I think it's very easy to create a good game.

[anne O'nymous]

But I really dislike the point you're making, as I think it's wrong to think that only people that worked on a specific topic can criticize it. It's something we saw multiples times on this thread already.

Everybody can criticize any topic, the problem do not lie there. But past some times, you can't just stay there criticizing and just criticizing. There's a moment where, if you want to be took seriously, you've to prove that you can backup your claims by facts. Especially when your claims are contradicted by people who practice what they talk about.

 

[Gwedelino]

Assuming that wiring a good VN is easy because the technical skills required are not the the hardest is like assuming that writing a good book is easy because everyone has a word processor on their computer.

I do agree the title of my thread is too extreme, and I stated later than it's more a question of "skill floor" and "skill ceiling" than skill itself.

My point is that the main audience of H-game is not very demanding compared to many other audiences like for books.

Which make creating a good game easier for newcomers than some other media like mainstream gaming.

 

[DuniX]

I still think you are very optimistic about this. In my experience, when things look too easy, it's that you're not looking at things in the proper way. Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, however, who knows?

My point is there are very little projects based on actual Gameplay and Porn.
If you dump the "Story" you can make a game on the Cheap and Easy.

Also, sex scenes need context and need to be written, and creating the scene is not as easy as pressing a few buttons.

You get raped if you fail, you rape them if you win, what more context do you need?

The fact you think turning the same game in 2D would be easier means you have no idea what you are talking about.
Color me surprised :O

Here is a secret all those Koikatsu or Honey Select models, you can Render them as "Game Sprites", that's what you're doing in VN's anyway. That's how they did it in the old days, although back then they used actual clay models instead of 3D.
You even have plenty of attack poses for some reason.
You can even set Isometric Cameras if you want.

Yes I am not asking for the impossible, but this entire "Industry" wouldn't exist without Daz and Illusion.
You can use the same methods for other things.
Nobody here is a Professional that can create Assets from Scratch.

How to look down on an entire profession just through OP's title. Then proceed to urinate on that profession through their actual opinion. Yikes.

It comes from the heart, I Despise most of the projects in this "cottage industry".

Said by someone who, since years now, pass most of his time saying how easy it would be to do this or that, and never ever have shown more than impracticable half broken snippets of code (yet I'm not totally sure that you've shown some), it's ironical.




What are you waiting then ? The three links you provided are effective games, "Carbon Copy Clone" them and show the world that you are more than a talk.

And you our "Experienced" senpai, what have you released?

 

[Avaron1974]

ANYONE can make a game that gets good reviews and a lot of players.

It's been shown time and again that certain content will get people in regardless of quality.

All you need is incest.

Seriously, go check out every incest game and they all have players and they all have reviews from people saying how good they are and some of them will be the absolute shittest games you will ever have the misfortune to lay your eyes on but because you can bang mommy dearest they get the stars.

For years we had the exact same formula. Guy comes home from 5+ years abroad. Dad either left or dead. 2 sisters, one older and one younger with the older one hating the MC and having an attitude problem and the younger one loving him. The mother turning into a cock craving whore at the first sight of her sons cock because despite having 2 kids and more sexual experience than anyone else in the house this is porn and logic be damned.

None of them were good games but they all had a lot of players because it's incest and, I honestly mean no offence, incest players are very easily pleased. Arguably the easiest crowd to please. I've seen them settle for utter shit just because of incest.

Now we've moved on and the old tropes are dead.

Now waking up in a coma with amnesia is all the rage.

 

[OsamiWorks]

Not trying to defend DuniX on this one since I basically agree with Ambir's takes.

But I really dislike the point you're making, as I think it's wrong to think that only people that worked on a specific topic can criticize it. It's something we saw multiples times on this thread already.

If we translated that into everything then basically nobody would be legitimate at criticizing anything.

- Did you already own a restaurant ? No ? Then delete that review you posted online because you don't know shit.

- Have you already been elected as the President of your country ? No ? Then don't talk about politics as you have no idea how everything works.

People are free to criticize what they want, when someone plays a game and criticizes that game, they know enough to know what they enjoy and what they dont. Finding a form of art you enjoy is a prerequisite to creating it, finding a style of game you enjoy is a prerequisite to making them, being an adequate writer means reading at least enough to know what style of writing you enjoy, and this goes on for every single skill. Do you think a composer that doesnt listen to music can actually produce good music? They know that the musical notes are ABCEDFG, does that mean they understand enough to criticize a composition?

He was criticizing someone elses abilities to make a game, which is past what i believe he is capable of criticizing. Even copying and pasting code means you need to be able read it, comprehend it just enough, and fix issues or make modifications to it so it will run.

 

[Winterfire]

Seriously, lol. I wonder how many devs on here don't have at least one abandoned project sitting in a folder somewhere. Some people seem to forget that failure is kinda necessary in order to learn, even if the skill is perceived as 'easy'.

Failing is a good way to learn, nothing to say against that.
Taking a responsibility (and money) then failing to fulfil it teaches you (and other people) how irresponsible you are, or were.
Nothing that cannot be fixed, but it'd be best to fail on your own and not on multiple fronts.

You get raped if you fail, you rape them if you win, what more context do you need?

Fair enough, I never played that game but it is true you do not need much more context than that (Unless you can have other sex scenes outside of that).
On other games, it can be more complicated than that... Context is important, otherwise a sex scene would do about as much as viewing an image (Which can be enough for some people, but not the majority I'd say).

Here is a secret all those Koikatsu or Honey Select models, you can Render them as "Game Sprites", that's what you're doing in VN's anyway. That's how they did it in the old days, although back then they used actual clay models instead of 3D.
You even have plenty of attack poses for some reason.
You can even set Isometric Cameras if you want.

First of all, that would be much more time consuming than actually making a Chibi Model to traverse a 3D Dungeon, and that is ignoring the fact KK/HS cannot make chibi.
Even if we do not want to replicate 1:1 that game, it would still be far less time consuming if you used Vroid Studio or simply exported the model.

If you are too scared of 3D, yours would be a viable way to do things (and also gives you the opportunity to edit the sprites in 2D), but you are going to spend a lot of time on that.
X frames for going down, X Frames for going Left, X Frames for going Right, X Frames for going up, and that is only four directions. Yeah, I'd rather do it in 3D

Rendering as Game Sprite is truly doable the way VNs do it (Speaker Character, and CGs).
Although you might not have any other choice if you use an engine with no 3D capabilities (such as RPGM).

My second point is that while it is technically 2D, when people (including me) say 2D, they actually mean drawn art.
If you talk about 2D and then you show them a KK/HS screenshot, people will assault you with a pitchfork.

 

[Avaron1974]

DuniX lol then post your work and show people why they should take your opinions seriously

It needs to be said but this, right here, is the absolute dumbest comment I see people make on this site.

I mean that sincerely, it's moronic.

Why, I hear absolutely no one ask?

Well, i'm glad I imagined you asking.

Film critics have never made movies, music critics have never made music, food critics aren't chefs and so on and so forth. You do not need to do something to be able to have a criticism of it.

If that was the case you would have to eat food you didn't like because you aren't a chef, eat your damn raw chicken liver sandwich.

What's that, Friday by Rebecca Black is the best song ever. It absolutely is because none of you are in the music industry so you will enjoy it and be grateful for her lyrical genius.

Twilight, the best love story ever told, you're damn right it is and until you make a ovie of your own you have no room to talk.

See, it's a dumb fuck comment.

I don't need to eat Horse Shit to know it's tastes disgusting. I know what I like and what I don't and if I want to criticise something I damn well will.

If, at any time, someone says to me "well, where's your game then" i'm going to point and laugh in their general direction until they say something that isn't the equivilent of "I have no decent points to make so i'm going to reach into the well of utterly stupid retorts and take a massive steaming shit on the thread with this crappy sentence".

 

[OsamiWorks]

It needs to be said but this, right here, is the absolute dumbest comment I see people make on this site.

I mean that sincerely, it's moronic.

Why, I hear absolutely no one ask?

Well, i'm glad I imagined you asking.

Film critics have never made movies, music critics have never made music, food critics aren't chefs and so on and so forth. You do not need to do something to be able to have a criticism of it.

If that was the case you would have to eat food you didn't like because you aren't a chef, eat your damn raw chicken liver sandwich.

What's that, Friday by Rebecca Black is the best song ever. It absolutely is because none of you are in the music industry so you will enjoy it and be grateful for her lyrical genius.

Twilight, the best love story ever told, you're damn right it is and until you make a ovie of your own you have no room to talk.

See, it's a dumb fuck comment.

I don't need to eat Horse Shit to know it's tastes disgusting. I know what I like and what I don't and if I want to criticise something I damn well will.

If, at any time, someone says to me "well, where's your game then" i'm going to point and laugh in their general direction until they say something that isn't the equivilent of "I have no decent points to make so i'm going to reach into the well of utterly stupid retorts and take a massive steaming shit on the thread with this crappy sentence".

 

[Avaron1974]

View attachment 1985345

Which is why I said it's the dumbest comment I see people make on this site and not you made a dumb comment.

Perhaps I should have clarified that, my mistake.

 

[OsamiWorks]

Which is why I said it's the dumbest comment I see people make on this site and not you made a dumb comment.

Perhaps I should have clarified that, my mistake.

lol its alright i just thought it was funny to screenshot my own post, I lived the PoC || GTFO experience and I dont think its a good thing to tell everyone. It hurts self esteem, makes a lot of unecescary challenges while learning, it makes people quit things they enjoy, and creates harder gatekeepers. I understand why they do it but I think that culture made me a worse person overall so I dont think its good to say either

 

[Wankyudo]

It needs to be said but this, right here, is the absolute dumbest comment I see people make on this site.

I mean that sincerely, it's moronic.

Why, I hear absolutely no one ask?

Well, i'm glad I imagined you asking.

Film critics have never made movies, music critics have never made music, food critics aren't chefs and so on and so forth. You do not need to do something to be able to have a criticism of it.

If that was the case you would have to eat food you didn't like because you aren't a chef, eat your damn raw chicken liver sandwich.

What's that, Friday by Rebecca Black is the best song ever. It absolutely is because none of you are in the music industry so you will enjoy it and be grateful for her lyrical genius.

Twilight, the best love story ever told, you're damn right it is and until you make a ovie of your own you have no room to talk.

See, it's a dumb fuck comment.

I don't need to eat Horse Shit to know it's tastes disgusting. I know what I like and what I don't and if I want to criticise something I damn well will.

If, at any time, someone says to me "well, where's your game then" i'm going to point and laugh in their general direction until they say something that isn't the equivilent of "I have no decent points to make so i'm going to reach into the well of utterly stupid retorts and take a massive steaming shit on the thread with this crappy sentence".

I'd agree with you if it's limited to just the scope of criticizing the product itself; but while you don't have to be Gordon Ramsey to tell the chef that your steak is overcooked, you do need to have cooked a steak successfully to tell him how to cook it in the first place. If it's someone in bad faith using that argument to deflect from people saying their product is shit, absolutely it's a horrible argument. If it's someone using that argument because people are telling him how it's easy for him to make a game in the first place and hes an idiot for fucking it up, that's where I feel that comment is valid. After all, critics only judge off of what's on their plate, but it's not like they'll go as far as standing in the kitchen to criticize the process.

 

[DuniX]

My second point is that while it is technically 2D, when people (including me) say 2D, they actually mean drawn art.
If you talk about 2D and then you show them a KK/HS screenshot, people will assault you with a pitchfork.

Most games here are not "3D" they are 3DCG aka Renders.

First of all, that would be much more time consuming than actually making a Chibi Model to traverse a 3D Dungeon, and that is ignoring the fact KK/HS cannot make chibi.
Even if we do not want to replicate 1:1 that game, it would still be far less time consuming if you used Vroid Studio or simply exported the model.

If you are too scared of 3D, yours would be a viable way to do things (and also gives you the opportunity to edit the sprites in 2D), but you are going to spend a lot of time on that.
X frames for going down, X Frames for going Left, X Frames for going Right, X Frames for going up, and that is only four directions. Yeah, I'd rather do it in 3D

The problem with 3D is once you escape the Daz or Illusion Asset Ecosystem you really have to make everything yourself from scratch.
It's the reason why you don't see much Unreal Games here.
This is why I am not actually asking for the impossible.

He was criticizing someone elses abilities to make a game, which is past what i believe he is capable of criticizing. Even copying and pasting code means you need to be able read it, comprehend it just enough, and fix issues or make modifications to it so it will run.

If were to compare Japanese Games with the "Western Adult Games",
Then I can Criticize every last one of you.

Daz and Illusion are Tools to make Content for Porn Games easier if they were not so abused.
Japanese Games can do fine with a bunch of BG, Sprites and a few sex scenes per character.
And they actually draw their art, not render them.

 

[Nagozo]

After all, critics only judge off of what's on their plate, but it's not like they'll go as far as standing in the kitchen to criticize the process.

I feel like this is the crux of what's generating the 'heat' in this thread. It's one thing to say "this game/trope/industry is crap", but this discussion started on the premise that "creating good (porn) games barely requires any skill". It's understandable that people aren't going to be too happy about a blanket attack on the creative process (and their efforts) like that.

 

[Winterfire]

It needs to be said but this, right here, is the absolute dumbest comment I see people make on this site.

I mean that sincerely, it's moronic.

Why, I hear absolutely no one ask?

Well, i'm glad I imagined you asking.

Film critics have never made movies, music critics have never made music, food critics aren't chefs and so on and so forth. You do not need to do something to be able to have a criticism of it.

If that was the case you would have to eat food you didn't like because you aren't a chef, eat your damn raw chicken liver sandwich.

What's that, Friday by Rebecca Black is the best song ever. It absolutely is because none of you are in the music industry so you will enjoy it and be grateful for her lyrical genius.

Twilight, the best love story ever told, you're damn right it is and until you make a ovie of your own you have no room to talk.

See, it's a dumb fuck comment.

I don't need to eat Horse Shit to know it's tastes disgusting. I know what I like and what I don't and if I want to criticise something I damn well will.

If, at any time, someone says to me "well, where's your game then" i'm going to point and laugh in their general direction until they say something that isn't the equivilent of "I have no decent points to make so i'm going to reach into the well of utterly stupid retorts and take a massive steaming shit on the thread with this crappy sentence".

It goes without saying that you still need knowledge about the subject you are making a critic of.
Even knowing "eating horse shit is bad" is knowledge, without ever needing to try it out.

When it comes to games, everyone can play them and have their own experience, so everyone can easily share their opinions on individual games, however...
When it comes to Game Development, you need knowledge on the subject, enjoying and disliking many games is not enough.

While saying "Try making a game yourself" may sound dumb, it is actually a good suggestion in this case.
In this day and age, everyone can make a game. It is really accessible, more than any other thing you have mentioned (Becoming a chef, music critic, and so on).
When someone says "Your updates are slow" and they stop at that, you can easily answer them or ignore the comment, but when they continue with "You should be faster" or other things related to the development of a game, you could explain with boring text why that is not possible, or even ask them to get bored by reading and studying about game development to understand why they were wrong, or... You could suggest the funny alternative of making a game themselves.
It is fun, and it doesn't take much time to figure out why updates of a certain scale might take long.

Most games here are not "3D" they are 3DCG aka Renders.

We are talking about a specific game though, and what it'd take to replicate it. 3DCGs won't cut it.

The problem with 3D is once you escape the Daz or Illusion Asset Ecosystem you really have to make everything yourself from scratch.
It's the reason why you don't see much Unreal Games here.
This is why I am not actually asking for the impossible.

Yes and no, the accessibility nowdays is really high.
Vroid Studio requires you to make some things from scratch, but with easy to use tools, and most of the hard stuff is handled by the software... In many ways, it is a sort of Koikatu Character Creator.
Blender has many plugins and generators, so even if you'd expect to make everything from scratch there, it's not as hard as you might imagine.

If you want something more stylized (the 3D chibi characters), you need to learn modelling on blender or other similar software, but it is not the end of the world. It is doable by solo devs as long as you put some effort.

 

[DuniX]

We are talking about a specific game though, and what it'd take to replicate it. 3DCGs won't cut it.

By your logic this industry wouldn't exist if we didn't figure out how to replicate "Visual Novels".
I would perfectly satisfied with games that use Honey Select/Koikatsu/Daz.
So where are they?

Yes and no, the accessibility nowdays is really high.
Vroid Studio requires you to make some things from scratch, but with easy to use tools, and most of the hard stuff is handled by the software... In many ways, it is a sort of Koikatu Character Creator.
Blender has many plugins and generators, so even if you'd expect to make everything from scratch there, it's not as hard as you might imagine.

Maybe, I don't know any projects using them so I don't know in practice how easy or hard it is to make a Porn Game with it.
My point is Koikatsu does exist and can be used and have everything you need for the most part. So there is no excuse.

 

[demonbra]

ANYONE can make a game that gets good reviews and a lot of players.

It's been shown time and again that certain content will get people in regardless of quality.

All you need is incest.

Seriously, go check out every incest game and they all have players and they all have reviews from people saying how good they are and some of them will be the absolute shittest games you will ever have the misfortune to lay your eyes on but because you can bang mommy dearest they get the stars.

For years we had the exact same formula. Guy comes home from 5+ years abroad. Dad either left or dead. 2 sisters, one older and one younger with the older one hating the MC and having an attitude problem and the younger one loving him. The mother turning into a cock craving whore at the first sight of her sons cock because despite having 2 kids and more sexual experience than anyone else in the house this is porn and logic be damned.

None of them were good games but they all had a lot of players because it's incest and, I honestly mean no offence, incest players are very easily pleased. Arguably the easiest crowd to please. I've seen them settle for utter shit just because of incest.

Now we've moved on and the old tropes are dead.

Now waking up in a coma with amnesia is all the rage.

Pretty much what I said too, but OP doesn't seams to agree. Lol.

 

[Winterfire]

By your logic this industry wouldn't exist if we didn't figure out how to replicate "Visual Novels".
I would perfectly satisfied with games that use Honey Select/Koikatsu/Daz.
So where are they?


Maybe, I don't know any projects using them so I don't know in practice how easy or hard it is to make a Porn Game with it.
My point is Koikatsu does exist and can be used and have everything you need for the most part. So there is no excuse.

All my answers so far have been related to "Escape dungeon 2" alone.
I didn't really follow much else in this thread before getting pinged.
So from this ignorance of mine (and lazyness to read 3 pages worth of replies), I'll simply reply with "There are many games using KK/HS/Daz". What is your issue with that? My game uses KK too, btw.

 

[DuniX]

All my answers so far have been related to "Escape dungeon 2" alone.
I didn't really follow much else in this thread before getting pinged.
So from this ignorance of mine (and lazyness to read 3 pages worth of replies), I'll simply reply with "There are many games using KK/HS/Daz". What is your issue with that? My game uses KK too, btw.

My point is what if you take Escape Dungeon 2 + KK/HS/Daz.

More specifically Cheap + Easy + Good can be achieved if you get a bit creative.

 

[Nagozo]

My point is what if you take Escape Dungeon 2 + KK/HS/Daz.

Then the porn game fairies come visit you at midnight and bestow you with the perfect project. They set up all the code and assets while you're sleeping, and just like that when you wake up you're a successful dev

 

[anne O'nymous]

Film critics have never made movies, music critics have never made music, food critics aren't chefs and so on and so forth. You do not need to do something to be able to have a criticism of it.

But they also do not criticize how the movies, music or meals are made, only talking about the final result. Would a critic start talking about the making process itself, saying that this part of the melody should have been played by a violin and not a guitar, that "here" it should have be a close up and not a panoramic view, and so on, he would be hit by the exact same comment that you found dumb.
There's a difference between saying that the filet mignon tasted like shit, what a critic do, and saying that the chief is an idiot who should have heated his meat twelve seconds more, turned the pepper mill once more, and used coriander instead of capers, what is the topic here.