VN Ren'Py Harem Hotel [v0.18 Beta3] [Runey]

[DigDug69]

You being wrong does not mean I need to study history, chief.


I didn't say otherwise. I said the similarities weren't much deeper than "both benefit financial from slavery."


Again, I didn't say otherwise. "Both benefit from slavery in a material way" does not mean "both are the same." Which part of this are you having difficulty with?

My last post on this.
If you go back and look at my posts, you will see that I said that they were "ALMOST" or "NEARLY" identical, not that they were identical.

Have fun, but I am growing bored with this.

 

[Corvus Belli]

My last post on this.
If you go back and look at my posts, you will see that I said that they were "ALMOST" or "NEARLY" identical, not that they were identical.

But they're not "NEARLY identical." They are, in fact, quite different. Simply put, you are wrong. The end.

 

[TheDevian]

I didn't read everything, not enough time, but a couple points, sorry if I missed where they were mentioned...

The issue is that even if they can be bred quickly, it takes over a century before an elf is the equivalent of a 10 year old human. Any elf born since the most recent slave uprisng is still a child, even if they were born the day after the uprising ended.
How quickly you can produce an elf, and how quickly you can produce an elf capable of being used for thewir labour, are different things. On the other hand, a robot is good to go the moment it rolls off the assembly line; they can be put to work from day 1, while an elf that you bred might be "work capable" when your great grandchildren are old enough to vote.

This was (at least at one point), why they were pushing the half elf slaves, and don't really care about the full elves, and why they have rights, and the half elves don't.

Yes, exactly my point. When "poverty level" is synonymous with "can't even afford a slave", it kind of suggests they're pretty commonplace.

Ashley's family had one because the state gave her to them, as a from of child care for the poor, the idea being that the parents can both go work, and their kids will still be cared for. This is why they lost her when Ashley moved out, or turned 18, or something like that (something that really upset her father).

That said, IIRC, the cheapest slaves are around 500 syls, which is about $3500us. While not the most affordable thing, with a loan, or payment plan, it is within reason for all but the poorest of households. It would be like any other major appliance. Anyone from lower middle class on up should be able to afford at least one. If you can own a washing machine, buy a big screen tv, or something like that, then you could get one, but you do still need to support them, food, room and board, etc. Like maintenance on some other equipment.

But you know, it could be worse, think about what it would be like if we had Rosie instead of our Cynetic maid.


No thanks, I don't want a BJ anyway, thanks for the offer...

 

[Corvus Belli]

I didn't read everything, not enough time, but a couple points, sorry if I missed where they were mentioned...This was (at least at one point), why they were pushing the half elf slaves, and don't really care about the full elves, and why they have rights, and the half elves don't.

True, but half-elves still mature at about 1/7th the rate of a human. So instead of it taking 270 years for them to become the equivalnet of an 18 year old, it only takes 135 years. That's a notable reduction, but it doesn't really address the whole "takes longer than an entire human life span for them to mature" issue.

That said, IIRC, the cheapest slaves are around 500 syls, which is about $3500us. While not the most affordable thing, with a loan, or payment plan, it is within reason for all but the poorest of households. It would be like any other major appliance. Anyone from lower middle class on up should be able to afford at least one. If you can own a washing machine, buy a big screen tv, or something like that, then you could get one, but you do still need to support them, food, room and board, etc. Like maintenance on some other equipment.

Exactly my point. They're not priced outside the range of an average family, and they provide a notable benefit in terms of convenience for that family, but with monthly operating costs; kind of like a car, which is why I think cars work as a decent comparison. An initial upfront cost that's achievable for people on a lower income after a few months saving or a decent payment plan (and is less than the monthly disposable income for those with well-paying jobs), and then a vastly smaller monthly maintenance cost (food costs, primarily), and you never need to do any housework ever again.
They're also less than 500 syls. At the beach auction, you see three elves being sold, the cheapest of whom was priced at a starting bid of 200 syls, and ultimately sold for 320 (I think).

Let's try this for example; how many people in this thread would be willing to pay a $3500 one-off cost and then food costs every month, to be able to have a real-life Lin living with them, with all the benefits that entails? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of people would call that a bargain, in both the real world, and in Syl'anar.

 

[Quetzzz]

No thanks, I don't want a BJ anyway, thanks for the offer...

Oh c'mon... You haven't lived until you've gotten a BJ from a vacuum cleaner at least once.

 

[TheDevian]

True, but half-elves still mature at about 1/7th the rate of a human. So instead of it taking 270 years for them to become the equivalnet of an 18 year old, it only takes 135 years. That's a notable reduction, but it doesn't really address the whole "takes longer than an entire human life span for them to mature" issue.

Some, yes, but some, like Maria and Hana, age at the same rate as a human, at least in their early years.

Exactly my point. They're not priced outside the range of an average family, and they provide a notable benefit in terms of convenience for that family, but with monthly operating costs; kind of like a car, which is why I think cars work as a decent comparison. An initial upfront cost that's achievable for people on a lower income after a few months saving or a decent payment plan (and is less than the monthly disposable income for those with well-paying jobs), and then a vastly smaller monthly maintenance cost (food costs, primarily), and you never need to do any housework ever again.
They're also less than 500 syls. At the beach auction, you see three elves being sold, the cheapest of whom was priced at a starting bid of 200 syls, and ultimately sold for 320 (I think).

Let's try this for example; how many people in this thread would be willing to pay a $3500 one-off cost and then food costs every month, to be able to have a real-life Lin living with them, with all the benefits that entails? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say a lot of people would call that a bargain, in both the real world, and in Syl'anar.

Yeah, you can't blame the people at the bottom from doing what they can to make their lives better, in whatever way is socially acceptable. Most people are not going to rock the boat, they only want their own piece of the pie. It comes down to the people in charge, the people who rule the government, the church, and schools.

The androids have a lot higher per unit cost, but they have a much lower operation cost, keep them charged, turn them off when not in use, store them in a closet. Enough solar panels or something, all you need to do is replace any parts that might wear out.

What you need to change a system like this is a strong leader, to make the tough decisions, and a lot of work to change the minds of the masses. Impactful leaders don't follow trends, they don't go with the flow, or listen to focus groups, or worry about themselves. The best leaders do what it right, no matter the cost to them, or anyone who doesn't have their people's best interests at heart. And no matter what most people in Syl'anar might believe...

​

 

[Corvus Belli]

Some, yes, but some, like Maria and Hana, age at the same rate as a human, at least in their early years.

The former is half-dark elf, so 3.5 times the lifespan of a human (dark elves have half the lifespan of common elves, and half-dark elves have half that lifespan, which works out at about 3.5 times the lifespan of a human) and apparently mature at the same rate as a human, up to a point (but will likely still live to be over 200). The latter has an unusal combination of genetic heritage, combining human, common elf, and high elf ancestry. Runey said that combination resulted in a reduced lifespan than would be expected for a half-elf, roughly comparable to a half-dark elf.
So, in theory, the best bet would be to breed huge numbers of half-dark elves, but you'll still be waiting over a decade before they're useful as slaves.

 

[IAmNotEvil]

Spoiler: some thoughts about the church

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[Quetzzz]

Spoiler: some thoughts about the church

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I think this game strikes a good balance between the corruption of an institution and dissenting voices from within. While playing, I often got confused about what the stance of the church on slavery was, until the current end-game.
It is interesting that there's actual proof of miracles and supernatural activity in the Harem Hotel world. Though it still remains a mystery what the motivation of these supernatural creatures is. It's clear they don't like Elves, which makes me wonder if they're old/banished enemies of the Seldarine.

 

[TheDevian]

The former is half-dark elf, so 3.5 times the lifespan of a human (dark elves have half the lifespan of common elves, and half-dark elves have half that lifespan, which works out at about 3.5 times the lifespan of a human) and apparently mature at the same rate as a human, up to a point (but will likely still live to be over 200). The latter has an unusal combination of genetic heritage, combining human, common elf, and high elf ancestry. Runey said that combination resulted in a reduced lifespan than would be expected for a half-elf, roughly comparable to a half-dark elf.
So, in theory, the best bet would be to breed huge numbers of half-dark elves, but you'll still be waiting over a decade before they're useful as slaves.

A decade or two is not that long in the greater scheme. At least, not if you are thinking big picture.
Note that dark elves are also the horniest, maybe because they need to breed more than the others, but it works out well for their plans.

Add to that the fact that by the time any of the problems come from this, the people who are in charge will be long dead, and it will be some else's problem.

Spoiler: some thoughts about the church

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I agree, Delilah is horrible, she is one of the main reasons it took me more than a week to manage to finish that scene. She is one of the top ones on my list of people I want to spank in this game.

Yeah, ever since we 'adopted' Sylvia, I have been pushing for us to learn the language, I hope one day we will finally take the time to do it. It would give us a lot of options, and it just makes sense, it could be a Maria event, since she would want to learn too, given her situation.

Remember, this is not Christianity in this game (or any Abrahamic religion), even if there are some similarities to it and other real world religions. The world in this game is a dark, exaggerated picture, based on tropes and other examples of extremists of all types. We have to be careful talking about real world religions here, it is only allowed when using it to relate to the game, but if you do want to discuss it outside of the game related aspects, feel free to send me a pm sometime.

I think this game strikes a good balance between the corruption of an institution and dissenting voices from within. While playing, I often got confused about what the stance of the church on slavery was, until the current end-game.
It is interesting that there's actual proof of miracles and supernatural activity in the Harem Hotel world. Though it still remains a mystery what the motivation of these supernatural creatures is. It's clear they don't like Elves, which makes me wonder if they're old/banished enemies of the Seldarine.

Well, we don't know for sure how real the supernatural elements are, or if they are just another form of technology, it is hard to even say where the fairies' abilities land on that scale. What we do know is that any technology that is advanced enough, would seem like magic to someone who does not understand it.

 

[Quetzzz]

Well, we don't know for sure how real the supernatural elements are, or if they are just another form of technology, it is hard to even say where the fairies' abilities land on that scale. What we do know is that any technology that is advanced enough, would seem like magic to someone who does not understand it.

Magic vs technology is beside the point in this case, I think. We, the player, experienced what Autumn did. It gives a lot of credence to (at least the origins) of her religion. It just means that the people who undergo certain rituals, get proof of the existence of whatever they worship. They'll accept it as proof of that, even if, in reality, it's aliens communicating through crystals and microwaves. The 4 staves are probably very convincing for most people as well. The MC is in a unique position, with his knowledge about magical stones, having more context to potentially explain their existence.

 

[TheDevian]

Magic vs technology is beside the point in this case, I think. We, the player, experienced what Autumn did. It gives a lot of credence to (at least the origins) of her religion. It just means that the people who undergo certain rituals, get proof of the existence of whatever they worship. They'll accept it as proof of that, even if, in reality, it's aliens communicating through crystals and microwaves. The 4 staves are probably very convincing for most people as well. The MC is in a unique position, with his knowledge about magical stones, having more context to potentially explain their existence.

We did not witness what she did, we witnessed her doing it, that's not the same thing. lol.

What she saw, could well have been another type of fairy and whatnot (they just have bigger crystals). You are right that there is some validity to them, more than most today here, but calling it 'magic' might be an overstatement. Hard to say from what we know so far, but I assume we will find out one of these days. The real question is what are we going to do with that information when we get it?

 

[Quetzzz]

We did not witness what she did, we witnessed her doing it, that's not the same thing. lol.

The player witnessed what she experienced, the MC witnessed her actions. However, if what we (the player) witnessed isn't of the "unreliable narrator"-variety, then we can take it at face value, same for Autumn's interpretation of it. (Although Autumn said to Hazel that she didn't have a choice for picking Freedom. I'm not sure if this is a lie, an "it immediately felt right"-figure-of-speech, or a mistake.)
That said, if "magic" is governed by natural laws, it's conceivable that technology can be used to manipulate it, pretty much what you and Arthur say. So I agree that there isn't really a distinction at all, at least from a secular point of view.

 

[TheDevian]

The player witnessed what she experienced, the MC witnessed her actions. However, if what we (the player) witnessed isn't of the "unreliable narrator"-variety, then we can take it at face value, same for Autumn's interpretation of it. (Although Autumn said to Hazel that she didn't have a choice for picking Freedom. I'm not sure if this is a lie, an "it immediately felt right"-figure-of-speech, or a mistake.)
That said, if "magic" is governed by natural laws, it's conceivable that technology can be used to manipulate it, pretty much what you and Arthur say. So I agree that there isn't really a distinction at all, at least from a secular point of view.

Even taking it at face value, it can easily be explained away with what we know about the world, the people who live there, and their 'magic' crystals. That is one of the largest crystals we have ever seen, and that tree is basically growing out of it. It could easily be another species of fairies, or something similar, who use the power of that crystal to deceive humans and elves and keep their society safe. They saw what the humans did to the elves, they saw what the elves did to them/their cousins, and they decided to say fuck it, and use their abilities to make the humans and elves think they are gods, in order to keep themselves safe.

 

[Quetzzz]

Even taking it at face value, it can easily be explained away with what we know about the world, the people who live there, and their 'magic' crystals. That is one of the largest crystals we have ever seen, and that tree is basically growing out of it. It could easily be another species of fairies, or something similar,

Sure, I agree with all of that. But regardless of how we can explain it away, or how the story/game might do it... At this moment, for Autumn and Hazel, it's a profound religious experience that gives them proof of their beliefs. Even if they're being manipulated by that belief.

They saw what the humans did to the elves, they saw what the elves did to them/their cousins, and they decided to say fuck it, and use their abilities to make the humans and elves think they are gods, in order to keep themselves safe.

If I'm not mistaking, the religion predates the discovery of the Elves. That said, I do think that these entities are worrying about their own safety right now, which is their motivation for genociding the Elves.

 

[The_Melchior]

Many people who talk about their ancestors in the confederacy scream that their ancestors never owned a slave, and did not fight to protect slavery.
The truth is, that most of their ancestors, did not in fact own slaves, but those who fought, did fight for a government that was fighting to protect slavery for the same reason that the government in the game was.
Whether that was the persons stated reason for fighting, or not. They did fight for a government, that was hellbent on protecting slavery.
Their economy heavily depends on slavery.
Take away the slavery, and the economy will collapse.
Those rich people who actually owned the slaves, and were often connected in some way to high level public officials and were often those very same high level public officials, who risked losing everything if the government chose not to protect slavery.
Even in the south, slaves were far too expensive for the common family to own, but then, the vast majority of the slaves were owned by the rich plantation owners, and not the common people.
The case would be similar in the game.
The vast majority of the slaves would be owned by the elite and big business, with the businesses such as factory's, farms and mines owning the majority of those.


I use the confederacy for comparisons, because the parallels with slavery in the game are nearly identical.

I would point out that while many can say their ancestor who fought for the Confederacy didn't own slaves, they doubtless still depended on them: Slaves were often rented from plantations for field work by poorer landowners. Furthermore said non-slaveowners would be completely dependent on the nearby plantation for other resources such as a Smithy, grain milling, and more. Almost all of these services were cheaper due to the use of slavery.

For the Desert Elves, I'm going to say its probably just a case of not being worth the effort. An attack to enslave the tribes might net a few hundred slaves, but it would require a logistics train (transportation, capture, firepower) in the desert that could be expensive. This is assuming that it doesn't end in a massacre that even some of the pro-slaver types might wince at.
The slaves you gain would probably be considered lower value compared to the other slaves on the market in the modern age.

I'm betting the raiders did the math and found it was more profitable to extort them than capture all of them.

 

[TheDevian]

Sure, I agree with all of that. But regardless of how we can explain it away, or how the story/game might do it... At this moment, for Autumn and Hazel, it's a profound religious experience that gives them proof of their beliefs. Even if they're being manipulated by that belief.


If I'm not mistaking, the religion predates the discovery of the Elves. That said, I do think that these entities are worrying about their own safety right now, which is their motivation for genociding the Elves.

Another real world example, some native Americans used hallucinogenics in their rituals. They certainly had experiences thanks to those rituals (actually, this is true in the cases of many religions, but that is another story). It might also be part of why their religions have so much in common.

Yeah, the religion did exist before coming to the new land, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't changed then, or that the 'fairies' or whatever didn't use that against them. The elves' religion had to be even older, since they are, but still, they could have used that against them, or maybe they were already doing something like that with the elves, when they humans got there, and just added to it.

'Fairies', turning invisible, spies on the religious leaders, learn their myths, and use them against them. Simple. Hell, there could have even been some of the 'cherubs' were the fairies of the 'old world' who secretly traveled with the missionaries as part of their work.

There are a lot of ways it could be, but we need more info. to know for sure. XD

If my idea about this being a group of 'fairies' or something similar, using the religion to manipulate people, is accurate, it could also be that this has been going on forever, and this is one of the secrets that the high elf queen is hiding, by controlling her group of fairies, but the ones manipulating the humans were able to stay hidden, thanks to humans not living as long.

IDK, there are so many ways this could be happening.

 

[Quetzzz]

If my idea about this being a group of 'fairies' or something similar, using the religion to manipulate people, is accurate, it could also be that this has been going on forever, and this is one of the secrets that the high elf queen is hiding, by controlling her group of fairies, but the ones manipulating the humans were able to stay hidden, thanks to humans not living as long.

I think you're on to something.
My biggest question at this point, is if the human gods and elvish Seldarine are the same species. Maybe they're competing for worshipers (like in American Gods, the way the Owl Clan talked about aspects reminded me of this). Or maybe the hatred/fear of Gaius' side towards Elves makes them Orcs? It being an American Gods-style transfer of energy through "belief", could explain why the Elvish Queen was propped up as a believer of Gaius, to take wind out of the sails of the Seldarine.

Even in this case, "belief" doesn't have to be religious. Like fairies can control their crystals with thought, it's not that far-fetched that prayer and belief interact with other power sources or even other dimensions.

 

[DigDug69]

Religion is essentially the worlds oldest con.

The earliest vending machine was invented by a man named Hero Alexandria in the first century. Hero Alexandria, a Greek engineer and mathematician, created a machine that accepted a coin, before dispensing holy water.

Some greek dude: It's a MIRACLE!!! I put in a coin, and it gave me holy water!!!!!!

 

[TheDevian]

I think you're on to something.
My biggest question at this point, is if the human gods and elvish Seldarine are the same species. Maybe they're competing for worshipers (like in American Gods, the way the Owl Clan talked about aspects reminded me of this). Or maybe the hatred/fear of Gaius' side towards Elves makes them Orcs? It being an American Gods-style transfer of energy through "belief", could explain why the Elvish Queen was propped up as a believer of Gaius, to take wind out of the sails of the Seldarine.

Even in this case, "belief" doesn't have to be religious. Like fairies can control their crystals with thought, it's not that far-fetched that prayer and belief interact with other power sources or even other dimensions.

It could be, the fairies did say that to make a human/elf sized person invisible would take a huge crystal (IIRC). It it possible that if you train well, at non-fairy could do something like that, or there are invisible fairies helping the church for whatever reason, hard to say how this is going to play out.