Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.45.0] [Selebus]

[JT17]

The post was updated after the game thread but when using the guide it wasn't showing the part 2 events so looks like it's not updated quite yet or something went wrong.

Yeah the post update part had me confused lol. I'll just wait until it's udated then.

 

[Wafflewaffuru]

Okay, so now that I've played this all the way through... I have a lot to get off my chest...
Don't click this if you haven't played through the update all the way. Seriously.

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[akselx]

Man, i've gotten past the dorm war and still chugging along the content but i feel compelled to come here and bitch about a second element of this game that i feel is yet another example of it getting in the way of itself. The fucking monologues, jesus christ man, every single fucking scene needing an 18 page pretentious philosophical essay from the MC before things actually move on to conversing with the scene's other characters. I'm sick of reading them, they're all vapid and empty, boo hoo, the MC is an unfeeling sex-addict, cool story bro, now can we move on to something actually interesting? No? Another 36 page essay on how the stars make him think about how feelings are dumb, just do the sex and no cares all times? Wow, haven't read that exact same thing 50 million other times in this game...

I hate this game and i cannot stand how i am forced to get through it cause my brain is an asshole that refuses to let go of things unfinished.

Man, I get what you mean, in my case though, I enjoy most of the monologues. Selebus would benefit from trimming them down, though.
And, while I do thing that it's fun to hate-read (hate-watch) things you don't like and that annoy you, I feel like games are different in that regard. Make an effort to quit this game for good, it's not good to torture yourself like that.

I will explain. From the top, he's rinsing and repeating an event - the beach trip - in a time and place that makes no sense. Now while the cast acknowledge the strangeness of this, where much smaller and less unusual things triggered a kind of sensory awareness of the loops (Makoto's headache, Ayane's thoughts of the rooftop, etc) one this huge is flying by completely undetected. While given the generally strange nature of Sel's game world, there should always be some measure of internal consistency involved: if there are no rules whatsoever, then breaking them means nothing.

My guess is that Selebus was too caught up with drawing parallels to with first beach event and how it went for Rin. In face of everything else that is happening there this doesn't feel like a big deal, but I get it. They just went there because they had to. Not very satisfying explanation, if you think about it.

From the last update - the one I have fully played and not been almost aggressively spoiled on, down to screencaps for proof - a few things fired off so suddenly that they could only be called abrupt. Sara's condoms (where have those been? I don't recall ever seeing one in action, so why does she have a Trojan treasure trove just lying around?) sparking up forced conflict with Sana, who by now seems to be a character that cannot drive her own story. There has to be an outside force; her timidity is so overwhelming that it interferes with her own story. That scene in Sara's room felt as though it only existed to force a conflict. It had no impact on Sara herself, only could have happened via contrivance (Sensei has never, once needed to enter that room without her being involved/the reason. But the first time he does, it just so happens that Sana is there, too, and in eyeshot of incriminating evidence that materialized from out of thin air?)

Agree. Also, don't really see a big problem with this.

But that's one thought that worried me for the future. The other - the main thrust, and what I was force-fed - is Rin. She spent literal years pining for Chika, building up the confession, grappling with what was surely rooted in hormones but may have grown to be something more emotionally genuine. The build-up, the tear down, it all meant a lot for her and her relationship with Sensei. For better or worse.
So when along comes Otoha, and immediately Rin is so down bad that it puts to shame the torch she carried for Chika for literal years, it spits on the idea of her burgeoning maturity. She's not growing from that gem of an event on the beach, or the callout in her dorm room; she's repeating the exact same actions with none of the groundwork.

I, again, agree, but in this case I think that might have been the point. We can actually see both Otoha and Chika noticing this (and Otoha verbally acknowledging) and being somewhat uncomfortable with how easy Rin switches. And yes, Rin is not growing (although she's better at confessing now) and I think it's a set up for possible crash and burn.

We see Rin meet Otoha in real time: we are literally there at the instant they learn one another's names. And yet, in spite of this, Rin's ludicrous infatuation is treated as being more real than what she felt for Chika.

Is it? Remember how her brief hook up with Sensei was presented? That seem to be the thing with her. Interestingly, she ignored Otoha's request to promise her that she would be the only possible partner. She's so into her romance that she's not listening to anyone, including subject of her own affection.

Meanwhile we have Otoha "yeah I'm mad uncomfortable here so I'm just gonna walk away" being put up on a pedestal to the extent that Sel rushed Molly's unrequited love - nearly turning her into a bloody rapist in the process - and had Rin, who more than anyone else in the entire game should know to treat the emotionally desperate with care, straight up threaten to rescind her and Molly's friendship over the act of just trying to get her feelings off her chest.

I think it was Sel's attempt at showing that when someone's in Rin's mind, that all she thinks and cares about. It was the same with Sensei at that once scene. She didn't care about Otoha at that moment.
But her callousness was off putting and very on the nose, to the point that I think it's might have been purposefully set up for something we'll explore later. At least I hope.
And I agree about Molly - her plot was rushed. It was properly set up, just rushed. I could see her blowing up at roleplay session, but not assaulting Rin.

That's Rin; that's the girl with the razor, who threw down so hard to help Futaba, who caught perhaps the most genuine case of feelings during that one moment with Sensei (which, as of now, cannot be referenced or followed up on lest it damage the newly-minted actual relationship she is in. Which makes that arc, until matters change, absolutely meaningless.),

That's the point. I recon that's a next big thing for Rin, maneuvering between Sensei's advances and her own frivolousness.

now seen effectively stamping her feet because Molly - someone else she has at least known for some time - cannot measure up to some random apathetic musician who spent most of her events affirming that romance isn't her thing and that she can't deal with Rin's advances. Except she actually can, because silly her - she was interested all along and there's no doubt now. Gosh, can you believe it? How amazing.

Yea, I don't feel as strongly about this as you, but I agree that Otoha's interest in Rin could have been set up better. You forgot to mention that Wakana's overdose came out of nowhere and wasn't foreshadowed at all, but yeah.

I enjoyed this update a lot, even though it somewhat felt like a mid-season finale in drama show, but I guess it is drama show.

 

[alex2011]

Is there a way to start from specified update? Forgot to backup saves when i formatted my disks. Was on 0.15 or 0.16 i think

Nope, the only way to start from somewhere other than the beginning is to load a save.

Man, i've gotten past the dorm war and still chugging along the content but i feel compelled to come here and bitch about a second element of this game that i feel is yet another example of it getting in the way of itself. The fucking monologues, jesus christ man, every single fucking scene needing an 18 page pretentious philosophical essay from the MC before things actually move on to conversing with the scene's other characters. I'm sick of reading them, they're all vapid and empty, boo hoo, the MC is an unfeeling sex-addict, cool story bro, now can we move on to something actually interesting? No? Another 36 page essay on how the stars make him think about how feelings are dumb, just do the sex and no cares all times? Wow, haven't read that exact same thing 50 million other times in this game...

I hate this game and i cannot stand how i am forced to get through it cause my brain is an asshole that refuses to let go of things unfinished.

All vapid and empty, just like player Sensei. If you have a vapid and empty character giving a monologue, said monologue is also going to be vapid and empty. That is by design because that's just how player Sensei is.

I will explain. From the top, he's rinsing and repeating an event - the beach trip - in a time and place that makes no sense. Now while the cast acknowledge the strangeness of this, where much smaller and less unusual things triggered a kind of sensory awareness of the loops (Makoto's headache, Ayane's thoughts of the rooftop, etc) one this huge is flying by completely undetected. While given the generally strange nature of Sel's game world, there should always be some measure of internal consistency involved: if there are no rules whatsoever, then breaking them means nothing.

From the last update - the one I have fully played and not been almost aggressively spoiled on, down to screencaps for proof - a few things fired off so suddenly that they could only be called abrupt. Sara's condoms (where have those been? I don't recall ever seeing one in action, so why does she have a Trojan treasure trove just lying around?) sparking up forced conflict with Sana, who by now seems to be a character that cannot drive her own story. There has to be an outside force; her timidity is so overwhelming that it interferes with her own story. That scene in Sara's room felt as though it only existed to force a conflict. It had no impact on Sara herself, only could have happened via contrivance (Sensei has never, once needed to enter that room without her being involved/the reason. But the first time he does, it just so happens that Sana is there, too, and in eyeshot of incriminating evidence that materialized from out of thin air?)


But that's one thought that worried me for the future. The other - the main thrust, and what I was force-fed - is Rin. She spent literal years pining for Chika, building up the confession, grappling with what was surely rooted in hormones but may have grown to be something more emotionally genuine. The build-up, the tear down, it all meant a lot for her and her relationship with Sensei. For better or worse.

So when along comes Otoha, and immediately Rin is so down bad that it puts to shame the torch she carried for Chika for literal years, it spits on the idea of her burgeoning maturity. She's not growing from that gem of an event on the beach, or the callout in her dorm room; she's repeating the exact same actions with none of the groundwork. We see Rin meet Otoha in real time: we are literally there at the instant they learn one another's names. And yet, in spite of this, Rin's ludicrous infatuation is treated as being more real than what she felt for Chika. Someone she at least knew and understood. Someone who didn't leave her hanging in her dorm room because she valued her too much, rejection and all. Meanwhile we have Otoha "yeah I'm mad uncomfortable here so I'm just gonna walk away" being put up on a pedestal to the extent that Sel rushed Molly's unrequited love - nearly turning her into a bloody rapist in the process - and had Rin, who more than anyone else in the entire game should know to treat the emotionally desperate with care, straight up threaten to rescind her and Molly's friendship over the act of just trying to get her feelings off her chest. That's Rin; that's the girl with the razor, who threw down so hard to help Futaba, who caught perhaps the most genuine case of feelings during that one moment with Sensei (which, as of now, cannot be referenced or followed up on lest it damage the newly-minted actual relationship she is in. Which makes that arc, until matters change, absolutely meaningless.), now seen effectively stamping her feet because Molly - someone else she has at least known for some time - cannot measure up to some random apathetic musician who spent most of her events affirming that romance isn't her thing and that she can't deal with Rin's advances. Except she actually can, because silly her - she was interested all along and there's no doubt now. Gosh, can you believe it? How amazing. Nevermind that a chunk of the class hugged and cried and celebrated this tangle of contrivances (Molly would not be that violent; Rin would not be that cruel; Otoha wouldn't give a shit about romance as we've seen her) while Molly was quite literally left out in the cold with only one friend willing - and unable - to help her. There has been enough groundwork on each of these girls to have a basis to work from. Some idea of who they are, how they act. And in this instant, Sel ignored all of the framework for all 3 of them to simply make things happen. Yes it's the same setup, situation, location and scenario as with Chika. Yes there are ample reasons from both inside and outside the game why it will fail. But that was just to pull a Rian Johnson and subvert expectations, you see? Now those swaths of Rin's arc - the suffering, the cutting, the bond with Sensei, the past with Molly - can all be buried in a ditch, because this end must be achieved.

I have seen amazing work out of Sel before. And this, in its entirety, is a bloody embarrassment. It's forced, it's lazy, and it's malicious. That was why I oof'd.

Again, this is all by design, otherwise the cast wouldn't have acknowledged it. You didn't see Sara's 'stash' because even player Sensei hadn't noticed them. In this game, we are not some external viewer, we ARE player Sensei. We are therefore only able to see what he sees. If he doesn't notice something, we won't notice it. Sana's timidity can't interfere with her story because it IS her story, the whole point of her story is dealing with it. The evidence didn't materialize out of thin air, again, they were always there, but because player Sensei didn't notice, we didn't notice, either. Rin doesn't know how to handle these feelings, so she finds herself repeating what coould be the exact same events she had with Chika all over with Otoha. This is a case of what happens when you don't learn from history, that history being Rin's previous fail in this case. She is setting herself up to fail again. Molly's unrequited love wasn't rushed, it was perfectly timed. It was going to happen regardless at that point, the only thing that changed was what happened at the end of that event prior to learning about Molly in it. Rin's infatuation with Otoha isn't bigger for no reason, she's still feeling the residual effect from her rejection, it hurt her more than what we saw in the events between the beach rejection and falling for Otoha. She's coping and that took the form of her mind latching onto another girl in this case. She didn't know about that emotional desperation, you can't treat what you don't know in a way you don't know it should be treated. By the time she did find out, she was in a position that led to what we saw. It was a case of VERY bad timing to get those feelings out, plus they are young girls, which are typically emotionally volatile to the point the slightest thing can set them off. The arc isn't meaningless, it is still building up to something even greater than what was possible up to that point. You're right, Molly CAN'T measure up because Rin has no feelings for her in any other way than what we knew before. They are friends, no more, no less. Otoha was in a sort of denial, she was afraid of the multiple things that could go wrong, which took the form of not accepting Rin from the start. I can't say for sure exactly when she initially began to realize that what she felt wasn't a lack of feelings since that is never mentioned, we only get the points in time we did, not the in between. There was no framework ignored, Selebus worked off the framework provided by Rin's previous experience with Chika and her issues. There was no subversion of expectations, and Rian Johnson did just fine by the way. Those points in Rin's arc aren't and won't be buried in a ditch, they are what caused all this to happen. Everything that has happened involving Rin has led to this.

Again, there is no issue here, it was all as planned. It wasn't forced, it was built from the very beginning.

Okay, so now that I've played this all the way through... I have a lot to get off my chest...
Don't click this if you haven't played through the update all the way. Seriously.

Spoiler

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Rin's trying to get over Chika at this point because that is the only path forward. There can be no happiness with Chika in the intended way, so Rin must move forward without her for her own sake. We saw what happened, it could literally end in her death if she continues to brood over what has already been said and done. This is Rin's first attempt at love, she doesn't know what to expect or how to go through with it. Sure, she actually went through with a confession, exactly once, but she's still scared and doesn't have any experience with love.

In fact, she's even more scared now BECAUSE she was rejected. I could easily see another heartbreak arc, Rin is making a TON of mistakes in the aftermath in an effort to cope with the lingering feelings for Chika she knows she needs to get over. She is setting herself up to repeat history and that could lead to a VERY bad situation, worse than the rejection from Chika, that hopefully we can get her out of. She is emotionally vulnerable, she doesn't want to mess up anything she has going and Molly is one way she could. She had to put Molly down and hard because it was the only way given how bad Molly had it for her. This is definitely setup for an even greater fall. Nonee of the previous plot was ignored and nothing was rushed, it literally built up to this moment. The way I see it, something VERY bad is going to happen and, for once, we will be the ones to rescue her. That's the impression I get so far.

Yeah, definitely with you on being caught off guard, you really have to watch out with this game because it tends to blindside the player. You're right, there could be a lot we don't know about her depression, the same as we didn't know Rin was self harming in the earlier builds of the game. These things tend to go on in secret until and unless they are discovered by another person. In the case of Rin, that's exactly what happened, we found out she had a history of self harm through her "Delirium" event. This is why I mentioned her lingering feelings being a threat to her own life. Suicide attempts can happen VERY abruptly in real life, especially with depression involved. Actually, if anything, any attempt here so far isn't abrupt enough.

Tsuneyo is definitely underrated, I'm not going to say best girl material, but definitely underrated.

Nodoka was involved, that typically means things are going to get weird in one way or another.

The Maya/Noriko interaction definitely added to the game, can't wait to see more of stuff like that.

It actually wasn't the game update Selebus was talking about when he said it was the best ever, he was talking about the number of incoming patrons. He had the single largest increase in patrons with this update. I've been playing since the very first update and I would definitely not call this second worst nor would calling it that be a bad thing since there hasn't been an update that was just outright bad. All of the updates so far have been above average, yes some weaker than others, but that is just going to happen when the previous update sets an extremely high bar. I am fully in support of 100% of this update as it happened. Selebus doesn't need to find his mojo, he already has it, he always has. I fully expect Rin to end up with player Sensei, eventually. She's scared and she's trying to figure it all out with no experience to fall back on. Given time, and given what has already occurred, she'll come around. Remember that she is admittedly bi with a greater attraction toward girls, we have to wait for that to fully swing in the other direction, which will take time, especially with everything else compounding the issue.

Man, I get what you mean, in my case though, I enjoy most of the monologues. Selebus would benefit from trimming them down, though.
And, while I do thing that it's fun to hate-read (hate-watch) things you don't like and that annoy you, I feel like games are different in that regard. Make an effort to quit this game for good, it's not good to torture yourself like that.

My guess is that Selebus was too caught up with drawing parallels to with first beach event and how it went for Rin. In face of everything else that is happening there this doesn't feel like a big deal, but I get it. They just went there because they had to. Not very satisfying explanation, if you think about it.

Agree. Also, don't really see a big problem with this.

I, again, agree, but in this case I think that might have been the point. We can actually see both Otoha and Chika noticing this (and Otoha verbally acknowledging) and being somewhat uncomfortable with how easy Rin switches. And yes, Rin is not growing (although she's better at confessing now) and I think it's a set up for possible crash and burn.

Is it? Remember how her brief hook up with Sensei was presented? That seem to be the thing with her. Interestingly, she ignored Otoha's request to promise her that she would be the only possible partner. She's so into her romance that she's not listening to anyone, including subject of her own affection.

I think it was Sel's attempt at showing that when someone's in Rin's mind, that all she thinks and cares about. It was the same with Sensei at that once scene. She didn't care about Otoha at that moment.
But her callousness was off putting and very on the nose, to the point that I think it's might have been purposefully set up for something we'll explore later. At least I hope.
And I agree about Molly - her plot was rushed. It was properly set up, just rushed. I could see her blowing up at roleplay session, but not assaulting Rin.

That's the point. I recon that's a next big thing for Rin, maneuvering between Sensei's advances and her own frivolousness.

Yea, I don't feel as strongly about this as you, but I agree that Otoha's interest in Rin could have been set up better. You forgot to mention that Wakana's overdose came out of nowhere and wasn't foreshadowed at all, but yeah.

I enjoyed this update a lot, even though it somewhat felt like a mid-season finale in drama show, but I guess it is drama show.

Definite setup, I'd better get prepared because this one looks like it's going to hit Rin HARD. Rin is definitely the tunnel vision type when it comes to love. I get that, I'm the same actually. This tunnel vision could put her in a VERY dark place and I'm getting a very distinct feeling we get to be the light that guides her out of it, either that or our help will come too late.

 

[alex2011]

Something being planned - if in fact there's any concrete proof that Sel didn't resort to the time honored method of pantsing at least part of this - does not make it good. The Final Solution was planned extensively, you see the point.

This is the first time I've seen any of his cast get forcibly turned back against themselves and made to act in ways that make little to no sense in their own greater picture. Futaba's raging out at the gym was equally sudden, but the groundwork was there. Molly becoming a bad touch leprechaun was just a bad move. Ditto Otoha's suddenly-lesbian mood swing, and Rin's callousness. Planning does not excuse mistakes or poor decisions; it's a non-argument that seems only intended to Royalguard for Sel, as though he needs defending.

Ultimately, if a small time curmudgeon like me struck any chords, now is the time for him to consider why. But no, 'planned', besides being utterly impossible for us to prove as we're not in his head, is no excuse.

Something being good is entirely subjective, subject to every individual here. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't the best he's done, because he set the bar way too freaking high in a previous update, but it is good.

The groundwork is there for ALL of them and things like this are starting to happen because that's what Denpa is. "Familiar people acting in unfamiliar, yet seemingly orchestrated ways" - from VNDB. Things are starting to happen that cannot necessarily, but sometimes can be explained in a way connecting to previous events. There were no mistakes or poor decisions this time, not as good is not poor. The characters are beginning to act in ways that aren't familiar. I get it, the Denpa genre just isn't for everyone, we've run into that on more than a few occasions in this game already.

You're right, it isn't an excuse, there is no excuse being used. It's a reason.

 

[Wafflewaffuru]

Something being planned - if in fact there's any concrete proof that Sel didn't resort to the time honored method of pantsing at least part of this - does not make it good. The Final Solution was planned extensively, you see the point.

This is the first time I've seen any of his cast get forcibly turned back against themselves and made to act in ways that make little to no sense in their own greater picture. Futaba's raging out at the gym was equally sudden, but the groundwork was there. Molly becoming a bad touch leprechaun was just a bad move. Ditto Otoha's suddenly-lesbian mood swing, and Rin's callousness. Planning does not excuse mistakes or poor decisions; it's a non-argument that seems only intended to Royalguard for Sel, as though he needs defending.

Ultimately, if a small time curmudgeon like me struck any chords, now is the time for him to consider why. But no, 'planned', besides being utterly impossible for us to prove as we're not in his head, is no excuse.

Even if it was planned, doesn't make it right, or done well. It still retracts from the buildup of character overall that she'd gone through. It basically renders all the pain and suffering she went through as useless, especially the way she lashed out at Molly. Rin should recognize and understand mania more than anyone else. The desparation and pain she was going through. If anyone from the cast should know and understand those feelings, it's Rin. Literally that entire scene basically undid any character buildup she's had to this point. We're aware she's clinging desperately to Otoha, in the hopes to get over Chika. We know she's love drunk now. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity to be a human being and recognize when someone's at rock bottom, like Sensei has done for her time and time again. Like Futaba has done for her time and time again. All I'm saying is in this instance, Rin was a hypocritical shitty human being. One she swore she'd never be circa beginning of the game Yumi.

Edit: I was agreeing with you btw. I had the "this. All of this." Gif attached but f95 decided to turn it into a jpg.

 

[akselx]

All vapid and empty, just like player Sensei. If you have a vapid and empty character giving a monologue, said monologue is also going to be vapid and empty. That is by design because that's just how player Sensei is.

I feel like you literally brush off any criticism of this game on autopilot.

In this game, we are not some external viewer, we ARE player Sensei. We are therefore only able to see what he sees.

Eh, no, we do see things Sensei isn't supposed to see from time to time.

The evidence didn't materialize out of thin air, again, they were always there,

It did, it was put there by Selebus to set up future conflict. Pitboss see it as way to convinient, i'm fine with it, you seem to just pretend he has no point.

Otoha was in a sort of denial, she was afraid of the multiple things that could go wrong, which took the form of not accepting Rin from the start.

It would have been cool to actually see her processing this. As of now, it's all behind the scenes. I would have to replay her scenes, but it really doesn't feel like Rin was something more than a friend to her.

I can't say for sure exactly when she initially began to realize that what she felt wasn't a lack of feelings since that is never mentioned, we only get the points in time we did, not the in between.

And that's the problem. It's a misstep of Sel's part. It shouldn't be "you feel the blanks", there have to be a set up.

There was no framework ignored, Selebus worked off the framework provided by Rin's previous experience with Chika and her issues.

Yes, it was planned with Rin at its center, to the point where some of the characters went against their own...character, at least against what we've seen of them so far.
As you said, we didn't get to see much of the "in between", what led characters to that point and it's unfortunate.

There was no subversion of expectations, and Rian Johnson did just fine by the way. Those points in Rin's arc aren't and won't be buried in a ditch, they are what caused all this to happen. Everything that has happened involving Rin has led to this.

Rian Johnson aside, this comes of as a "RJ-style subversion" because we didn't get to see Otoha developing feelings for Rin, hence "subversion for the sake of subversion". You're completely ignoring Otoha side of equation and rationalising gaps in plot left by Sel.

Sel is an amazing writer and game designer, but he's not infallible.

This update was one of my favorite, but it have its issues.

 

[Bingoogus]

Make an effort to quit this game for good, it's not good to torture yourself like that.

I'm just not capable of it unfortunately, when my little pony became a thing and the internet was going on about it i sussed it out out of curiosity, stupid fucking decision cause i got trapped watching that shit for nearly a decade cause my stupid brain needed to "know what happens next/how it ends".

I might hate this game, but i don't hate all of it, in fact, i'd say the hate i have for it is so strong because i WANT to access the parts i don't hate and the shit parts keep getting in the way of that. There's a pretty solid VN if you cut down the 4th wall breaks, internal monologues and 'happy' content by like 90%. If that was the game, i'd probably be singing it praises.

 

[akselx]

I'm just not capable of it unfortunately, when my little pony became a thing and the internet was going on about it i sussed it out out of curiosity, stupid fucking decision cause i got trapped watching that shit for nearly a decade cause my stupid brain needed to "know what happens next/how it ends".

I might hate this game, but i don't hate all of it, in fact, i'd say the hate i have for it is so strong because i WANT to access the parts i don't hate and the shit parts keep getting in the way of that. There's a pretty solid VN if you cut down the 4th wall breaks, internal monologues and 'happy' content by like 90%. If that was the game, i'd probably be singing it praises.

Fair enough. I guess I'm lucky I have almost no problem with almost none of the things you criticize, so I can just enjoy myself playing it. Maybe music does it for me, smoothing things over, I don't know.

 

[Essecks]

I'm gonna have to broadly agree with the criticisms regarding the update. I think some people are taking it WAY too personally, to the point where it seems downright unhealthy to be that worked up over an update for an adult game, but since this game's writing IS its strongest point by far, it seems fair to be critical when it doesn't feel like it's quite up to par. Almost all of the character conflicts in this update felt, well, out of character. And coming from some long-established characters, there's a lot less room for there to be "more going on beneath the surface" that led up to their actions, because we've already seen those moments before and the way characters were acting in this update was completely out of line even with their previous behavior when pushed into lashing out or breaking down.

I might hate this game, but i don't hate all of it, in fact, i'd say the hate i have for it is so strong because i WANT to access the parts i don't hate and the shit parts keep getting in the way of that. There's a pretty solid VN if you cut down the 4th wall breaks, internal monologues and 'happy' content by like 90%. If that was the game, i'd probably be singing it praises.

I'm'a be real, homie. You're basically saying "Doki Doki Literature Club would be an amazing romance VN if not for all of the psychological horror and meta-fiction". You are talking about a completely different game and completely missing the point of the one you're playing.

 

[Bingoogus]

I'm'a be real, homie. You're basically saying "Doki Doki Literature Club would be an amazing romance VN if not for all of the psychological horror and meta-fiction". You are talking about a completely different game and completely missing the point of the one you're playing.

Actually, DDLC is the one thing in this genre i have no problem with, it was free, not that long, original as far as i'm aware and its bait and switch element was something that got progressively worse as its rather short story went on, rather than being almost evenly distributed every 16 frames like this game is. The entire game changed into its second form as it went on, but in this one, its like two games fighting each other for screen time, committed to neither.

Anyway, i'm done discussing the minutia of this, any longer and things risk getting flamey and that's really not something i want, i have my experience with the game, you have yours, i've vented, you've retorted, praise be.

 

[alex2011]

Even if it was planned, doesn't make it right, or done well. It still retracts from the buildup of character overall that she'd gone through. It basically renders all the pain and suffering she went through as useless, especially the way she lashed out at Molly. Rin should recognize and understand mania more than anyone else. The desparation and pain she was going through. If anyone from the cast should know and understand those feelings, it's Rin. Literally that entire scene basically undid any character buildup she's had to this point. We're aware she's clinging desperately to Otoha, in the hopes to get over Chika. We know she's love drunk now. That doesn't mean she doesn't have the capacity to be a human being and recognize when someone's at rock bottom, like Sensei has done for her time and time again. Like Futaba has done for her time and time again. All I'm saying is in this instance, Rin was a hypocritical shitty human being. One she swore she'd never be circa beginning of the game Yumi.

Edit: I was agreeing with you btw. I had the "this. All of this." Gif attached but f95 decided to turn it into a jpg. View attachment 1436330

It doesn't detract from that buildup to use it to create a repeat because a character didn't learn the lesson the first time. There's a saying in real life that very much applies to situations in games where someone gets out of a terrible situation just to repeat what put them in that situation in the first place. Everything she went through built up to this, she's setting herself up for more heartbreak, worse heartbreak. She lashed out because Molly was becoming a disruption to her attempt at romance, she has been shown to be very single-minded in love, hence why she fell so hard for Chika and why she was so affected by being rejected. Any attempt to disrupt her attempt at romance is running a good risk of being be met with hostility because she is so focused on her crush at the time, Otoha in this case. She may understand it, but that tunnel vision didn't allow her to see it in Molly. It didn't undo any buildup of Rin's character, what it did was add an aspect we weren't aware of, an aspect that actually makes previous events based around her attempt with Chika much clearer as to why she was so badly affected when Chika shot her down. She does have the capacity to be a human being, however, that capacity is blocked off by her tunnel vision if and when she is actively in an attempt to get with someone, meaning she would not have acted this way without her attempt at Otoha. It was definitely a shitty thing to do, I am absolutely not defending her on that, but that tunnel vision she was and is experiencing is affecting her ability to not be that way. I would hate to see what happens if player Sensei intervenes later as a result of the Molly confrontation. She'll turn on him faster than he could say oops and then we're really in a bind unless she is made to realize what she's doing. Her judgement is so clouded that it's actually kind of scary.

Hard agree. It fucked with me to learn all this because Rin has always been my favorite member of the cast. Even before any of her romantic entanglements; so to see her get 180'd this fucking hard and rapidly just for the sake of beating the hell out of one of the overall meekest and most pitiable cast members because "Gotta get my Avril Lavigne GF tho" left a foul taste in my mouth. If this is how she is "planned" to be, I don't wanna see the bint in future updates.

She still is mine. She didn't get 180ed, she has clouded judgement, a sort of tunnel vision because she has fallen for Otoha, which manifested out of a desperation to get over Chika and that is why she has it so bad now that Molly got hurt. She had a lapse in judgement and ultimately one of the girls got hurt, Molly. She'll learn, but it will take time, it isn't going to happen immediately. That's probably the biggest lesson she needs to learn about love, don't let your feelings cloud your judgement. If a love interest is making you fall so hard other people are getting hurt, she isn't worth it.

I feel like you literally brush off any criticism of this game on autopilot.

Eh, no, we do see things Sensei isn't supposed to see from time to time.

It did, it was put there by Selebus to set up future conflict. Pitboss see it as way to convinient, i'm fine with it, you seem to just pretend he has no point.

It would have been cool to actually see her processing this. As of now, it's all behind the scenes. I would have to replay her scenes, but it really doesn't feel like Rin was something more than a friend to her.

And that's the problem. It's a misstep of Sel's part. It shouldn't be "you feel the blanks", there have to be a set up.

Yes, it was planned with Rin at its center, to the point where some of the characters went against their own...character, at least against what we've seen of them so far.
As you said, we didn't get to see much of the "in between", what led characters to that point and it's unfortunate.

Rian Johnson aside, this comes of as a "RJ-style subversion" because we didn't get to see Otoha developing feelings for Rin, hence "subversion for the sake of subversion". You're completely ignoring Otoha side of equation and rationalising gaps in plot left by Sel.

Sel is an amazing writer and game designer, but he's not infallible.

This update was one of my favorite, but it have its issues.

No, no I do not. I WILL call out anything that is actually valid.

Occasionally, not all the time, the majority of the time, including that one, was written with his point of view in mind, which means we don't see what he doesn't.

It did not, we just now noticed it since player Sensei just now noticed it. If the scenes before had been in an outside point of view, we would already know.

For Otoha, it seems that way because she doesn't want certain things to happen. Her family is one of the issues, remember how strict they are with her, though we've only ever seen that from Otoha's side of any time they come into play. I don't have a completely clear picture of the dynamic going on behind the scenes in her personal life, but it sounds like they would not be accepting of such a relationship. There are some other issues, but that is the biggest right there.

It isn't a misstep, again, we aren't watching from Otoha's point of view or an outside point of view in this case, we are in the point of view of player Sensei. We don't even know what's going on on the other side, Rin's side, behind the scenes because of that.

Here's part of where the genre comes in, familiar characters are starting to act in unfamiliar ways. Rin blew up at Molly, which is not something we would have expected from Rin.

We didn't really need to see it for the reason above. We were used to her being weirded out by Rin's advances, we weren't expecting anything different, but she is starting to act in a way we are not familiar with.

Selebus is definitely not infallible, otherwise his updates would not have ANY ups and downs. They have had some, but not so much as to call any particular update bad or anything like that, not to say anyone did. If he was infallible, his updates would be utterly perfect, but that's just not possible.

I'm just not capable of it unfortunately, when my little pony became a thing and the internet was going on about it i sussed it out out of curiosity, stupid fucking decision cause i got trapped watching that shit for nearly a decade cause my stupid brain needed to "know what happens next/how it ends".

I might hate this game, but i don't hate all of it, in fact, i'd say the hate i have for it is so strong because i WANT to access the parts i don't hate and the shit parts keep getting in the way of that. There's a pretty solid VN if you cut down the 4th wall breaks, internal monologues and 'happy' content by like 90%. If that was the game, i'd probably be singing it praises.

The problem in your suggestion lies in the 'happy' content part, that's literally the main story of the game. It is what is going on under the surface, hidden from the cast until shit hits the fan. I actually enjoy the occasional 4th wall breaks and internal monologues, kind of gives it a "House of Cards" feel from back when Spacey was in the show.

I'm gonna have to broadly agree with the criticisms regarding the update. I think some people are taking it WAY too personally, to the point where it seems downright unhealthy to be that worked up over an update for an adult game, but since this game's writing IS its strongest point by far, it seems fair to be critical when it doesn't feel like it's quite up to par. Almost all of the character conflicts in this update felt, well, out of character. And coming from some long-established characters, there's a lot less room for there to be "more going on beneath the surface" that led up to their actions, because we've already seen those moments before and the way characters were acting in this update was completely out of line even with their previous behavior when pushed into lashing out or breaking down.



I'm'a be real, homie. You're basically saying "Doki Doki Literature Club would be an amazing romance VN if not for all of the psychological horror and meta-fiction". You are talking about a completely different game and completely missing the point of the one you're playing.

The Denpa genre does that, typically. Familiar characters acting in unfamiliar ways. We aren't used to Rin getting all aggressively defensive or blowing up at someone who is easily one of her closest friends, but she is acting in an unfamiliar way.

I have to agree on that reply part, the Denpa genre IS a horror subgenre after all. This and DDLC would not be anywhere near what they are without the 'happy' content.

 

[brknsoul]

Is it really wrong if a small (like, really tiny) part of me wants to get with Otoha and totally break Rin? ;-)

 

[Luizodia]

I've been playing the game for some time and I'm really curious about something... Will we be able to have sex with all the characters at some point, or some of them are there just for the plot's sake?

 

[alex2011]

Is it really wrong if a small (like, really tiny) part of me wants to get with Otoha and totally break Rin? ;-)

Normally, I'd be the same. With this game, my thought process is anything but normal. I tried, but I couldn't bring myself to not care enough to bring myself to hurt her in some way, whether directly or otherwise. Normally, that whole Miku incident, I would support it because that's pretty close to one of my content types, forced actions such as rape, mind control where the girl is more like a spectator to the actions of her own body, or coercion. However, again, I find myself disgusted and even outright enraged at player Sensei for getting anywhere close to doing any of those things. This game does things, weird things, to my ability to treat it as entirely fictional.

I've been playing the game for some time and I'm really curious about something... Will we be able to have sex with all the characters at some point, or some of them are there just for the plot's sake?

Officially all but Chinami for obvious reasons last I checked, but the plot comes first, so each waits until they would actually be ready to go through with it in the story.

 

[barglenarglezous]

I have a pink event for Chika and Makoto, but never had any additional events for Miku since I loaded 19.0 Part 2. Should I?

Brain fart, meant Kirin, not Miku.

 

[barglenarglezous]

Okay, so now that I've played this all the way through... I have a lot to get off my chest...
Don't click this if you haven't played through the update all the way. Seriously.

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Some perspective on this

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===============================================================================

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Note: Real talk about unfun stuff to follow

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[seamanq]

Brain fart, meant Kirin, not Miku.

I have all three, but the Beach episode is still not triggering. This is one of the maddening aspects of this game.

 

[barglenarglezous]

Officially all but Chinami for obvious reasons last I checked, but the plot comes first, so each waits until they would actually be ready to go through with it in the story.

And presumably Tsukasa as well, who wasn't excluded when Selebus answered the question, but also didn't exist yet.

 

[JohnnyRazer]

Read through the last pages and I think I have something to add to the discussion.

I partly agree that some events seemed rushed or somewhat out of character, but I have some kind of explanation to this (though I'm not sure it's exactly the case here).

The thing is, the game world is breaking apart. In some cases slower, in some faster, but everything around Sensei is crumbling down, including himself. I don't know how to describe it, but look at Kirin, look at Ami, at Makoto (who's already gone past breaking point and reverted). Some of the girls are stronger and resist, some are weak and succumb faster.

As alex said about Denpa genre - "Familiar characters acting in unfamiliar ways.". I would rephrase it as something like "Familiar characters starting to manifest their worst traits and take them to the limit".
I know it's a slippery slope and may seem like an excuse for bad writing, but that's how I understand what's going on - the world is breaking and that's leading to all kind of weird and uncharacteristic shit snowballing faster and faster as the story progresses.