In a harem game, would you let a guy die to add two more girl to your harem?

[PochitaTheChainsaw]

if hes a bro i aint gon drop him for no ho. if hes a foe then i'll take the double hoe

 

[anne O'nymous]

You play the game, you reach the point when he lives or die based on your choices, you check the WT or the thread in F95, you find what choices lead you into that path, you find what things you can change if you wanted it.

I find that a character I absolutely don't care about died, why would I feel concerned by this ?
Then I'll discover that he died because I absolutely not cared about him, and it will not change a thing ; precisely because I absolutely don't care about him.

Take another scenario:
There's two barista, one female and one male. Reading the thread of the game, you learn that if you decided to talk with the male on day X, he wouldn't have died at the end of the day. Do you really feel concerned by this ? Do you really think that you'll come back and decide to talk with him ? I'm almost sure that you wouldn't care.

You didn't cared about the character, and will not care about what happened to him. And it's exactly the same in the scenario you present.
There's a global rule in stories, whatever if it's a game, a book or a movie. It's only if the player/reader/spectator feel some connection with a character (whatever if he care about him or despite him) that he will feel concerned by what can happen to him. Not only the scenario you present is at the opposite of that, but in addition it reward us for not feeling concerned.

Now, you can write the story in such way that the player feel concerned by this character. But even there, there's the choice is just an illusion and you'll be the one who made it (see below).

It wasn't your decision, but it was the result of your actions, and once you check the WT/thread, it's your decision to keep him dead or alive.

It's your decision, not mine. At no time I'll be the one making a decision, and at no time I'll feel guilty if he die, nor will I want to save him.

There's only three possibilities in your scenario:

1. I don't care about this character.
   There's no interest in befriending a character I don't care about, therefore there's a choice, but no decision to make.
   And obviously, I'll not care, nor feel concerned, but the outcome. He died ? Well, at least now I have the girls, good thing that I didn't cared about him.
   
2. I dislike this character.
   There's no interest in befriending a character I dislike, therefore there's a choice, but no decision to make.
   The outcome of this choice is the death of this character ? Hooray. In top of that I have the girls ? Champagne !
   
3. You wrote the character in such way that I care about him.
   There's no interest in ignoring a character I like, therefore there's a choice, but no decision to make.
   Then I'll learn that this saved him, and I'll be happy. Then I'll learn that, since he's alive, I missed two girls, and I'll hate you.

It's only once you know what happen, and only if you care about this character, that it become a decision. Simply because it's only in this particular case that both options present an interest.

If I don't care about the character, knowing that he'll die will not change make me pick the other option, especially since it mean that I'll not have the girls. Same if I dislike the character.

But if I like the character, and know the outcome of this choice, then there's a decision, but it's not one you think.
The decision isn't between "let him die in order to have the girls", and "forget about the girls in order to save him".
No, it's a harem game, and the goal of a harem game is to have all the girls. For the player, the "good ending" is the one where all the girls are on the photography. Therefore, the decision is between "play the game", and "don't play the game".
So, I'll decide to let this character die. But it will not be my choice, it will be the choice you forced me to make. I'll not feel guilty because the character died, I'll think you are a jerk, because you had tons of other way to give me the girls without killing him.

 

[Adabelitoo]

I find that a character I absolutely don't care about died, why would I feel concerned by this ?

If you don't care about him, then that's a perfectly valid answer. I don't know why you are so sure that you won't care or even dislike a hypotetical character that you don't event know yet (*) but you seen really convinced (you wrote the words "don't care", "not care" and "dislike" a lot), so good for you.

It's your decision, not mine. At no time I'll be the one making a decision, and at no time I'll feel guilty if he die, nor will I want to save him.

You took choices that lead into that. You know you can change it. I didn't talk about feeling guilty. The moral dilemma can make you feel guilty maybe but that's up to each player, in the same way that it's up to each player to pick a previous save and change the outcome if they wish that. So yes, it's your decision, not mine.

No, it's a harem game, and the goal of a harem game is to have all the girls. For the player, the "good ending" is the one where all the girls are on the photography. Therefore, the decision is between "play the game", and "don't play the game".

(*) Until I read this. To be honest I feel kinda dissapointed because I thought you were better than this, but this is 100% the idea I had of you so of course this is totally my own B.

No, "harem game" doesn't mean that every woman with a hole in her body must end on top of the MC's dick. "Good ending" doesn't mean that every human being with two X chromosomes must be in the picture surrounding the MC. That would be "Harem ending", which you can get regardless of that choice but with more or less girls.

Still, for everyonw who thinks that way, then again, it's a totally valid option represented by option "He'll die no matter what" I want that people to vote for that if that how they feel.

 

[desmosome]

I have never seen a "good guy MC" harem game that I could take seriously, so just kill the guy to add more chicks I guess.

 

[Xanado]

Not enoungh context to make a deciscion like that. I mean is he a evil man that holds the 2 girls in captive and you are the hero? Is he a innocent person? Do you like/have feelings for the girls? Do you actually want them in your harem?

It depends.

I mean if it's a villain game and you are the next demonlord or whatever I see it matter less.

 

[Adabelitoo]

Not enoungh context to make a deciscion like that. I mean is he a evil man that holds the 2 girls in captive and you are the hero? Is he a innocent person? Do you like/have feelings for the girls? Do you actually want them in your harem?

It depends.

I mean if its a villain game and you are the next demonlord or whatever I see it matter less.

He is a super cool dude. He means no harm to anyone. You don't know that those girls exist before you meet the guy so you don't have time know them/like them/ have feelings for them. The MC doesn't know that those girls will be assigned to him if the other guy dies.

But if all of that isn't enough info for you, that's totally intended. I said "Because reasons" precisely because I don't want to give that much info. Pick the "It depends" option you think it fits best.

 

[LewdSinner]

Die. Always die.

 

[Jaike]

It will mostly depend on the guy's personality. I know you have said that he is a cool guy, but a lot of supposed cool guys in harem games end up as the idiot friend stereotype. Now some of those are tolerable, a lot of them aren't.

But kudos for trying to link some consequences to harem expansion.

Bros before hoes.

PS: if I have enough karma points, will that guy join my harem?

Yes, if the guy is cute and likeable enough, that or swinging/sharing would be a nice option.

I said the word "reasons" because I don't want to get into details, I just want people to think about the moral dilemma.

I think it is difficult to make it into a moral dilemma if the guy is not someone the MC knows very well and the MC is going to be a good guy anyway. The harem genre is usually about dragging in LIs at zero cost, so most players will do just that anyway. Unless his two ladies are sort of unattractive.

You need to rephrase it. "Will you chose to be NTRed by this nice guy, or will you take all the girls for yourself, especially if they are virgin?" No NTR.

They are in a game and they are not getting dicked by the mc. Therefore, ntr

 

[Banality]

cool Meme.
Highlights the Paranoia of some guys really good.
But some thoughts on the topic (will be my last)
What is the deal of adding a "moral dilemma" to a harem-game? I mean... if the MC is "the good guy - no matter what" the whole thing is really pointless. It would be a moral dilemma to kill this guy or let him die to get the girls.... and being fully aware of it. But picking up the leftovers of a freshly deceased you barely know and his death is NOT YOUR FAULT.... that was pointed out often enough.... is an act of mercy.
After sorting my thoughts on this topic i conclude: this whole setup is bullshit. But i can figure out how to come to an idea like this.
Harem-Players in general want it all without consequences and imagine theirselfs as "Heros of Love"... even when they bang their family. Very fragile personalities. But i guess moral dilemma is not the thing the typical Haremplayer wants. So my advice: scratch it or go full drama with consequences. That's my two cent

 

[Niv-Mizzet the Firemind]

Guys, in case you didn't get it, what redknight00 said was just a joke. I get you guys don't like NTR, but please stop talking about NTR on thread where no one talked about NTR in the first place.

That last line in my post was worded really poorly and I apparently came off as a member of the brigade, which was not my intention. I'm gonna stop derailing the thread now.

 

[RedPillBlues]

I mean I don't ever see me caring more about a character more then actual content with the girls hes gatekeeping. Seems like a easy choice

 

[Pitrik]

He can live but he will have to stay away from our girls

 

[moskyx]

No, "harem game" doesn't mean that every woman with a hole in her body must end on top of the MC's dick. "Good ending" doesn't mean that every human being with two X chromosomes must be in the picture surrounding the MC. That would be "Harem ending", which you can get regardless of that choice but with more or less girls.

Well, with all due respect, after reading this answer I think you should reconsider your concept of what an 'harem game' is - maybe just read some pages of WVM' thread, an harem game where you can't get all the girls 'because reasons' and see what people demand. [EDIT- I mean, of course you can have an harem game where not all the women are potential harem members and where all those potential harem members can't be part of the harem at the same time in the same playthrough, but people will cry their shit out for everyone to be included in one single route.] By default, in an harem game people want an harem ending because what's the point of not having the most complete harem possible? Getting the full harem is the main (and only) goal of harem games. Even if it's not an harem game but it has an harem ending, getting that ending will be the main and only goal for most people, and when players have a clear goal in a game all those 'moral dilemmas' just jump out of the window because they just want to beat the game. You're presenting us a side male character who's blocking us to get 2 more pussies in an harem game, why letting him die should be more of a moral dilemma than banging your family members is in incest games? You just do it because that's the game's nature, it doesn't really matter what your personal views in real life are or how unfair you think it would be to that character.

Maybe if the girls are not my type I would consider reject them, but the girls will always be the main reason behind all my choices, not that side male character. By nature I personally wouldn't mind to befriend a cool male character, so in my initial and not-informed playthrough I'd probably save him... but then I'll realize I can't bang his girls, so if I like them next time he's going to die for sure and I wouldn't be even a little sad. And I don't think the vast majority of players would care either. As Anne said, if I really like that guy but you're forcing me to let him die in order to get his girls, I might even hate the creator for that design because yes, it's causing me some disonance between my in-game character and my real life personality, but I wouldn't have any moral dilemma in game. Fuck him.

Now, take also into account that if you are not willing to give us the whole picture, we can't give you the same answer we would give you if we knew the whole picture.

 

[Omae wa shinda]

Just like every harem manga/anime/hentai

 

[anne O'nymous]

I don't know why you are so sure that you won't care or even dislike a hypotetical character that you don't event know yet (*) but you seen really convinced (you wrote the words "don't care", "not care" and "dislike" a lot), so good for you.

I said it, it's because it's a harem game and he's a guy. You'll need to make him really likable, and do this way before the players have the possibility to ignore him, for them to care.
Take a look at WVM thread by example ; if you have the courage. You'll find players that felt betrayed by Damien, because he was inserted into the story as MC's future BFF ; yet most of them flirted with his girl right from the start. But you'll not find many who cared about Kenji (who was neutral), or care about the other male characters. And obviously, Ryker being a dick, everyone is happy about his situation.
Even if he's the best friend, a guy is an enemy in a harem game. With the release of the final edition of Dreams of Desire, I wonder how many players choose to share his mother with him.

(*) Until I read this. To be honest I feel kinda dissapointed because I thought you were better than this, but this is 100% the idea I had of you so of course this is totally my own B.

To my defense, it was really late, and I failed many time to find the right way to present my thoughts.

No, "harem game" doesn't mean that every woman with a hole in her body must end on top of the MC's dick. "Good ending" doesn't mean that every human being with two X chromosomes must be in the picture surrounding the MC. That would be "Harem ending", which you can get regardless of that choice but with more or less girls.

Please, ask for this to be added in the tag definition thread. It would do so much good to put some rationality in many brains.

Still, for everyonw who thinks that way, then again, it's a totally valid option represented by option "He'll die no matter what" I want that people to vote for that if that how they feel.

The main problem I have is still the lack of effective choice. Or perhaps a better phrasing would be that the choice do not happen in the game.
As I said, only one third of the players (not in terms of number, but in term of attitude regarding the character) will have to make this choice. Only those who liked this character, and therefore befriended him, will come to the thread and see that they could have had the girls, to the cost of his life.
It's at this moment that they'll make the choice: Will I, or not, go back to the game, in order to have the girls.
Due to brain compartmentalization, when they'll decide to go back, it will be with the idea that they'll let a purely virtual character die. It's not really a moral dilemma. And the time they reach the right choice, they will already be totally decided ; it would be stupid to have replayed the game just to make the decision they made the first time. Here again, it's not really a moral dilemma.

A morality choice, in regard of player's morality, happen only when the consequences are direct:

Your friend will left the town forever, so many adventures that you could have had together.
Learning this, you rush to his home, and find him, on the other side of the street, ready to leave.
menu:
 "Yell that he's like a brother, that you'll help them, him and his family. They don't have to leave."
    Hearing you say all this, hope came back in his life. 
    Without warning he ran across the street to reunite with you. Together you'll fight the world !
    He was at less than two meters from you when the car hit him...
    His mother and three sisters cried for months, but fortunately you were here for them. 
    You, who were near to be a stranger in their life, are now welcome in their bed anytime you want.
 "Do nothing, let him go."
    You look at him, silently. Here end a so big part of your life.
    While you look at his mother and three sister joining him, you can't prevent your pervert mind to wander.
    God, the things you would do to have the possibility to fuck them. But they are gone now.
    Perhaps have you missed an opportunity here.

Confronted to the death of his friend, he'll rollback and choose to do nothing, and see that he then loose the girls. At the opposite, the "missed opportunity" will make him wonder what happen if he make the other choice. In both case he will rollback, to see what is outcome of the other choice.
Then, he will be confronted to a direct moral dilemma. Should he go with the, "oh fuck ! He died", outcome, or should he choose the, "shit, I don't get the girls", one ?

But, at least as I get it, your scenario put the decision far before its consequences. What mean that, like I said, the decision will come when the player will learn about the second outcome, probably outside of the game.

 

[lemonfreak]

No, I'd let all 4 girls die to add 6 dudes.

#GLM

 

[woody554]

I'll remove any and all removable male characters the first chance I get. there's a tiny tiny chance it wouldn't happen if the guy is sympathetic enough, but it has only ever happened one time so far. the most annoying are the forced wingmen, doesn't even have to have any ntr aspect to it.

 

[Adabelitoo]

What is the deal of adding a "moral dilemma" to a harem-game?

The deal is none. The moral dilemma isn't the main plot of the story, that's just one part of the story that ends in a branch.

I might even hate the creator for that design because yes, it's causing me some disonance between my in-game character and my real life personality, but I wouldn't have any moral dilemma in game. Fuck him.

Imagine that I give you a game with the hottest girl you ever saw and I say "If you want to fuck her then it's up to you". You probably thought "Fuck yes". Now I say "Ok, go rape her". There is a pretty big chance you said "What? No way" and I'll be like "What? I said it was up to you, you can totally outforce her".

That is a moral dilemma. That disonance is a moral dilemma caused by the game. If you hate me because I made you took a decision that you aren't 100% satisfied with, then it's okay with me. People want games with meaningfull decisions but people also wants game where you can get all the content in one playthough. Try to please everyone and you'll please no one.

With the release of the final edition of Dreams of Desire, I wonder how many players choose to share his mother with him.

Dude, my profile picture has been Papa Marcus since created the account. That gives you an idea of who you are talking to.

To my defense, it was really late, and I failed many time to find the right way to present my thoughts.

Don't worry, you're still A dude among dudes here in F95. My opinion of you is still pretty damn high.

Please, ask for this to be added in the tag definition thread. It would do so much good to put some rationality in many brains.

redknight00 Please? I mean, it's worth a shot.

As I said, only one third of the players (not in terms of number, but in term of attitude regarding the character) will have to make this choice.

But here you're blaming the dev because of each player personal preferences. Imagine the classic game when you can be a sweetheart or an asshole to get the girls. If someone isn't into asshole MCs then they only have the path of the wholesome MC, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a decision to make. They are the one choosing to play one and ignore the other route. That's a player making a choice.

Here the difference is that this choice about this guy happens mid game and the outcome may not be the want you wished. If someone saved that guy and then he finds out that he prefers having the girls, that player can pick an old save file and change the outcome. That's a player making a choice.

 

[moskyx]

Imagine that I give you a game with the hottest girl you ever saw and I say "If you want to fuck her then it's up to you". You probably thought "Fuck yes". Now I say "Ok, go rape her". There is a pretty big chance you said "What? No way" and I'll be like "What? I said it was up to you, you can totally outforce her".

That is a moral dilemma. That disonance is a moral dilemma caused by the game. If you hate me because I made you took a decision that you aren't 100% satisfied with, then it's okay with me. People want games with meaningfull decisions but people also wants game where you can get all the content in one playthough. Try to please everyone and you'll please no one.

Well, if that's your take on what a moral dilemma is then rest assured in my case there wouldn't be any moral dilemma with your game. He'll die and won't be missed -and again I guess that would be the vast majority of players' opinion, so your intended 'stressful choice' won't be that effective.

In this new example, there won't be any moral dilemma either, I wouldn't rape her, but as Anne has tried to point out it wouldn't be an actual 'choice' but a fake one, since the alternative is so against my beliefs that I won't even consider it. For it to be a dilemma the choice needs to be a bit more balanced. So force me to actually kill him in a bloody gore way and... I might not try that path (but for others it will still be a no-brainer). And even better, put a potential love interest in the place of the cool guy and you'll have your dilemma. I know of certain Bakery Doctor who made a career thanks to this

 

[Adabelitoo]

Well, if that's your take on what a moral dilemma is then rest assured in my case there wouldn't be any moral dilemma with your game. He'll die and won't be missed -and again I guess that would be the vast majority of players' opinion, so your intended 'stressful choice' won't be that effective.

In this new example, there won't be any moral dilemma either, I wouldn't rape her, but as Anne has tried to point out it wouldn't be an actual 'choice' but a fake one, since the alternative is so against my beliefs that I won't even consider it. For it to be a dilemma the choice needs to be a bit more balanced. So force me to actually kill him in a bloody gore way and... I might not try that path (but for others it will still be a no-brainer). And even better, put a potential love interest in the place of the cool guy and you'll have your dilemma. I know of certain Bakery Doctor who made a career thanks to this

That's what I expected, but hey, the results so far say that 18 would kill him without a second thought while 33 said that it depends. It's okay if this isn't "stressful" for most people. I don't pretend to take anyone's sleep away with a porn game.

Letting someone die only to get two more pussies when the player knows that he can save him, that is a moral dilemma. It may not be strong enough for you to recognize it as such, but just because I don't find DOTA fun it doesn't mean that DOTA isn't a game. You literally said it yourself "put a potential love interest in the place of the cool guy and you'll have your dilemma" so the exact same situation but with a woman instead of a man sudenly becomes a moral dilemma. That always was a moral dilemma, it's just that now you're applying your double moral (also known as double standard), but that isn't the topic here.

Again, there is a choice here. Saying that it's a fake choice is like saying that playing Genocide Route in Undertale is a fake choice simply because you don't want to kill others.