QSP Jack-o-Nine-Tails [v2.3] [ImperatorAugustusTertius / qwertyu12359]

[qwertyu12359]

it doesn't make sense why I can't turn in the second (I've checked for things like diseases/bruises/pregnancy. I'm sure its another stat other than the specialization skills/overall grade, like IDK... pride/obedience/taming or something? but I've got no clue, and the hgames wiki is old and not really very clear any more. This was with slaves from the auction house, because I froze an almost perfect contract slave I got on the original contract.

The key is in the dialogue. It's probably charm, it's always charm ^^

Also, I've been mulling making the underlying psychology (I've done quite a bit of academic reading on the subject) a little more accurate to how behavioral extinction/operant conditioning actually works.

Great, I'm all for rigor put in the game design

To nuance everything beforehand, I think we'll agree that there are no laws in psychology. In human science, knowledge is true in a referential, historically and perhaps even geographically contingent. With the premise that humans come from different worlds and arrive in a world where cannibalism is legal and there are non-humans... that's a whole other paradigm with completely different rules than ours. So we'll have to transpose psychology knowledge to this dark fantasy world. But I'm sure we can make it. Especially if there is scientific data on the psychology of slaves and sexual slaves in societies where it is/was the norm.

1) Guilt being random from 1-5 (it seems like,) when the "correct" and non-spoiling thing to do is to match the punishment to the guilt level. Would a slave feel guilty enough to be tortured over a flame pit (and spoiled otherwise,) when they're a new slave and just refused a consensual blow job? My concept is that the slave should not be guiltier than 1 (or 2 randomly maybe?) more than the maximum fear that they've experienced. Thus that could ramp up quickly, but just starting out with torture doesn't give much of a realistic progression.

I don't remember having seen a slave that get 5 degrees of guilt at the first disobedience. It's usually 1 or 2 at the beginning.

But you know, one girl that was rescued from being raped by an orc and arrives in a home... maybe she'll act mighty, but, there are chances that she'll still have a fear of having to be on her own again in the fog. So if she strongly disobey, she will still be sad of being threatened of death (as the mood malus shows), but she won't feel like this comes out of nowhere.

I mean if my boss starts to whip me at work because I ruined the company I'll tell him to fuck himself. But during slavery it becomes the norm just to walk faster. There was also something like, putting a knife below the testicles for hours until the slave was too exhausted, kinda for the lulz. And these real life slaves despite their numbers didn't rebel.

2) Spoiling is surprisingly persistent if you don't nip it in the bud, even with a slave that's punished appropriately and harshly on regular occasions, and "put in place" isn't viable. The game does need challenge, so it shouldn't be press one button to win, but at the same time, it doesn't seem like horrific consequences are as effective on a spoiled brat as they should be.

Never managed to get a slave spoiled. Maybe it's the slaver's stat? So I can't speak on that matter.

3) One of the most important things with operant conditioning is consistency, adaptive punishments (a punishing/reward act isn't a punishment/reward technically, if it doesn't alter behavior) so escalating threats/promises with follow through of associated punishments/rewards should result in a graduated measure of punishment_consistency and reward_consistency, which is how much a slave trusts whether a master will follow through on threats and promises, and that their refusals/agreements have consequences (this is already partially in place with obedience/fear/mood/taming but operant conditioning has a concept of frequency and regularity of punishment and reward effecting behavior. I think these two consistency stats would allow a more appropriate forced type of communication of how slavery works, even when the slave is uncooperative.)

That's a bit blurry for now, but as you said it's a mockup. I'll be looking forward to your future proof of concept

4) Incredibly aversive acts for the slave should have slaves begging for the slaver to not do those things, unprovoked -- provided that punishments are consistent with guilt (And there could be multiple cognitive behavioral messaging options in response. I.E. Glass half empty "I'm doing this because you refused to do what I want," or Glass half full "If you don't do what I want."

Agreed that some things are dumb. For exemple, you get a slave to eat your shit easily, but asking her to act like a pet she'll refused even after all the punishments possible, because it's locked behind the devotion stat. heh'

That's part of the things to change!

5) Are imprisonment and isolation mechanics clear and do they make sense?

No ^^

I mean, that and the dungeon... a former developer examined the system and told me it had a use, but I almost don't see any. However, everyone has his techniques to get a slave to be obedient and maybe that's effective for some players.

 

[Imperator_Augustus_Verus]

I started a new game with Johnny (on 2.1dev-loli,) turned in a first contract okay (so I'm not a COMPLETE idiot,) and then it doesn't make sense why I can't turn in the second (I've checked for things like diseases/bruises/pregnancy. I'm sure its another stat other than the specialization skills/overall grade, like IDK... pride/obedience/taming or something? but I've got no clue, and the hgames wiki is old and not really very clear any more. This was with slaves from the auction house, because I froze an almost perfect contract slave I got on the original contract.

If you provide a copy of your saved game just before failing to turn in the slave, I will check why it is being rejected.

I'm playing one of the dev branches, fwiw.

Which one? master_ia is the most advanced at the moment.

Are the inteface/UI implementation in the qsp, or the json or both?

Mostly qsp, but some json too.

Seems like you guys have this in hand, but would you like another to push out the updates a little faster (because I'm sure we'd all like a bug free game and more feature enhancements...

If you want to help, by all means. Take a look at what I've been doing on the master_ia branch for a start, and share your thoughts or propose a project that you want to work on.

Also, I've been mulling making the underlying psychology (I've done quite a bit of academic reading on the subject) a little more accurate to how behavioral extinction/operant conditioning actually works.

Sounds promising.

There are a few things that don't make sense:

1) Guilt being random from 1-5 (it seems like,) when the "correct" and non-spoiling thing to do is to match the punishment to the guilt level. Would a slave feel guilty enough to be tortured over a flame pit (and spoiled otherwise,) when they're a new slave and just refused a consensual blow job? My concept is that the slave should not be guiltier than 1 (or 2 randomly maybe?) more than the maximum fear that they've experienced. Thus that could ramp up quickly, but just starting out with torture doesn't give much of a realistic progression.

Guilt does seem to be somewhat random at the moment. I'm not sure about linking it to fear, at least not without other changes to the obedience formula, since currently building up high fear early is a viable tactic for compelling obedience. Capping guilt at first and only letting it reach the higher levels after some kind of progression does sound good. Needs more thought.

2) Spoiling is surprisingly persistent if you don't nip it in the bud, even with a slave that's punished appropriately and harshly on regular occasions, and "put in place" isn't viable. The game does need challenge, so it shouldn't be press one button to win, but at the same time, it doesn't seem like horrific consequences are as effective on a spoiled brat as they should be.

You might be doing something unintentionally that is causing spoiling to build up:
1. Not having at least 3 rules enabled overnight ('force rules' counts as an enabled rule).
2. Ending the day with unpunished guilt
3. Feeding a non-devoted slave your leftovers
4. Feeding a non-devoted slave fresh food
5. Letting a non-devoted slave sleep in your bed or in a boudoir
6. Rewarding a slave more than twice in the same day
7. Ending the day with a slave in very good mood with 4 or 5 stars of energy (only on master_ia branch)

What do you mean "put in place" isn't viable? Currently, spoil decreases overnight as a function of fear, devotion and angst/despair. So punishments indirectly work to lower spoil by building up fear or angst.

(And I get depression is, too... but I see that as the thing which prevents just pure punishment from being too effective, which would take any kind of challenge out of the game, but I have some ideas to improve the system beyond exploiting quirks like items for happiness and so on, and employing more consistent psychologically valid approaches. I like the stockholm vs. mindbroken dynamic but its a bit of a mess at the moment.)

Depression is what?

3) One of the most important things with operant conditioning is consistency, adaptive punishments (a punishing/reward act isn't a punishment/reward technically, if it doesn't alter behavior) so escalating threats/promises with follow through of associated punishments/rewards should result in a graduated measure of punishment_consistency and reward_consistency, which is how much a slave trusts whether a master will follow through on threats and promises, and that their refusals/agreements have consequences (this is already partially in place with obedience/fear/mood/taming but operant conditioning has a concept of frequency and regularity of punishment and reward effecting behavior. I think these two consistency stats would allow a more appropriate forced type of communication of how slavery works, even when the slave is uncooperative.)

There is already tracking of whether threats and promises are fulfilled, but the impacts are one-time-only. Expanding this would be interesting.

4) Incredibly aversive acts for the slave should have slaves begging for the slaver to not do those things, unprovoked -- provided that punishments are consistent with guilt (And there could be multiple cognitive behavioral messaging options in response. I.E. Glass half empty "I'm doing this because you refused to do what I want," or Glass half full "If you don't do what I want."

There is already a mechanism for slaves to outright refuse certain actions (and in some cases even try to fight the master), but the obedience/refusal thresholds are not systematically set, so orders that you intuitively expect a slave to refuse are still followed. This is definitely an area that I want to improve.

5) Are imprisonment and isolation mechanics clear and do they make sense? They're not explored on the wiki.

Imprisonment is treated as another form of punishment. You can put a guilty slave in the dungeon overnight as an alternative to punishing them in other ways. Their guilt the next day will be reduced to 1, or cleared, depending on whether they broke rules the previous day. Being in the dungeon overnight has other impacts, such as stamina drain, and angst / awareness / habit / fear gain, depending on the slave's attitude towards confinement/deprivation (a slave that enjoys deprivation actually will become less afraid). Looking at the code, it seems the intention was to use confinement as a punishment for guilt 3, 4 or 5, as the angst increase only occurs if guilt is low (0 or 1 or 2).

 

[Lokplart]

Are the inteface/UI implementation in the qsp, or the json or both?

Interface is done only in QSP and is made with HTML+CSS. The game is basically a web browser when it comes to visual stuff.

 

[utterlyjunky]

To nuance everything beforehand, I think we'll agree that there are no laws in psychology.

Operant Conditioning was first practiced back in the 1930's by a guy called B.F. Skinner, and there have been more than six decades of empirical scientific study since then. If these techniques weren't effective on humans then we wouldn't have Facebook, Popcap Games, Loot Boxes, Microtransactions, Slot Machines/other Gambling, Prisons and about about a thousand other situations where operant conditioning has been operationalized in a systematic way to control and direct human behavior.

I don't remember having seen a slave that get 5 degrees of guilt at the first disobedience. It's usually 1 or 2 at the beginning.

I just checked the code, and I suggested, sin_potential is in the code. is a flat number set by the task, and doesn't escalate by the character. It can be less (there is a random component,) but if you start with extremely repulsive acts to start with, the code appears to allow max guilt reactions.


---

After seeing the code I can understand why it's a bit slow going to update. There is some stuff that I'd like to help refactoring (rewriting to make it clearer and more efficient.) The lack of code documentation anywhere is a problem with maintenance (and I understand that I'm a newcomer, and completely respect the work everyone has put in, but I'd be willing to help document functions and reorganize it, rather than just complaining.) When I help, I'll start by asking a bunch of questions to map out execution flow. I think a separate doc to help centralize how things are organized would help, and then individual functions and IF statements can get documented bit by bit. We can also have sections which discuss which variables effect which elements of the code, and what and precisely where they are changed and checked, in that central documentation, too.

 

[utterlyjunky]

If you want to help, by all means. Take a look at what I've been doing on the master_ia branch for a start, and share your thoughts or propose a project that you want to work on.

I assume you mean the main branch in the 2.2 development thread (from the git?)

The first thing I want to do is start to document it, both at function/individual IF statement level, and -most of all- to reverse engineer a central design document. There is plenty to work on, and refactor, but the utter lack of organization is enough to give you a headache (I'm used to complicated projects, but since we're not using object encapsulation to make readable code, its silly to not document it.) There are just some sloppy things that I'm sure no one cared to fix like hard coded numbers instead of named consts to identify actions and things. Just the first glance of the code feels like a massive confusing suburbia without a map, right now, and it really doesn't need to be that way.

The first thing I want to do is to map the locations (displayed or logical) to map execution flow. Then I'll provide descriptions for the variables which don't have completely transparent naming. Doing that will not only help everyone but I'll know the ins and outs so I can provide an informed plan to improve some of the underlying psychological algorithms.

After that's done, I'll start to work on -or help with- bug hunting. refactoring and new functionality.

 

[qwertyu12359]

Operant Conditioning was first practiced back in the 1930's by a guy called B.F. Skinner, and there have been more than six decades of empirical scientific study since then. If these techniques weren't effective on humans then we wouldn't have Facebook, Popcap Games, Loot Boxes, Microtransactions, Slot Machines/other Gambling, Prisons and about about a thousand other situations where operant conditioning has been operationalized in a systematic way to control and direct human behavior.

But I see no psychology section in the Wikipedia article of

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. Granted, it's a bit surprising; the definition seems to encompass what you're saying: "statements, based on repeated experiments or observations, that describe or predict a range of natural phenomena". But I have two hypothesis for that. Either human sciences are excluded from the get go on principle that they are not "natural" but otherwise they could be there, or, there's a good reason for that.

If we go with my second hypothesis, we can see immediate elements of answers in your exemple. Science is not grammar, you cannot make a law that accounts for exceptions with the same given conditions (or I got thermodynamics wrong). Hence why you cannot use Facebook and Loot Boxes to state that it proves a law; some people simply don't use Facebook. Not only there are exceptions to the rule, but if we go with your exemple, the rule seems to actually be the exception:

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.

Add to that, the fact that

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, and you get at best a law-giving science in a

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.

Now, let's scratch all of that for the sake of argument.

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. For exemple, Newton's laws were "verified by experiment and observation for over 200 years". And yet it's "inappropriate for very small scales, at very high speeds, or in very strong gravitational fields (semiconductor, optical properties of substances, errors in non-relativistically corrected GPS systems and superconductivity)". Now can gravity work the same in JONT's universe? I say more or less. Can psychology work the same in JONT's conditions? ... more or less-er.

But in spite of everything I've written above, I still consider psychology to be the most rigorous tool to describe and predict human behavior. But that's what it is, a rigorous tool. Not a magical predictor that will give us laws of human nature on tablet of stones.

 

[Imperator_Augustus_Verus]

I assume you mean the main branch in the 2.2 development thread (from the git?)

The first thing I want to do is start to document it, both at function/individual IF statement level, and -most of all- to reverse engineer a central design document. There is plenty to work on, and refactor, but the utter lack of organization is enough to give you a headache (I'm used to complicated projects, but since we're not using object encapsulation to make readable code, its silly to not document it.) There are just some sloppy things that I'm sure no one cared to fix like hard coded numbers instead of named consts to identify actions and things. Just the first glance of the code feels like a massive confusing suburbia without a map, right now, and it really doesn't need to be that way.

The first thing I want to do is to map the locations (displayed or logical) to map execution flow. Then I'll provide descriptions for the variables which don't have completely transparent naming. Doing that will not only help everyone but I'll know the ins and outs so I can provide an informed plan to improve some of the underlying psychological algorithms.

After that's done, I'll start to work on -or help with- bug hunting. refactoring and new functionality.

I've created a quasi-object model on the

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branch. Look in the file named #static_base.qsrc. Currently it's just for slave instances (slave, assistant, etc.) but I intend to extend it more broadly. Feedback on the approach would be welcome.

So far on the WIP branch, I've ripped out massive amounts of copy/pasted code, replaced them with consolidated/dynamic functions, globally renamed variables for clarity (and removed many unnecessary globals), added comments to document execution flow, etc. The codebase is full of haphazard "patches" conflicting with each other, which my refactoring has been surfacing and cleaning up. I've mostly kept the execution flow the same, but I've moved some things around.

Along with refactoring and cleanup, I am implementing tweaks, changes, call them what you will ... revising the game in directions that I and the other devs believe will enhance gameplay. At the moment I'm working through the interactions, and I soon will be committing an overhaul of that code, which will (among other things) replace the static values for sin_potential with formula-based guilt ranges, inspired in part by your earlier comments (for now I'm using rational awareness of slavery instead of fear as the primary progression metric).

In short, documenting branches other than master_ia will give you an understanding of the legacy codebase but if you want to see where it is going then you need to look at my WIP branch. 2.3 will be very different internally.

 

[forgetandeatcake]

A couple of questions about the game.
Is there guides on how to start with more difficult characters? I tried to start with the teacher, but end up running out of money.

What are the objectives? I know that there is the special items that you can get by delivering slaves/monsters to people in the central area, but what other things can you do? Other than endlessly gain money and rep.

Any help would be great

 

[qwertyu12359]

A couple of questions about the game.
Is there guides on how to start with more difficult characters? I tried to start with the teacher, but end up running out of money.

What are the objectives? I know that there is the special items that you can get by delivering slaves/monsters to people in the central area, but what other things can you do? Other than endlessly gain money and rep.

Any help would be great

1) There's a guide in the wiki of the game, main page, on how to become Patrician with the Nerd on Hard (if I remember well)

2) The main objective is to become Patrician. The panacea is selling a slave to the pope.

 

[Imperator_Augustus_Verus]

You can become a patrician by gaining enough reputation with any of the factions, actually. Check the diary tab in the master's stats screen (after clicking the master's portrait).

We have ideas for more "end-game" objectives, but essentially they stem from the concept that you would want to increase your influence/power after achieving security and no longer worrying about starvation/bankruptcy. Hence, pivoting from focusing on slaves as a source of money to live on towards more of an intrigue/politics game with specialized slave training as a method for achieving other goals. (Ideally, slave training remains the core gameplay loop as far as we can stretch it.)

Pure power fantasy is also an endgame path to be explored: living peacefully with your waifu harem of devoted slaves, possibly with pregnancy and rapid-grown children and associated fetishes, expanding the sex-sim aspects of the game.

The darker undertones of the setting, however, do tend to favor serializing the intrigue/politics before the happy-ever-after. (There are always assassins if you are too successful, after all. Rival slavers are not necessarily your friends.)

 

[utterlyjunky]

I've created a quasi-object model on the

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branch. Look in the file named #static_base.qsrc. Currently it's just for slave instances (slave, assistant, etc.) but I intend to extend it more broadly. Feedback on the approach would be welcome.

Very cool, I was thinking of going in a very similar direction in a refactor (and exposing some of the logic or at least difficulty settings by dynamic interpretation, for rapid prototyping...but that's a discussion for a different day.) I have some more implementation thoughts for the code (especially naming conventions,) but this feels really "inside baseball" for a general audience, and I'll save those for group or just regular email.

---

Speaking of endgame or game phase progression, the barn/milking is great and all, but I was thinking of brothel management too (although a private members club type thing, so the PC isn't competing per se with the actual brothel.) I figure we can cut out some of the busywork resident turnins, and balance cashflow a bit earlier, so there is less need for contract slave spam. I'm thinking about some spark sinks too: other than living standards, perhaps some parts of the training game could be accelerated by cash expenditure beyond just outfits etc. so you can speed through some of the more tedious parts... perhaps different (super++) levels of tutors, gyms etc. or something?

Anyway, my basic thought is that the money side of the game isn't completely tuned, and it has an issue where when you get over an initial hump it becomes less and less meaningful. Also, I think it was a mistake to not require rebuying slave gear/wear (not only from an expense or game difficulty standpoint, but because logically there are going to be size --and illness/hygiene!!-- issues.)

Anyway, thanks again, all.

Edit: Oh, and A macro system not only to change uniforms but to re-buy gear sets and do things like piercing or branding tattoos... provided you've done each specific thing at least once before. Instead of predefined macros these would be user generated ones. I'll do a mockup for the interface on a sketch if there is any interest in it.

 

[forgetandeatcake]

1) There's a guide in the wiki of the game, main page, on how to become Patrician with the Nerd on Hard (if I remember well)

2) The main objective is to become Patrician. The panacea is selling a slave to the pope.

Actually I believe there are some tips but the specific step by step external guide is now a dead link.

(

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(2016-06-13) )


But I did remember seeing a rapid patrician guide somewhere, still... not sure on the wiki.

There is an incomplete guide on the wiki for the rapid patrician, but it's a very strict step by step guide. I was more thinking of a general guide on things to look out for and quick ways of making money in the early game.

Like, early game should I sell the slaves at the auction, or to the people in the houses who want certain slaves? Any cheap items that can help early on? Ect

 

[qwertyu12359]

There is an incomplete guide on the wiki for the rapid patrician, but it's a very strict step by step guide. I was more thinking of a general guide on things to look out for and quick ways of making money in the early game.

Like, early game should I sell the slaves at the auction, or to the people in the houses who want certain slaves? Any cheap items that can help early on? Ect

Well if the guides on the main page of the wiki didn't suit your needs, maybe I can answer the questions you just asked:

- When I begin the game, what I find easy is to train assistants for guild contracts. D+ Rank. Look for slave with high endurance, as endurance is tied to the number of action doable in a day.
- Cheap item, as in almost game breaking is the bull ring. You can get in in the forum. That's just beastly; strongly advised. But it'll be a reward for a good slave, so be sure to be financially capable to withstand such a long slave training.

 

[utterlyjunky]

There is an incomplete guide on the wiki for the rapid patrician, but it's a very strict step by step guide. I was more thinking of a general guide on things to look out for and quick ways of making money in the early game.

Like, early game should I sell the slaves at the auction, or to the people in the houses who want certain slaves? Any cheap items that can help early on? Ect

There are some general types in the tips and tricks, but that guide I mentioned was specific to that max difficulty start (where money is the worst of all.) Essentially having an assistant (if you don't) is necessary to begin with. To do that (provided you have a house rental, preferably one that includes a bathroom --life sucks without a bathroom go to White Town to rent a property if not.)

Go to the Fogs, and you'll go through an encounter (just dialogue) where you get an assistant (Isabella)

When you've gotten that you want to get contracts (in White Town) to train assistants or servants (because other types take way too long at the moment... reload if necessary.) There are a few stats on the slave that could make training difficult, which you want to avoid like min health, or stupid. Quicker is more important than quality, at first. Min-maxing is important early on, but there is no harm in using an easier start to learn the game with less time pressure. You can always do a harder start later on.

 

[0tris]

There is an incomplete guide on the wiki for the rapid patrician, but it's a very strict step by step guide. I was more thinking of a general guide on things to look out for and quick ways of making money in the early game.

Like, early game should I sell the slaves at the auction, or to the people in the houses who want certain slaves? Any cheap items that can help early on? Ect

A while ago I decided to challenge myself to a nerd start without using Isabella and it's possible (without save scumming mind you) albeit somewhat hard and depending on luck.
As there is already a guide on doing max difficulty here are some more general tips:
Aura is key. Get your slaver to a good mood (bath, brothel, massage helps) if you can afford it buy the fashionable clothes and use the Magna Magnifica spell if your aura is not completely overpowering your slave.
The first 1-2 days you'll want to use the Sententia Veritas spell so you can apply heavy punishments for minor offences - humiliation category works best on Nerd/any character who isn't skilled at other types of punishment.
Set enough rules, but don't go too crazy. (humility and bath is enough early on)
At the end of the day, make sure you reward your slave to for the mood bonus (don't reward dates, they won't do much at the start)
Your first slaves on a hard character should always be maids or servants as they are easy and quick to train.
Dont hesitate to use Fairy Dust and Kamra to get more actions out of your day early on, once you've stabilized use it less frequently on your slaver to avoid addiction.
On Nerd difficulty, before you even start training a slave, spend a few weeks in the slums, only go to arena and do sparring, it increases your action points, fighting skill and arguably most important, your aura.

 

[F9Zoney]

I cant download the lol1 patch. Is there a way.?

 

[Lokplart]

I cant download the lol1 patch. Is there a way.?

What link are you trying?
What error are you getting/What's the problem?

 

[F9Zoney]

What link are you trying?
What error are you getting/What's the problem?

I tried the Racaty download because i dont use torrent but racaty tells me every time in chrome the site blocks my download and i dont know why.

 

[Lokplart]

I tried the Racaty download because i dont use torrent but racaty tells me every time in chrome the site blocks my download and i dont know why.

Hmm.. that's weird... I don't have that issue..
Maybe it's a cookie/adblock problem?
If you're on win10, you could try Edge just for the download?

 

[SquareAmlore]

It may be an outdated question. Can changed to provide two or more assistant positions? I don’t want to put them in the refrigerator.