Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.47.0] [Selebus]

[DeSkel15]

I think people are ascribing too much agency to Maya in her relationship with Sensei. She was seven years old, I'm going to need a whole mound of compelling direct evidence before I believe that she was the instigator or driver of a sexual relationship with an adult, and even then the first assumption should be that she was groomed into it. I think, if anything, the scarf story even points against it. It was Sensei that fingered her, all she did was confess her love (again, the love of a seven-year-old).

I don't have an explanation for Noriko's story, but I'm not convinced that it's Maya that she saw. According to the pact they made as kids, Maya can't go to the old district, yet both of them seem to agree that it was Noriko who broke the pact in the present day. If Noriko saw Maya in the old district, surely she would bring that up.

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As a side note, I still don't understand what Noriko was supposed to get out of that pact. Even if she was a kid and didn't understand the implications, she must have agreed to it for a reason.

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I don't think Maya kissing him in public makes much sense. It's not like the old and new districts are completely separate worlds. If he's at risk of being recognized and unmasked in the old district, that risk would still exist elsewhere in the city even if it's less.

New Maya mentioning the police came across to me as a sex kink thing, since Sensei gets off on how taboo his relationships are. I don't think there was any indication that it was an actual threat or that she had threatened it before.

As this thread's resident Noriko hater, I feel obligated to push back on some of this. To start with, Noriko is not an objective source when it comes to Maya. Her feelings towards her are all kinds of confused, but they include jealousy and bearing a grudge over the past.

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More importantly, there's a lot of stuff that Noriko doesn't know about. She doesn't know about Sensei's relationship with Sekai, which was probably a big impetus for why he had to leave the old district. She doesn't know anything about what happened between when he left and when she joined the class. She sees that he's even more broken now than she remembers, so she blames Maya for that, but up until whatever triggered the resets, it seems like he had actually improved significantly outside of having an underage girlfriend.

In context, what she actually blames Maya for is not fixing him, but she doesn't know that the resets made that impossible.

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Maya isn't responsible for Sensei ghosting Niki, that happened immediately after the accident when he holed up in his house with Ami. After he started improving and leaving the house, he still chose to avoid her. Even Noriko doesn't blame Maya for him abandoning them the first time.

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It's reasonable to argue that Sensei would have eventually let Niki back into his life if Maya didn't push him away, but there isn't any evidence that he was considering it. I think it's telling that Sensei never talked about the Nakayamas with Ami.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that Maya was guilty of was pushing Sensei to leave Noriko and the old district behind. Even then, she thinks she had a good reason for it, though I'm sure her selfishness and jealousy played a large part.

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It's also worth pointing out that we still have no idea why Maya hates Noriko so much, and Noriko clearly doesn't know either since she thinks it's for loving Sensei, which she realizes makes no sense.

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I can't see Maya Prime maintaining this hatred for thousands of years unless either: 1. Noriko has been showing up during resets (and Maya lied about it). or 2. Maya blames her for some aspect of Sensei's present condition.

I'd actually argue that this is the only reason that we have direct evidence for. Sekai and Pareidolia view Sensei being broken as his true self, and they want him to return to that and become the Collector. Maya Prime was pushing him in the opposite direction, trying to get him to care about the girls. When Pareidolia talks about Maya grooming Sensei, he's referring to what she's done during the resets, not to their sexual relationship.

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Sensei likely wasn't allowed to bring up the Nakayamas. Maya seemed to make it part of their relationship, at least when it came to Niki:

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The Nakayamas plus Sekai seemed to be the only three people Maya was jealous of:

Spoiler

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And were likely treated as taboo to even think about within their relationship since the start.

If Sensei's selective "amnesia" wasn't already a thing by that time, he simply wasn't allowed to mention the Nakayamas and definitely wouldn't be allowed to make them part of Ami's life.

Noriko also specifically blames Maya for making Sensei think he's all alone:

Spoiler

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And we know that even Maya Prime, after possibly millions of years from her perspective, was still hiding Noriko from him.

When it comes to Noriko and Maya, it really does just seem to come down to Maya's jealousy and obsessiveness. Even if she's trying to justify it. (Although, I have wondered if Maya thought that Noriko was the wizard he truly wanted, but held himself back due to "love" and fear. Him seeing Tsukasa as wizard Noriko is...interesting. I don't think Maya would have liked being called "Noriko" when they were messing around, or at all.)

Also keep in mind that Noriko, even after everything, still cares about Maya:

Spoiler

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She's not aware of everything, but it's not like she's trying to slander Maya, when she's connecting the dots.

There's definitely more to the Maya/Niki stuff though, as Niki seemed to recognize Maya:

Spoiler

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But we probably won't know what, until Maya finds out that she's moving in and the real drama starts. Still probably just comes down to jealousy, and Maya Prime was notably the most jealous of Niki according to the Chapter 3 'Untitled' Main Event.

Don't get me wrong though. Even if Maya instigated this relationship, it is still Sensei who's to blame for it's existence and it being sexual. His weakness does not and will not excuse his actions as far as I'm concerned.
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As for who Noriko saw with Sensei in the Old District: I'm thinking it may have been Ami on a day they went to visit Sekai's grave or her old house in the Old District. Something along those lines.

It kind of has to be either Ami or Maya, and it definitely doesn't fit Maya, after the pact was revealed, but something made him feel something he didn't like remembering based off him hallucinating.

Edit: Also Pareidolia is bringing up Sekai (probably), Maya, and Sensei's Parents in that Chapter 4 'The Collector' Main Event. It only referring to what happened in the Resets seems unlikely.

 

[Bingoogus]

When it comes to Noriko and Maya, it really does just seem to come down to Maya's jealousy and obsessiveness. Even if she's trying to justify it. (Although, I have wondered if Maya thought that Noriko was the wizard he truly wanted, but held himself back due to "love" and fear. Him seeing Tsukasa as wizard Noriko is...interesting. I don't think Maya would have liked being called "Noriko" when they were messing around, or at all.)

I was pretty sure i'd made this observation in the past and wanted to bring it up again but being reluctant to repeat myself i was keen to wait for someone else to get close to it to justify my rementioning it, but you did me one better and just stated it outright . It did stand out to me how their roles seemed reversed, just something about it was... off.

 

[barglenarglezous]

I'm honestly of a mind to say that whenever any given character is speaking about another character's past or motives, to assume the speaker is unreliable. Bias and agendas are abundant here, and just because a character says something (even when well-intentioned) doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking about. Especially where the memory of children is involved.

 

[Moonflare]

I'm honestly of a mind to say that whenever any given character is speaking about another character's past or motives, to assume the speaker is unreliable. Bias and agendas are abundant here, and just because a character says something (even when well-intentioned) doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking about. Especially where the memory of children is involved.

I agree to an extent, but there is a danger in this sort of story where so much is already unreliable to make your reader view things people straight up reveal as unreliable as well. One might end up falling into a sort of solipsism of meaning where you can only trust what you see, but since Akira isn't realiable either then there's no meaning to be found anywhere.

I'd go with assuming people having an agenda and biases to what they say, rather than straight up lying (unless it's hinted that they are). For instance, I don't think Noriko lied once about what she said about the past/Maya. Whereas I know for sure Maya lied a lot, and might have hid even more information.

There is a final piece to this in that they're not real people. Selebus chose to tell his story through unreliable means, but on the same token, all characters are mediums to one single narrator which is himself - so all of them know what they're talking about when he wishes them to know what they're talking about - in order to convey to the reader another fragment of the lore when it's appropriate. I personally haven't found much misinformation that was conveyed through characters about other characters that I recall (not ones that weren't apparent they're just guesses from the start at least).

 

[DeSkel15]

I'm honestly of a mind to say that whenever any given character is speaking about another character's past or motives, to assume the speaker is unreliable. Bias and agendas are abundant here, and just because a character says something (even when well-intentioned) doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking about. Especially where the memory of children is involved.

The way I see it is that whenever any given character or narrator is speaking about anyone's past or motives, including their own, it's inherently unreliable by itself.

Context is what matters most, especially in a fictional setting where memories, perceptions, personalities, and time are all seemingly altered as a part of the story, and certain characters are known for lying, hiding things, or simply being wrong, anyway.

Everything seems unreliable, so the main focus should be on what seems the least unreliable.

Spoiler

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[Moonflare]

Narrator - "Is there anyone you can trust at all?"

Spoiler: Yes. And she's dressed in blue.

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[DeSkel15]

Spoiler: Yes. And she's dressed in blue.

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The irony of Tsuneyo saying this on Himawari's bday in an event named after her bday, before we even knew it was her bday, is not lost on me:

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For now, Himawari is in the suspicious camp for me, and after the Chapter 3 'All For You' Main Event, so is everyone "dressed in blue". Looking at you, Nao-chan:

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Just kidding, I trust you completely:

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...maybe...

 

[joryuken]

SO my replaying of lil will need to start either way, my save is beyond fucked,another 450 hours of my time playing this game, here I come OTL

 

[Detective Dc345]

Spoiler: Dark Route

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[Moonflare]

Spoiler: Dark Route

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So much for DeSkel's most awaited route Ami kills everyone including the gods, Akira is then left unimpeded to walk into the control room with a big reset red button "you know what, I think I'm going to give everyone their perfect life after my daughter killed them in such a horrible fashion..." - cue in purity routes with a happy song.

This game "Sayonara O Oshiete" (Teach Me How To Say Farewell) was posted on f95 today: https://f95zone.to/threads/teach-me-goodbye-comment-te-dire-adieu-final-craftwork.205091/

Also, what the heck, this is horrifying. Someone already wrote DeSkel's dark route for him, as if I needed Selebus to get even more pretentious, there's even french quotes in the cover. Although I'd change it to comment te dire que enough is enough [...] I'm seriously shaken from the screenshots.

 

[DeSkel15]

Spoiler: Dark Route

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Lessons in Love's Dark Route:

Spoiler

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[ratmanirl]

>nothing I'm doing is actually bad because there are no consequences
Well that's certainly one way to think about it lmfao. That said, it's a pretty common trope. If you've played Steins;Gate, I think there's one route where Okabe gets trapped in a time loop w/ Suzuha and then starts killing all his friends and running them over with trucks or something lmfao. Think something kinda similar is gonna happen here, maybe less killing and more SA.

 

[Moonflare]

>nothing I'm doing is actually bad because there are no consequences
Well that's certainly one way to think about it lmfao. That said, it's a pretty common trope. If you've played Steins;Gate, I think there's one route where Okabe gets trapped in a time loop w/ Suzuha and then starts killing all his friends and running them over with trucks or something lmfao. Think something kinda similar is gonna happen here, maybe less killing and more SA.

Yes and no. He experiences their deaths so many times he contemplates (not actually trying to do it) raping Suzuha, and that's when she manages to figure out something is wrong with him and convinces him to give up and go to the past with her. They live their lives happily from then onwards as a couple, presumably to their death.

Last time I played was long ago though, but it was a very strong point in this route that Suzuha saves Okabe from the edge of becoming unhinged, so he wasn't there yet.

In Steins;Gate 0 he's put through a similar loop, and yet achieves very different results from becoming unhinged in a bad way. Instead emerging as a mad scientist that can do the impossible again.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Spoiler: Dark Route

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GOOD. The dude has advertised this stage of the game too much that this route for me gradually loses all its allure. Make your story dark by actually getting to it instead of constantly meta-broadcasting "it's gonna be baaaad in a few years" all the time for christ's sake.

Because at this point I have doubts on whether he could make this phase as twisted as all his commercials have been alluding to. If I finally get to the alleged dark phase and realize that it is massively overhyped, I am gonna play this game with my monitor off for some extra darkness.

 

[Moonflare]

1. random question that doesn't have to do with anything: wasn't Chika just working at the maid cafe now? was she working two-jobs and I forgot about it?

Cause even though Akira doesn't say to Chinami that she got called to the mall, he doesn't specify that she got called to the cafe either.

2. also, I was rewatching "first contact" and "all for you" today, and I thought that maybe USER4 is inside NAO, rather than possibly being her. It would fit that it chose to hide inside a template (in this case template 9, as it didn't have its form ready). Because it says that something emerged half unconscious before its time and chose to hide inside somewhere/someone.

This thing that hid somewhere will eventually rally to itself every aspect of the previous gods, like birds and spiders, and bring the end to everything. This is especially interesting because it means that if we have a character with USER4 inside them, then it doesn't really matter if they're close to either spiders, birds or whatever in terms of determining which god they ascribe to, because its dominion would be everything supernatural in the first place. Also, it may be interesting that it keeps repeating that there are four, and yet when it asks about who is lying it only names three people.

Spoiler: All for you

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The hole in the wall refers to the hole that was caused by the accident involving Sekai crashing into a wall instead of another car. Well, by crashing into Kaori's car (supposedly), Sekaori was born by injecting her with Sekai limbs. So if instead the car crashed into a wall, Sekaori would just be Sekai parts that emerged from the wall. And in comes Nao-chan, a variation of Sekaori that shouldn't exist? Akira feels that he'd become her prey, and Kaori could be relating to Nao because they both have Sekai parts inside of them. She teases him about it too.

Spoiler: First contact

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Regardless, maybe we should focus more on "who has the incomplete and unconscious form of USER4 inside them as of right now", rather than who is USER4. Given that it chooses to hide during "All for you", and the next event has Ami asking Akira for a favor that is cut from the game by the gods with the message "there is only one god, whoever tells you otherwise is lying"... it would point out it being inside Ami.

Spoiler: From the desk of the ninth god

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But those are random thoughts, I have to think more about it.

Edit: Added screenshots.

 

[Vega Cifer]

I also checked visiting Chikas dorm and wow does she look crazy there. Her eyes look a little wider so does her smile..well can't say we didn't all basically expect this

 

[Moonflare]

What was the translation/cipher for John's speech in:

Spoiler: Sasom i en spegel?

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Couldn't find it in the thread. I'm interested in both the translation and what the key for the cipher was.

 

[barglenarglezous]

1. random question that doesn't have to do with anything: wasn't Chika just working at the maid cafe now? was she working two-jobs and I forgot about it?

Cause even though Akira doesn't say to Chinami that she got called to the mall, he doesn't specify that she got called to the cafe either.

That jumped out at me as well.

But I suspect this is mostly likely handwaved away as a disconnect between the actual conversation and Akira's perception in the moment, because even in the state we see Chika in the previous scene, the things Akira is saying are STRANGE and would be commented upon.

 

[NicolasL4D]

Lessons in Love's Dark Route:

Spoiler

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Imagine the dark route is just a fucking version of LiL where everything is night.

 

[LessonsInDissonance]

What was the translation/cipher for John's speech in:

Spoiler: Sasom i en spegel?

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Couldn't find it in the thread. I'm interested in both the translation and what the key for the cipher was.

John speaks in caesar cipher