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ImperatorAugustusTertius

Engaged Member
Sep 12, 2020
2,213
861
Ah, then I wouldn't ^^

Or maybe I'll make it two negative moodlets at 0 devotion with -1 energy (+ risk of rebellion around when you just got her)
And then one negative moodlet and -0,5 energy at 1 devotion

I kind of assume that sleeping with the master at 2 devotion gave energy bonus and mood bonus (as opposed to sleeping on a bedroll that would give an energy malus). If that's the case, then it's easy, at 1 devotion make it neutral: no moodlet and +0 energy. With a slightly modified response in "how do you feel" that would be like: "I would still prefer sleeping alone rather than with you but it wasn't the end of the world..."
Currently, with no devotion, it increases despair, and with one star of devotion, it increases pride and spoiling.

In 1.2.1, it always spoiled the slave a little bit, reduced mood proportional to pride, increased mood proportional to devotion, and gave an energy boost.

The concept of sleeping in bed without enough devotion having significant downsides is an HF-era legacy, presumably with the idea that treating the slave more like an equal undermines the master's position of superiority. It is also a significant show of trust to allow the slave to be so close to the master while he sleeps, as he is at his most vulnerable then.
 

way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
Currently, with no devotion, it increases despair, and with one star of devotion, it increases pride and spoiling.

In 1.2.1, it always spoiled the slave a little bit, reduced mood proportional to pride, increased mood proportional to devotion, and gave an energy boost.

The concept of sleeping in bed without enough devotion having significant downsides is an HF-era legacy, presumably with the idea that treating the slave more like an equal undermines the master's position of superiority. It is also a significant show of trust to allow the slave to be so close to the master while he sleeps, as he is at his most vulnerable then.
All very good points honestly.
 

qwertyu12359

Jack-o-nine-tails
Game Developer
Aug 1, 2017
1,638
1,823
Currently, with no devotion, it increases despair, and with one star of devotion, it increases pride and spoiling.
Maybe then the only thing it needs (for now at least) is a different phrasing on her response for "how do you feel" depending on if she has 0 devotion or 1 devotion (y)
 

way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
You were using rules that the game tells you not to use until the slave is devoted (fresh food, sleep in my bed). The fact that you managed to pull it off is impressive. If you avoid both, or at least the bed rule, you should be able to get to C+ faster.
I hear what you're saying, but look at it this way. Raising from D- to D+ has a 250 spark difference. That can be done in a fairly reasonable amount of time and will in most cases be worthwhile to do.

Raising from D+ to C- is only an improvement of 100 sparks, and means with extreme costs of living is not at all worth doing unless you can do it in 1 or 2 days.

The jump from C- to C+ is 150, or if you look at it for D+ to C+ for a full letter grade improvement is only 250 which means you have to make that full jump in less than a decade to make any kind of profit considering rent, food, clothing, rewards, ect.

I obviously don't have the experience you guys have, but the way I personally see it, it just doesn't appear to be financially viable with the way the prices are handled for C class slaves. It would obviously be a different case on medium where rent costs are so much lower and training is easier in general and you also have access to better masters with a plethora of strong skills to rely on, but on extreme where none of those are the case, the prices just don't seem viable. It feels like your only real choice is to rely on D+ until you can save up enough to make the jump to B. There doesn't appear to be much valid progression there.
 

Projekt Night

Newbie
Sep 2, 2016
98
203
Can all slaves develop new traits or get rid of bad ones over time? I saw a link in the wiki to an outdated guide that was talking about requirements for Felicity which had her getting new traits.
 

way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
Question... I know clothing that's bound to a slave is obviously only good for them, but things like weapons and armor can obviously be switched and moved around... But if you sell a slave wearing said armor or with weapons, you lose those right? Think I just lost a stiletto and will chalk it up as something to be careful about in the future! Could have been much worse. lol
 

ImperatorAugustusTertius

Engaged Member
Sep 12, 2020
2,213
861
I hear what you're saying, but look at it this way. Raising from D- to D+ has a 250 spark difference. That can be done in a fairly reasonable amount of time and will in most cases be worthwhile to do.

Raising from D+ to C- is only an improvement of 100 sparks, and means with extreme costs of living is not at all worth doing unless you can do it in 1 or 2 days.
D+ needs the equivalent of three B+ common skills and one D- common skill.

From D+ to C- needs only a minimal amount of sex experience (from F- in all sex skills, reaching C- in gangbang will bring up all other needed skills to an adequate level, so effectively less than a day of training for the sex portion). Also, mature or young slaves may have these skills from the start.

C- also needs the equivalent of five B+ common skills (for example two B+, three C-, three D-). By spreading out training across more skills, you can reach the needed level faster because lower levels require less training to reach. You usually can reach the necessary levels of common skills in parallel with building up to the necessary level of obedience, so it doesn't add more training time. It might add more cost, but it's "free" if you have an assistant or can train the skills yourself, and D- or C- school lessons are relatively cheap.

The jump from C- to C+ is 150, or if you look at it for D+ to C+ for a full letter grade improvement is only 250 which means you have to make that full jump in less than a decade to make any kind of profit considering rent, food, clothing, rewards, ect.
What often happens with a more capable master is that the slave becomes devoted within 10 days after reaching D-, in which case you're held back only by the needed skills training. Effectively, the D and C ranks are clustered in value because you can achieve them in a similar amount of time (especially as your skills grow or you gain the help of an assistant).

C- to C+ needs only a little bit more common and sex skill. For example, adding three more D- common skills, raising gangbang to B+, deepthroat to C- and kiss to D- is enough. One day for common skills, one or two days for the sex skills. Can be less if you use some drugs.

I obviously don't have the experience you guys have, but the way I personally see it, it just doesn't appear to be financially viable with the way the prices are handled for C class slaves. It would obviously be a different case on medium where rent costs are so much lower and training is easier in general and you also have access to better masters with a plethora of strong skills to rely on, but on extreme where none of those are the case, the prices just don't seem viable. It feels like your only real choice is to rely on D+ until you can save up enough to make the jump to B. There doesn't appear to be much valid progression there.
Don't forget that you can sell slaves in the guild auction for more than the base values. Also, don't forget that every decade you can supplement your income with arena events.

By the time you are living in an apartment, on extreme difficulty, you would ideally have B+ guild reputation and be able to send two slaves to the arena every decade, but even if not, you can still get at least 50 sparks per decade from the arena. You can use Isabella as your first gladiatrix if you haven't acquired another "keeper" slave already. She's devoted when you acquire her, so she won't accept freedom when she wins the champion battle. Arena champions can bring in more than 100 sparks per decade.

Isabella has traits that give her bonuses as a pony girl to make winning races easier, so eventually she can be bringing in another a couple of hundred sparks per decade for you.

In the Outcasts, you also have a free barn. If you put an egglayer in there, she'll start producing sparks after she recovers from her surgery. That's a completely passive ongoing income stream with a one-time investment to acquire a slave and give her the oviparity surgery (you have the ongoing cost of feeding her, but it's less than the income she generates). And the egglayer can be used as another gladiatrix when your guild reputation is high enough to support it.

If you don't use any of that supplemental income, on extreme difficulty, you might need to rely more on auctions to maximize your income. I'm not sure, because I didn't balance extreme around the expectation of living solely on slave sale income. If you don't plan to take advantage of any supplemental income, staying in the Slums longer is a more viable strategy, because your costs will be lower. If you do take advantage of supplemental income, you have more ways to get it if you live in an apartment.
 
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way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
What often happens with a more capable master is that the slave becomes devoted within 10 days after reaching D-, in which case you're held back only by the needed skills training. Effectively, the D and C ranks are clustered in value because you can achieve them in a similar amount of time (especially as your skills grow or you gain the help of an assistant).
Yeah I can see that happening for a capable master, which you can easily have on lesser difficulty levels, but when playing on extreme you really don't have the points for one yes.

Again I understand if you guys feel differently about it, I'm definitely not intending for this to sound like me arguing with you or anything. Just sharing my personal perspective. I personally feel that with the incredible value of B+ slaves as has been pointed out, that a more capable master would ultimately be wasting their time trying to farm out a bunch of D+ or C+ rated slaves. It may be profitable with cheap living conditions but not nearly as profitable as it would be for them to push for the higher quality slaves they can successfully train.

But when you're starting on extreme with a relatively incompetent slaver, B+ is well beyond your immediate reach in terms of skill and finances. That's what the lower level slaves are for in my opinion. An opportunity to let a player gradually progress to the more ideal points they should be trying to attain and just can't reach yet. And it's in that case that I feel the C- and C+ grades fall short as they provide for poor progression.

Don't forget that you can sell slaves in the guild auction for more than the base values. Also, don't forget that every decade you can supplement your income with arena events.

By the time you are living in an apartment, on extreme difficulty, you would ideally have B+ guild reputation and be able to send two slaves to the arena every decade, but even if not, you can still get at least 50 sparks per decade from the arena. You can use Isabella as your first gladiatrix if you haven't acquired another "keeper" slave already. She's devoted when you acquire her, so she won't accept freedom when she wins the champion battle. Arena champions can bring in more than 100 sparks per decade.
This is a valid point in many cases, but not always. The slave I picked up right now seems well suited to what I'm wanting in terms of someone I can break and train quickly for a fast turnaround on profit simply so I can pay my rent, and yet her sanity is already borderline. Gladiatorial bouts absolutely devastate your slave's empathy which will immediately cross that sanity threshold and force me to put extra effort into building them back up enough again to bring her out of it... All for a slave I don't intend to train as a gladiator in the first place. I'm leaning more towards an artist considering she has the graceful trait. But that severely limits my opportunities to make money on the side without renting and gaining access to assistants.

Using Isabella to do it seems like a great option and one I was thinking about myself so that will help, but that's just because Isabella is OP and can do everything for you in general. lol. It's just a shame that there aren't many other ways to supplement your income outside of the arena with slaves from other proclivities. Not counting the egg laying one you mentioned before of course, but I'm talking about assistants, artists, witchdoctors, and the like not having any viable way to earn you money beyond being sold. Gladiatrix's and pets are the only ways I know of to benefit financially beyond just the sale which makes trying to train other types at a disadvantage.

Isabella has traits that give her bonuses as a pony girl to make winning races easier, so eventually she can be bringing in another a couple of hundred sparks per decade for you.
A good point and I really need to look into how the races work in general. It's about time I figured out how that works. lol. But seriously, is there anything that chick isn't great for?

In the Outcasts, you also have a free barn. If you put an egglayer in there, she'll start producing sparks after she recovers from her surgery. That's a completely passive ongoing income stream with a one-time investment to acquire a slave and give her the oviparity surgery (you have the ongoing cost of feeding her, but it's less than the income she generates). And the egglayer can be used as another gladiatrix when your guild reputation is high enough to support it.

If you don't use any of that supplemental income, on extreme difficulty, you might need to rely more on auctions to maximize your income. I'm not sure, because I didn't balance extreme around the expectation of living solely on slave sale income. If you don't plan to take advantage of any supplemental income, staying in the Slums longer is a more viable strategy, because your costs will be lower. If you do take advantage of supplemental income, you have more ways to get it if you live in an apartment.
Commented above and yeah I know you're right. I just feel like I'm being somewhat shoehorned into a few specific choices as being valid with those few limited options. If there were more diverse options for supplemental income I don't think I'd be as bothered by it. lol
 

way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
Something I've noticed is the font for the "-" symbol is very feint when for example holding the cursor over their physique to see if they're close to gaining or losing weight. In that popup that shows you the precise score they currently have in it, the "+" is very visible, but the "-" is so feint I have to get super close to the screen to confirm there's something there at all.
 

way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
I got her charm to blue, shes S+ and has all the requirements, yet tiamat still says thevhidden malice stuff.
Doesn't charm have to be equal to her rating? So if she's S+ rating then she'd have to have green S+ charm as well. Unless I'm just mistaken but I believe I read that somewhere.
 

Mrepepe

New Member
Dec 5, 2020
6
2
Doesn't charm have to be equal to her rating? So if she's S+ rating then she'd have to have green S+ charm as well. Unless I'm just mistaken but I believe I read that somewhere.
I had to grind fame for green charm but I still get the hidden malice reply...
 

way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
I had to grind fame for green charm but I still get the hidden malice reply...
Yeah I misread your message. My bad. Besides that message is a bit misleading if it is implying her charm isn't good enough. I'd trust ImperatorAugustusTertius 's word over mine so if that's what he says it is then I'd believe him and be confused. But that message talking about malice in the eyes feels weird to be talking about charm to me. It sounds like it would be saying obedience or devotion wasn't high enough if I had to guess, but that's exactly what it is. A completely blind guess. I have no idea.
 

joeshmo828282

Newbie
Mar 23, 2022
98
62
Edit: i am dumb. I just needed to let a day pass for it to update.


hmmm. has anyone managed to get an S+ lactation rating?

The code seems to suggest that chubby+maximum endurance is needed for S+....

but. If you 'rank up' your slave to chubby, her endurance drops, and the text for athletics seems to suggest that being chubby and enduring at the same time is impossible.

also, when endurance drops due to reaching chubby, it doesnt reset to zero like all other changes, but in fact stays at the number it was.

attached is a save of my otherwise perfect cow.
 
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ImperatorAugustusTertius

Engaged Member
Sep 12, 2020
2,213
861
Yeah I can see that happening for a capable master, which you can easily have on lesser difficulty levels, but when playing on extreme you really don't have the points for one yes.
Where the master lacks innate ability, you can compensate with sparks (school/tutors, items, rewards, even magic), although it will take longer to reach D- when you are offsetting penalties instead of stacking bonuses.

Even an F- master can have a slave gain 1 star of devotion within the first decade after reaching D-. Not always, of course, but it's possible.

Again I understand if you guys feel differently about it, I'm definitely not intending for this to sound like me arguing with you or anything. Just sharing my personal perspective. I personally feel that with the incredible value of B+ slaves as has been pointed out, that a more capable master would ultimately be wasting their time trying to farm out a bunch of D+ or C+ rated slaves. It may be profitable with cheap living conditions but not nearly as profitable as it would be for them to push for the higher quality slaves they can successfully train.
The reason for the gap in value between C and B is exactly this, to encourage pushing for higher quality. And to make the early game more challenging, of course.

But when you're starting on extreme with a relatively incompetent slaver, B+ is well beyond your immediate reach in terms of skill and finances. That's what the lower level slaves are for in my opinion. An opportunity to let a player gradually progress to the more ideal points they should be trying to attain and just can't reach yet. And it's in that case that I feel the C- and C+ grades fall short as they provide for poor progression.
One of my balancing principles for extreme difficulty is that it should be possible to train your very first slave all the way to S+ while living in the Slums.

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Gladiatorial bouts absolutely devastate your slave's empathy which will immediately cross that sanity threshold
You're confusing empathy with temperament. Arena battles raise both temperament and nature, which together with pride determine the slave's sanity level.

Using Isabella to do it seems like a great option and one I was thinking about myself so that will help, but that's just because Isabella is OP and can do everything for you in general. lol. It's just a shame that there aren't many other ways to supplement your income outside of the arena with slaves from other proclivities. Not counting the egg laying one you mentioned before of course, but I'm talking about assistants, artists, witchdoctors, and the like not having any viable way to earn you money beyond being sold. Gladiatrix's and pets are the only ways I know of to benefit financially beyond just the sale which makes trying to train other types at a disadvantage.
Yes, we've talked about adding activities to give slaves a chance to show off their other skills. Of course, musicians and dancers can entertain you, nurses can help with natural healing to reduce medical costs, secretaries can reduce your bills, alchemists can brew for you (cost/benefit), elocutionists and pets can make you happier, ponies can win races...

A good point and I really need to look into how the races work in general. It's about time I figured out how that works. lol. But seriously, is there anything that chick isn't great for?
Initially, she's not great at accounting, but she's clever enough to pick it up quickly.

Commented above and yeah I know you're right. I just feel like I'm being somewhat shoehorned into a few specific choices as being valid with those few limited options. If there were more diverse options for supplemental income I don't think I'd be as bothered by it. lol
There's also hunting along the border of the Fogs, training cows (for sale or for milk), growing pigs (for slaughter), and you can make your slave a public toilet to earn 1$.
 
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ImperatorAugustusTertius

Engaged Member
Sep 12, 2020
2,213
861
Something I've noticed is the font for the "-" symbol is very feint when for example holding the cursor over their physique to see if they're close to gaining or losing weight. In that popup that shows you the precise score they currently have in it, the "+" is very visible, but the "-" is so feint I have to get super close to the screen to confirm there's something there at all.
If you resize the window, this happens because our UI doesn't scale properly.
 

way2co0l

Member
Oct 3, 2017
202
67
I do appreciate you typing all of this out and there's some good information in here!

And I'll concede there are some alternative options in there, but as it stands I feel kind of forced into a single playstyle in order to succeed. Most of what you typed up basically revolved around the colosseum which as I currently understand it is the only solid path to succeeding on extreme difficulty.

Other options are only viable sources of income down the road. You won't be hunting in the fogs anytime soon. Training cows, pigs, or egg layers to my knowledge requires a barn which the cheapest access to that comes from the outcasts but my very first decade's bill from there turned out to be 340 sparks.

I'm resetting my game back to the point I sold my last slave and staying in the slums because I simply can't afford that with the payouts I'm currently looking at, and I'm basically resigning myself to the fact I'm going to need to train a gladiatrix as that appears to be the only way I'll be able to get myself out of the slums anytime soon.

Like, I'm not denying it's possible to do, it just feels like there's really only one way to do it which means my plan to train an artist has to get thrown away because I simply cannot make it work. I tried and got 14 days in before I decided to give up on it. The money I was going to make from it wasn't going to cover my expenses ultimately. At least not while renting with the food costs for slave+assistant and standard of living increase to my expenses. I would have had to train a D+ slave in 2 decades to break even come close to breaking even and that wasn't going to happen. I can make a profit on an artist if I stay in the slums but there's no way I can do it with renting costs.

You're confusing empathy with temperament. Arena battles raise both temperament and nature, which together with pride determine the slave's sanity level.
Edit... Just re-read the tooltip and indeed I was reading it wrong. My apologies. :)
 
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