I think some designers are missing the point of making an erotic game

uradamus

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@GuyFreely Oh god, that is something I totally hate, games with excessive travel time penalties! Glassix is a notorious one on that front for me. In general I am the same, where when I see the RPGM tag it is an automatic strike against the game for credibility, but not something that makes me write it off on its own. Having grown up in the '80s I used to love a good RPG. I like the concept of a top down game world, but devs really have to have a good justification for going that route in an ero game and most just don't.

As far as choices, they only tend to annoy me when I am playing a game where I want to go after a particular girl/ending and I don't want to use a guide. If I can't just naturally make choices with that desire in mind and get to her good/bad endings, then I consider that a failure on the part of the game dev(s) and usually down to there being a lot of arbitrary guess based choices along the way. This is the kinda thing that often dissuades me from trying many of the really big VNs that tout a lot of endings and 30+ hours of play time as I know I'm almost certainly going to need a guide to navigate to the endings I'm actually interested in, which is a real shame as I want to love long VN games. I love to read good fiction, even when there's little to no sexual content, but so many devs lay out their choices so poorly to the point I'm now gun shy about giving other games the benefit of the doubt.
 

Memorin

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TLDR; if you want to make a good RPGM game at least consult anyone of the thousands of Japanese RPGM games that are out there.
 

DarthSeduction

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I agree with the dead fish, but can't completely agree with the narrative reason. Not that you are wrong, but you're not necessarily right either.
For the sake of brevity I'll just quote this one piece, but to your example, because it's so similar to Man of the House, I'll be relating it to that in how I, still keeping the life sim format, and following the game, would have managed this type of interaction.

*I haven't played this since December or January, but since this game was the one that was essentially my last straw in playing games that just irritated me, inspiring me to become a developer, I remember it's flow more than specific details like names, so forgive me for not remembering them.

Little Sister - Now, the little sister is the typical little sister route in a Life Sim. You have to help her with her homework, and eventually this leads to sex ed. Basic fantasy nothing great about it, but nothing wrong with it. The study sessions themselves are just a render of you two sitting and hitting the books, but there's no substance to them, they're just, like with many work situations in these games, click and time passes. On top of this you greet her in the morning and compliment her, if you're in the dining room at the correct time, and you can choose to watch a film with her each night. Now, after you help her pass, I believe it was her math test, she advances things with you, and you can move on to other subjects, eventually landing on Anatomy or Biology or whatever. I think, before that, you have to have watched a romantic film or two with her, and kissed her then, not sure, but once you do the bio homework you get the curiosity bug and the making out. Things progress from here though almost entirely on an accumulation of points through repetition. You will also get her to sleep in the same bed as you only if you watched a horror movie, which on top of being repetitive, seems a bit silly, because there should come a point where you can simply invite her to sleep with you.

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The Mom - God do I hate this line. So, with mommy dearest, you have the getting her drunk so you can get further with a massage part, then the convenient conversation with the aunt about how any dick will do at this point, then the god awful hypnotized by the dick part, and finally the Psychologist fake out which rounds this out to one count of date rape and several counts of impersonating a medical professional as well as sexual assault. As you can see I really don't like this line. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good corruption plot, but I don't think this is one, and moreover, I don't think this particular path works with this mom.

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The Older Sister - This is the route I am the most mad at. The little sister and mom routes not being great is whatever, they're pretty basic routes, but this one had potential because in comparison to it's contemporaries in the genre, it was relatively unique. It starts with tropey older sister is a bitch. Then it has her call you late at night to pick her up at the police station because she got picked up and doesn't want mom to know, so you blackmail her, and this is fine, until you push it too far and she reverses the blackmail on you. Then, you blackmail her again, but this time with her boss, and while getting her to do your chores, accidentally discover that she has a submissive streak, and start turning her sub.

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I want to be clear, that with the little sister and the big sister, aside from creating romantic/corrupt and vanilla/depraved routes, I'd hit all the same beats the story does already. I'd retread the same ground. However, I'd give the characters a motivation, reason, to be interested in continuing their relations. I'd advance the plot following a process that makes sense narratively and still builds anticipation, using the same beats, but without the repetition to build points just to pad game time. I would chain events together to create meaning to them, and how they culminate in their respective advancements.

The changes I make to the mother's plot are more about creating a valid character, and not a cartoon. There's nothing wrong with a character being undeniably attracted to the MC. But there is a problem of breaking suspension of disbelief when the source of that attraction is hypnocock syndrome, and stupid woman in her 40's-itus. Even though I said I'd do a page 1 rewrite I tried to salvage some beats that made sense, while still creating a more well rounded and self motivated character. I didn't mention the yoga activities, but I'd probably keep them, throw them in just before or after the phone call with the sister, as a sort of beginning to the hard corruption of her morality.
 

BannedAccount6543

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@DarthSeduction , looks like you're going to make one of the best games to be posted here! Unless you get side tracked by Patreon and your patrons' demands that you have to choose between your own developer integrity and the financial requirements of your life. Not an easy task. Good luck!
 
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anne O'nymous

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For the sake of brevity I'll just quote this one piece, but to your example, because it's so similar to Man of the House, I'll be relating it to that in how I, still keeping the life sim format, and following the game, would have managed this type of interaction.
[...]
Things progress from here though almost entirely on an accumulation of points through repetition. You will also get her to sleep in the same bed as you only if you watched a horror movie, which on top of being repetitive, seems a bit silly, because there should come a point where you can simply invite her to sleep with you.
Apparently I messed my post, too bad for my hopes ;) Because the example I gave is (well, seemed in my mind) not Man of the House, but what Man of the House should have been.


First off, there'd be no dialogue with a character that didn't serve a purpose. If you see your sister in the morning at breakfast, I am going to write a dialogue scene that is relevant to where you are in her progression, maybe more than one, to space things out for the sake of some anticipation, but each will be unique.
That's part of where we differ. I don't talk about making it a big part of the content, but small talk is part of the life and, in its own way, have both a purpose and a meaning. Perhaps is it because it's something I hate to do, but with the years I came to understand its importance in human social relations. And it don't need to be a full scene, a single dialog line can be enough.

I'll say it again, I do not talk about it as a big part of the content, like it is in Man of the House where almost every single dialog is just small talk. But making the girl disappear/not appear because there's nothing more to do is for me a lame and lazy solution. The author don't know how to handle the fact that nothing will happen, having no idea for realistic and still relevant (in its own way) small talk, while perhaps not knowing how to correctly use randomization here, so he simply remove all content.

Take a book by example. A simple, "she was here, in the distance, and while Marc was talking to her, she discretely blinked at me", (when wrote better) say the same than a, "She made me sign to wait for her, and when her discussion with Marc was finished, she came to me and we started talking [blablabla she really liked it, she want to do it again some times]". Being a good book writer is being able to summarize this kind of scene in a single fully relevant line.
This also apply to games. I forgot the name of this game, but you're facing the dean, trying to convince him that no, you didn't past the night in your teacher's bed. And there's this girl, standing beside him. She say nothing, it's just her facial expression which change. But this small changes say the same than a full scene where she would have explained that she's pleased by the way you answered, shutting up dean's mouth, defending your sex buddy teacher, because she like your teacher, she's a friend of her, and anyway you're really a reliable friend, the teacher can be glad to have you, oh by the way, if you were free, she would have banged you right now. And because of these small change, the scene with her which happen later is fast and small. All is already said, she just say a "you did well, tell her she know where to find me if needed".
All isn't just in the scene. If you go full scene every time, even to express small things, you risk to end being boring. At the opposite, if you use everything at your disposition to express the narrative, including sometimes small talk, you'll dynamize the game. Varying the pace of the dialogs isn't enough, you should also vary the pace of the game itself. Exactly like when you write a book or a movie. In fact it's perhaps even more important for a game, because of the full interactivity. And when they are well handled, small talk are one of the way to do it, especially if you don't have full control of the game because you chose to not stick to a linear VN approach.

But obviously, it should not be stupid fixed small talk like it's in Man of the House and, alas, most of the games. Small talk are relevant only if they are made relevant. To keep the example of the little sister, the small talk at first can be something like, "what will you do today". Then it can become something like, "thanks for your help with my lessons, I have better results now". After this it become something like, "I hope that you'll have time to help me again today", then finally it start to be something like, "I really loved our kiss yesterday, can you do it again today".
Obviously, the dialog must be wrote better, but it's part of the narrative and, at least for me, it can say more about a relation than a full scene. At first it's impersonal, the MC's her brother, but that's all. Then it become personal, before becoming more passionate. She don't just need his help, she want his presence. And finally it start to become intimate. What do you need more ?
Put these lines in the game, and with the morning small talk you know exactly where the MC is in his relation with his little sister. So, when it's well handled, it's not a time wasting thing, it's the opposite. Pass 10 seconds talking to her in the morning, and you'll know if there's change in your relation or not. For a game like Man of the House, which is pure grinding, these 10 seconds will tell you if you need to continue your actual grinding, or if you should start to play again the sex scenes, because the relation have evolved and the scene should have done the same. All this with a single line. So it's time saving, you don't have to guess, you don't have to try, you explicitly know.

All this works simply because small talk are out of context. It's easy to say, "I love you", when he's ball deep in you and already made you climax three times in a row. Saying the same out of context, when you cross him in the elevator by example, is a totally different thing which mean way more.
After, when it replace the disappearing/not appearing character, it's also the responsibility of the player to deal with it. Not in a way where he'll have to endure it, but in a way where he understand that, "ok, there's nothing more here for now, I'll come back later, when I'll see a progress somewhere else, to see if it unlocked something new". And, obviously, once you fall to small talk instead of fully relevant narrative, there's no points to gain.


I want to be clear, that with the little sister and the big sister, aside from creating romantic/corrupt and vanilla/depraved routes, I'd hit all the same beats the story does already.
Honestly, this annoy me way more than stupid mini-games and full emptiness grinding scenes.
Why (and it's not directed against you) romantic/corrupt ? There's so much more to do, while in the same times both path aren't necessarily different. You can romantically fuck her deep in the ass, like you can corruptly cuddle her. Offering a comfort session after a strong BDSM session is more than common, and it's not because you're truly and deeply in love that she don't want to be fucked like a whore. The same apply for vanilla/depraved. Having sex with your mother doesn't mean that she's depraved ; it's not a taboo in all civilizations/religions and legal in half of the world. And you can have vanilla sex with your depraved married boss who sleep with every dick she can found.
And once again, here come the power of small talk. You where banging her deep all night long, calling her whore, making her ass sore as fuck while she was begging for more. And in the morning she'll greet you with a, "good morning sweet heart", showing that despite the (relative) roughness of your sex sessions, you're in a romantic relationship. No need of a full scene for this, no need to even write it better. These four words are enough here and say everything which need to be said.


@GuyFreely don't really have time to answer you, but I read what you said, in particular regarding my words about the barrier language. I don't disagree, but I'm not sure that I agree. Not specifically because of what you said, it can be more because of what I read (or how I read it) and the psychological influence that the past discussions have. So, don't think that I ignore you.
 
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DarthSeduction

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That's part of where we differ. I don't talk about making it a big part of the content, but small talk is part of the life and, in its own way, have both a purpose and a meaning. Perhaps is it because it's something I hate to do, but with the years I came to understand its importance in human social relations. And it don't need to be a full scene, a single dialog line can be enough.

I'll say it again, I do not talk about it as a big part of the content, like it is in Man of the House where almost every single dialog is just small talk. But making the girl disappear/not appear because there's nothing more to do is for me a lame and lazy solution. The author don't know how to handle the fact that nothing will happen, having no idea for realistic and still relevant (in its own way) small talk, while perhaps not knowing how to correctly use randomization here, so he simply remove all content.
I agree with making her disappear is lame/lazy, hence why I said I could also just give her a basic greeting line to be had there, and also, that the sex would be repeatable at least, that way you could go back to it if you wanted.

Take a book by example. A simple, "she was here, in the distance, and while Marc was talking to her, she discretely blinked at me", (when wrote better) say the same than a, "She made me sign to wait for her, and when her discussion with Marc was finished, she came to me and we started talking [blablabla she really liked it, she want to do it again some times]". Being a good book writer is being able to summarize this kind of scene in a single fully relevant line.
This also apply to games. I forgot the name of this game, but you're facing the dean, trying to convince him that no, you didn't past the night in your teacher's bed. And there's this girl, standing beside him. She say nothing, it's just her facial expression which change. But this small changes say the same than a full scene where she would have explained that she's pleased by the way you answered, shutting up dean's mouth, defending your sex buddy teacher, because she like your teacher, she's a friend of her, and anyway you're really a reliable friend, the teacher can be glad to have you, oh by the way, if you were free, she would have banged you right now. And because of these small change, the scene with her which happen later is fast and small. All is already said, she just say a "you did well, tell her she know where to find me if needed".
All isn't just in the scene. If you go full scene every time, even to express small things, you risk to end being boring. At the opposite, if you use everything at your disposition to express the narrative, including sometimes small talk, you'll dynamize the game. Varying the pace of the dialogs isn't enough, you should also vary the pace of the game itself. Exactly like when you write a book or a movie. In fact it's perhaps even more important for a game, because of the full interactivity. And when they are well handled, small talk are one of the way to do it, especially if you don't have full control of the game because you chose to not stick to a linear VN approach.
Maybe it would be better to show you how I write a story, because you seem to have read my mind with this comment. This scene already has it's art, so you'll see that some of the dialogues are numbered for art to be inserted, but don't have direction, that's because they've already been completed and I was placing the image numbers alongside the script lines they appear with to make things easier for our coder when he comes trough.

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As this scene continues it actually has something like 70 renders. Suffice it to say, Funfiction is a bit surprised at how visually I want to tell the story, getting down to details like facial expressions to convey feelings and thoughts rather than internal monologues and wordy disjointed unnatural dialogue.

Why (and it's not directed against you) romantic/corrupt ? There's so much more to do, while in the same times both path aren't necessarily different. You can romantically fuck her deep in the ass, like you can corruptly cuddle her. Offering a comfort session after a strong BDSM session is more than common, and it's not because you're truly and deeply in love that she don't want to be fucked like a whore. The same apply for vanilla/depraved.
You're not wrong, but there are those who don't find the types of scenes I'd throw into the more depraved or corruptive routes. Yes, I could have a hard anal fuck session in either line. The difference would be not in what types of sex they would have, but in how they spoke to one another. For instance, the fact that he's making the older sister use her mouth to clean up her mess in the bathroom will turn a lot of people off, while also turning other people on. A hard anal fuck session in a romantic route will be all about how they love one another and how she wants to do this for him. In a corruption route the session is about how she's his to use as he wishes, and how she, through step by step conditioning has chosen to be this. Essentially it opens the door, in my mind, to a relationship based not on love but lust. And that's the major distinction I make between a corruption and romantic route.

I also tend to be of the opinion that, as corruption requires you to make someone choose to change their moral outlook on something and doesn't include as much romantic subtext, it should, in many cases, take more to get certain things to happen. See, morality is a core belief, the simplest way to change a core belief is with an empathetic response. In a romantic line, empathy is everything and everywhere. It's a simple request and a desire to see your partner pleased that gets you to do something you wouldn't normally do. With corruption however, you have to appeal to their desire to see themselves pleased. It's a lot harder to convince someone who is opposed to anal that they're gonna like it if they have no reason to want to believe you. So the point with a corruption route would be more about slowly teasing the dirty side out of you, and less about pleasing one another. The corruption route would contain the exhibitionism, things like remote controlled vibes, essentially the MC getting off, not by romantic sex, but by putting the girls through their paces and watching them become depraved for the sake of depravity.
 

GuyFreely

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So we can boil several paragraphs down to "different people may like different things but what I like is more important so fuck them"....
Fundamentally, no. I still think there are objectively good and bad design choices. It's not black and white, as with most things. That's where you start to get into personal preference. I can't say "all mini-games are bad" because there are ways to make them more relevant (see examples in this thread). I can say that most existing mini-games are bad because they don't serve a purpose other than slowing the player down artificially.

Every element of a game or VN should have a purpose. I think there are three main categories:
Story - Whether it's world building, character development, or just moving the plot forward. The player should learn something they didn't know before. Things like oh, my main love interest likes exhibitionism or the magic of this world is powered by sexual energy. Alternatively, a new development that moves the plot along. Things like, I lost my job and need a new way to earn money.
Erotic Content - While this can serve the story at the same time, this is what makes these game different than other games. Some games might always have story-relevant erotic content, while others just have titties for titties sake. I think either is fine, depending on what you want your game to be.
Player Engagement - Basically, fun. Making a game more of a game. This is the most subjective of the categories because it depends on what people find fun. However, I think most people can agree that repetitive, mindless tasks aren't fun.

If a player interaction doesn't fall into one of these categories, it doesn't need to exist.
 

MrXV

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grind is fine in these adult games. But have the grind have random events/encounters to them. Or something like that. In GirlLife for example, it's a QSP game though but I'm sure it's possible even in Renpy or RPGM to code it in, Having random encounters in the jobs that make you money makes the grind so much easier cause it affects your character in some way including that you earn money. Which helps balance it out, atleast in my opinion. If it's just click and make money, rince and repeat, then it gets stale and boring fast. However, what sort of adult game i like to play really depends on mood and what i want that day, i can play games like Chubby Holidays and have fun with it, despite it being a click and fap game basically. I can play DoD or DMD and enjoy the lenghty tease and go around before getting laid or anything. And i can enjoy money/stat grind if there is content to the grind.
 

Ignazzio

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Seems like this thread is mostly about author not understanding adult market. Adult games aren't necesarily porn. Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens. Not to say about games like Rance with Steam-worthy gameplay value. There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not. A Wife & Mother is a fine example. Our Patreon market is much more porn-focused than Japanese so it might be a reason why some people can't understand that really slow burn and some decent gameplay value is what makes some games interesting. I'm pretty confident that majority of players prefer such style as we can see looking at bestsellers in Japan. Personally I find it a bit silly to play such games for only porn value.
 

MrXV

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Seems like this thread is mostly about author not understanding adult market. Adult games aren't necesarily porn. Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens. Not to say about games like Rance with Steam-worthy gameplay value. There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not. A Wife & Mother is a fine example. Our Patreon market is much more porn-focused than Japanese so it might be a reason why some people can't understand that really slow burn and some decent gameplay value is what makes some games interesting. I'm pretty confident that majority of players prefer such style as we can see looking at bestsellers in Japan. Personally I find it a bit silly to play such games for only porn value.
I agree with you and for me personally, I dont mind the "blue ball" stages of these games with a story that takes a few updates before you shove your dick into someone. I do actually enjoy the teasing and sexual innuendos in renders without it having to be straight up intercourse or porn. A handjob here, a peek there and so on is just fine with me. But that also comes down to personal preference and what gets you off i guess. And some people dont got the patience to read through all that story cause they come on here looking for a quick fap game and go into these games expecting something else than what the game actually is.

But i do think Patreon polls have ruined a lot of adult games too. Devs who rely way too much on patreon polls tend to imo. drag the games in the wrong direction or focus on wrong characters. And deviate a lot from their original concept.
 

Ignazzio

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I agree with you and for me personally, I dont mind the "blue ball" stages of these games with a story that takes a few updates before you shove your dick into someone. I do actually enjoy the teasing and sexual innuendos in renders without it having to be straight up intercourse or porn. A handjob here, a peek there and so on is just fine with me. But that also comes down to personal preference and what gets you off i guess. And some people dont got the patience to read through all that story cause they come on here looking for a quick fap game and go into these games expecting something else than what the game actually is.

But i do think Patreon polls have ruined a lot of adult games too. Devs who rely way too much on patreon polls tend to imo. drag the games in the wrong direction or focus on wrong characters. And deviate a lot from their original concept.
Agree with everything except for the polls. In my opinion polls didn't ruin our market but Patreon and its monthly model of development. Such model is hilarious and can't be considered serious in any development. You can't really build a market on a bunch of unfinished games which are meant to be developed forever. It's also cancerous for all games with slower aproach like A Wife & Mother which are not meant for monthly updates. It has shittons of issues and only a few real pros in my opinion.
 
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215303j

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My opinion:
I like:
- A good story, never mind if it's long (as DmD) to reach a conclusion.
- Meaningful action, like Coceter Chronicles or Last Sovereign

I don't like:
- Grinding for money, stats or waiting for specific events to happen without a way to skip time (BB)
- Irrelevant minigames (Milfy City)

Non-erotic content (such as fighting) should fit the game / storyline and be properly done.
 

uradamus

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Seems like this thread is mostly about author not understanding adult market. Adult games aren't necesarily porn. Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens. Not to say about games like Rance with Steam-worthy gameplay value. There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not. A Wife & Mother is a fine example. Our Patreon market is much more porn-focused than Japanese so it might be a reason why some people can't understand that really slow burn and some decent gameplay value is what makes some games interesting. I'm pretty confident that majority of players prefer such style as we can see looking at bestsellers in Japan. Personally I find it a bit silly to play such games for only porn value.
Talk about not understanding the adult market. You are clearly conflating all Japanese VNs into one lump group, while ignoring the existence of nukige among their ranks. There are thousands of VNs from Japan that jump straight into the action and exist purely as fap material with the story just there to get you from one sex scene to the next. Not to mention their wide assortment of non-VN adult games that are straight up sex sims like the 3D games from Illusion, Teatime and many others.

This isn't to say that I don't enjoy a good eroge that is mostly just story with only a few intimate scenes, I read those all the time too. But trying to pretend like Japan only has light hentai VNs comes across as either ignorant or disingenuous. There's a place for both story heavy games and unabashed raunch and everything in between if there is someone who gets enjoyment out of making or consuming it.
 

thecardinal

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My opinion:
I like:
- A good story, never mind if it's long (as DmD) to reach a conclusion.
- Meaningful action, like Coceter Chronicles or Last Sovereign

I don't like:
- Grinding for money, stats or waiting for specific events to happen without a way to skip time (BB)
- Irrelevant minigames (Milfy City)

Non-erotic content (such as fighting) should fit the game / storyline and be properly done.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but did DMD ever make a conclusion? I haven't played since the Patreon change and I thought it was abandoned for Melody.
 
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215303j

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Maybe I'm mistaken, but did DMD ever make a conclusion? I haven't played since the Patreon change and I thought it was abandoned for Melody.
It's not abandoned, an update came out yesterday. But since it's no longer on Patreon, updates are slower and most likely the story won't be fully developed in the end.
 
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Ignazzio

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Talk about not understanding the adult market. You are clearly conflating all Japanese VNs into one lump group, while ignoring the existence of nukige among their ranks. There are thousands of VNs from Japan that jump straight into the action and exist purely as fap material with the story just there to get you from one sex scene to the next. Not to mention their wide assortment of non-VN adult games that are straight up sex sims like the 3D games from Illusion, Teatime and many others.

This isn't to say that I don't enjoy a good eroge that is mostly just story with only a few intimate scenes, I read those all the time too. But trying to pretend like Japan only has light hentai VNs comes across as either ignorant or disingenuous. There's a place for both story heavy games and unabashed raunch and everything in between if there is someone who gets enjoyment out of making or consuming it.
I didn't say nothing about nukiges. There are more openly porn games in Japan than all games on Patreon in 10 years. I will quote myself: "There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not." And author seems to consider all adult games as a porn with sex in its focus when it's clearly not the truth. I don't judge other tastes - it's fine to like one type over another - but bashing all games in general just for a lack of porn doesn't feel right.
 

uradamus

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I didn't say nothing about nukiges. There are more openly porn games in Japan than all games on Patreon in 10 years. I will quote myself: "There are games that can be considered as a porn and games which are clearly not." And author seems to consider all adult games as a porn with sex in its focus when it's clearly not the truth. I don't judge other tastes - it's fine to like one type over another - but bashing all games in general just for a lack of porn doesn't feel right.
Yes, I know you didn't say anything about nukige, that was my point since you also said "Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens." Which is definitely false on several levels. Only a small portion of VNs, mainly from top studios, even reach those lengths in the first place.

VNs in Japan, despite making up about 70% of released games, are actually rather niche. It's really hard to get a foothold in that market. Not many people buy the games so the prices tend to be on the high side making it harder for those in that already limited market to buy more than a game or two a month most of the time. Yet with the ease of making VNs with a small budget and tiny teams the market is way over-saturated. Put all this together and most have to rely on high sexual content to give more bang for the buck in hopes of winning enough attention to stay afloat.

Because of this the market is actually flooded with Nukige, they are far more common than your thought provoking 60+ hour epics with tons of endings and minimal sex scenes. It's usually only the biggest, most established companies that can reliably make back their money off those. Many of the smaller studios that tried their hand at big games have gone down hard. This led to the relatively short (10-30 hour) sex heavy games becoming the mainstay for most small studios who want to stay in the business. And since surviving through a release and making enough off it to fund the next project is the definition of success in this industry, it's safe to say the majority of successful adult games in Japan are actually from the nukige end of the spectrum.
 
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User_51567

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I think that some Gamers are missing the point of Playing a Erotic Game....

IT IS A GAME.... not a pornhub movie, not a Adult comic.... IT IS A GAME.
And as with many, many other games in the world.... It takes times and effort to play it.....

And i know...Patience and putting effort in to something is real scary for a lot of people these days....
But if you are only interested in "pixels doing naughty things".... Then go look at some Hentai movies or something.
And leave games for the people who actually like putting some effort into something.
 

Ignazzio

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May 8, 2017
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Yes, I know you didn't say anything about nukige, that was my point since you also said "Vast majority of most succesful adult games in Japan has like 60h of text before anything sexual happens." Which is definitely false on several levels. Only a small portion of VNs, mainly from top studios, even reach those lengths in the first place.

VNs in Japan, despite making up about 70% of released games, are actually rather niche. It's really hard to get a foothold in that market. Not many people buy the games so the prices tend to be on the high side making it harder for those in that already limited market to buy more than a game or two a month most of the time. Yet with the ease of making VNs with a small budget and tiny teams the market is way over-saturated. Put all this together and most have to rely on high sexual content to give more bang for the buck in hopes of winning enough attention to stay afloat.

Because of this the market is actually flooded with Nukige, they are far more common than your thought provoking 60+ hour epics with tons of endings and minimal sex scenes. It's usually only the biggest, most established companies that can reliably make back their money off those. Many of the smaller studios that tried their hand at big games have gone down hard. This led to the relatively short (10-30 hour) sex heavy games becoming the mainstay for most small studios who want to stay in the business. And since surviving through a release and making enough off it to fund the next project is the definition of success in this industry, it's safe to say the majority of successful adult games in Japan are actually from the nukige end of the spectrum.
True. But success depends on your definition as the most famous, biggest and bestselling games ain't nukiges. My argument is clearly not fair as pure porn can't enter mainstream even in Japan but it's still a thing. Ofc you're right that nukiges are also selling well but I'm not arguing about it. I'm just saying that there is a huge market for adult games which are not porn and such games shouldn't be underestimated. That's all. To be honest even sex focused games can reach much more people with non-erotic complex gameplay (Rance, Kamidori etc.). I'm not trying to pick a fight with you (I agree with most what you said), but I just can't agree with OP as it's clear that porn is not always a thing in adult games and sometimes it's delivered in a much slower or complex way. In my personal opinion simplifying adult games like that is just as harmful for our market as it is untrue.