Is independent adult game making a European phenomena?

[gamersglory]

Myself and Chatterbox are US based Devlopers and Yes the US Doller does not go far here.

 

[anne O'nymous]

So if we go back to topic, with a $1000 / month Patreon income, an American will make minimum wage, which is probably barely enough for subsistance. A Pole will make a respectable income. A Frenchman will basically be in deep shit.

You forgot something in your thinking process.
The minimum wage isn't reliable enough, since it don't effectively guaranty that you can live with that amount of money. And this even in Europe, Poles regularly complain that the minimum wage isn't high enough. A better indicator is the poverty threshold, therefore how much money your government think you need to earn to not be seen as poor.
It is of US$ 12.490/year for one person

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. While in France, and in 2018 (

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), it was of 1.026€/month, so 12.312€ or US$ 13.770 by year.
And there you can see why the minimum wage isn't a good comparison point. In the US it put you less than US$ 1.000 above the poverty limit, while in France you end with a few more than $10.000 above this limit.

But even using the poverty threshold isn't an accurate enough comparison point. With US$ 1.040 in the USA it's 10% above the one for France (US$ 1.147). Therefore, raise a little your bar, from $1.000 to $1.100, and neither an American nor a French will really seem in deep shit with their earning.
But like I said previously, what make the real difference is all the extra living costs. In the USA you'll have to pay them all, while in France, and more generally in Europe, our ass is covered by the government.
By example, the last hospital bill I had to pay was for one day at the ER for my daughter, where she goes with the French equivalent of the 911. They made a lot of exams, give her some medication, and it cost me less than US$ 300. I can't say how it would have cost in the USA, since I don't have the full list of what they did, but according to what I can see on Internet, a bill between 20 and 50 times more seem to be a valid estimation, since with US$ 1.000/month you can't afford a health insurance.

And, at least for me, the main difference, and the main reason with more Europeans give a try to the independent game making process, than Americans do, is here. While earning the right amount to be at the limit of poverty in the USA or in Europe, you'll have less to worry in Europe, than in the USA.

It also apply for people who works on their game during their free time. Pass one night working on your game, by example because you need it to reach the deadline you fixed for the next update. It will have no consequences in Europe ; you'll be a zombie at works all day, but you can't be fired for that. In the USA, if your boss is a dick, or had a really bad day, you can end being unemployed.
This also make a difference and lead more Europeans to give it a try, than Americans do. Once you've a job, in Europe you can't be fired without a reason that would looks good enough to the eyes of Justice ; "good enough" being a relative notion that change depending of the country you live in. Can't say for other European countries, but in France we even have a Justice court dedicated to the conflicts between employers and employees. This while in the USA, and obviously globally speaking, "I wanted to" is a reason valid enough.

 

[khumak]

Similar situation here, my rent isn't gonna drop with my income that's for sure, perhaps finding some way to show your abilities before you make the jump, lots of devs start as part timers and only make the jump after a significant amount of time, it's lots of work juggling a job and a what would amount to a pretty time hungry side hustle but you never know ..., Alternatively there is the whole subcontracting thing where you work for a dev for a while as something like a writer/co-writer, something non English Devs often need, i do the script checks for recreation and his game Bad Memories (shameless plug), not that i'm paid and neither would i want to be to be honest, it's a favour for a friend, but what it has done is wonders for my confidence in my own writing as well as giving me an inside view of the process, which is far more important than you'd think.

Yep I'm following a similar path. Basically planning on testing my abilities and developing my skills by modding first. Then I may take a stab at making my own game in my spare time after work/on weekends and see if people like it. In my case I REALLY need a hardware upgrade first as well. Rendering on a GTX 1050Ti is rather painful. If whatever I make turns out more popular than expected then I might consider doing it full time. Otherwise it's just a fun and time cosuming hobby.

The writing part I think I'm already ok with doing myself and so far I haven't run into any major roadblocks learning how to do what I want in RenPy. I haven't tried coding for any other engine yet. Unity seems popular with some devs but I suspect the coding is harder and unless I'm doing a 3D game instead of a 2D game I'm not sure it really gives me much extra.

The bigger stumbling block for me is rendering and I'm getting better at that. There's still plenty of room for improvement but I'm mostly happy with my still shots now. I know enough about my weaknesses there that I think I could minimize them. Animations are another story. If I were to start making my own game tomorrow I think I would just leave animations out.

I do still want to find a good place to get royalty free music and sound effects though. IMO sound is important in a game. If people would rather just mute it and play their own music that's fine but it should be there. To me the renders show you what's happening but they don't set the mood. That's what the music and sound does. When it's left out it's like watching a movie with the sound off and subtitles on. It's just a subpar experience.

 

[215303j]

And, at least for me, the main difference, and the main reason with more Europeans give a try to the independent game making process, than Americans do, is here. While earning the right amount to be at the limit of poverty in the USA or in Europe, you'll have less to worry in Europe, than in the USA.

It also apply for people who works on their game during their free time. Pass one night working on your game, by example because you need it to reach the deadline you fixed for the next update. It will have no consequences in Europe ; you'll be a zombie at works all day, but you can't be fired for that. In the USA, if your boss is a dick, or had a really bad day, you can end being unemployed.

Yeah, those are really good points.
Especially if you work for the government or municipality, but generally it's true.
Maybe for western Europe it's a bit more true than eastern EU countries.

 

[khumak]

With regards to income levels in various countries, you can have a look here:

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There we see that the USA is right in the middle of the developed countries listed:

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But if the minimum wage is compared to the average wage, the USA is right at the bottom:

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So, if we compare the USA to Poland and France:
USA: minimum wage $7.25 / h = $1160 / month (40h workweek), average wage: $4296
Poland: minimum wage $2.91 / h = $466 / month (40h workweek), average wage: $1164
France: minimum wage $12.52 / h = $2003 / month (40h workweek), average wage: $3928
Of course the above is without taxes, pensions, social security etc.

So if we go back to topic, with a $1000 / month Patreon income, an American will make minimum wage, which is probably barely enough for subsistance. A Pole will make a respectable income. A Frenchman will basically be in deep shit.

I do know that there are several French devs participating here. But it will be hard to do it as the main / only job.

Where I live if you're making minimum wage a long commute to a cheaper county is your only option unless you have a bunch of roommates or someone else is subsidizing your housing. There is no way that $1000 a month even comes close to covering rent. The same is true for many of the larger cities in the US. As a point of comparison rent for a 500 square foot 1 bedroom studio apartment in my area will run you over $2000 per month and a comparable condo would run you over $700k. A house is double that, and this is the low end of the market. That's the cheapest you can find. Somewhere like SF or NY would make the city I live in look like a bargain.

Not everyone lives in a high cost of living area but I would say the median income is a more reasonable comparison than the minimum wage for most people. Last I heard that was more along the lines of $50k per year in the US, which is still not enough to live on in the more expensive cities but it works in most places. So for most people in the US I think they would need a guaranteed income of more like $4000-5000 from Patreon for it to be viable as a full time job. If you look at the most successful dev patreon pages there are some making more than that, but most are making less.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Especially if you work for the government or municipality, but generally it's true.
Maybe for western Europe it's a bit more true than eastern EU countries.

Globally, it can be divided in three. It's in West and North Europe that your ass will be covered the most. Then come the rest of the European Union, where the government do less (generaly because it can't do more), but being inside the EU you can travel as you want ; by example, it's not rare to have East Europeans going in France, just for a visit to the hospital, or for the harvest season (one month of works that can sometime make you earn enough to live few months once back in your country). Then come the rest of Europe.
But in the same times, there something in the USA that mostly don't exist outside, the possibility to declare yourself in bankruptcy. If you hit it in Europe, the government will help you, but you'll still have to cover all your debts, or at least a big part of them. Therefore, will there's less risk in Europe, you'll still need to be more careful and not tempt fate too much.

 

[polywog]

Myself and Chatterbox are US based Devlopers and Yes the US Doller does not go far here.

I just got my property tax bills. Over $10,000 per year that I have to pay for government programs that I don't use.

 

[ZanithOne]

I just got my property tax bills. Over $10,000 per year that I have to pay for government programs that I don't use.

Be glad that you don't need those programs, friendo. Maybe read up on people who do use them, or even talk to them, try to empathize. Here in Russland we have somewhat lower taxes (though it's a complex issue, our taxes aren't straightforward, there's a universal VAT, so by some accounts we pay about 43% to 45% tax after everything's accounted for), but add some good old corruption to that, and govt policy that focuses on military and super wasteful national projects, and you get social services that are on the brink of collapse. I was always pro-tax, but one trip to ICU made me certain that I'd be happy to pay even more to get better conditions for those who need help. The main issue with taxes is how they are spent.

 

[Fliptoynk]

Well... It also hurts to see your hard earned taxes are spent on the "plantation" of voters with hr5, pampering sj midgets rather on projects that could improve the economy

 

[khumak]

I just got my property tax bills. Over $10,000 per year that I have to pay for government programs that I don't use.
View attachment 449558

I'm sure there are particular services you don't use but if you think you don't use any you're deluding yourself. Do you pay for your own private police force to protect yourself from crime? Do you pay for your own private fire department in case your house catches on fire? Do you privately fund your own system of roads to get you from point A to point B (or have your own private helicopter that you use to go everywhere? If you do have your own private helicopter, do you have your own privately funded air traffic control system to ensure that your neighbor doens't crash HIS private helicopter into yours en route to where ever you're going?

Do you have your own privately funded military to protect you from foreign invaders from forcibly removing you from your land and just confiscating everything you own? Do you privately fund basic research into the sorts of stuff that the government does which leads to things like advances in medicine?

I've never used any low income programs either but that doesn't mean I'm not using infrastructure and other things that the government provides to everyone. There are also plenty of things the government spends billions of dollars a year on that I wish they'd spend nothing on.

 

[polywog]

Do you pay for your own private police force to protect yourself from crime?

I live in a rural area where there is zero crime, but to answer your question, yes. I have a bigger arsenal than the local Sheriff.
They call me if there's trouble.

Do you pay for your own private fire department in case your house catches on fire?

My house isn't flammable, but let's pretend it is. It would take the fire department close to an hour to arrive.
We joke about how they are always first to arrive when I have a cookout. (I'm former VFD paramedic)

Do you privately fund your own system of roads to get you from point A to point B

Yes. That's how it works in the US. Property owners are assessed (over and above property taxes) for local roads and bridges.
Roads and highways don't come out of property taxes, ever. Gasoline is taxed is taxed, and the monies collected from that more than pays for roads, repairs, etc. Far more than is necessary.

or have your own private helicopter that you use to go everywhere?

I have to pay landing fees, and property tax on my hangar at the airport, separate from other property tax.
Air Traffic Control is Federal so that is paid from Income Tax, and has nothing to do with property tax.

Do you have your own privately funded military

Once again, Federal. and since you haven't read the US constitution. The US military cannot act on US soil.
Contrary to popular belief, the police are not obligated to protect you and especially not your property. You are responsible for your own protection.

Do you privately fund basic research into the sorts of stuff that the government does which leads to things like advances in medicine?

Seriously? The US isn't one big country, It's 50+ separate States* that each have their own constitution.
We pay local taxes, state taxes, Federal taxes, income taxes, capital gains tax, luxury tax, communication tax, corporate taxes, fuel tax, sales tax... the list goes on and on. We even pay taxes on taxes.
On top of that we pay taxes in the form of licenses. Hunting licenses, fishing licenses, driving licenses... the largest source of revenue collection in some of these states is traffic tickets. and then there's taxes for healthcare, and retirement, even though you pay for private insurance, and have your own retirement savings. Many fields of research get funding from a variety of sources, but property tax aint one of them.
Yes, I fund research, and game development.

 

[Sphere42]

With the presence of Engrish in most games

Others have already handled the rest but why do you think Muricans don't produce Engrish? I've seen enough posts praising the USA or even outright confirming nationality/location yet still messing up basic grammar like "their, they're, there" and not using "sex (noun)", "cunt", "kitty" and "fuckhole" in the same paragraph doesn't have all that much to do with language education beyond learning those words in the first place.

I do admit the "ex-Soviet" productions tend to be rather obvious though because their language causes very specific patterns of mistakes such as not using any articles.

 

[anne O'nymous]

Roads and highways don't come out of property taxes, ever. Gasoline is taxed is taxed, and the monies collected from that more than pays for roads, repairs, etc. Far more than is necessary.

Far more than is necessary, really ? With

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, and a cost between

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, the price of the US roadway is somewhere between US$ 8 360 billion and US$ 45 980 billion. And with a

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, it's an annual budget between US$ 33 billion and US$ 183 billion, without counting the cost to maintain the actual miles.

We pay local taxes, state taxes, Federal taxes,

It's not because few countries are divided in states, that the others don't have local and regional taxes, in addition of the national ones. Therefore, the same division than you...

income taxes, capital gains tax, luxury tax, communication tax, corporate taxes, fuel tax, sales tax... the list goes on and on. We even pay taxes on taxes.
On top of that we pay taxes in the form of licenses. Hunting licenses, fishing licenses, driving licenses... the largest source of revenue collection in some of these states is traffic tickets.
and then there's taxes for healthcare, and retirement, even though you pay for private insurance, and have your own retirement savings.

... and so you pay exactly the same kind of taxes than the rest of the world do.
Because yes, the rest of the world pay taxes for healthcare and, for those who can afford it, private insurance ; the insurance covering part of the, already low, remaining costs. Same for retirement, once again for those who can afford it.


But, well, instead of complaining like a selfish dumb ass, you should have tried to understood what khumak said. Especially his last sentence...

 

[ZanithOne]

Others have already handled the rest but why do you think Muricans don't produce Engrish? I've seen enough posts praising the USA or even outright confirming nationality/location yet still messing up basic grammar like "their, they're, there" and not using "sex (noun)", "cunt", "kitty" and "fuckhole" in the same paragraph doesn't have all that much to do with language education beyond learning those words in the first place.

I do admit the "ex-Soviet" productions tend to be rather obvious though because their language causes very specific patterns of mistakes such as not using any articles.

As a Russian, can confirm the article thing. They are just so damn confusing when you're not using them in everyday speech. Have to think if the thing you're writing about is a vague concept or a concrete thing that has to be the thing. And if it was a thing before, then it should become the thing after you've written about it. And sometimes there shouldn't be any article at all. Thank god google docs now provide a solid spellcheck that catches most of this.

 

[polywog]

But, well, instead of complaining like a selfish dumb ass, you should have tried to understood what khumak said. Especially his last sentence...

You should have read my post. It was about property tax being too high. I didn't complain about other taxes.

Taxation without representation.
Gasoline tax is fair. People who use electric vehicles, Natural Gas / RNG, biodiesel, hydrogen.. don't pay to use the roads, but for the most part, those who use the roads pay for them via the gas tax. People who don't use the roads, aren't unduly burdened.

Alcohol should be taxed to pay for it's damaging effects on society. Drugs likewise.

Hunting and fishing on your own property should not require an additional tax. You're already paying for water, timber, mineral, resources, as part of property tax, even if you don't use them. In other words, you can cut down trees, but you need a license to catch fish.

Crooked politicians are making laws, sneaking things into bills where they don't belong. Things that don't belong on property taxes are being mandated. Water Sewer and Garbage collection doesn't belong on property tax. The water company meters the water used, and you pay per gallon that you use. These are for profit businesses. You pay for what you use. If you put water sewer and garbage collection on property tax it encourages waste. Fuck it, I can waste water, because I don't have to pay extra for it. Some might even say this benefits rich people, if the tax is averaged. People who use less water, should not be charged for the average use, they should be charged for actual use.

Young people complain about property prices being too high... it doesn't end with the purchase, property tax is ongoing.
Arguments that I make, aren't always personal. Sometimes I defend the underdog. I would like to see everyone living the American dream, owning property, and stuff like this poses a barrier for them.

 

[khumak]

You should have read my post. It was about property tax being too high. I didn't complain about other taxes.

Taxation without representation.
Gasoline tax is fair. People who use electric vehicles, Natural Gas / RNG, biodiesel, hydrogen.. don't pay to use the roads, but for the most part, those who use the roads pay for them via the gas tax. People who don't use the roads, aren't unduly burdened.

Alcohol should be taxed to pay for it's damaging effects on society. Drugs likewise.

Hunting and fishing on your own property should not require an additional tax. You're already paying for water, timber, mineral, resources, as part of property tax, even if you don't use them. In other words, you can cut down trees, but you need a license to catch fish.

Crooked politicians are making laws, sneaking things into bills where they don't belong. Things that don't belong on property taxes are being mandated. Water Sewer and Garbage collection doesn't belong on property tax. The water company meters the water used, and you pay per gallon that you use. These are for profit businesses. You pay for what you use. If you put water sewer and garbage collection on property tax it encourages waste. Fuck it, I can waste water, because I don't have to pay extra for it. Some might even say this benefits rich people, if the tax is averaged. People who use less water, should not be charged for the average use, they should be charged for actual use.

Young people complain about property prices being too high... it doesn't end with the purchase, property tax is ongoing.
Arguments that I make, aren't always personal. Sometimes I defend the underdog. I would like to see everyone living the American dream, owning property, and stuff like this poses a barrier for them.

The idea of only paying taxes that apply to things you personally use sounds appealing at first glance but if we tried to actually implement it, it would fail miserably. Property taxes are actually a good example for this since a big chunk of property taxes goes to pay for schools. So if I don't have kids then I can cut my property taxes by whatever percentage goes to schools right? I haven't been to a public library in decades either, should we just close all of those? Or maybe I don't think I need cops or firemen or judges so any portion of my taxes that goes to the police, the fire department, or the court system I don't have to pay. If a pacificist opposes the military then they can cut their income tax by whatever percentage goes to the defense budget right? If I don't like old people then I don't have to pay Social Security or Medicare taxes anymore right?

Now someone has to keep track of all of those things I'm not paying so when I DO end up having a kid, tough luck. My kid stays home and I have to home school them. When I get robbed and call the police they just ignore me. When my house catches on fire the fire department doesn't show up. When I get old and didn't save enough for retirement, tough luck, no social security for me I can beg for scraps on the street. And when I get sick doing that, no Medicare for me so when I go to the ER they can just let me die in the waiting room. And of course even the people who DO pay these taxes have to wait for the 911 operator to call some beaurocrat first to see if you paid your "police tax" before dispatching the police, same with the fire department. So anything the government does you have to wait longer for even if you DID pay for it.

I don't like taxes any more than anyone else does but unless I'm going to go buy my own private island and renounce my citizenship they're just a fact of life. And even then I'm probably paying property taxes to whatever country's territory that island is closest to. You could probably get away with no taxes if you live in the middle of nowhere in Alaska. Some cabin 100 miles away from the nearest road for instance where you just built a cabin on land you don't own without telling anyone and just live off the land. Most likely even if it was private property the owner wouldn't care unless you built it on land he actually uses.

I want to pay taxes for schools even though I don't have kids because I know that without them the entire country would be a bunch of illiterate morons. So while it doesn't directly help me now, it did help me when I was a kid and it helps the country as a whole. I know that Social Security is a bad deal for me personally. I would be better off if I didn't have to pay that tax and just invested it instead, but most people wouldn't and I'd rather not see a bunch of old people starving to death on the street when they run out of money so I don't mind paying social security taxes even though it's of no benefit to me personally (it's a negative return for someone in my tax bracket).

Now technically you could get rid of taxes and just have some sort of per use fee system, but a lot of things that are paid for with taxes are similar to the types of things that you get insurance for. It's something that you're hoping you never need and if it never happens sure you'd owe zero. But do we want to live in a society where you call the police and they give you a $100,000 bill for responding to your burglary call or the fire department wants $500,000 to put out the fire on your property? Or tuition for PUBLIC school is $50,000 a year? None of these things cost that much on a per person basis, but if most people were paying nothing they would have to price gouge the people who were actually using them.

Some people would make out like bandits while others would be bankrupted the first time something bad happened. And what do we do about the military? Do we let the pacifists freeload and pay nothing since they oppose the military? They're still under the military's protection even if they oppose it. Do we keep track of which wars they support and which ones they oppose and adjust their taxes accordingly? Do give people an itemized list of the defense department's budget and they can put a check next to the items they support? Maybe I don't want to pay for the NSA to spy on me. Maybe I don't like men in black so I don't want to support the FBI. Hell, NOBODY likes the IRS. If we just defund them then nobody has to pay any taxes.

Imagine if the postal service charged people in rural areas based on actual cost for delivery instead of making people in urban areas subsidize them? Even worse, imagine if the government didn't require phone and cable companies to subsidize rural service with fees from urban areas? Your phone bill wouldn't be $100 a month, it would be $1000 a month. Your cable bill wouldn't be $200 a month, it would be $2000 a month.

 

[polywog]

The idea of only paying taxes that apply to things you personally use sounds appealing at first glance but if we tried to actually implement it, it would fail miserably. Property taxes are actually a good example for this since a big chunk of property taxes goes to pay for schools. So if I don't have kids then I can cut my property taxes by whatever percentage goes to schools right? I haven't been to a public library in decades either, should we just close all of those? Or maybe I don't think I need cops or firemen or judges so any portion of my taxes that goes to the police, the fire department, or the court system I don't have to pay. If a pacificist opposes the military then they can cut their income tax by whatever percentage goes to the defense budget right? If I don't like old people then I don't have to pay Social Security or Medicare taxes anymore right?

Now someone has to keep track of all of those things I'm not paying so when I DO end up having a kid, tough luck. My kid stays home and I have to home school them. When I get robbed and call the police they just ignore me. When my house catches on fire the fire department doesn't show up. When I get old and didn't save enough for retirement, tough luck, no social security for me I can beg for scraps on the street. And when I get sick doing that, no Medicare for me so when I go to the ER they can just let me die in the waiting room. And of course even the people who DO pay these taxes have to wait for the 911 operator to call some beaurocrat first to see if you paid your "police tax" before dispatching the police, same with the fire department. So anything the government does you have to wait longer for even if you DID pay for it.

I don't like taxes any more than anyone else does but unless I'm going to go buy my own private island and renounce my citizenship they're just a fact of life. And even then I'm probably paying property taxes to whatever country's territory that island is closest to. You could probably get away with no taxes if you live in the middle of nowhere in Alaska. Some cabin 100 miles away from the nearest road for instance where you just built a cabin on land you don't own without telling anyone and just live off the land. Most likely even if it was private property the owner wouldn't care unless you built it on land he actually uses.

I want to pay taxes for schools even though I don't have kids because I know that without them the entire country would be a bunch of illiterate morons. So while it doesn't directly help me now, it did help me when I was a kid and it helps the country as a whole. I know that Social Security is a bad deal for me personally. I would be better off if I didn't have to pay that tax and just invested it instead, but most people wouldn't and I'd rather not see a bunch of old people starving to death on the street when they run out of money so I don't mind paying social security taxes even though it's of no benefit to me personally (it's a negative return for someone in my tax bracket).

Now technically you could get rid of taxes and just have some sort of per use fee system, but a lot of things that are paid for with taxes are similar to the types of things that you get insurance for. It's something that you're hoping you never need and if it never happens sure you'd owe zero. But do we want to live in a society where you call the police and they give you a $100,000 bill for responding to your burglary call or the fire department wants $500,000 to put out the fire on your property? Or tuition for PUBLIC school is $50,000 a year? None of these things cost that much on a per person basis, but if most people were paying nothing they would have to price gouge the people who were actually using them.

Some people would make out like bandits while others would be bankrupted the first time something bad happened. And what do we do about the military? Do we let the pacifists freeload and pay nothing since they oppose the military? They're still under the military's protection even if they oppose it. Do we keep track of which wars they support and which ones they oppose and adjust their taxes accordingly? Do give people an itemized list of the defense department's budget and they can put a check next to the items they support? Maybe I don't want to pay for the NSA to spy on me. Maybe I don't like men in black so I don't want to support the FBI. Hell, NOBODY likes the IRS. If we just defund them then nobody has to pay any taxes.

Imagine if the postal service charged people in rural areas based on actual cost for delivery instead of making people in urban areas subsidize them? Even worse, imagine if the government didn't require phone and cable companies to subsidize rural service with fees from urban areas? Your phone bill wouldn't be $100 a month, it would be $1000 a month. Your cable bill wouldn't be $200 a month, it would be $2000 a month.

I couldn't agree more that there should be a baby tax. If you want to bring a child into this world, you need to get a license for that, and post a bond upfront to provide for that child until they reach the age of majority. That includes food, shelter, education, and a lot more. If you think other people should pay to raise your child, you should be snipped.

 

[Canto Forte]

Independent does not mean happily independent.
eVERYONE MAY ENJOY THEIR BEGRUDGING INDEPENDENCE WHILE ENVYING WORKAHOLICS !

 

[215303j]

I couldn't agree more that there should be a baby tax. If you want to bring a child into this world, you need to get a license for that, and post a bond upfront to provide for that child until they reach the age of majority. That includes food, shelter, education, and a lot more. If you think other people should pay to raise your child, you should be snipped.

The only sure way to make absolutely sure that the Africans are taking over the place in the near future.
I hope you liked Jobeo's latest and greatest game...

 

[polywog]

The only sure way to make absolutely sure that the Africans are taking over the place in the near future.
I hope you liked Jobeo's latest and greatest game...

Haven't played it, post a link. The African birthrate is the lowest in recorded history, a steady decline for the past 70 years.