Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
370
Depends on the type of elf, we are talking common and high, the dark elves don't live near as long, but yeah. ;)
Runey and I discussed this fairly recently. To me, "half-elf" means only one human parent and one elven parent, whether they be common elf, dark elf, desert elf or whatever. Runey, however, seems to consider "half elf" to be a colloquial shorthand for "half common elf" specifically. By his definition, Maria isn't a "half elf", she's a "half dark elf", which he regards as being noticeably different.
But, to the current topic, yes, I meant half common elf.
 

alex2011

Conversation Conqueror
Feb 28, 2017
7,716
4,461
Yeah, no, that is really not the case. They will work their employees to death, if they are not prevented. I know, because I was one of those people who was forced to do the work of 3 people, got hurt on the job, and they just paid the fine, and pushed me onto the government to care for. So now I am permanently disabled, and even if I were to try to find work again for some reason, like them taking my benefits away, I am blacklisted from ever working there again, because they had to pay my medical bills for making me disabled in the first place.

We catch corporations knowingly selling poison, we have them happily killing off their customers and employees, as long as it turns a profit. Long term is not the goal, it is all about that fiscal quarter, and the next quarter is the next quarter's problem. In fact, corporations are some of the worst examples of this, because of the way it is designed to care only about short term profits. Since that is how their higher ups are rewarded.

But for that to work, people have to give a shit about the company and the people who work there. They milk it for everything they can get, and move on to the next one when/if it fails. The main issue here is that corporations are controlled by the board, which answers to the investors, who only care about their investment, not even the company. In the old days, we could take short term losses to invest in the futures, but now short term losses are not acceptable. We can even see examples of that here on this site, where a dev can work on a game, drop it, move onto another one, and repeat this as long as people still support them.

We also have the tax incentive, the lower the highest tax rates are, the less incentive the leaders of that company have to invest that money back into the company. As an example, at one time in our country, we had the highest tax rate (for income over a certain amount), was about 90%, so rather than take that money as income and give most of it to the government as taxes, they would reinvest in their companies, pay their employees better, and so on. Then they lowered that tax rate, and all of that stopped, the less they have to pay, the more they keep for themselves and the less they put back into the company. History speaks for itself. While greed has its place, it is an addictive beast, and it blinds you to anything other than how to get more.

The people who do look to the future, are not only rarely drawn to power, they are rarely willing to do what is needed to obtain that power, and in those rare cases when they do, they are then indebted and/or controlled by those special interests who control everything with their "donations".

You are right, that the birth rate may not always stay at the rate it is, which might be part of why they are not including half elves in the elf rights laws, creating a new workforce. Forced breeding is a thing, look at Handmaiden. But here is the thing, by the time this becomes an issue, those people who are in charge will be long dead, or at least out of power, so they just don't care. 'The birth rate drops, they can start up factory farms, cloning, etc., whatever, that is something the future generations can deal with ...not my problem.'

Even if they cut the average lifespan of elves in half, none of them will live to see the end result. Those elves still would outlive their average human several times over. It will take far longer for that problem to show than it did in any real world examples, since no slave here could live for centuries.

Look at climate change, we have been warning about the damage of pollution for most of the last century, but we still refuse to do anything about it, because short term matters more to the people in charge than longer term. They only care about staying in power, and will do anything to make that happen, no matter how stupid and short sighted it is, as long as they get money and power.

This is the case with almost every issue pollution, elf slavery, robot warriors, whatever the issue, long term only matters, if it aligns with their short term goals. While yes, many people are capable of thinking long term, the hard part is getting society and the people in charge of it to care enough to do anything about it.

Which, brings me to another way in which we could change society in this game, once Kali's dad dies, and the girls inherit most of his empire, we could start funding anti-slavery people, use smear campaigns against the pro-slavery candidates, and so on. That could be one way to get Vanessa elected. ;)
Like I said, they DO know better, but they don't care. The real world slavers and corporations know the risks and are doing it anyway. While different from not knowing any better, it has the same effect. Either way, people don't get treated right and that treatment, if left to continue, leads to injury or worse. As you said, you went through it, got hurt, and they just paid the fine instead of fixing the issue. Your employer didn't fail to notice the issue, they just chose not to change anything to get rid of it. The same is happening in game, the humans know perfectly well what this treatment will eventually result in for the elves and are choosing to continue said treatment.

People don't have to care about the company, or in the game's case Syl'anar's economy, to try to wring out maximum profit over the long term, they just have to care enough about profits that they see the long term benefit of keeping the assets in working condition, in this case keeping the elves alive, as that goes a long way in maximizing profits. Much farther than trying to milk the short term would. Here's the thing with investors, all they care about is the big dollar sign and they wouldn't be very pleased to realize that the company they invest in isn't taking the route that maximizes the money going into said investors' pockets. In fact, it would cause major turmoil for the company because the investors would be in an uproar. When the investors aren't happy, the board isn't happy and that cascades down the chain in a way that could lead to major layoffs. The thing preventing that in the real world, the investors don't know this is happening. They only see what they are told and that doesn't include the potential benefits of looking at the long term and acting on them. The same with the people who Cornwall was after with his reforms, they only see the facade, they don't see what is going on behind it, which is the mistreatment that could cost Syl'anar its economy.

I can see where you're coming from with the half elves, but that comes at the cost of longevity. They won't live nearly as long, mistreatment or no mistreatment, and that means less benefit in both the short and the long term. Forced breeding I could see and I did take that into account as a possibility, in fact, I'm almost certain the more radical owners are doing it off screen whether it is breeding the elves themselves to create half elves or lesser or pairing them to create full elves. However, as the mistreatment continues, breeding capability will also be affected much like how animal breeding is affected as animals of certain species are hunted. There may be some in captivity under breeding programs to repopulate the species, but those only have so much they can do because only so many pairs are being bred. The death rate in this real world example is already higher than the birth rate for many of the species in this kind of situation. Once the death rate exceeds the birth rate for the elves, the only fix is to lower the death rate, which means stopping the mistreatment. If the mistreatment continues, you may very well be proven wrong in the humans in charge now outlasting their elven slaves. This mistreatment, if I am correct, is raising the death rate, causing more elves to die earlier and earlier and they will continue to last for shorter and shorter periods of time as it continues, instead dying due to the effects of mistreatment. If they were allowed to live their full lives, even if as laborers, they would indeed last longer than the current generation of humans in Syl'anar, but the mistreatment could kill them at any point, even the very day the latest case of it occurs.

This isn't just potentially cutting elven lives in half, it could be outright ending elven lives in the immediate future. I'm not talking about slowly declining health from the mistreatment, though that is part of the issue, I'm talking mistreatment so bad that the elves just die right there as a direct result. Maybe a particularly radical owner likes to beat his elves, that could lead to death by blunt force trauma. I'm not saying it is happening, but what I am saying is that the effects of the mistreatment are not only long term, they CAN result in death in the immediate future for any given elf.

I love the way you think on that last part, that would be insanely effective aassumiing Cornwall doesn't already have a way to counter. Give them a bit of US election debate antics, smearing one candidate in an election while promoting another, and they won't know what hit them, especially if it is so well funded that our side has a monopoly on media time. If there's anything that wins an election, it's buying out as much media presence as possible.

What extinction? There are over a billion of them, vastly more than when humans arrived on the continent, because they're being breed like livestock; there is precisely zero evidence to support the idea that elvish population levels are dropping precipitously enough for their extinction to be a legitimate concern. Repeated assertion of "when, not if, they go extinct" doesn't make it true. There's no indication they're dying in the massive numbers that'd be required for their extinction to be imminent.


As I already pointed out, you'd have to be killing over 50,000 elves a day, every day, before the population level begins to drop even a single birth below replacement-level fertility. Again, that's the entire US annual homicide rate occuring every day. So, no, it's not a matter of "sooner rather than later"; there is simply no evidence their population is shrinking as a result of human mistreatment. Quite the opposite, actually, given how much their population has increased since the human invasion.


You're right, they only live half as long; that's still about 500 years, though (i.e. longer than the nation of Syl'anar has existed). We also don't know what percentage of their births are half-elf; any human procreating with an elf results in a half-elf, but every elven couple forced to procreate in breeding facilities results in another elf.


Yes, but "sooner" is still longer than the lifespan of most countries, and so therefore outside consideration from a human perspective. Again, humans think in the short-term, and even those who might think "long-term" still aren't thinking about the state of the economy into the mid-26th century, any more than the British East India Company were concerned about the 22nd-century economy. From a human perspective, the labour value of an elf who'll live 1000 years and a half-elf who'll live 500 is functionally identical, because both will still be alive when your great, great-grandchildren have died of old age.


Who cares if a few elves die a little sooner? There are always more elves to do the job. That's the thought process, and we know that because that was the thought process of real-world slave owners, and real-world companies who were killing their employees through negligence; who cares if all the toxic fumes in the factory are killing workers, you can always get more workers. If it cost more to prevent the harm than it did to replace the dead, they didn't bother. They still don't. Are you at all familair with the Recall Formula? If you don't put cash value on the cost of a human life, then corporations will act as if that value is $0.
Even if you reduce an elves lifespan by 300 years, they'll still be alive 700 years after you're dead. Since the people who own elves only care about how they'll benefit them in their lifetime, they're only thinking in terms of years, decades at best. Hypothetical Slave Owner X buys Lin, and mistreats her, cutting her lifespan in half (meaning she'll die in 200 years, instead of living another 700). What does he care? She'll still be useful every day of his life. What happens to her after he dies means less than nothing to him.
What Extinction? The extinction of the elven race, of course. There are over a billion, but a billion is not infinity. Syl'anar does not have a source of labor that is both infinite and affordable. The androids could be considered infinite, but employing them in numbers large enough to support the economy of Syl'anar would be way too expensive and could not be maintained. The replacement of elves with androids would fall apart shortly after it was started because of the cost. They may be getting bred, but as I said above, once the death rate is higher than the birth rate can possibly be, then it is too late to rely on breeding, the only way at that point is to lower the death rate. There is also zero evidence to support that mistreatment isn't having an adverse effect on the elves' ability to live, causing the death rate to rise. We have no real evidence in either direction. That assertion is already true, every living creature dies at some point, so it is not a matter of if the elves die, it is a matter of when. Extinction is also inevitable as it is the end of a species, all species will have their time to die out, but when that happens can be adversely affected by the conditions the species lives in. For example, the elves being mistreated is a condition that hurries the extinction of the elven race through deaths caused by said treatment that exceed the elves' ability to breed fast enough.

The next part is assuming there are at least 50,000 elves being bred. Remember, you also have to take into account how long each birth takes and how easy it is to impregnate an elf. I'm pretty sure there is no mention of how long HH elves take to birth offspring or how easy they are to impregnate, so I will go off of general depiction, which is roughly the same as humans. The key is the ease of impregnation, which is generally MUCH harder than humans as elves are often depicted as almost impossible to get pregnant. There are multiple factors that play into the birth rate, not just the number being used as breeding stock. There WILL be failed attempts to breed due to some of these other factors and it WILL lower the total possible breeding rate. Even if you breed exactly 50,000 elves, it is still VERY possible to only get 100 offspring, which is such a low amount that it wouldn't even put a dent in the death rate.

Yes, half as long, so they only have half the amount of time to give for labor and that's only under treatment that allows them to live full lives. Like full elves, half elves won't live that long under severe enough mistreatment.

Sooner is not necessarily that long, even, as when I said sooner, I was taking into account the potential for death as a direct result of mistreatment, which as I said before, can make death come at any time, not just at a sooner point, but at any point. Their body could give out and they could die on the job one day all because they weren't given treatment that allowed them to survive.

No, there aren't always more. As large a population as they have, elves are still a finite resource that WILL be expended. Once the elves go extinct, what elves are they going to replace the dead ones with? There aren't any left at that point. Again, we're not just talking the reduction of lifespans, but potentially the outright ending of lives that, if the mistreatment continues, will result in no more elves being alive. This COULD happen over a long period of time, maybe several hundred years, or it COULD happen in the next decade because the elves were just in such bad shape that they started dying off on the job en masse. We're talking death by injury, death by stress, death by illness, any manner of death not caused by old age.

Depends on the type of elf, we are talking common and high, the dark elves don't live near as long, but yeah. ;)

It's the same thought process with minimum wage slaves, 'we can always get more trained monkeys', this is why they are always trying to limit education.

So far, she doesn't have much, and even in the end, she won't get all of it, maybe even between both sisters, they won't get all of it, but even if they each only get a small fraction by the end of her story, their family will have access to more money than some small countries, and with some good investments and a few successful endeavors, they could leverage that into more than enough money to fund a political revolution. Could even use Political Action Committees to hide who is funding it, so it won't hurt the company's "image" to the racist public.
Unless her father gives her more power at some point, possibly in preparation to take over when something happens that means his own reign is coming to an end. He could also just give it all to her thinking she'll continue it as it is or grow it to be bigger. He is the top brass there aside from possibly a board. Either way, I don't think money will be an issue once she gets her share, however small it may be, because, as you said, it would still be bigger than some small countries have and would be plenty to wage a political war, not an actual violent war, but a war fought in the political arena. With the amount she gets, she could probably buy out more than enough media coverage to effectively end her opponents before they can fight back.
 
  • Thinking Face
Reactions: TheDevian

TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
14,408
33,771
Like I said, they DO know better, but they don't care. The real world slavers and corporations know the risks and are doing it anyway. While different from not knowing any better, it has the same effect. Either way, people don't get treated right and that treatment, if left to continue, leads to injury or worse. As you said, you went through it, got hurt, and they just paid the fine instead of fixing the issue. Your employer didn't fail to notice the issue, they just chose not to change anything to get rid of it. The same is happening in game, the humans know perfectly well what this treatment will eventually result in for the elves and are choosing to continue said treatment.

People don't have to care about the company, or in the game's case Syl'anar's economy, to try to wring out maximum profit over the long term, they just have to care enough about profits that they see the long term benefit of keeping the assets in working condition, in this case keeping the elves alive, as that goes a long way in maximizing profits. Much farther than trying to milk the short term would. Here's the thing with investors, all they care about is the big dollar sign and they wouldn't be very pleased to realize that the company they invest in isn't taking the route that maximizes the money going into said investors' pockets. In fact, it would cause major turmoil for the company because the investors would be in an uproar. When the investors aren't happy, the board isn't happy and that cascades down the chain in a way that could lead to major layoffs. The thing preventing that in the real world, the investors don't know this is happening. They only see what they are told and that doesn't include the potential benefits of looking at the long term and acting on them. The same with the people who Cornwall was after with his reforms, they only see the facade, they don't see what is going on behind it, which is the mistreatment that could cost Syl'anar its economy.

I can see where you're coming from with the half elves, but that comes at the cost of longevity. They won't live nearly as long, mistreatment or no mistreatment, and that means less benefit in both the short and the long term. Forced breeding I could see and I did take that into account as a possibility, in fact, I'm almost certain the more radical owners are doing it off screen whether it is breeding the elves themselves to create half elves or lesser or pairing them to create full elves. However, as the mistreatment continues, breeding capability will also be affected much like how animal breeding is affected as animals of certain species are hunted. There may be some in captivity under breeding programs to repopulate the species, but those only have so much they can do because only so many pairs are being bred. The death rate in this real world example is already higher than the birth rate for many of the species in this kind of situation. Once the death rate exceeds the birth rate for the elves, the only fix is to lower the death rate, which means stopping the mistreatment. If the mistreatment continues, you may very well be proven wrong in the humans in charge now outlasting their elven slaves. This mistreatment, if I am correct, is raising the death rate, causing more elves to die earlier and earlier and they will continue to last for shorter and shorter periods of time as it continues, instead dying due to the effects of mistreatment. If they were allowed to live their full lives, even if as laborers, they would indeed last longer than the current generation of humans in Syl'anar, but the mistreatment could kill them at any point, even the very day the latest case of it occurs.

This isn't just potentially cutting elven lives in half, it could be outright ending elven lives in the immediate future. I'm not talking about slowly declining health from the mistreatment, though that is part of the issue, I'm talking mistreatment so bad that the elves just die right there as a direct result. Maybe a particularly radical owner likes to beat his elves, that could lead to death by blunt force trauma. I'm not saying it is happening, but what I am saying is that the effects of the mistreatment are not only long term, they CAN result in death in the immediate future for any given elf.

I love the way you think on that last part, that would be insanely effective aassumiing Cornwall doesn't already have a way to counter. Give them a bit of US election debate antics, smearing one candidate in an election while promoting another, and they won't know what hit them, especially if it is so well funded that our side has a monopoly on media time. If there's anything that wins an election, it's buying out as much media presence as possible.


What Extinction? The extinction of the elven race, of course. There are over a billion, but a billion is not infinity. Syl'anar does not have a source of labor that is both infinite and affordable. The androids could be considered infinite, but employing them in numbers large enough to support the economy of Syl'anar would be way too expensive and could not be maintained. The replacement of elves with androids would fall apart shortly after it was started because of the cost. They may be getting bred, but as I said above, once the death rate is higher than the birth rate can possibly be, then it is too late to rely on breeding, the only way at that point is to lower the death rate. There is also zero evidence to support that mistreatment isn't having an adverse effect on the elves' ability to live, causing the death rate to rise. We have no real evidence in either direction. That assertion is already true, every living creature dies at some point, so it is not a matter of if the elves die, it is a matter of when. Extinction is also inevitable as it is the end of a species, all species will have their time to die out, but when that happens can be adversely affected by the conditions the species lives in. For example, the elves being mistreated is a condition that hurries the extinction of the elven race through deaths caused by said treatment that exceed the elves' ability to breed fast enough.

The next part is assuming there are at least 50,000 elves being bred. Remember, you also have to take into account how long each birth takes and how easy it is to impregnate an elf. I'm pretty sure there is no mention of how long HH elves take to birth offspring or how easy they are to impregnate, so I will go off of general depiction, which is roughly the same as humans. The key is the ease of impregnation, which is generally MUCH harder than humans as elves are often depicted as almost impossible to get pregnant. There are multiple factors that play into the birth rate, not just the number being used as breeding stock. There WILL be failed attempts to breed due to some of these other factors and it WILL lower the total possible breeding rate. Even if you breed exactly 50,000 elves, it is still VERY possible to only get 100 offspring, which is such a low amount that it wouldn't even put a dent in the death rate.

Yes, half as long, so they only have half the amount of time to give for labor and that's only under treatment that allows them to live full lives. Like full elves, half elves won't live that long under severe enough mistreatment.

Sooner is not necessarily that long, even, as when I said sooner, I was taking into account the potential for death as a direct result of mistreatment, which as I said before, can make death come at any time, not just at a sooner point, but at any point. Their body could give out and they could die on the job one day all because they weren't given treatment that allowed them to survive.

No, there aren't always more. As large a population as they have, elves are still a finite resource that WILL be expended. Once the elves go extinct, what elves are they going to replace the dead ones with? There aren't any left at that point. Again, we're not just talking the reduction of lifespans, but potentially the outright ending of lives that, if the mistreatment continues, will result in no more elves being alive. This COULD happen over a long period of time, maybe several hundred years, or it COULD happen in the next decade because the elves were just in such bad shape that they started dying off on the job en masse. We're talking death by injury, death by stress, death by illness, any manner of death not caused by old age.


Unless her father gives her more power at some point, possibly in preparation to take over when something happens that means his own reign is coming to an end. He could also just give it all to her thinking she'll continue it as it is or grow it to be bigger. He is the top brass there aside from possibly a board. Either way, I don't think money will be an issue once she gets her share, however small it may be, because, as you said, it would still be bigger than some small countries have and would be plenty to wage a political war, not an actual violent war, but a war fought in the political arena. With the amount she gets, she could probably buy out more than enough media coverage to effectively end her opponents before they can fight back.
Yes, some know better, some don't, but they don't care, that is exactly my point. They only care about how it affects them in the here and now. Short term gain, outweighs any long term benefits. We see it all over the place. Their greed is killing us.

Again, this loss of longevity doesn't really affect them, as they will be dead long before that would matter. When talking about the common elves, Lin is about 300, which is the equivalent of 20ish of a human, meaning her natural lifespan would be 4-5 times that. Half of that for the half elf would still be 6-800 years.

You keep saying that the death rate is higher, but we have no evidence of that other than with the free elves, mostly due to being captured, and not being able to live that way. You can't raise a thriving society when you have to live in hiding and on the run. Unless I am forgetting something (very possible), I don't remember anything to show their population is declining.

Even if they are heading for extinction due to low birthrates, this is a long term problem, and we have shown that the people don't care about things that far into the future. Even if they shorten the elves' lives by 50-75% they still out live us by several generations.

--------------​

As for Kali, from what I remember, his plan is to start giving her power once she finishes school, and that will increase as she shows that she can handle it. I also would say that the MC could, at least in theory, be a possible figurehead, to help make decisions, leaving her to do what she loves (she has stated that she hates the business part of it). Better to see her grow into it, but she always has him there for support.

That said, even if she leaves running the company to the board, and just focuses on making things, living off of her stocks and other earnings, she will have more than enough to help fund a political campaign, we have seen similar examples in real life. I could give a long list, but that would get us too far into real world politics.
 

Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
370
What Extinction? The extinction of the elven race, of course.
Apparently, I wasn't clear. I knew you were refering to elven extinction; my question was intended to make you realise they're in absolutely no danger of being driven to extinction through their mistreatment. I thought that was clear, but here we are...

There are over a billion, but a billion is not infinity.
It doesn't need to be infnite, nor did I ever say it was; it simply needs to be sustainable, and we've seen no evidence that it isn't. On the contrary, we've been told that their population has grown tremendously while they've been enslaved (even during the period when they had fewer rights, and their mistreatment was far more acute), which is the exact opposite of your claim. It is a demonstrable fact of the setting that, while being terribly mistreated, the elven population gre from tens of millins to over a billion. That fact is incompatible with your assertion that their mistreatment is driving them to extinction.

but as I said above, once the death rate is higher than the birth rate can possibly be,
You might as well say "once the sun rises in the north and sets in the batman symbol". Again, they'd have to be getting murdered at the rate of tens of thousands every single day to even slow the population growth, let alone reverse it. There is no evidence the elven population is shrinking. Since the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim (i.e. you) you're the one who needs to present some evidence that their population is declining. Thus far, you've failed to do so, outside repetiton, which isn't particularly compelling evidence.

There is also zero evidence to support that mistreatment isn't having an adverse effect on the elves' ability to live,
First off, there doesn't actually need to be; you're the one making the claim that their extinction is imminent, so you're the one who needs to present evdence to that effect. I don't have to present evidence refuting your position; you need to present evidence supporting it.
Secondly, yes, there is. They've been mistreated since they were conquered, according to Lin they were treated far worse than they are being treated now, and yet their population has grown tremendously, from tens of millions to over a billion in only three centuries. If their mistreatment was having a negative affect on their ability to live, there'd be a whole lot less of them.

For example, the elves being mistreated is a condition that hurries the extinction of the elven race through deaths caused by said treatment that exceed the elves' ability to breed fast enough.
Nope. That'd only be true if the deaths caused by their mistreatment outstripped their ability to breed, and you've provided no evidence that's the case. If it were, then their population would have consistently declined over the centuries they were mistreated. The reverse happened, which means they must be procreating at a faster rate than they're being killed. It's pretty simple math. A - B = C; if C is a positive number, then A must be greater than B.

The next part is assuming there are at least 50,000 elves being bred.
Not quite; it's assuming an annual birthrate of 18.5 million (based on the human average of 18.5 per 1,000), which works out at roughly 50,500 per day. It's worth noting that was me erring on the side of caution, since it's more likely their birthrate is higher than the human average, because they're being breed like livestock; because they literally ARE livestock (as in, they're classed as "animals breed to produce labour").
They're also clearly not that difficult to impregnate, otherwise there wouldn't be over a billion of them. Elves in other fictional settings are often depicted as far less fertile than humans, but so what? This isn't the Silmarillion, they aren't Asur or Eldar, they're Harem Hotels elves, and only their traits mattter, not the traits of other settings. Given the number of them in this fictional setting, they cannot have a low birthrate. Again, it's pretty simple math. To grow from tens of millions to over a billion in 300 years, their birthrate simply cannot be lower than the human norm; it must, in fact, be noticeably higher.

Even if you breed exactly 50,000 elves, it is still VERY possible to only get 100 offspring, which is such a low amount that it wouldn't even put a dent in the death rate.
You don't seem to have understood what I was saying. I wasn't suggesting "breeding" 50,000 elves. I was pointing out that a billion elves would produce over 50,000 viable births per day, if they have the same birthrate as humans. If it's higher (which is likely, given how quickly their population grew to its current level) then they'd produce more.
It's also worth noting your math was way off; assuming an average procreation rate (18.5 per 1,000), then breeding 50,000 hypothetical elves would produce an average of 925 viable offspring in a year (the succesful procreation rate already accounts for non-viable pregnancies). You were off by nearly a full order of magnitude.

Yes, half as long, so they only have half the amount of time to give for labor...
Which is still vastly longer than their owner will live, and who gives a damn what happens to them after that? Owner X will only get labour out of their slaves until they (Owner X) dies; any labour past that point, be it a day or 500 years, is completely irrelevant to Owner X, since they never see any of the benefit of that labour (on account of the whole "being dead" situation). The hypothetical half elf might die at 250, instead of 500, but so what? Why should Owner X give a damn about those 250 years of lost labour that only becomes relevant two centuries after Owner X is dead and buried?

Their body could give out and they could die on the job one day all because they weren't given treatment that allowed them to survive.
So? Did their owner make more money out of working them to death than the cost of a new slave? If the answer is yes, then no harm, no foul. By working them to death, you make $5000 in a year. A new slave cost $1000. If you treated them well, you'd have made $3000 in that same year. Therefore, working them to death and then buying a new slave is more profitable that treating a slave well. The only cost is one dead elf, and who cares? There are always more elves.
I'm not sure why you're having such difficulty with the concept that people don't treat their slaves very well; it's a documented historical fact that people abused and mistreated slaves in the real-world, that many of them were worked to death in deplorable conditions, so why do you think the people in this fictional setting would do otherwise?

As large a population as they have, elves are still a finite resource that WILL be expended.
Only if more die in a year than are being born, and again, we've seen no evidence supporting such a supposition. Repeating a fallacious position doesn't make it less fallacious, no matter how often you repeat it.
 

Runey

Harem Hotel
Game Developer
May 17, 2018
3,965
20,011
Runey and I discussed this fairly recently. To me, "half-elf" means only one human parent and one elven parent, whether they be common elf, dark elf, desert elf or whatever. Runey, however, seems to consider "half elf" to be a colloquial shorthand for "half common elf" specifically. By his definition, Maria isn't a "half elf", she's a "half dark elf", which he regards as being noticeably different.
But, to the current topic, yes, I meant half common elf.
When I say half elf, it means half human, and half any elf. Those with drow DNA, regardless of the percentage, are known as Drowkin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDevian

alex2011

Conversation Conqueror
Feb 28, 2017
7,716
4,461
Yes, some know better, some don't, but they don't care, that is exactly my point. They only care about how it affects them in the here and now. Short term gain, outweighs any long term benefits. We see it all over the place. Their greed is killing us.

Again, this loss of longevity doesn't really affect them, as they will be dead long before that would matter. When talking about the common elves, Lin is about 300, which is the equivalent of 20ish of a human, meaning her natural lifespan would be 4-5 times that. Half of that for the half elf would still be 6-800 years.

You keep saying that the death rate is higher, but we have no evidence of that other than with the free elves, mostly due to being captured, and not being able to live that way. You can't raise a thriving society when you have to live in hiding and on the run. Unless I am forgetting something (very possible), I don't remember anything to show their population is declining.

Even if they are heading for extinction due to low birthrates, this is a long term problem, and we have shown that the people don't care about things that far into the future. Even if they shorten the elves' lives by 50-75% they still out live us by several generations.

--------------​

As for Kali, from what I remember, his plan is to start giving her power once she finishes school, and that will increase as she shows that she can handle it. I also would say that the MC could, at least in theory, be a possible figurehead, to help make decisions, leaving her to do what she loves (she has stated that she hates the business part of it). Better to see her grow into it, but she always has him there for support.

That said, even if she leaves running the company to the board, and just focuses on making things, living off of her stocks and other earnings, she will have more than enough to help fund a political campaign, we have seen similar examples in real life. I could give a long list, but that would get us too far into real world politics.
Yes, and a death because the elf was treated so poorly she couldn't survive would be in the short term. Like I said, we aren't talking death from built up issues, we're talking things that can take only a few years, not a few hundred, at most to kill.

The loss of longevity is but a secondary issue that affects only the long term unless it is reduced below a certain threshold, a threshold which is what I am referring to. If conditions are bad enough, it won't take all that long to start losing elf slaves.

I'm not saying the death rate actually is higher, what I'm saying is that, if this poor treatment continues, it will be and it won't take that long to get there.

The birth rate decline, which is not confirmed, would normally be a long term issue much like it is in some real world countries. However, as conditions continue to take their toll and elves die of things other than completely unpreventable causes, things their masters could have fixed long ago before it was a problem and chose to ignore, the birth rate decline would accelerate to a point where it would shift to a short term problem. This would not even be possible with an infinite resource, but elves are not infinite.

Knowing Kali, I'm sure she has a shot at a great deal of power coming from her father. She is pretty intelligent and seems to have some sense of how things would work in his position. I could definitely see the MC as a figurehead considering his connection to her, maybe even coming on as some sort of actual position with some authority. No way he would get something big, but I could maybe see him as some sort of consultant or regional head for Syl'anar operations while she focuses on overall operations. This would let her be more focused on the big picture while he focuses entirely on his little part of it so she doesn't have to keep her attention there. She could also have other similar positions for other outlying areas that could become more of a funding operation to be funneled into the political battle ahead. I would still consider the figurehead idea as more likely considering her feelings on the business.

The board might actually prove to be an issue if it happens, but it depends who is on it, whether they support her or the opposition. If they support Cornwall or another pro-slave candidate, I could very easily see her getting ousted by the board if she lets them know her position since she would become a threat to them if they were pro-slave. That said, you're right, she should still have enough personal funding even if it would be harder to fight a political battle against slavery.

Apparently, I wasn't clear. I knew you were refering to elven extinction; my question was intended to make you realise they're in absolutely no danger of being driven to extinction through their mistreatment. I thought that was clear, but here we are...


It doesn't need to be infnite, nor did I ever say it was; it simply needs to be sustainable, and we've seen no evidence that it isn't. On the contrary, we've been told that their population has grown tremendously while they've been enslaved (even during the period when they had fewer rights, and their mistreatment was far more acute), which is the exact opposite of your claim. It is a demonstrable fact of the setting that, while being terribly mistreated, the elven population gre from tens of millins to over a billion. That fact is incompatible with your assertion that their mistreatment is driving them to extinction.


You might as well say "once the sun rises in the north and sets in the batman symbol". Again, they'd have to be getting murdered at the rate of tens of thousands every single day to even slow the population growth, let alone reverse it. There is no evidence the elven population is shrinking. Since the burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim (i.e. you) you're the one who needs to present some evidence that their population is declining. Thus far, you've failed to do so, outside repetiton, which isn't particularly compelling evidence.


First off, there doesn't actually need to be; you're the one making the claim that their extinction is imminent, so you're the one who needs to present evdence to that effect. I don't have to present evidence refuting your position; you need to present evidence supporting it.
Secondly, yes, there is. They've been mistreated since they were conquered, according to Lin they were treated far worse than they are being treated now, and yet their population has grown tremendously, from tens of millions to over a billion in only three centuries. If their mistreatment was having a negative affect on their ability to live, there'd be a whole lot less of them.


Nope. That'd only be true if the deaths caused by their mistreatment outstripped their ability to breed, and you've provided no evidence that's the case. If it were, then their population would have consistently declined over the centuries they were mistreated. The reverse happened, which means they must be procreating at a faster rate than they're being killed. It's pretty simple math. A - B = C; if C is a positive number, then A must be greater than B.


Not quite; it's assuming an annual birthrate of 18.5 million (based on the human average of 18.5 per 1,000), which works out at roughly 50,500 per day. It's worth noting that was me erring on the side of caution, since it's more likely their birthrate is higher than the human average, because they're being breed like livestock; because they literally ARE livestock (as in, they're classed as "animals breed to produce labour").
They're also clearly not that difficult to impregnate, otherwise there wouldn't be over a billion of them. Elves in other fictional settings are often depicted as far less fertile than humans, but so what? This isn't the Silmarillion, they aren't Asur or Eldar, they're Harem Hotels elves, and only their traits mattter, not the traits of other settings. Given the number of them in this fictional setting, they cannot have a low birthrate. Again, it's pretty simple math. To grow from tens of millions to over a billion in 300 years, their birthrate simply cannot be lower than the human norm; it must, in fact, be noticeably higher.


You don't seem to have understood what I was saying. I wasn't suggesting "breeding" 50,000 elves. I was pointing out that a billion elves would produce over 50,000 viable births per day, if they have the same birthrate as humans. If it's higher (which is likely, given how quickly their population grew to its current level) then they'd produce more.
It's also worth noting your math was way off; assuming an average procreation rate (18.5 per 1,000), then breeding 50,000 hypothetical elves would produce an average of 925 viable offspring in a year (the succesful procreation rate already accounts for non-viable pregnancies). You were off by nearly a full order of magnitude.


Which is still vastly longer than their owner will live, and who gives a damn what happens to them after that? Owner X will only get labour out of their slaves until they (Owner X) dies; any labour past that point, be it a day or 500 years, is completely irrelevant to Owner X, since they never see any of the benefit of that labour (on account of the whole "being dead" situation). The hypothetical half elf might die at 250, instead of 500, but so what? Why should Owner X give a damn about those 250 years of lost labour that only becomes relevant two centuries after Owner X is dead and buried?


So? Did their owner make more money out of working them to death than the cost of a new slave? If the answer is yes, then no harm, no foul. By working them to death, you make $5000 in a year. A new slave cost $1000. If you treated them well, you'd have made $3000 in that same year. Therefore, working them to death and then buying a new slave is more profitable that treating a slave well. The only cost is one dead elf, and who cares? There are always more elves.
I'm not sure why you're having such difficulty with the concept that people don't treat their slaves very well; it's a documented historical fact that people abused and mistreated slaves in the real-world, that many of them were worked to death in deplorable conditions, so why do you think the people in this fictional setting would do otherwise?


Only if more die in a year than are being born, and again, we've seen no evidence supporting such a supposition. Repeating a fallacious position doesn't make it less fallacious, no matter how often you repeat it.
They aren't? How are you so sure? Where are the stats that prove elves aren't already dying from the conditions they are kept in? If conditions are bad enough, yes, they will start dying off, and if breeding can't keep up, they go extinct. Eventually, breeding won't be enough unless ALL elves are diverted to breeding, which then means no elves are working their normal economy supporting duties. That would grind the economy to a halt with no extinction necessary.

In order for something to not be expended eventually, yes, it does need to be infinite. The elves are not and they are living under conditions that pose a threat to them. They will all die off eventually whether the humans like it or not. What the humans are doing is making the 'when' of that event sooner by exposing the elves to the potential for death by effect of the conditions they live in, which isn't long term, that could happen in a decade or less if the humans aren't careful. That's the furthest thing from sustainable, sustainable would be keeping the elves in at least the minimal conditions required to keep them alive throughout their natural lives. The elves are going through population growth now, but that may change depending on if things continue to deteriorate or not. I never said it was now driving them to extinction, I said it would if things continue as they have.

Which it very well could outstrip said ability, keep in mind that all of these arguments are future tense, not distant future, but not the present. This is something that hasn't happened, but easily could.

As for the difficulty in impregnation, is there any indication how long it took to get that population level? It certainly wasn't overnight, not saying you said that. The fact that there are billions doesn't speak for ease of impregnation unless it happened over a short period and that means they would be even easier than humans to impregnate if true. On the 'so what' part, I was using the common depiction due to a lack of HH specifc biological statistics on elf breeding. Without numbers specific to HH, the only thing I have to go on is how elves are normally portrayed IF something goes into that much detail. Humans just aren't a good stand in for a fantasy race in these things.

No, I understood you meant 50,000 offspring from a billion elves, what I said was using my own numbers. It is still entirely possible, and actually highly likely, you won't get a 1:1 birth rate off a specified number of bred elves and the ratio is actually more likely to be quite a bit lower. That was my point. This was accountiing for other issues that affect most, if not all beings in birthing including conditions that could result in the pregnancy not being viable either under normal parameters or the pregnancy going fine and the offspring not being viable for the labor force for some reason and also took into account that these are not humans we are talking about and, as far as anyone knows, they don't have the same birth capability.

Vastly longer if allowed to exist for that long, but conditions may take them out of the labor force before then either by disability or death, that's what I've been saying with each section about the end of life for any given elf, they could die from conditions in their enslavement that would prevent living anywhere near their full lifespan, as I said, they could last maybe a decade or less, maybe more before something ends them that could have been prevented if their oh so great master had given them the minimal level of treatment, at least, that would have kept that from happening.

And if the answer is no, the former owner has now taken the one thing they definitely wanted to avoid, a financial loss. What if they run iinto a situation where all the available slaves are basically Sylvia priced, you know, super high price that we, the player, had to grind out to get to? That's a pretty big loss to take and I'm pretty sure that isn't even considered viable in the short term. They are at the mercy of the market in that situation and the market can be brutal at times, especially if its a slave labor market.

We don't have evidence of it now, but remember, these are future tense arguments. They are not what is happening, they are what the future holds if things keep going downhill. I just hope the MC and his harem can stop it before that happens. As much as I would love to see the slave market coming crashing down in a chaotic inferno, figurative inferno even though I am fully in support of backing Nia's approach to the situation, I would rather not have that happen at the expense of elven lives.

*blatant hint to drop the arguement*
So, on a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate each characters breasts?
Lin and Ashley are 10s, the rest are 1s except android, who is a special case because of her size changing ability. If you can't tell by that, I prefer smaller ones and always take the android's small option in applicable scenes for size change. If this was a rating of a different sort, there would be much more variation in numbers.

Kali's are the breast and I will accept no alternatives in this matter.
Pun intended.
I see what you did there.
 

TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
14,408
33,771
Yes, and a death because the elf was treated so poorly she couldn't survive would be in the short term. Like I said, we aren't talking death from built up issues, we're talking things that can take only a few years, not a few hundred, at most to kill.

The loss of longevity is but a secondary issue that affects only the long term unless it is reduced below a certain threshold, a threshold which is what I am referring to. If conditions are bad enough, it won't take all that long to start losing elf slaves.

I'm not saying the death rate actually is higher, what I'm saying is that, if this poor treatment continues, it will be and it won't take that long to get there.

The birth rate decline, which is not confirmed, would normally be a long term issue much like it is in some real world countries. However, as conditions continue to take their toll and elves die of things other than completely unpreventable causes, things their masters could have fixed long ago before it was a problem and chose to ignore, the birth rate decline would accelerate to a point where it would shift to a short term problem. This would not even be possible with an infinite resource, but elves are not infinite.

Knowing Kali, I'm sure she has a shot at a great deal of power coming from her father. She is pretty intelligent and seems to have some sense of how things would work in his position. I could definitely see the MC as a figurehead considering his connection to her, maybe even coming on as some sort of actual position with some authority. No way he would get something big, but I could maybe see him as some sort of consultant or regional head for Syl'anar operations while she focuses on overall operations. This would let her be more focused on the big picture while he focuses entirely on his little part of it so she doesn't have to keep her attention there. She could also have other similar positions for other outlying areas that could become more of a funding operation to be funneled into the political battle ahead. I would still consider the figurehead idea as more likely considering her feelings on the business.

The board might actually prove to be an issue if it happens, but it depends who is on it, whether they support her or the opposition. If they support Cornwall or another pro-slave candidate, I could very easily see her getting ousted by the board if she lets them know her position since she would become a threat to them if they were pro-slave. That said, you're right, she should still have enough personal funding even if it would be harder to fight a political battle against slavery.
Yes, short term, but not a problem, because they can always get more, or at the very least, have enough not to miss them. Just like my old bosses didn't care about hurting me, they just hired some other monkey to do that job, even if they had to hire 3 people, they still didn't care. The same thing happens to people every day. Most corporations, don't give two shits about their people, we have seen ample examples of that over the last two years alone.

Unless they keep breeding them like cattle.

IF the birthrate declined, but we don't know that is a factor... You keep using that point, but we don't have any reason to think that is true.

---​

She could appoint him to whatever job she wanted if she were the one in charge (or get her father to do it).

If there is a board, and she is a majority stockholder, they can't do anything to her. They can only have a say in what she does, if she is the one running the company, and even then, only if it is public knowledge. They can't tell a stockholder what to do, any more than I can tell you what to do.
 
Last edited:

alex2011

Conversation Conqueror
Feb 28, 2017
7,716
4,461
Yes, short term, but not a problem, because they can always get more, or at the very least, have enough not to miss them. Just like my old bosses didn't care about hurting me, they just hired some other monkey to do that job, even if they had to hire 3 people, they still didn't care. The same thing happens to people every day. Most corporations, don't give two shits about their people, we have seen ample examples of that over the last two years alone.

Unless they keep breeding them like cattle.

IF the birthrate declined, but we don't know that is a factor... You keep using that point, but we don't have any reason to think that is true.

---​

She could appoint him to whatever job she wanted if she were the one in charge (or get her father to do it).

If there is a board, and she is a majority stockholder, they can't do anything to her. They can only have a say in what she does, if she is the one running the company, and even then, only if it is public knowledge. They can't tell a stockholder what to do, any more than I can tell you what to do.
They can get more until they take losses too heavy to afford more, because the loss of the previous one was too much to overcome like with a particularly valuable slave, or the supply runs out. Then it's all over with no way to recover.

I keep using that point in the future tense, it may not being happening yet, but if conditions continue as they are, it will begin to happen and that will become a factor.

She could, as long as there isn't a board of directors reigning in her power that acts sort of like the US Senate in confirming her choices for positions. If that happens, she may find it tough to get who she wants where she wants. That said, she's smart, so I'm sure she will find a way even around that issue IF it comes up. We still don't know how it will play out. Like the other issue, there are a ton of unknowns that make it extremely difficult to determine for sure.
 

TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
14,408
33,771
They can get more until they take losses too heavy to afford more, because the loss of the previous one was too much to overcome like with a particularly valuable slave, or the supply runs out. Then it's all over with no way to recover.

I keep using that point in the future tense, it may not being happening yet, but if conditions continue as they are, it will begin to happen and that will become a factor.

She could, as long as there isn't a board of directors reigning in her power that acts sort of like the US Senate in confirming her choices for positions. If that happens, she may find it tough to get who she wants where she wants. That said, she's smart, so I'm sure she will find a way even around that issue IF it comes up. We still don't know how it will play out. Like the other issue, there are a ton of unknowns that make it extremely difficult to determine for sure.
I thought it should be obvious, but of course you are not going to use your well trained/skilled slaves to do dangerous jobs, you send in the 'grunts' for that shit. You don't send your courtesan to the front line, and you don't ask a doctor to deliver your newspaper.

"If things keep happening as they are..."
This is the part we are taking issue with, for all we know, the birth rate could be much higher than the death rate, as far as we know 'if things keep happening as they are now', could mean that the elf population continues to grow. That is the whole thing, your main point hinges on this one factor that may or may not be true. Pure speculation. And even if it were true, it is something that could easily be mitigated.

Yeah, if there is a board, it could potentially stop her from appointing the player, but not what she does with her money.
 
Last edited:

PrimeX

I will impreggy your mommy
Donor
May 21, 2019
365
456
Last I played this was around two years ago at version 0.7.2 now I've just finished the latest build starting from the beginning and took me around 20 hours and I love it. Except for one thing. What the hell man 2 years and there's nowhere near enough scenes with my best gal Ellen. :cry: Keep it up though dev, love your work just please gimme more Ellen!
 
  • Heart
  • Like
Reactions: Dringar and Runey

alex2011

Conversation Conqueror
Feb 28, 2017
7,716
4,461
I thought it should be obvious, but of course you are not going to use your well trained/skilled slaves to do dangerous jobs, you send in the 'grunts' for that shit. You don't send your courtesan to the front line, and you don't ask a doctor to deliver your newspaper.

"If things keep happening as they are..."
This is the part we are taking issue with, for all we know, the birth rate could be much higher than the death rate, as far as we know 'if things keep happening as they are now', could mean that the elf population continues to grow. That is the whole thing, your main point hinges on this one factor that may or may not be true. Pure speculation. And even if it were true, it is something that could easily be mitigated.

Yeah, if there is a board, it could potentially stop her from appointing the player, but not what she does with her money.
Grunts, high value slaves, either way a slave dies if something happens to cause it and they end up needing replaced. It doesn't even have to be on a high risk job, they are being mistreated, so I doubt they are in peak health.

You're right, it is pure speculation, as is any point that has no basis on events that have already happened or that is based around details that have never been given. That's all I ever do when not talking about things that have already happened, speculation, because that's all there is to do with such things.

Very true, Kali would still have control of her money, just not necessarily company assets. It might be less than if company assets were in play, but I don't think Kali would have any problem waging a political battle on any opponent...unless that opponent is actually a group formed from multiple of said opponents specifically to stop her anti-slavery effort. However, that is a different matter entirely.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Corvus Belli

Gnarlywonder

Member
Aug 19, 2021
106
61
1.Since this is such a huge thread and im overwhelmed searching (im on page 1200 so far) could someone post or reply to my comment with a download link for android preferably the latest version

(hopefully with a wt mod already )

(android 11 doesn't allow users to edit any of the storage/emulated0/android/data and i only have a phone):cry::cry:
 

c3p0

Forum Fanatic
Respected User
Nov 20, 2017
5,583
13,259
1.Since this is such a huge thread and im overwhelmed searching (im on page 1200 so far) could someone post or reply to my comment with a download link for android preferably the latest version

(hopefully with a wt mod already )

(android 11 doesn't allow users to edit any of the storage/emulated0/android/data and i only have a phone):cry::cry:
I can't do that. A special Android version isn't official provided anymore due difficulties of the Android version.
So either use the approach with Joyplay (links are in the first post of this thread) or use an unofficial Android version, although I don't see a 0.13.2 Android version at all.
 

Gnarlywonder

Member
Aug 19, 2021
106
61
With joy play does it have to be the windows version ? Ive tryed joyplay a few times and never am able to get it to work . I think it has something to do with the exe file i try im too noob for life *lil lol*
 

TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
14,408
33,771
Grunts, high value slaves, either way a slave dies if something happens to cause it and they end up needing replaced. It doesn't even have to be on a high risk job, they are being mistreated, so I doubt they are in peak health.

You're right, it is pure speculation, as is any point that has no basis on events that have already happened or that is based around details that have never been given. That's all I ever do when not talking about things that have already happened, speculation, because that's all there is to do with such things.

Very true, Kali would still have control of her money, just not necessarily company assets. It might be less than if company assets were in play, but I don't think Kali would have any problem waging a political battle on any opponent...unless that opponent is actually a group formed from multiple of said opponents specifically to stop her anti-slavery effort. However, that is a different matter entirely.
Yes, they have to be replaced, that is why we have them breeding. For all we know, they are making far more babies then they are killing off, and we can say this is as much a fact as the opposite, which is to say, not at all.

I do the same, but we need to have some reason for it, and this is one that can easily be explained away. If it did become a problem, there are easy way to fix it, and half-elves are a good stop gap. So, unless Runey comes out and says it's a problem, we have to assume that it is at least not enough of one to be a problem in our lifetime.

-----​

The difference here is that she could anonymously fund a shadow campaign of ads, spreading an anti slavery message, or use another to just target pro-slavery candidates, making them look bad, without ever coming out for anyone. It could be done in a way that the money is almost untraceable, and no one would be any the wiser.

She could also privately support Vanessa or anyone else to run against the establishment, or not, simply by making the alternative look so bad in every other way, the less evil people will be more likely to be elected either way.
With joy play does it have to be the windows version ? Ive tryed joyplay a few times and never am able to get it to work . I think it has something to do with the exe file i try im too noob for life *lil lol*
Yes, you have to use the Windows version for Joiplay.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Corvus Belli
4.70 star(s) 471 Votes