Theofrad

Newbie
Game Developer
Jan 29, 2025
52
194
That's a very good point.



I was thinking of having the extra unit spawning together, so that it is not be more fights, but more ennemies in the fights. The auto-resolve is also being reworked and small uninteresting fight will be solvables with it.



Fair point.
I can indeed see it become extra battles. For me, it could be extra difficulty in that it forces you to get some army outside of you main strike force to deal with theses borders, and if they gather their own army of 8, it could force you to get defensive. Ideally, they could become hostile, but not attack with less than 5-6 units together. That way, they make no move unless they are a credible threat. But it would indeed slow things down...



100% agree. Just 1-2 lawachurl is enough to bully anything in normal difficulty. I can't event imagine 8....
There could be a stronger impact in the weapon of the main unit (it is an important element in Genshin and we already have some effect with the action available, but it could also have some passive effects, such as claymore dealing double damages to shields, bow and catalyse getting extra damage but being more vulnerable to close range attacks...). Also, maybe designing some generic enemy units as "boss-killer" : good single target and dangerous to your precious elite, but not that strong if they face a mass of ennemies. Like ignoring defence, or being sure to dodge the first 1-2 attacks they take in the turn (or the first attack that a power above a certain threshold).
The limit in army size with rarity is also a nice idea !
I could also be a limit by type : you always get 8 units, but no more that 1-2 lawachurl, and have to fill the rest with lower tier units. Or a limit by points : each unit has a certain number of points it costs to deploy (in addition the the 8 units limit), and you total army cannot exceed a certain value. That could be trainable with a NPC (that may require some good units as sacrifice).
There are several ways to solve this problem. First is to raise the attack and defence of enemies, according to a global threat or something else (weeks, etc), making even 8 lawachurls (and maybe they can be nerfed a little) not easy to defeat them. Second is to treat one lawachurl as two units you can have up to 4 of them in one place. Third is to implement rogues of elements other that anemo and hydro, and making lawachurl a stronger tier (and rarer) unit.
I will use the first method for now because it is the easiest.
(By the way in the future some enemies can summon uncatchable allies during the battle which makes the battle more difficult)
Also it is recommanded to conquer all nations simultaneously. Now we only have two nation so the difficulty of different stage of a capital is not that obvious. But this will be changed when Inazuma is implemented.
 
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zzgg

Newbie
Jun 19, 2018
19
4
Another bug: If you use special NPC upgrade, but click out of the base to skip the long AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (talking about saccing 1000 hilis for the NUM up...) you don't get the rewards. At least not the special units. The counter goes up for the stat, but haven't tested yet whether this is just display or true.

Anyway, the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA gets a bit too long and should be skipped or capped at most lasting a second...
 

zzgg

Newbie
Jun 19, 2018
19
4
There are several ways to solve this problem. First is to raise the attack and defence of enemies, according to a global threat or something else (weeks, etc), making even 8 lawachurls (and maybe they can be nerfed a little) not easy to defeat them. ...
Could I urge you not to make the game time sensitive? If they get more difficult the longer you take... well. I understand it is still somewhat a placeholder, but if you do, make easy mode be unaffected by this. Also, is your strength programming or something else? Because it's always good to try to lean into your strengths when considering what choices to make. If you have a lot of experience in strategy games, you could think of adding more complex mechanics. If it's programming, you could make more extravagant enemies etc.
 

Theofrad

Newbie
Game Developer
Jan 29, 2025
52
194
Another bug: If you use special NPC upgrade, but click out of the base to skip the long AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (talking about saccing 1000 hilis for the NUM up...) you don't get the rewards. At least not the special units. The counter goes up for the stat, but haven't tested yet whether this is just display or true.

Anyway, the AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA gets a bit too long and should be skipped or capped at most lasting a second...
will fix that.
Could I urge you not to make the game time sensitive? If they get more difficult the longer you take... well. I understand it is still somewhat a placeholder, but if you do, make easy mode be unaffected by this. Also, is your strength programming or something else? Because it's always good to try to lean into your strengths when considering what choices to make. If you have a lot of experience in strategy games, you could think of adding more complex mechanics. If it's programming, you could make more extravagant enemies etc.
I actually mean to multiply atk and def by the smaller one of week factor and threat factor.
 
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NamedUser1111

New Member
Apr 1, 2024
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11
It's worth noting that more than one unit already spawns per turn, it's just that its slightly obfuscated. To give one such example: Up near the wharf, elite xia's can spawn. If you take the wharf, you shut that down. Which can be important on higher difficulties because elite xia's are annoying with their constant healing and hovering.

One should also keep in mind: It only feels like there is a balancing issue right now because we only have two nations, and both are intended to be early game. By the time we are fighting Inazuma or Sumeru, unit power may increase/element application may be heightened. Lawachurls are very useful right now, but in order to get them, you have to essentially beat high level girls and breed them at a pretty low chance. Lawachurls are a reward for patience and winning harder fights.

I think its important not to lose scope of where we are right now, rather than thinking "Liyue is as good as it gets". Even with Eight lawachurls, Morax will still hurt unless you are playing on easy. And as time goes on, it's going to get worse as bosses scale up or get even more units to protect themselves. Inazuma for example - Magatsu had that armor that is implied to be something Ei herself was capable of using. Sumeru has Shouki no Kami, let alone whatever Rukka is going to throw at us, and then Fontaine has a goddamn Hydro Sovereign. We have only just begun in terms of major threats we need to fight (Also remember, there is a big ass Dendro Sovereign in the desert we are going to have to fight as well. Just her heart was enough to qualify as a weekly boss, imagine how her actual bossfight is going to turn out considering she was bigger than sumeru city itself.

Patience comrades, patience. We will see reasons that will make even our lawachurls fear, celebrate surviving Morax for now, because much worse is to come.
You are right. I'm sorry I came out wrong.

But my point was less about the bosses (yes, Morax, Venti and the 2 adepti are really good boss fights and I have no fear that what comes next will be "worst") and more about the fights outside the boss, the normal units and what to do outside of boss. To get a real fight on the way to the boss and keep a risk of Game Over (boss can't give you a game over, since thay never leave de city/location).

But I do trust the plan. So far it has been great, everything well-executed and I can see the amount of work and quality that goes in the next parts, so I know I can rest easy ^^
 

Hanakoto

Newbie
Jun 1, 2023
57
40
Lawachurls are very useful right now, but in order to get them, you have to essentially beat high level girls and breed them at a pretty low chance
Or breed few girls for weeks and raise nycto power. Can capture them carefully, keep the least amount of territory under control. Rosaria was able to have lawachurls with just 116 nycto power (according to altar). Was basically just skipping weeks and letting dendro shielders to hold attacks away (hellichurl difficulty), first nycro lawachurl appeared after week 158. The most difficult was to capture trainers.

Was getting game over again and again, till went defensive, barely capturing anything. Few weaker girls here and there, shielders, 8 nycto archers defeating Lumine... But it feels interesting that way - if no one pays attention to hilichurls, they'll grow really strong and conquer Teyvat, there's something about that
 
Apr 25, 2022
54
73
I actually mean to multiply atk and def by the smaller one of week factor and threat factor.
While the idea isn't bad offhand, I highly recommend a maximum cap on how nasty enemies can get via week factor. The only reason I cleared Hell mode in the first place was because I held out in mondstatd till like, turn 90 to breed the right hilichurls until I was capable of killing elites.

I'd really like to avoid a scenario where enemies just randomly one shot mitachurls/samachurls for no reason. I had that issue with Goblin burrow - where I had supposedly good units, and enemies just instakilled them for seemingly no reason.

Managing the threat bar is already a decent incentive to avoid getting too aggressive, but if the scaling on the damage boost gets too high, you end up with a damned if you do damned if you don't situation, as patience gets punished instead of rewarded. Part of what makes the game fun is the ability to build up your forces to eventually overcome the challenges of the city bulwarks.

I'm alright with enemies getting harder over time - it gives you a reason to bother breeding later units like lawachurls and samachurls, to say nothing of what will come from the whoppers/wolves/vishaps, but I'd like to avoid mitachurls becoming entirely useless. As that just exacerbates the problem of lawachurls being the only thing you field after a while - using anything else just isn't worth the time because elites chew through them in like two hits.

With that said, if our enemies will be able to scale, I'm hoping our ability to scale will be able to match them over time. We have the training NPC's, so perhaps boosting their point scaling would be a thing so we have a response to enemies just suddenly being beefier? This would also mean stuff like breeding the basic girls when we get the city updates would have more of a purpose - get the training stats up so that way we don't get nuked by basic adventurers post week 100.

However, one thing I'd really like is that when this scaling arrives, for the information to be very clearly presented. I'd like to know why my units are dying, rather than just having the enemy come in, whack us to death, and then have to wonder "Wait, that shield worked perfectly fine the last fight, why are they suddenly nuking us now?".

-

As a personal note, not attached to sounding out the system above, I'm really not fond of pointless time limits that suddenly pop up for no other reason than to ensure you can't just slowly tank your way through a games system with decent gear and patience. I've had to watch the MMO scene grow addicted to things like rage timers and 20 minute "Welp, the boss just runs away, fuck you" results, which never feel like an interesting way to handle things to me. I'm the kind of person who likes to get as tanky as possible and win via death of a thousand cuts.

On top of this, there is also the problem that comes from the siren song of 'unlimited scaling', where devs go "Okay, they just endlessly get more powerful", with no way to match them. I much prefer hard-defined challenges to overcome, where there are eventual answers via either patience or creative use of game mechanics to sidestep things, of which to give an example from this game, samachurls - Elites can be managed via things like dendro mines and ice pillars in order to avoid damage entirely.

Thus far, this game has been pretty good about how it handles difficulty, and I've enjoyed myself immensely even during my stint in hell mode where all I could really do was wait for large periods of time. I'd really like to suggest a bit of caution in trying to jack up the difficulty too far too fast, because right now, I really like how the games difficulty is a matter of reactionary difficulty, rather than arbitrary "Do it by now or fail" standards. I can activate Alice whenever I please (...When Klee behaves, but managing her movements is part of the thrill.), I can manage the threat bar in order to avoid cases like Noel the Reaper smashing through my entire mitachurl line before I have anyone capable of dealing with her endless shields, I can choose not to pillage or destroy monuments to avoid pissing off mondstatd enough to send in elites...Everything thus far is a matter of "You can let them calm down until you are ready to face them, and then approach them ready to deal with their shenanigans with a properly built team with supporting casters and slimes to manage elemental damage".

Perhaps there are alternative ways to add difficulty without having to make it worse as a whole? Things like customizable settings to boost enemy stats that you can activate at your whim if you want to see crazy things, or even making it a risk reward system in of itself - higher stats means you have to manage fights more often, but in turn you get better and or more resources for your trouble? I've seen games where optional difficulty was attached to more payoff for the trouble, which makes it feel less like its hard for no reason and more like you are willingly subjecting yourself to something harder for the sake of either faster development or just getting fancier toys.

All in all, I hate to sound like I'm just whining here, but I simply want to avoid the game losing the strategic scope in favor of one prioritizing fast movement. Everything else I've seen in terms of development sneak peaks has looked really good, and this is the first time I feel...hesitant, in regards to a proposed system.
 

flannan

Engaged Member
Dec 15, 2022
2,829
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About lategame scaling, I think it would be interesting to properly depict the magnitude of what we are doing.
We didn't just conquer a countryside fortress - we have slain the god of wind, freeing every breeze and hurricane from his rule. Now try sailing anywhere like that!
We didn't just conquer a port town - we have slain the god of earth, potentially causing the very ground beneath our feet to grow unstable, bringing earthquakes.
And he was also the god of commerce, which isn't that big of a problem for hilichurls, but probably causes a lot of humans to lose their jobs and enlist in the army instead.
 

Whiskas2

Newbie
Jan 7, 2020
49
188
I kind of wanted to raise a request- or more of a plea really cuz' I'm desperately hoping that will be in the game eventually- Can we please get a different sprite for special NPCs in the combat map so they don't also look like villagers? It would certainly make lives easier to know what villager in particular is actually important to capture. Failing that, could they at least respawn if you attack the location again or you could maybe use that revive function for them?
 

T4t0rt

Active Member
Feb 22, 2023
842
383
mr Theofrad could be good to have something like this when using girls+hilichurls squads.
 
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Theofrad

Newbie
Game Developer
Jan 29, 2025
52
194
I kind of wanted to raise a request- or more of a plea really cuz' I'm desperately hoping that will be in the game eventually- Can we please get a different sprite for special NPCs in the combat map so they don't also look like villagers? It would certainly make lives easier to know what villager in particular is actually important to capture. Failing that, could they at least respawn if you attack the location again or you could maybe use that revive function for them?
In fact, if the special NPC disguised as a villager and get killed or ran away, she will respawn at the next battle in that place.
 

abao

Member
Mar 20, 2018
188
468
I hope the rate of enemy stats scaling from time spent can be a separate toggle than just being rolled into the only difficulty option.

It's a totally different game with and without time pressure, regardless of how strong enemies are, since the optimal strategy will change from minmaxing your power at that point of progression to minmaxing your growth rate.
 

NamedUser1111

New Member
Apr 1, 2024
10
11
Maybe instead of a time scaling, it could be a threat scaling ?
Like scaling with the sum of the threat in both region, or a separate threat counter that focuses in bigger events that the regional one ?
It would give the possibility to lay low, to see how it evolved, and give it an upper limit (which can be high, buis not infinite).
I don't know how hard it would be to implement compared to the time scaling..
 

Hanakoto

Newbie
Jun 1, 2023
57
40
In fact, if the special NPC disguised as a villager and get killed or ran away, she will respawn at the next battle in that place.
And what if special NPC is part of combat unit? What about Jade Chamber with 3 special NPCs? Since Jade Chamber location disappears after fight
 

Hanakoto

Newbie
Jun 1, 2023
57
40
About lategame scaling, I think it would be interesting to properly depict the magnitude of what we are doing.
We didn't just conquer a countryside fortress - we have slain the god of wind, freeing every breeze and hurricane from his rule. Now try sailing anywhere like that!
We didn't just conquer a port town - we have slain the god of earth, potentially causing the very ground beneath our feet to grow unstable, bringing earthquakes.
And he was also the god of commerce, which isn't that big of a problem for hilichurls, but probably causes a lot of humans to lose their jobs and enlist in the army instead.
Wonder if we actually slay Archons. If it happens, ton of energy is released from them, even from weakest one. It was mentioned in game (archon of salt). There should be something else, because you don't just detonate equivalent of nuclear bomb.

Maybe they are taken under control somehow, thanks to Abyss powers or something. After all, if Archon lost Gnosis, their power is greatly weakened. Wiki mentioned that:
1746275456048.png
 
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Apr 25, 2022
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In regards to the whole "Beating Archons have consequences" debate, it is worth noting we get to keep the gnosis, so the consequences wouldn't be quite as drastic as thought to be. We are the ones with the divine power now.

That said, in terms of "Something should happen after you beat an archon fight" logic, it could possibly translate to other nations increasing unit production. The neighboring god just died, therefore, having a better standing army would be a wise decision.
 

fenrir5034

Newbie
Jun 6, 2018
29
4
Also it is recommanded to conquer all nations simultaneously. Now we only have two nation so the difficulty of different stage of a capital is not that obvious. But this will be changed when Inazuma is implemented.
i like this idea of having to prepare to lay siege to a capital , then the other capitals send forces to try and attack the base while presumably your strongest units are fighting in the capital so its harder to defend so you would need enough units to siege everyone at the same time or at least every close neighbor so you don´t get overwhelmed.
 

angmund

New Member
Nov 7, 2020
2
2
I think that if a country can no longer handle the threat, it will send volunteers from abroad to help as a combined unit of each country or have refugees flee to other countries, allowing the surviving countries to have more soldiers or start building up more prepared forces. The less northern countries there are, the more international cooperation there will be to counter the global threat.
 
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