I think some designers are missing the point of making an erotic game

[OhWee]

It's not gonna be soon, as my plate is full. But I plan on releasing a game with a D&D feel to it at some point, it'll have combat and progression, and it'll also be the type of thing that shows a game like Lust & Power is poorly paced and grindy. Don't get me wrong, I loved the premise of the game, but it just got too much into the grind with not enough reward to make it worth the effort.

Dancing & Diddling?

There's a brothel currently in operation named Inez's D&D btw...

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Not sure how combat and progression would tie into a brothel though. Wait, there is that Simbro game that has combat, and even combat sex moves!

This bit of obsfucation brought you by Oh Wee. Now back to your Fantasy RPG discussion... wait this thread is about designers missing the point...

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As for the OP's thoughts, the problem is that you have people that are looking at this game design thing as a source of income, which puts a lot of designers in the mindset of 'how much can I stretch this out while still maximizing my income?'. Unlike AAA games which get full releases, the game design model here is very incremental, so the more increments you can squeeze in while keeping your patrons on the hook... sure some AAA games do the incremental thing too, but not to the degree you see here. Unless you want to count Star Citizen...

I (not so) lovingly refer to this phenomenon as MMP, or Milking My Patrons. One notorious example of this has been mentioned already (17 updates and still no sex with the main love interest). I probably should congratulate the designer on so artfully manipulating his patrons into accepting this as normal (it helps that there is a bit of action on the side with other characters so it isn't completely devoid of vaginal/anal sex), and hence his patrons are willing to put up with it.

But, of course, you can accomplish almost the same thing (revenue stream wise) by completing one game/story and progressing to the next game/story, which can even be in the same setting. A perfect example are the Mortze and Tlaero series of games (Finding Miranda, Dreaming With Elsa, etc.). The stories are all 'self contained', each with decent amounts of erotic action, but they are interconnected, which makes the series of games rather appealing. And the releases are usually one shot releases (Pandora was a two parter), where you aren't waiting each month for the 'latest update' to that game, but are instead are anxiously awaiting the next game. I'm sure you can think of a few other examples where the designers do this, although several do a 'hybrid' of the 'multiple releases for a game' along with 'then progress to the next story/part of the story'.

If your 'game universe framework' is compelling enough, this 'multiple games in the same storyline framework' model can work quite nicely... and you can reuse characters, locations, etc. as appropriate to your story, while introducing new ones as well.

Just a thought.

 

[redknight00]

For starters I'll quote what I said in another thread:

I've been thinking about grinding, the way I see the main problems when the grind are: progress and fairness. Repeating a scene several times to get to the new content is frustrating because it doesn't give the player a clear sense of progress, a good example is Four Elements Trainer, each scene has slightly variations and marks the progress of the player, so every time they have to repeat a scene it will offer something new and a clear indication that they are going in the right direction.

The amount is also important as well as a goal to work towards, repeating the same scene 15 times to maybe get a new one is an absurd, grind at its best is encouraging, fair and with objectives, like in a RPG where the player is always grinding to the next level, or repeating a boss for the unique loot. Basic game design also dictates the player should get stronger and more efficient as the story progresses, this way they will feel better with grinding higher number and encouraged to test the increasing powers.

IMO grind, and its VN counterpart the non-ero story, are important, even fundamental for a game of any kind. However, some adult games do tend to go heavy on it, and I think it's because the developers don't have experience with making actual games and just put arbitrary hurdles between scenes without thinking and then play the game in debug mode just to see if it's working.

Regarding the teasing, my opinion is that is comes from the perspective (both from patrons and devs) that in a story consensual sex is the endgame, and because the developer wants to keeping milking said game they will keep teasing the player until they are ready to move on.

 

[j4yj4m]

I (not so) lovingly refer to this phenomenon as MMP, or Milking My Patrons. One notorious example of this has been mentioned already (17 updates and still no sex with the main love interest). I probably should congratulate the designer on so artfully manipulating his patrons into accepting this as normal (it helps that there is a bit of action on the side with other characters so it isn't completely devoid of vaginal/anal sex), and hence his patrons are willing to put up with it.

I think that's not entirely fair to be honest. Everybody with half a braincell knew nothing would happen anytime soon and calling that manipulation is way over the top. It's plain and simple obvious and part of the game. There are just quite a few people who actually enjoy this kind of slow and at least to a degree realistic and rather well written timeframe as an alternative to the usual fast paced game style of most games. The side action is indeed there to compensate the demands of those who really can't live without at least some sex per update.

But, of course, you can accomplish almost the same thing (revenue stream wise) by completing one game/story and progressing to the next game/story, which can even be in the same setting.

But revenue is not really what it has to be about. If a dev wants to tell a story about characters X and Y getting close and building their relationship it's not really up to us to tell him to shorten his story because it doesn't fit the general narrative of H game developement. At least in my opinion there is a big difference between many short stories and one long story. Each has their appeal but neither is per se good/better or indeed bad.

Last but not least I would never call any of that milking. As long as patreons actually get the content they are promised it's up to them to decide if they like it or not. The milking starts when definite promises are made which then aren't kept (like advertising one would get a sex scene "next update/anytime soon" and then not delivering on those promises).

 

[Benn Swagger]

TLDR TLDR TLDR

Most developers whatever genres or types ... make the game without solid structure how it's start & when it's end. They just expand the story as the developing goes. This is like how Mexican making Soap Opera, when the rating still good or the cast still available, they will keep it making until the end of the world.

Once the rating peaking & start falling dawn, some finally decide to end it with grace, some decide to end it with disgraceful rushed version to save some reputation, some still continue till it drowned to abandoned.

In my book, Virtual Novel is still a novel. It's a novel adapted to a virtual games. So there has to be a finished novel before adapted to other version, in this case a game. With an existed finished Novel, the structure will be solid with some simple change to became a game. Yet, many of these developer didn't make any novel at first. They just making shit up until people start to get bored then end the game.

Say what you will developer, I'm really not interest anymore to Virtual Novel / Story Driven ~ Games without [Completed] Tag on the title.

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

It's not gonna be soon, as my plate is full. But I plan on releasing a game with a D&D feel to it at some point, it'll have combat and progression, and it'll also be the type of thing that shows a game like Lust & Power is poorly paced and grindy. Don't get me wrong, I loved the premise of the game, but it just got too much into the grind with not enough reward to make it worth the effort.

I think the premise is like an adolescent power fantasy, it's what a pervy teen might fantasize about after being grounded. ''Ooh, I wish I had superpowers so that my mom would have to listen to me! I'd bring her food and she'd have to reward me with seks!'' Not that there's anything wrong with it, I find it refreshingly exploitative.

I don't like fantasy settings but I'll give your game a try if you release it, see what ideas you have. I think L&P works for me because it has a steady stream of content tied to the progression and the next step is never far off. They also change things up towards the current late game, which presumably will be the midgame in the finished version. New items, a store, different combat tactics if you want to harvest hearts, etc.

 

[freedom.call]

There are not many porn vids with battles, or battle movies with porn...I don't really get the point of having fighting in porn games, or porn in fighting games.

Same with other obstacles like puzzles, you just don't see them in porn vids. Or porn in puzzle vids for that matter. :biggrin:

Just...why??

 

[j4yj4m]

There are not many porn vids with battles, or battle movies with porn...I don't really get the point of having fighting in porn games, or porn in fighting games.

Same with other obstacles like puzzles, you just don't see them in porn vids. Or porn in puzzle vids for that matter. :biggrin:

Just...why??

I guess that really depends on the main focus of the game. Do you want actual porn? Then you should remove as many grinds and obstacles as possible. Do you want an actual game that's nice to play (maybe even for hours) and that has some erotic content? Then it's something different and it's not only about porn but about acutally playing the game/telling the story.

 

[freedom.call]

I guess that really depends on the main focus of the game. Do you want actual porn? Then you should remove as many grinds and obstacles as possible. Do you want an actual game that's nice to play (maybe even for hours) and that has some erotic content? Then it's something different and it's not only about porn but about acutally playing the game/telling the story.

I like story, I don't mind having to do 'stuff' to get to the porn. I'm not interested in fighting though, not in fighting games and not in porn games, so I'm consistent at least.

Minigames are fine but not when I have to download something like auto-clicker to get it done, at least make it doable without. I admit I play porn/adult games for the most part for porn/adult content.

Maybe I'm just rubbish. ensive:

 

[j4yj4m]

I like story, I don't mind having to do 'stuff' to get to the porn. I'm not interested in fighting though, not in fighting games and not in porn games, so I'm consistent at least.

Minigames are fine but not when I have to download something like auto-clicker to get it done, at least make it doable without. I admit I play porn/adult games for the most part for porn/adult content.

That's what individual taste is for I guess. The problem I often have with those kind of fighting games is that the fighting system is really bad, but for example

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is still one of my favourites and has quite a lot of fighting. Luckily there are so many different ones that most of us will find something. I mean there are quite a few people who don't really want to do anything and even they will find their games.

 

[GuyFreely]

@j4yj4m Oh yes, of course, I don't think you should have the player repeating any activity 20 times (there may be exceptions). To my earlier point, if there is a repetitive activity, you should do your best to make it different each time.

I also don't mind when work or other repeated activities simply take up a time slot and don't make you sit through it. If you just click and it goes "okay, you worked" that's not that big of a deal. At the same time, if I have to do three map transitions to get to work and then three more to get home, you're already taking too much of my time.

Again, I'm not arguing for porn activity from start to finish, I'm arguing for meaningful or engaging activities. If you have a fun combat system and people are into it, great. The alternative to making "fun" activities is to make them sexy somehow. Once again, moving the story forward is generally an engaging activity if you have a good story. As with anything, all of these need to be balanced out.

@DarthSeduction As far as the progressing by day or time slots, I can take it or leave it. I generally prefer the method you are considering where you only hit the high points. I don't mind there being a time progression as long as those time slots are meaningful. If too many of the time slots I'm essentially "waiting" ie. doing nothing, it becomes tedious. Also, if it's the situation where I go somewhere and it says "you can't do that now" over and over again, then make it clear before I even try.

I'm going to get on another slight tangent here. If the player can't do an activity, try to stop them from even trying as early as possible. If I got to a location and walk up to the door and then get told I can't do it, just don't let me go there in the first place. Similarly, if it's the type of game where characters move around to different locations, don't even let me go somewhere that has zero interactions. What's the point of the player being able to go somewhere where nothing happens? This gets into something I've touched on before of making it a mystery of the right combination of when, where, and who to get content. This is not engaging, it's a guessing game. Players like me will keep trying bad combinations just to make sure we aren't missing anything.

I guess one exception would be easter eggs or "hidden" content. Again, it's not really something I want in a game. If you want me to experience the content, give me an obvious path to that content. It's fine if a player doesn't get 100% of the content in one play through because of design elements, like say choosing between characters to romance or choosing love vs. lust. Just don't make me pixel hunt hidden objects or similar time wasters.

 

[GuyFreely]

Yes, I believe there is a fair amount of developers trying to stretch games out to maximize earnings. Here's the thing, if the developer is delivering solid content with every update, then have at it. If the developer is just wasting everyone's time, then why bother. This is bound to backfire at some point. If you aren't making what people want, they will stop supporting you. At least in theory. If you have a long drawn out story that people are invested in and are willing to wait to see how it ends, that's fine. If people want it, give it to them. If on the other hand, people just want you to get to the point already, then get to the point. I realize things like artistic vision and consumer demand don't always see eye to eye, but I'm not really referring to people who have a plan and a vision they want to deliver on.

This does become a subjective thing at some point. How much of the content is erotic and not erotic. I agree there there are two main camps: the erotic game and the game with erotic elements. The main difference being the balance of contents. A game with erotic elements is more of a game first and porn second. Whereas an erotic game is mostly about the erotic content and giving a story to experience it through. How much time a VN author spends on the build up or progression before or between erotic scenes is up to them to decide. Likewise, each person will have varying tolerances for this. As I've stated several times, I think meaningful story progression is acceptable content. I don't think wasting the player's time is content.

 

[DarthSeduction]

There are not many porn vids with battles, or battle movies with porn...I don't really get the point of having fighting in porn games, or porn in fighting games.

Same with other obstacles like puzzles, you just don't see them in porn vids. Or porn in puzzle vids for that matter. :biggrin:

Just...why??

I don't know about you but I'm not playing erotic games to get the same thing I get from porn. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I'm playing erotic games because there's something I'm missing from porn. Do all porn games need combat? Certainly not. However combat is a good way to get you invested in your character's story. You see their struggle and desire to see them, set up as the hero, win. For my part, any game in which I design a combat system will make sense to the game, unlike say, early icstor and iccreations titles where the combat was added to pad game time. As I said earlier I have a plan involving a Dungeons and Dragons like plot. I don't think I can actually use D&D names and places though so I'll have to get creative, but it'll be the start. Combat will occur occasionally and in relation to the narrative, but, like a real game of D&D I plan on there being ways to avoid combat as well, if you know your way around the characters and their abilities. However, the MC in this game will be a Warlock pledged to an elder god of lust, and there's your reason for the massive amounts of sexual content I also plan to throw at this game. Tavern wenches, party members, royalty, etc, you'll fuck your way across the continent while both fleeing and searching for a way to defeat the forces of darkness that follow you.

I'd never put combat into a basic modern brother sister incest game. However I would put it into a superhero game. And that's generally the rule of thumb. Sometimes I want a little sex with my power fantasies, and boy howdy can it be fun when you get to add in different races and mutants and all sorts of other kinky things because you've opened the door with a heightened setting.

 

[GuyFreely]

@DarthSeduction I agree that people are playing porn games instead of just watching porn for a reason. They want to be engaged, they want to be pulled into the scene. So design elements should be set up to support this. The question should be, is this activity engaging the player? I think combat is a perfectly valid system to get the player to the erotic content in the right settings. The onus is on you to make the combat fun and not boring. Again, it's subjective, but if I find the combat system to be boring and repetitive, I'll look for a way around it or just give up. If you have my love/lust interest say "I will lay with you if you can slay 20 orcs!" and I have to fight one orc at a time methodically. The same shit over and over, a few minutes per fight twenty times, no thanks. If it's "Bring me the dragon's heart to win my favor." Then I fight a massive dragon and it's fun, cool. Oversimplified examples, but you get the point.

 

[freedom.call]

I don't know about you but I'm not playing erotic games to get the same thing I get from porn.

Well, you're...special. :relievedface: :biggrin:

You see their struggle and desire to see them, set up as the hero, win.

When I play....lose, dead. x'D

Tavern wenches, party members, royalty, etc, you'll fuck your way across the continent

I'm no Prince Charles or Donald Trump, just sayin'.

I'd never put combat into a basic modern brother sister incest game. However I would put it into a superhero game. And that's generally the rule of thumb. Sometimes I want a little sex with my power fantasies, and boy howdy can it be fun when you get to add in different races and mutants and all sorts of other kinky things because you've opened the door with a heightened setting.

No one should ever listen to me about what to put in games, but not even I would have a superhero doing a paper route.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Then there is working for your mother, while it does have some scenes, the job proper is largely a hidden object mini game (sigh). Please stop putting time wasting activities in these games.

Well, I tend to dislike mini-games, but I'm still far to ask authors to remove the "game" in "adult game".

The other problem along these lines is what I would refer to as the "slow burn" game. Where the erotic part of the game is all at the back end.

You know, the more I read you, the more I'm asking myself what you are doing here ? There's a lot of taste among people, and it's fine, but why do you bother with adult games when what you are seeking is in fact porn videos with a plot ?

The thing that baffles me is that the early version of the game has what seems like 100s of rendered scenes but almost none of them are erotic.

No, seriously, why are you loosing your time here when pornhub have all you're looking for ?

I just feel like with the pure amount of effort that has been put into the game's renders, they are missing the point of the game.

Except that the point of the game A Wife and Mother, is to decide if the mother will be a good wife and stay faithful to her husband, or at the opposite if she'll open to her sexuality. Because, yes, both play are 100% legit. Having a whole play session of an adult game without seeing a single lewd scene is a thing that people can do ; and they like it as much as the session with lewd scenes.
The point is not, never was and never will be, to help you masturbate. So, sorry, but the author is aiming straight to the point of the game.

I personally think they are wasting their time and the player's at this point, though that is bound to change (I hope). Don't get me wrong, I think the game is high on quality, just low on substance.

You is the key word here ; and in fact in all your post. While I personally dislike it, A Mother and Wife is a highly liked game, for its quality as well as its substance.

In short, please don't forget why people are playing your game.

They aren't, but the fact is that you also aren't part of the people they target. They make game for people who want some kind of entertainment with a content which will be some times lewd, and that exactly what they do. Adult games are the interactive form of adult literacy. They exist to make you fantasy, not to make you fap, they target your brain, not your hand.

The reason we play the games on here is because we want them to be erotic, plain and simple.

Please, don't talk for me. The reason I play the games is because they are entertaining and spice my life with the fantasy they let grow in my mind. Then sometimes I look at a porn movie for a good fap session to end the process.

 

[GuyFreely]

Well, I tend to dislike mini-games, but I'm still far to ask authors to remove the "game" in "adult game".

What constitutes a game can be quite varied. Especially on here, where many items are visual novels and not games in a more traditional sense. However, throwing a mini-game into a VN doesn't magically transform it into more of a game. Especially if it's not engaging.

No, seriously, why are you loosing your time here when pornhub have all you're looking for ?

Obviously it doesn't or I wouldn't be here. It's a bit reductionist and I feel like you've missed my larger point. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you only read my first post and not the rest of the thread. What I'm advocating is that designers not put pointless time wasting elements in these games or VN or whatever you want to call them. I'm not advocating that everything on this site be wall to wall fucking.

Except that the point of the game A Wife and Mother, is to decide if the mother will be a good wife and stay faithful to her husband, or at the opposite if she'll open to her sexuality. Because, yes, both play are 100% legit. Having a whole play session of an adult game without seeing a single lewd scene is a thing that people can do ; and they like it as much as the session with lewd scenes.
The point is not, never was and never will be, to help you masturbate. So, sorry, but the author is aiming straight to the point of the game.

They aren't, but the fact is that you also aren't part of the people they target. They make game for people who want some kind of entertainment with a content which will be some times lewd, and that exactly what they do. Adult games are the interactive form of adult literacy. They exist to make you fantasy, not to make you fap, they target your brain, not your hand.

Please, don't talk for me. The reason I play the games is because they are entertaining and spice my life with the fantasy they let grow in my mind. Then sometimes I look at a porn movie for a good fap session to end the process.

Maybe you are right, maybe I am way outside the target audience for this one. I don't find the concept of playing a good wife to be particularly engaging. I have seen games where, like you say, you can get all the way through without any erotic content. At that point, I have to ask why? I don't mean why play a game like that, MOST games have no erotic content. I just don't see the point of playing an erotic game that isn't erotic. It's like playing a fighting game as a pacifist or a dating sim as a loner. I guess I see some ironic fun to be had in that way, but it just seems a bit odd to me.

I wasn't trying to speak for everyone per se. I was trying to make a larger point. Yes, I do think erotic games should be erotic, otherwise they are just games or VN. If you played a something labeled as a space game and they spent the whole time preparing for the journey, but never actually left the ground, you might wonder why it was even called a space game. I realize different people are looking for different things when it comes to the games on this site. I guess my assumption (perhaps incorrect?) is that these games should all be erotic in some form or another.

Again, the main issue I am concerned with is wasting the player's time. Erotic content aside, imagine you were reading an ebook and halfway through you had to play what amounts to a shitty mobile game to be able to read any more of the book. Now if you knew this going in, or perhaps if the game tied directly into the story you might accept it. But if it just shows up and makes you spend 30min not reading the book you want to read, is it a valuable addition?

 

[uradamus]

It's like playing a fighting game as a pacifist or a dating sim as a loner.

Heh, this made me think about Postal 2, where you can get an achievement for getting through the whole game without engaging in combat, even though fighting is the much more natural and satisfying way through the content. But it was a fun challenge going through as a pacifist running away from all the conflicts.

 

[GuyFreely]

Heh, this made me think about Postal 2, where you can get an achievement for getting through the whole game without engaging in combat, even though fighting is the much more natural and satisfying way through the content. But it was a fun challenge going through as a pacifist running away from all the conflicts.

Yeah, I guess there is something to be said for having the temptation and not giving in. To me that's just normal life. I want to punch people in the face on plenty of occasions, but I wouldn't risk the consequences. Games let you do the things you can't always do in real life, they let you live the fantasy. So I guess it just doesn't appeal to me in the sense that resisting temptation is far too common in real life and games are escapist fantasy for me. I would venture a guess that a large majority of people playing the games here aren't looking for the no sex route

 

[uradamus]

At least in the case of Postal 2, the pacifist route is probably the hardest and craziest, because none of the other citizens share your desire for peace. So trying to escape a cult compound being raided by the police, or a meat packing plant full of gun toting rapacious rednecks or any of a number of buildings being overrun or burnt down by extremist protesters/terrorists all becomes insanely difficult when you decide to use nothing but piss and tasers to keep the crazies at bay, lol. Now I kinda want to replay it again. XD

 

[Centrophy]

Even that is a bit more than I was talking about. Recently myself and a fellow developer have been talking about breaking away from the daily progression style most games go with. Instead of following our character as he wakes up each day and goes about his day we intend to simply follow them for the important bits. Think of your average television show. You don't follow the character through their boring parts of the day unless its being played for comedy. There's no reason that a similar concept of time and progression can't be applied to our games. For my part, I'm in the midst of writing a story following a girl who's a senior in high school, and the story is going to take a more, and this comparison is mostly related to time, but a more Harry Potter like story progression. We aren't going to follow her to every class, just the ones that are critical to the plot. We aren't going to go to the bathroom with her every day, just when something is going to happen. We aren't going to spend days grinding in between dates, if a date gets set up it will happen, and we will move on.

So NewLife. That one has a weekly schedule and you (the player) only interact during events and to set up the schedule for the week. As for the OP, I mostly agree with you. There really is too much grind in a lot of these games. Granted, it could be worse. It could be something like game-over rape (GOR) which is antithetical to what a video game player wants; a person playing a game wants to win the game, while a person playing a porn game wants to see the scenes which can only be done by losing.

On the opposite spectrum we have things like Kamidori which seems like the porn gets in the way of the gameplay. Hell, there's not really any scenes for the first few hours or so (up to ten for some players) and after that the porn doesn't stop.