- Feb 27, 2020
- 207
- 83
Ren'Py HS Tutor [v0.17.0] [TK8000]
- Thread starter DarkWolf2055
- Start date
I thought about it, but I ended up deciding that changing Zoe to be more politically correct wouldn't make sense when my intention isn't to make a mainstream product for the general public or anything like that. I ended up deciding that keeping her radicalism was the right thing to do, even if it might offend or alienate some players. Just imagine if all the authors of all the games decided that they couldn't have prejudiced characters, for example, characters like Zoe would simply cease to exist and I can't see any situation where having less variety of personalities is good in the name of making something more friendly. And yes, someone might say that Zoe would be a better character if she didn't openly say that she “hates faggots”, but I don't want to make a good character either, I want to make Zoe, and that's who she is
.Zoe being homophobic adds quite literally nothing to her character. It just makes it clear that the Dev is a bigot themselves.I thought about it, but I ended up deciding that changing Zoe to be more politically correct wouldn't make sense when my intention isn't to make a mainstream product for the general public or anything like that. I ended up deciding that keeping her radicalism was the right thing to do, even if it might offend or alienate some players. Just imagine if all the authors of all the games decided that they couldn't have prejudiced characters, for example, characters like Zoe would simply cease to exist and I can't see any situation where having less variety of personalities is good in the name of making something more friendly. And yes, someone might say that Zoe would be a better character if she didn't openly say that she “hates faggots”, but I don't want to make a good character either, I want to make Zoe, and that's who she is
I've already posted the answer to this argument in the previous message. For me, the idea that Zoe would be a “better character” if it weren't for X and Y says nothing. Zoe is Zoe, with her qualities and flaws. Someone might say she'd be better with big boobs, but she has small boobs, that's how Zoe is.
Even if someone scientifically proved to me that Zoe would be a better character if she were tolerant, I'd still refuse to change her, just as I wouldn't make Zoe have big boobs even if someone proved to me that she'd be better with mega tits. I don't want to offend people with my games, I see them as mindless fun, but there's a certain limit to this idea, because the only way not to offend anyone is to make something totally sterile. So I've decided that Zoe will continue to spout her atrocities even though it might make some players dislike her, the game, etc.
In fact, I don't agree that her prejudice adds anything to the character either. I plan for Zoe and Pamela to have a good chemistry between them, and the fact that Zoe is so prejudiced against homosexuals just makes the idea of her having a solid friendship with a lesbian more interesting.
Finally, this thing about judging the author by the work is another thing I don't take into consideration. I have the following philosophy: the works should speak for themselves, the authors don't matter. I don't even consider Zoe “my” character, really. I consider Zoe a character who doesn't depend on me to be who she is. My job as the game's author is to make Zoe act like Zoe, if that makes sense. I see myself only as the medium that allows an established character to act and react to circumstances. That's because I'm not trying to do anything deeply meaningful here, the characters in my games aren't tools to pass on messages, my games aren't philosophical and don't have a moral to be learned. They're just sandboxes for people to meet horny characters.
In other words, "no beliefs were harmed during the making of this game".
Oh yeah, real quick: Do Zoe and Mila dye their hair? If not, what's their natural hair color?
- Feb 20, 2021
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If this were true, Stephen King would be considered a fan of murderers because he writes them so well.
That's about the dumbest thing I have ever seen.
Being able to write diverse characters shows absolutely nothing about the writers' character, except that they are a decent writer.
- Aug 9, 2022
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Can anyone help me reload v0.17 save and progress and then I came to school quest to help principal about our sister behaviour can anyone tell complete walkthrough what to do
I'll be honest, it certainly doesn't help your case when you have Zoe's homophobia be vindicated by the story the principal tells where the gay activist she got in a fight with was actually raping two young boys, but "the media" covers it up to not make him look bad. It's the sort of scenario that sounds like it came from some sort of far right conspiracy theorist.
All of the discussion around Zoe's behavior is framed as bad because it could get her in trouble "with the current climate" as opposed to homophobia being wrong in its own right. It's like half a degree away from complaining about "political correctness".
You also have Melissa (an authority figure) repeat the lie that the word "homphobia" isn't correct because they don't have a "phobia" (ignoring the fact that plenty of words use the suffix -phobia to express an aversion vs simply a fear, eg "hydrophobia"). It's something that homophobes try and pull all the time to deflect. She also pulls some similar BS about "disagreement doesn't mean disrespect", which again, is something homophobes try and say to justify their bigotry as a legitimte matter of opinion. Finally, she excuses hatred of gay activists as justified.
I don't even know how to begin with how all the homophobic and transphobic stuff with Pamela is written, once again framing LGBT people as predators that prey on children.
These instances go beyond simply writing Zoe as a flawed, homophobic character. It shows a level of the author's intention and beliefs that slip through.
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I'm not trying to defend myself against the accusation that I'm a "bigot", because as I said, the only thing that matters is the work, fuck the artist. That's my philosophy. I'm not important, what I think and what I do, my morality, the “sins” I commit, that doesn't matter and so I don't feel there's a “case” where I'm being judged as you implied.
The only thing that really worries me is offending the players, because I see these games of mine as juvenile, uncompromising entertainment. You know when you get together with friends to talk nonsense and have a laugh? That's the idea I like to bring to my games, I want people to get into that state of mind where swearing and insults aren't really seen as swearing and insults, but as the kind of camaraderie that friends have with each other and laugh about. That's why when Zoe is scolded by Mila for using the word "faggot" at school, she responds with “what kind of faggot complains that someone is using the word faggot?”. I think that perfectly exemplifies the tone of my games.
However, when you're with friends having a good time, you don't really want to offend any of them, which is why I thought a bit about this last update. I knew that some people might feel offended when the chaotically evil girl (Zoe) turns out to be correct when she acted in a prejudiced way, and then when she meets a homosexual girl, instead of having her behavior corrected, the opposite happens because the lesbian doesn't like gay men either!
I had to make a decision then. Either I would try to tone it down, or I would unfortunately have to offend some people in order to “filter out” the 'friends' who can't tolerate politically incorrect jokes. I chose the second option, because I like Zoe more than I want to make my game not offend everyone. In addition, I considered that the vast majority of the audience for my games are heterosexual men, and so I decided that I would do something very much aimed at this audience. Normally, straight men don't give a fuck about politically incorrect themes and many of them even like it (it's not a general rule, just a trend I've noticed). But I also know that there are people who are gay, or bisexual, or “trans”, who play my games and like them, and I'd rather not offend any of them, but then we come back to the problem I talked about in another post: the only way not to offend anyone is to do something totally sterile.
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Part 2:
On your points about the game itself: yes, if you analyze the game from the point of view of someone committed to fighting homophobia in the world or something, the only conclusion you'll come to is that my game is “wrong”. But the same is also true if someone analyzes my game from a religious point of view. The fact is: I shouldn't adjust my game to suit Christian sensibilities, I think everyone agrees with that. In the same way, I don't see the need to adjust it to the sensibilities of american liberals (or anyone who follows the same code of morality).
You also have to take into account that although the names of the characters are inspired by American names, and the art style is based on Koikatu, which is a Japanese game, the writing of my game is the fruit of a third culture that doesn't fully align with these two. Teacher Melissa, for example, is a liberal and tolerant character, but as you said, she doesn't like the term “homophobia”, nor does she sympathize with radical activism. It so happens that in my culture this is a fairly common position among liberals. I'm also inspired by the liberal idea that individuals should be judged by their own character, and not by the group they belong to. That's why you have the gay guy who lectures on tolerance, which would probably be the ultimate sign of virtue in a game made by American liberals, but in my game this guy is a rapist, which goes along with the idea of not judging character because of the group someone belongs to. Also, straight men traumatized Pamela, the fact that they're straight doesn't mean that they're good or moral.
Another thing worth noting is that when characters have pragmatic motivations, you remove the idea that the story is trying to educate players. You need to fight Zoe's homophobia, but not because the game is saying “homophobia is bad and must be fought!”, that would be terrible because I'd be trying to pass on a moral to the players which is not my intention. The MC wants to fight homophobia so that Zoe doesn't get into trouble (“current climate” has relevance here), while the principal doesn't want the school to become news again. The fact that there is a pragmatic concern on the part of the characters makes the players identify with them, even if they don't care about the subject of homophobia. Even homophobic people will want to help Zoe fight their homophobia, because they're doing it for Zoe, not for an ideal.
Finally, the thing about the media stopping commenting on a case when there's a twist that isn't politically correct is based on real facts. I experienced this at university, when my institute's newspaper decided to drop a story about homophobia completely when new facts came to light that were damaging to the image of the gay community.
Except the game is very much affected by the artist's personal, homophobic grievances, which you even admit are true later on in your post where you let the mask slip and start complaining about gay people and "political correctness". It's always been simmering under the surface with the way Zoe speaks (which comes across like a teenage boy raised on 4chan far more than any girl that's ever existed), but it hits you over the head again and again with the whole principal/Pamela plotline. You're not nearly as subtle as you think you are about showing your hand when you write this stuff. It comes off as weird and off-putting because normal people don't have these bigoted obsessions.
I'm not going to try to pretend that I can change your personal views about this, but just avoid the topic man. No one wants a porn game to turn into the writer's excuse to rant about how much they hate gay and trans people through thinly-veiled mouthpieces. It's super obvious what you're doing when you make the gay men into pedophilic rapists and the trans people into child predators who try and force minors to transition against their will, thereby traumatizing them into thinking they're gay (which the MC I'm sure will fix by fucking them).
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You see, I made it clear in part 2 that if you start from a certain pre-established moral code, my game is obviously going to be “wrong”. I cited an example: Christianity. Now let's see your comment, but from a Christian point of view:
"Except the game is very much affected by the artist's personal, anti-christian grievances"
As you may agree, that's not important. The fact that an author seems to have a grudge against Christianity when writing a porn game is not something that's relevant. However, it will become relevant if you are a fundamentalist Christian who thinks that all authors need to clearly demonstrate that they are in line with Christian doctrine. Ironically, that's the position of a religious bigot.
When you say that I'm letting the mask slip, you're implying that I'm trying to pretend that I follow the same moral code as you, but guess what, I'm not, and that doesn't mean that I'm a person who wants to harm someone. Just as someone doesn't need to be a Christian to respect real life human beings and other Christians, a person doesn't need to think like you to respect real life human beings and gays. Another thing is that you seem to consider “political correctness” some kind of forbidden term. My games are clearly politically incorrect, just as, I don't know, Family Guy is a cartoon with politically incorrect humor.
I've said several times that my intention is to make a game that provides entertainment that doesn't take itself seriously with silly, juvenile humor (mainly for heterosexual men). There is no attempt at subtlety, Zoe in one conversation says that Hannah's ex-boyfriend is a “faggot” because he “has sex with his ass”. This kind of sloppy writing, which, as you said, reads like a shitpost from 4chan, is exactly the tone of the game. Unless you're some kind of fundamentalist who believes that gays should be immune to jokes, there's no argument against this writing. You can say it's bad writing, and I'll agree. But you seem to be implying that it's a “forbidden” kind of writing, which is unacceptable from my point of view.
This brings me back to what I wrote in the previous post: “why the hell are you thinking about me while playing my game?”. Seriously, I'm not important, I'm just a guy living in South America who made some porn games. And why do you think I should avoid certain topics? Are they sacred?
Many people like politically incorrect characters and situations (I know you don't like this term). Solvalley's Milena is a character loved by many players who have emailed me, and guess what, she openly says she hates "dykes" even though she has relationships with at least 4 girls during the game's story.
I'm not the most successful dev in the world, but if nobody liked this stupid unfiltered humor, probably nobody would be playing my games, since I started with Solvalley which is several levels more controversial and less filtered than HS Tutor.
And now, we've come full circle and you're repeating the same arguments from the beginning.
You probably don't mind when Catholic priests are portrayed as sexual predators who see altar boys as fresh meat to be abused, and look, I'm not judging you, I'm not saying you should care about the way priests are portrayed in entertainment products, what I'm saying is that no one has immunity to being portrayed as a villain, not even gays or trans (or the heterosexual perverts who traumatized Pamela that you forgot to mention).
It really seems to me that you have the mentality of a censor. You can't accept that someone would create an entertainment product where a gay person is portrayed as a bad person.
Part of the audience, made up of heterosexual men, likes this idea. Not all of them, another part prefers lesbians to be exclusively with other women. Anyway, you must remember that I said I had to make a choice, and I decided to favor the group of heterosexual men who are the majority of players, at the risk of offending other groups (such as gays, bisexuals, trans, etc.).
But from the tone of your messages, it seems to me that catering to the audience of heterosexual men who aren't offended by gay jokes, who aren't offended when gays aren't portrayed in an idealized way, and like the idea of a lesbian becoming addicted to MC cock, is a sin. That's the only reason I replied to your message again, really. I wanted to show you that you are basically trying to dictate what is acceptable content and what is not. You're showing intolerance to jokes that make fun of a gay person (but you don't mind jokes that make fun of heterosexuals). You're showing intolerance for when a gay person is portrayed as a villain (but you don't care when heterosexuals are portrayed as villains). I respect your criticism and I'm the first to recognize that my game isn't exactly made to please people with your personal taste, but this censor mentality is quite unpleasant.
And no, Pamela is not going to become heterosexual. But she will learn to like dicks as well as pussies.
Note:
to avoid further controversial discussions, I'm going to stop posting on this specific subject. You or anyone else can comment on it, and say how nefarious the game is, I'll read it because I care, but I won't respond anymore. Anyway, I'll make a statement here:
Unrelated, but the above statement is funny. For as far as I am in the game, everyone comes off as either True Neutral at best or Neutral Evil at worst. The latter one is an opportunistic case as well, and Zoe is among the bunch who'd probably violate several human rights if the "price is right", lol
Yes sir, ppl don't mind when Christian priests are demonized, but wouldnt dare point out rabbis are far more nefarious and predatory
Will we ever get more content for Daisy? Don't get me wrong, I love all the milfs and their daughters, but Daisy's been teasing us with potential future content for YEARS, and I need my fix of potentially wholesome yet perverted stripper love (Or however you decide to plan her content, but you get the idea).
