good, but also a day not spent on something else on the endless to do list.


?????????
Adding skills fun.
Variety of skill builds fun.

Just a heads up I am getting an odd crash which seems persistent between saves on the new bug fixed version I got from Itch. It seems to be tied to either an attack on a monster or a monster attacking (as it seems to happen when one of the girls is in a monster room at random around level 6 onwards). Had a look at the cfg file and saw logging was enabled so checked the appdata folder but the logs are all empty unfortuately so only thing I have is a Windows error log report sorry!


Faulting application name: Going Deeper Alpha-13.1 Public.exe, version: 3.5.1.0, time stamp: 0x00000000
Faulting module name: ntdll.dll, version: 10.0.22621.1848, time stamp: 0x48d14984
Exception code: 0xc00000fd
Fault offset: 0x000000000003cff2
Faulting process id: 0x0x3088
Faulting application start time: 0x0x1D9B053C8790519
Faulting application path: E:\Games\Going Deeper Alpha-13.1 Public (win)\Going Deeper Alpha-13.1 Public.exe
Faulting module path: C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll
Report Id: 2e9a456f-eb6e-4a01-a652-bfd488c38529
Faulting package full name:
Faulting package-relative application ID:

 

[Privitarium]

That's the neat part, I don't! I have a very limited selection of memorized spells. I intend to keep it this way. I think I'm way better off scrubbing scrolls for extra skill points for the current run, because I simply do not like a lot of skills (for various reasons).

I also do not intend to max out research, I do not. I will maybe make an effort to unlock most of Knight's content, and all curses (because that makes them visible and controllable, which is CRUCIAL).

That explains a lot. Also similar to my own thoughts during my first few runs. You do get NG+ currency for research, but I'm guessing you know that and don't mind. Still, "hide unresearched" probably fits your desires, no?

I wonder how she would react when confronted with the idea that regarding the two gods as equal is inherently heretical? The Inquisitor hints that acknowledging the gods as less than perfect is unthinkable, but two radically different gods can't both be equally perfect.

I'm pretty sure it works because they are not from two monotheistic faiths but one polytheistic faith that worships two gods - followers are simply expected to take specialised roles in "dedicating" themselves to one or the other. A thing is "inherently heretical" only if it doesn't follow what the faith in question holds as orthodox.

As for Lucette being more easily understandable, that's because we don't yet know her as much more than an archetype. The fact that Elli tries to keep the Inquisitor at arms' length (metaphorically, not literally) is a little hint to who she is as a person and a professional. In terms of non-sex scenes, Elli has the lion's share of screen time. That she remains mysterious despite more being revealed about her is still fleshing her out beyond the archetype of flirty girl - if you can simply pin a label on her and say "I know who she is," then that's a shallow character, not a fleshed out one.

In short, we know a good amount about Elli through what she won't tell while Lucette and Raine haven't had nearly as many chances to tell or not tell anything.

 

[Azleath]

The mc does have scenes with the girls (some).


This is a good game with no ntr

oh ok ty for responding I was just thrown off by the ui and hard to keep up reading what happens in each room lol. Will check out more of it thanks dev.

 

[Rosen King]

I'm pretty sure it works because they are not from two monotheistic faiths but one polytheistic faith that worships two gods - followers are simply expected to take specialised roles in "dedicating" themselves to one or the other. A thing is "inherently heretical" only if it doesn't follow what the faith in question holds as orthodox.

I'm fairly certain it's been established that they belong to two different churches who have simply made peace with each other. In the opening, Lucette even warns Raine against accidentally starting an inter-church incident by assaulting the Inquisitor. And more than that, they used to be at war with each other at some unspecified point in the past. This is mentioned at several points as the [I forget its name] Conflict, and I have a feeling it's going to become more relevant to the plot going forward. I would presume the root cause of the conflict was a simple one: A religious war against the heretics who worshipped a false goddess. (Note that our heroes' current mission is also to wage war against a false goddess.) As for how it ended, I'm not so certain whether it was simply the leaders of both sides striking a truce, or if it was somehow divine intervention from the goddesses telling them they were fighting for the wrong reasons. Perhaps it was even the former while publicly claiming to be the latter. In either case, it seemingly ended with the definition of "heresy" changing, and the dogma that "there is only one true goddess" became "there are two goddesses, and they are equal in their perfection". One way or another, there is/was a point where the churches held a belief that was antithetical to what they held at another point in time.

And, y'know... That's okay. If you asked the Inquisitor or any of the knights whether they thought the pre-conflict or post-conflict dogma had it right, they'd say post-conflict. Even if they had to completely abandon the very core of their religion, the singular worship of their goddess, to accept each other, it was all worth it in the end. But it was also heresy of the highest order. And I have a feeling that one of the antagonists is going to try to use that angle against the heroes, calling them hypocrites for accepting each other but rejecting Eschahn.

Of course, I have a hunch that the two churches aren't as sympatico as they appear on the surface, and that Lucette is well aware of this fact. The secret that she's keeping may be something that contradicts the publicly established dogma, hence the need to keep it from lower-ranked knights. Maybe the burden of that secret is why she has such a knee-jerk reaction to heresy.

As for Lucette being more easily understandable, that's because we don't yet know her as much more than an archetype.

Disagree.

that's a shallow character

Burn the heretic.

 

[Privitarium]

In either case, it seemingly ended with the definition of "heresy" changing, and the dogma that "there is only one true goddess" became "there are two goddesses, and they are equal in their perfection".

Will assume this history is correct, but the definition of heresy doesn't change. Rather, what is held to be orthodox has, which in turn changes what is HELD as heresy to change (not dictionary definition). As such, in this orthodoxy of 2 churches, 2 goddesses, 1 pantheon, 1 polytheistic faith, it is not inherently heretical (if heresy can be inherent) for either the Inquisitor or Lucette to pray to both Syra and Melos.

Perhaps an easier way to envision what is meant by two churches is to replace "church" with "temple". See the Greek classical religion, which would be considered one faith with a large pantheon and separate temples or churches dedicated to each god (not all of which are found in every city) at which all followers are free to worship even if acolytes of each temple are "dedicated" to its god.

And more than that, they used to be at war with each other at some unspecified point in the past. This is mentioned at several points as the [I forget its name] Conflict.

Could you remind me of one or two events where this was mentioned? As far as I've found, Syra and Melos are "sister goddesses" with Melos being the younger, more compassionate one (see research window).

Also, NRFB, would it be okay if the plot events within the dungeon are recorded in the research tab? Whether as witch/NPC events or otherwise. Also, I noticed the lore sections for Syra are quite empty upon starting a NG+ and I forget if they were supposed to fill out over the course of the game or if they had yet to be written. If they are, I'd like to similarly request those parts of the research book to be carried over as part of a current NG+ option or a new one.

Burn the heretic.

I know you're joking, but I'd like to point out that I'm not accusing Lucette of being a shallow character. I'm confident that NRFB has written her a deep character, only we've yet to see as much of it compared to Elli. From my previous two posts, I've stated that my bias towards Elli is only in light of the fact that, in comparison to the other two knights, Elli has had the most screen time.

Disagree.

You know what? I do too. A cursory rerun through the events in the research window, we definitely know more about Lucette than Raine and enough to suggest she is more than an archetype. For example, she's interested in magical theory beyond physical enhancement for curiosity's sake rather than any utilitarian purpose. Also, her overreation to the Inquisitor agreeing to deal with threats during Concerns and Elli's turning tables on Lucette during Waking Up Late 1 suggest Lucette has had a history of people disrespecting her authority, or she's more of a control freak than she'd like to think, or both. However, I don't believe we know any more about Lucette's motivations than we do Elli's without presumptions.

 

[MarshmallowCasserole]

That explains a lot. Also similar to my own thoughts during my first few runs. You do get NG+ currency for research, but I'm guessing you know that and don't mind.

I've got enough points from 1st run to carry over basically every essential I needed, because I obviously did research on things that seemed interesting to me. That was enough. Yeah, I've got no luxuries like extra mana and retaining spells, not a big deal. After the second run I still have plenty of unresearched topics, and over 1,5k KP (which is more than enough).

Still, "hide unresearched" probably fits your desires, no?

Not really, I'm still encountering new rare skills regularly. Maybe there's a misunderstanding, but I what consider potentially learnable (on this run) is either scrolls I have (obviously some are unresearched, i.e. brand new) and spells that I memorized (most are researched, but some aren't, i.e. brand new scrolls that got memorized instantly). With these two, there's a good chance I will get to imprint/teach/scrub them, in other words, perform an action. These I want to see all the time.

And sometimes in addition to that I'm interested in perusing what spells that I know of my knights can theoretically learn or be imprinted with (not already learned and requirements satisfied, which is like 1/4th? 1/3rd? of the whole spell array). I am fine with having a toggle for that, but really, the better way would be sorting the list to bring available scrolls and memorized spells to the top, and these to the bottom of the spell inventory.

 

[Privitarium]

Not really, I'm still encountering new rare skills regularly. Maybe there's a misunderstanding, but I what consider potentially learnable (on this run) is either scrolls I have (obviously some are unresearched, i.e. brand new) and spells that I memorized (most are researched, but some aren't, i.e. brand new scrolls that got memorized instantly)

So to confirm: [potentially learnable] skills are those whose scrolls you own and skills you've memorised. However, I note that of those scrolls you own, some are either instantly blanked or instantly memorised. These are the new or [unmemorised scrolls] from the [scroll count > 0] filter, blanked or memorised depending on if you like the skill or not. Thus the remaining common denominator to what you deem [potentially learnable] I see is skills which are [memorised], and at minimum that would require a filter to [hide unmemorised].

Because after memorising or blanking your [unmemorised scrolls] via [scroll count > 0], which you do instantly immediately, [hide unmemorised] should exclude all leftover undesirable skills of which there should no longer be scrolls of because you've blanked them, and instead show you all skills you have memorised including those you have scrolls of and those you have not researched. Would that be correct?

And sometimes in addition to that I'm interested in perusing what spells that I know of my knights can theoretically learn or be imprinted with (requirements satisfied, which is like 1/4th? 1/3rd? of the whole spell array). I am fine with having a toggle for that, but really, the better way would be sorting the list to bring available scrolls and memorized spells to the top, and these to the bottom of the spell inventoty.

So sometimes, in addition to the [potentially learnable] skills which are shown through [hide unmemorised], you want to see skills which have [requirements satisfied] = [teachable or imprintable]. However, both [teachable] and [imprintable] are found within your [potentially learnable] list and can be found by using [hide unmemorised] (and a quick stop with [scroll count > 0]), as I will demonstrate:

1. For a scroll to be teachable, it MUST be memorised. If it is teachable then the skill is already part of your memorised [potentially learnable] list. Therefore, [teachable] skills can be found with the [hide unmemorised] filter.
2. For a scroll to be imprintable, you MUST have a scroll of it. But all [unmemorised scrolls] you immediately blank or memorise from the [scroll count > 0] filter depending on whether you like the skill. Thus, [unmemorised scroll] =/= [imprintable]. If it is a scroll that has already been memorised or blank, then the scroll is part of your memorised [potentially learnable] list. Therefore, all skills you would consider [imprintable] can be found with the [hide unmemorised] filter.

TLDR: a [hide unmemorised] filter would be nice.