VN Ren'Py Harem Hotel [v0.17.2] [Runey]

[Pr0man]

The only thing you got wrong was why this started. Someone from these forums had a bit of an egotrip and realized they were not making the same money as others and went to complain about it to fakku.

Is this however a fact or mere speculation? I mean, people are bitter all the time so I could imagine this happening. But still, this would be an extremely low blow for once and on the other hand, threatening people who actually do this with an artistic vision in mind, not because it brings the bread to the table.

OK but that still leaves the question: why on earth do they provide a tool to create whatever, but you are not alowed to distribute your content and make money of it. This would be the same as if Microsoft starts sueing anybody who makes money using Window, or Word. What am I missing?

If you have missed it - Microsoft is removing partnered re-sellers their usage licenses for Microsoft products, requiring them to actually pay a license now to use them. Not like your market reach is more than enough passive payment or anything like that

Growing a certain market by providing beneficial deals (like in the free use of a product for a given time, like with Microsoft.), or by simply not regulating the market after providing great tools in order to later down the line - once the market is big enough to drive home a nice chunk of money - is no new tactic.

 

[srksrk 68]

If you have missed it - Microsoft is removing partnered re-sellers their usage licenses for Microsoft products, requiring them to actually pay a license now to use them. Not like your market reach is more than enough passive payment or anything like that

Well, not every reply is an answer... I am not talking about resellers or persons making money distributing other parties' software. I am talking about legit users of a software, having a valid license, and it comes without question that you can make money from what you produce with that legit usage of that software.

 

[I'm Not Thea Lundgren!]

OK but that still leaves the question: why on earth do they provide a tool to create whatever, but you are not alowed to distribute your content and make money of it. This would be the same as if Microsoft starts sueing anybody who makes money using Window, or Word. What am I missing?

There actually used to be an actual clause in the terms of use for Word that stated that it was prohibited for users to create documents with Word, it was most likely created by one of the devs as a joke, because y'know, everyone reads the terms of use.

 

[ZTex]

Is this however a fact or mere speculation? I mean, people are bitter all the time so I could imagine this happening. But still, this would be an extremely low blow for once and on the other hand, threatening people who actually do this with an artistic vision in mind, not because it brings the bread to the table.

There's more than enough screenshots of said person in the actual discussion thread to cast enough doubt on their motives for going to fakku.

 

[Runey]

There's more than enough screenshots of said person in the actual discussion thread to cast enough doubt on their motives for going to fakku.

I was told, and I believe this, that he did not directly go to Fakku. However, the mods (which he is one) on that server did. He was a big part of why this happened. And he was heavily advocating for us getting banned off the server and such.

TowerCrow is also a mod on r/LewdGames. How he could fuck his own community over like that is beyond me.

 

[ZTex]

I was told, and I believe this, that he did not directly go to Fakku. However, the mods (which he is one) on that server did. He was a big part of why this happened. And he was heavily advocating for us getting banned off the server and such.

TowerCrow is also a mod on r/LewdGames. How he could fuck his own community over like that is beyond me.

I mean it's beyond a lot of people really.
It's quite sad that people would be so insecure in their own works as to be this petty and vindictive, but well...it happened.

 

[alex2011]

Can someone please clarify:

1. Illusion/Fakku create and/or distribute a modding tool.
2. I assume this tool is either free, or comes bundled with some kind of Illusion software, or has to be purchased. I do not assume the devs making those games are all pirating that tool.
3. The tool's main purpose is to create content to be used in games.
4. Illusion/Fakku allow or tolerate this usage of their software for quite some time
5. Now out of a sudden, when many devs rely on it and created content and are in the mid of projects, having invested a lot of effort, Illusion/Fakku claim that said tool is not to be used to produce anything of what said tool is intended for, and claim (additional) licence fees.

Right? Do they claim that output of that modding tool may only be used to mod their own games, and not to be used externally?

Edit: typos...

1. Honey Select is a game, not just a modding tool. However, like most recent Illusion games, the majority of features are geared toward making scenes. There is very little actual gameplay with a few exceptions among their titles. Illusion is the only entity created it and they decided to try distribution outside Japan through a third party, Fakku.

2. No, the game IS NOT free, however, it isn't super expensive either. The issue is in the availability. Most sources available to the west are pirated, yes. The sole exception to that in regards to Honey Select is Fakku.

3. Yes, the main purpose of the game is to view and make scenes, though it can also be viewed as a game of the trainer or management genre due to the ability to actually create and train the characters to act a certain way based on how they are treated.

4. Yes, as of even now, Illusion technically maintains the stance that using Honey Select to create other games, Harem Hotel for example, is fine. The issue is that Fakku, more specifically, Jacob, the owner of Fakku, made a statement that contradicts this and there is no word from Illusion directly on this. As far as anyone on the outside can tell, Fakku only acts as a distributor and distributors typically only get the right to distribute in the region requested. They don't normally get the power to make decisions like this, especially by themselves as it appears Fakku did at the moment.

5. Yes, now Fakku is claiming the policy regarding use of assets in other games is changing to not allow it without purchase of the product, which Jacob has said he is willing to facilitate 'for a price.' There is no direct word from Illusion, though there is apparently a third party that still seems fishy.

 

[alex2011]

There actually used to be an actual clause in the terms of use for Word that stated that it was prohibited for users to create documents with Word, it was most likely created by one of the devs as a joke, because y'know, everyone reads the terms of use.

Sadly enough, I remember that clause. Not word for word, mind you, but I remember it existing. It was a stupid thing to add, as a joke or not.

 

[alex2011]

Yes and no.

Up to 3. everything is in order, but...

Especially on 4. there's something a bit more nuanced. The idea behind it is to share characters, stories, etc. etc. They tolerated the usage of the tools (which were clearly designed to be character creators as they have share functions) as long as there's no money made with the content created from it. Using assets generated by creation engines is generally only allowed for fair use as in parodies or non-commercial software, not under commercial usage. This would require the person in question to buy licensing rights for commercial use (which to my knowledge, Illusion did not hand out since they were oblivious to this all.)

This is currently the issue. They allowed/tolerated/ignored the issue, because it wasn't an issue until recently. The "scene" around people making games with Illusion assets has been around for years (plural!) and since it was unregulated en large, the market surrounding it grew to the levels they are at today. Now that there's developers around that _created_ the market and made it grew so that there is a pretty big demand for adult games, the License holders (which are Illusion) step in and try to enforce copyright claims via licensing.

They had an update, stating that they "Did not know a scene like this existed in the first place.", but this is just a shorthand excuse. Not knowing that there is a huge development boom surrounding these creator tools, that has been going on for years(!) is either showing dangerous levels of shortsightedness on the developers parts, or rather, a sever lack of knowledge how the market for adult games (which is largely fringe and thus - uncontested except for the big few) functions.

Going by Ockham's Razor, the simplest solution is also most likely the correct solution - Money. They've seen that there's loads of devs that can turn their assets into fat stacks upon stacks of money and so they want in on it.

P.S: If I got anything wrong, please feel free to correct me. I've only gathered all the knowledge I hold as well as what I could read around through multiple threads thus far.

This does indeed sound like a cash grab, which is exactly something Fakku and Jacob would do. In fact, he's been in on a few in the past. The biggest one so far was the debacle over the attempted revival of the official Hentai Haven website as a legitimate site through Fakku, where Jacob offered to help get the site legit status and nearly pulled the rug out from under the owner of Hentai Haven, trying to completely absorb the site before he pulled the plug on the deal and it shut back down.

 

[Deleted member 929426]

I don't suppose it means anything that I bought HSU because of HH? Just trying to help, you know.

 

[iopq]

Search didn't return anything for me, but I just triggered the beach scene with the two sisters. My stats weren't high enough at the time. Is there a way to do this event again or is it a one time thing?

 

[TheDevian]

Search didn't return anything for me, but I just triggered the beach scene with the two sisters. My stats weren't high enough at the time. Is there a way to do this event again or is it a one time thing?

Pretty sure that was a one time event... Might try the gallery though.

 

[Runey]

Search didn't return anything for me, but I just triggered the beach scene with the two sisters. My stats weren't high enough at the time. Is there a way to do this event again or is it a one time thing?

Don't forget, you have should have plenty of auto saves if you need to go back

 

[markus T]

Lets hope we don't have another situation like patreon and incest where a bunch of d-bags that personally don't like it just report any game that they can that has it. Now instead of a dev being reported for incest content...the dev will be reported for using HS for their content.
Thats probably what started this in the 1st place...a white knight that likes to act like hes "doing the right thing" when in truth...they're doing it because game developers are using assets that they don't like and aren't catering to their tastes so they go to fakku about it to get the ball rolling. Lets hope this blows over and nothing happens.

 

[Merrill]

Can someone please clarify:

1. Illusion/Fakku create and/or distribute a modding tool.
2. I assume this tool is either free, or comes bundled with some kind of Illusion software, or has to be purchased. I do not assume the devs making those games are all pirating that tool.
3. The tool's main purpose is to create content to be used in games.
4. Illusion/Fakku allow or tolerate this usage of their software for quite some time
5. Now out of a sudden, when many devs rely on it and created content and are in the mid of projects, having invested a lot of effort, Illusion/Fakku claim that said tool is not to be used to produce anything of what said tool is intended for, and claim (additional) licence fees.

Right? Do they claim that output of that modding tool may only be used to mod their own games, and not to be used externally?

Edit: typos...

LOL posts like this prove the copyright situation is justified. People don't even know Honey Select is a game itself.

 

[iopq]

Don't forget, you have should have plenty of auto saves if you need to go back

Mmm I'll eventually go back and do it but it's a ways back. Maybe add an option to re-trigger it until the scene was viewed?

 

[TomberryDude]

dude, Honey Select is a full retail game that happens to have a scene editor and character creator. it is not a tool, you only think that because slacker "devs" have been abusing it like it is.

See, I wouldn't call it abuse. Making characters for your own games using Daz3D or Honey Select/Koikatsu isn't that different. Sure the latters are games first and the creative things you can do with it isn't the main point of it but the characters like in Harem Hotel are still Runey's creations using Illusion's software.

Now, I admit the companies (and maybe even law depending on where you're at) might not feel the same way I do but I'll also admit I don't know that. I wouldn't mind an official statement from Illusioin whether or not they feel it's ok to use the characters you create in their games in your own things.

 

[Pr0man]

LOL posts like this prove the copyright situation is justified. People don't even know Honey Select is a game itself.

dude, Honey Select is a full retail game that happens to have a scene editor and character creator. it is not a tool, you only think that because slacker "devs" have been abusing it like it is.

Well, it may be true to call it a game, but the problem with that statement is simple - the experience is bare-bones as hell if taken as a "game". The character creator is truly the focal point of this product. It allows you to create the perfect male and female protagonists for your own scenario with character creator features that dwarf those of some other games that can be justified to be called that and comes with features that allow for easy import and export in order to tinker around even more. The bits of fluff around the resort hotel with Sitri, the receptionist, as well as the possibility to build relations with those characters that are created are just that - padding to justify calling this a game, not an elaborate toolkit for character creation. Because in the end, you are still asked to either import or create characters of your own for both sides in order for you to enjoy this excuse for a game because besides that, is has not all that much to offer.

Besides, Illusion tolerating the use of characters/assets derived from its software for years without ever interventing further shows that the main focus is more on the creation of characters and sharing those scenarious surrounding it instead of focusing on what little the "game" has to actually offer. Furthered by this is the point that a truckload of the modding surrounding HS is focused around improving the character creator part by adding more features, fine tuning sliders, allowing more sliders etc. etc. - You may call it a game all day long, but it has been mainly used and will probably keep on be used as a character creator.

Even just googling or watching a 10 minute review on youtube would help you figure that out.

 

[Merrill]

Well, it may be true to call it a game, but the problem with that statement is simple - the experience is bare-bones as hell if taken as a "game". The character creator is truly the focal point of this product.

Legally this doesn't really matter. It was sold as a full retail game. Might as well try doing the same thing with a character you made in Fallout 4 and explain it away by saying you didn't think the game was good enough.

The character creator is truly the focal point of this product. It allows you to create the perfect male and female protagonists for your own scenario with character creator features that dwarf those of some other games that can be justified to be called that and comes with features that allow for easy import and export in order to tinker around even more. The bits of fluff around the resort hotel with Sitri, the receptionist, as well as the possibility to build relations with those characters that are created are just that - padding to justify calling this a game, not an elaborate toolkit for character creation. Because in the end, you are still asked to either import or create characters of your own for both sides in order for you to enjoy this excuse for a game because besides that, is has not all that much to offer.

So are you going to argue Mario Maker isn't a game and Nintendo doesn't have any rights now?

Besides, Illusion tolerating the use of characters/assets derived from its software for years without ever interventing further shows that the main focus is more on the creation of characters and sharing those scenarious surrounding it instead of focusing on what little the "game" has to actually offer.

There's a huge difference between not doing anything and actually approving of it. They had no legal foothold outside of Japan until the deal with Fakku. It's not really that different from any other Japanese developers that sign publishing deals with foreign companies for western releases. Same reason Deep Silver owns a ton of Japanese games in Europe.

 

[Pr0man]

So, I'm gonna put the answers to those points in spoilers, as I had quite a lot to say... gee I need to learn to shorten my answers and get to the point.

Legally this doesn't really matter. It was sold as a full retail game. Might as well try doing the same thing with a character you made in Fallout 4 and explain it away by saying you didn't think the game was good enough.

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So are you going to argue Mario Maker isn't a game[...]

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[...]and Nintendo doesn't have any rights now?

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There's a huge difference between not doing anything and actually approving of it. They had no legal foothold outside of Japan until the deal with Fakku. It's not really that different from any other Japanese developers that sign publishing deals with foreign companies for western releases. Same reason Deep Silver owns a ton of Japanese games in Europe.

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It seems I gave off the wrong intention with my answer and it may have sounded like I am protecting unauthorized use of software, that's far from the case. It was merely that I felt that people will just "blame lazy devs who enjoy using HS" instead, while the entire thing is way more nuanced than it appears on first glance.

The long takeaway from it? That this had to happen, sooner or later, was clear. No argument needed. Why did devs do it regardless? Because they actually enjoy working with it, some have an artistic vision and wanted to tell a story - but also had next to no funds and thus had to resort to this. Not everyone is an artist or 3d modeler, most of them had next to no money but still a vision. I can see where they're coming from and I'm not ashamed to admit that I've been supporting some of them, one being Runey.

Anyways... I'm gonna refrain from further straying this discussion off-topic. I gave my answers and am basically done talking. If any of you wish to further that discussion, give me a PM, I won't mind giving my two cents.

and to Runey - hope the situation will unfold for the better for you - I'd hate to see this project getting the axe, because I've been enjoying it from version 0.2 or 0.3 onwards - it's been quite a while .