It's okay to complain while not paying?

[Zippity]

Sticking to a creative concept is the ideal, but not every developer/writer/movie maker can afford that. No developer/writer/movie maker can carter to every wish, but often he wont have the luxury of ignoring audience wishes alltogether. If you are lucky you may be successful with just the game/book/movie you had in mind, but you can't be 100% sure about that. If you already have a concept that is attractive to a broader audience, you may be able to ignore later customer wishes.

I think the less known you are as a developer/writer/movie maker, the more likely you need to "market" you work. Of course you can go a different way, dismiss advice, take the risk and hope to gain access to a completely new audience.

That is the same attitude that is why so many crappy remake movies are being done... Because the industry leaders would rather remake something that made them money once upon a time, rather then gamble on making something creative and unique... I'm all for creative and unique, even if there are a few similarities... But not full on continuous copy catting... As the same exact formula gets used over and over and over again, it becomes diluted and eventually just burns out that formula and ruins it for a very long time...

And with this particular market, it's not really the Players/Readers driving the market of copy cats, it's the Developers/Authors trying to jump on the coat tails of prior products, trying to leach off their success... So you get the market being saturated with lower class copy cat games following the same formula big hitters used... Another example of how greed ruins all the fun... It's only every once in a while, we get some really promising newly developed visual novel/games that are trying to be more creative or putting entirely new twists on old concepts, rather then practically copy catting overused concepts... Copy cats will never be as good as the originals they are copy catting, most of the time... It just shows the lack of a creative mind when you see it happening so much... Greed over need, is what is happening a lot these days... When instead, the industry needs innovation and creativity and original thinking...

 

[Ataios]

That is the same attitude that is why so many crappy remake movies are being done... Because the industry leaders would rather remake something that made them money once upon a time, rather then gamble on making something creative and unique... I'm all for creative and unique, even if there are a few similarities... But not full on continuous copy catting... As the same exact formula gets used over and over and over again, it becomes diluted and eventually just burns out that formula and ruins it for a very long time...

And with this particular market, it's not really the Players/Readers driving the market of copy cats, it's the Developers/Authors trying to jump on the coat tails of prior products, trying to leach off their success... So you get the market being saturated with lower class copy cat games following the same formula big hitters used... Another example of how greed ruins all the fun... It's only every once in a while, we get some really promising newly developed visual novel/games that are trying to be more creative or putting entirely new twists on old concepts, rather then practically copy catting overused concepts... Copy cats will never be as good as the originals they are copy catting, most of the time... It just shows the lack of a creative mind when you see it happening so much... Greed over need, is what is happening a lot these days... When instead, the industry needs innovation and creativity and original thinking...

But we're not talking about people anywhere near being capable of making remakes or being part of an industry. It's about people developing their FIRST game, writing their FIRST book or making their FIRST movie. It's not about greed it's about making a living, paying a rent and food for a single person or a family at best and maybe, just maybe the shimmer of hope of becoming part of an industry some day in a very very distant future.

 

[Zippity]

But we're not talking about people anywhere near being capable of making remakes or being part of an industry. It's about people developing their FIRST game, writing their FIRST book or making their FIRST movie. It's not about greed it's about making a living, paying a rent and food for a single person or a family at best and maybe, just maybe the shimmer of hope of becoming part of an industry some day in a very very distant future.

For some folks, they are trying to break into the market... But if they are copying other works all the time, then the market gets flooded with all these first time copy cat products, which almost guarantees a market full of substandard material that will never make it in the long run... It's not always the case, but it's happening a lot as we speak... Tons of these starters that don't show much real originality, and when they don't do so hot, they either putter along slowly and/or eventually just disappear... It's the folks putting in some originality, or coming at it from new angles, or showing creativity with higher production value, and so forth, that tend to do a lot better and actually make it somewhere...

The porn industry is a struggling up and down world when it comes to trying to earn a living over just trying to etch out a space to be creative and show off ones abilities... This particular niche of the industry relies almost solely on the whims of donations... It is not a capitalist endeavor where products are made and sold for a profit... So many people forget, it's almost entirely built on fan donations... And there is nothing stable about donations over long periods of time... You have to keep working really hard to create any sort of stability... This isn't an industry of professional business either, as it's almost entirely made up of Amateur Artists/Authors/Developers with rarely any of them actual having business licensing or anything like that... People stealing off one another, stealing off the internet, rarely using anything with permission, etc... It's a very monetarily volatile industry...

And for those who constantly pander to their fans when making a product, just in order to keep them from stopping their donations, because they want something you do not (as the developers), it has been proven time and again that 9 times out of 10, producing these kinds of products in that way, in the long run, produces an overall faulty product that will actually bring in less revenue over the long stretch, then if it was a well put together product where the developers stuck to their guns... You may get that rare gem where it luckily worked out, but it's rare... Plus, with the introduction of sites like Patreon, greed and milking has become more prevalent... Which is in essence a long term con...

And in some cases, it may start off as a way of perhaps making a living or getting a foot hold in the market, but sometimes ends up being more about greed... I'm not saying that is always the case... But it's becoming more common place then it used to...

 

[toolkitxx]

Interesting enough many of the really good games (in terms of actual original style or mechanics) are the ones that never took any donations/payments to begin with.

The crux is that taking money for something creates a complete change in mindset (on both sides). With payments - be it real payment or actively asking for support/donations - the result becomes a product as there is exchange in some form between the provider and the receiver. Thus reviews and criticism are on the same level as for any 'paid' service or product.

One of the very best examples of something really extraordinary that never asked actively for any donations is the Mod 'Enderal' for Skyrim. A group of actually pretty professional working enthusiasts made that project something outstanding which in return made those creators receive high praise. Their 'payment' is a good entry on their CV, attention by others in the industry etc.

Criticism in any form has nothing to do with payment options. Based on the overwhelming amount of cheap and badly produced stuff in the adult area its actually pretty silent out there in regards to hate or badmouthing.

 

[Ataios]

I was ONLY talking about the necessity someone needs to earn a living, not about a life in luxury: A place to live, food and a reasonably fast internet connection for a single person or family, depending on the developers/writers/movie makers situation. It was NOT meant for people who are already wealthy and who want to increase their fame and fortune.

To make it clear: I'm NOT among the "let the market decide" faction.

 

[Hentami]

One of the best lessons in life is learning to ignore useless negative people. By that standard we receive valuable personal growth from those types of comments.

 

[bas]

Criticism from non paying customers is fine and is something that creators have to learn to deal with. The reality is that everyone has an opinion whether they have played a game or not. Take Deeper for example. The first day I posted the game, i got a huge number of comments from people who point blank refused to play the game because I added the Transgender tag, and the mere suggestion that there was a transgender in the game was enough for people to develop their opinion.
As a developer it's important to separate fact from opinion, and understand that listening to the non paying potential customers is equally as important as listening to the paying existing customers because they might give you insight into ways that you can capture their attention. As someone who reads a lot of comments both negative and positive it is necessary to develop a thick skin and try to pick out the important details from the emotional comments. If someone has had a negative experience, they may not elaborate on why it was negative and instead resort to unnecessarily derogatory language, and you can either choose to engage with them to try to get to the facts or you can do the modern thing of calling them haters and blindly carry on.

There were maybe 5 people that passed on your game because of the transgender character - not a single one in a hateful manner btw - and you choose to focus on that small minority instead of the 22 page wall of bug reports that is your game thread? Yes, you've said for 3 months "it's an early Alpha" - that doesn't mean you shouldn't test it before posting.

Most devs take constructive feedback, some even look for the wisdom in the shit-posts, but your tunnel vision perceptions of what people are trying to tell you about your game is borderline delusional.

Please stop talking and writing like you're a seasoned dev if you're not even going to feign acting like one.

 

[Fasder]

So I've skimmed through this thread for a couple of days, and as far as I can remember(I'm really tired right now) this has not been mentioned yet.

One of the reasons I started making my game was that I felt like there was a game that was missing. I wanted something a little different and since no one else was making it I figured I could. So I started to learn the basics of making this type of game, I started with a high bar for myself and it took me a good while before I had a decent framework in place.
Now I'm not a game designer/artist/developer/director by trade, which means I rely on the help of others to make the best possible game. Making interesting game mechanics for instance is very hard, especially if you want them to make some kind of sense with what's going on in the game.
So getting constructive feedback from people, regardless of if they paid me or not, is invaluable as it helps me become a better developer and hopefully make a good product.

I think my game would have looked and played a lot differently had I not posted it here initially. I've learned a lot and I keep finding new things to figure out, all thanks to the people who give me feedback.
Making a game can be easy but making a great or even good game is waaaaay harder, especially if you're a one man show, like me.

All in all, I want to make the best possible game I can, which means that I need to listen(to a certain extent) to what people are saying.

 

[freedom.call]

I considered supporting a few games on Patreon and was happy to see Paypal there, because I don't want to link my cards to any online stuff I don't absolutely need to. To my surprise a window popped up saying 'yeah, sorry fool, we still need your card details'. Wish there were one time support options, I'm sure devs could use the money that came from that too.
But I've digressed, before even saying anything on topic! x'D Sorry.

I try not to be too hard on games I don't like, or even comment on them for the most part. I don't really see the point in criticising something you don't like or won't play again, commenting good/bad on aspects of games you love is good imo.

 

[Thundorn]

One of the best lessons in life is learning to ignore useless negative people. By that standard we receive valuable personal growth from those types of comments.

Seems strangely appropriate at the moment

 

[Zippity]

I considered supporting a few games on Patreon and was happy to see Paypal there, because I don't want to link my cards to any online stuff I don't absolutely need to. To my surprise a window popped up saying 'yeah, sorry fool, we still need your card details'. Wish there were one time support options, I'm sure devs could use the money that came from that too.
But I've digressed, before even saying anything on topic! x'D Sorry.

I try not to be too hard on games I don't like, or even comment on them for the most part. I don't really see the point in criticising something you don't like or won't play again, commenting good/bad on aspects of games you love is good imo.

For me that is one of the biggest failings of some of these newer patron based donation website... They do not offer enough choices for donation types... They only offer the subscription method... And, they allow creators to hide how much they are making... Most crowd sourcing websites offer choices and don't hide donation information...

The whole idea that you can't even communicate at all with a creator on their site, unless you are a subscribing patron to that creators page, is ludicrous in my mind... The fact they can hide how much they are making, makes me automatically suspicious of their real intentions for asking that donations be made... Patreon just has a lot of business practices that give a huge opportunity for generous people to be taken advantage of... We know it's happening, and because of their business model, it's harder to detect and is a magnet for con artists... What's to stop half the creators from only working on a project 1 week a month, and vacationing with the money for the next 3 weeks... I love it when a creator on Patreon claims they have some health or family issue they need to attend for a month or more, then promise to pause the monthly funds from posting, if they are able to... Which they very easily can... But then they don't... And your only recourse is either just suck it up and pay the donation when nothing is actually being worked on, or halt donating all together... If you were the financial officer of a business, would you pay the workers for not doing anything? Especially when they told you they were not coming into work for a month or more? Nope... It's why I hate the subscription method of donating... Just too many opportunities for abuse and not enough accountability beyond just un-subing...

Anyhoooo...

 

[freedom.call]

I love it when a creator on Patreon claims they have some health or family issue.

I would demand a sick note from a doctor if I pledged, perhaps Doctor Amana could oblige?

Anyhoooo...

I agree with everything you wrote. Good post. Terrible system.

 

[SolarEclipsed]

I love it when a creator on Patreon claims they have some health or family issue they need to attend for a month or more, then promise to pause the monthly funds from posting, if they are able to... Which they very easily can... But then they don't... And your only recourse is either just suck it up and pay the donation when nothing is actually being worked on, or halt donating all together...

I have a feeling I know who you are talking about.

Spoiler

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[Zippity]

I have a feeling I know who you are talking about.

Spoiler

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I could name several in recent memory, but I'm not going to point fingers...

 

[mike5000]

So I've skimmed through this thread for a couple of days, and as far as I can remember(I'm really tired right now) this has not been mentioned yet.

One of the reasons I started making my game was that I felt like there was a game that was missing. I wanted something a little different and since no one else was making it I figured I could. So I started to learn the basics of making this type of game, I started with a high bar for myself and it took me a good while before I had a decent framework in place.
Now I'm not a game designer/artist/developer/director by trade, which means I rely on the help of others to make the best possible game. Making interesting game mechanics for instance is very hard, especially if you want them to make some kind of sense with what's going on in the game.
So getting constructive feedback from people, regardless of if they paid me or not, is invaluable as it helps me become a better developer and hopefully make a good product.

I think my game would have looked and played a lot differently had I not posted it here initially. I've learned a lot and I keep finding new things to figure out, all thanks to the people who give me feedback.
Making a game can be easy but making a great or even good game is waaaaay harder, especially if you're a one man show, like me.

All in all, I want to make the best possible game I can, which means that I need to listen(to a certain extent) to what people are saying.

as a consumer i can tell you this

be honest always with the people that likes or follow your work ( if you need more time to release an update go straight to them with a real excuse , lots will complaint but at the end if they note the honestly in you they will understad )

people support games for various reasons but i think the main ones are

be part of the game, share ideas with the devs, keep in touch with them , and motivate devs to work harder in their proyects because the consumers once they like it they want more and more

a decent game with constant updates and an active comunications with their followers will be the best game

greetings

 

[SoulFoZoid]

I give this metaphor (my two cents).

You are contracted to make a logo.

You sketch a lot of different designs show to the client one gets approved.

Next day the clients shows the sketch to his close friends.

They give a constructive and well thought out opinions because they are close to the client.

You are given instructions on how to improve the logo.

The new logo is done.


Lets say the client instead shows the sketch logo to the coworkers at his company.

Some are indifferent some trash it.

You start from scratch and draw a new set of sketches.

Cycle repeats.

 

[Vanaduke]

I can't believe I haven't weighed in. No, no right at all.

I treat pledges in patron as security interests. The developer has an obligation and the responsibility to provide me the services he/she promised. If he fails to meet his promises or the agreed upon objectives, I withdraw or because I've pledged one too many games that I had to cut the others off. Or maybe because the game has turned into a full-blown milking machine with relatively few releases and significant action. I'm looking at you, Dual Family.

It's like dining in a restaurant, I have the right to call out the cold dish but the hobo on the alley has no right to complain for the scraps he scavenges nor make demands. There's a difference between a pirate with an etiquette and a beggar. A civilized pirate pledges on the day of the release and leeches the rest. Arrrrr...

 

[Early Cuyler]

It's like dining in a restaurant, I have the right to call out the cold dish but the hobo on the alley has no right to complain for the scraps he scavenges nor make demands. There's a difference between a pirate with an etiquette and a beggar.

Nice Analogy.

 

[HiEv]

If you're reviewing something, sure, complaints are fine, because you're trying to tell other people what you did and didn't like about it. They can agree or disagree, since you're just stating your opinion.

If you're talking to the developer, on the other hand, don't merely complain. Constructive criticism is great. Explaining things that were problems for you and how they might be fixed, also good. Suggestions about additions you'd like to see are fine too, as long as you understand that they might not be accepted because they clash with the designer's plans for the game.

But merely bitching and moaning at the developer? No, don't do that. Just play something else. Maybe the game will get better as time goes on, but if you can't be bothered to even try to suggest a way to improve or correct it, you're not being helpful, you're just being an annoying pest.

I honestly don't understand the people who respond in a thread with some equivalent of "I didn't like this" with no explanation of why they didn't like it or how it could be corrected. Doubly-so the people who respond to a game with the equivalent of "I don't like this type/genre of game". Well then, don't play it. People who do like that type of game generally don't give a damn if some random stranger on the Internet disapproves of their taste. Seriously, if you're in a restaurant and you see some person you don't know eating some food you don't like, do you march up to them and let them know that you don't like that kind of food? Of course not! So don't do that on the Internet either, please.

I feel that this is true, regardless of whether or not you paid for the game. You can be informative, helpful, silent, or a douche bag. If you don't know how to do either of the first two, being silent is preferable to being "that guy."

 

[Deleted member 635942]

When you release you game you open the door.

People on here are generally nice, we have discussions and we argue and post or opinions and that is all they are. Respect each other and say things tactfully.

Now go to 4chan and see what real "we are anonymous on the Internet" people look like.