Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.47.0] [Selebus]

[Antosha]

It's not that it's an unresolvable hole, it's the problem with pantsing in general, what made/makes aSoIaF so good is it's believability, shit happens naturally, shit happens cause of previous shit that happened, no one has plot armor, the story goes where it goes, it's not lead, it evolves naturally. This is great but it suffers at the end of the story, the need to tie things up is inherently unnatural, it's forced, it feels forced 99% of the time cause it is, there's no true end point for a story that's built around shit happening organically, wherever you chose to call the ending, there's still more after that point, unless you force a bunch of shit to come to a head at once. It can be done, but god is it hard to make it feel natural. GRRM can't do it, his parts have too much distance between them, he gave the outline to the show runners and we all saw what they did with it, the last few seasons were a mess of plot holes, teleporting characters and contrived bullshit all to force the finale and it felt distinctly crap because it wasn't what the first 3 or 4 seasons felt like. Plotters have their own problems but given most stories lean towards plotters over pantsers, i don't really think there's a need to elaborate on that, we all know good and bad plotted stories.

Well, I think also that GRRM is really good at creating characters you care about and conflict -- and plot twists that bring the two together -- but he just KEPT DOING IT. Making a world that was bigger and bigger and more and more complex and... now he has to tie up the threads. And, as nearly as I can tell, he can't figure out how to do it. His where-I'm-heading in his mind was probably something like the end of the HBO series, but unfortunately that fell flat (kinda had to).

When the main attraction of a series (aside as I said from compelling characters) was the "fun" surprises, you'd better stick the landing, or you'll have a lot of very disappointed fans.

So in that respect, yeah, his plotting let him down.

BTW, not a fan. Read the first book, figured out his game, and stopped there.

Just to throw out a bone to the pantsers... Shakespeare was one. Famously just sat down and wrote, then handed what he'd written over to the actors. Mind, he stole all his plots, so maybe that doesn't count. Heh.

 

[Bingoogus]

Mind, he stole all his plots, so maybe that doesn't count. Heh.

Let's count it, if no other reason then we can.

 

[barglenarglezous]

Well, I think also that GRRM is really good at creating characters you care about and conflict -- and plot twists that bring the two together -- but he just KEPT DOING IT. Making a world that was bigger and bigger and more and more complex and... now he has to tie up the threads. And, as nearly as I can tell, he can't figure out how to do it. His where-I'm-heading in his mind was probably something like the end of the HBO series, but unfortunately that fell flat (kinda had to).

I don't think the ending as it appears in the HBO series was all that bad, plot-point wise. It was that the entire last season felt like 5 seasons run through Spark-Notes style, so there was no connective tissue justifying plot or character progression from one point to another. All if it, there was a completely understandable and workable way to get from there to here, they just didn't bothering SHOWING any of it. Presumably, in the last two novels we'd actually get that progression so it'd be more palatable.

I think it's more likely that he painted himself into a corner, and doesn't like any of the ways out of it.

That, and he's a man driven by spite, so every time someone demands Winds of Winter comes out, he adds a year to the release date.

 

[CovertCobalt]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Started a new playthrough recently to see what lore snippets might stick out to me and an innocuous detail caught my eye.

Spoiler: The attic?

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Have we ever seen said attic during any events, maybe during a reset at some point? Wondering if there could be something strange lurking up there, or if it even exists at all.

 

[Riolol]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Started a new playthrough recently to see what lore snippets might stick out to me and an innocuous detail caught my eye.

Spoiler: The attic?

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Have we ever seen said attic during any events, maybe during a reset at some point? Wondering if there could be something strange lurking up there, or if it even exists at all.

Pretty sure the attic is where Ami found Sekai's poetry and clothes. I could be wrong.

 

[Moonflare]

Long time lurker, first time poster. Started a new playthrough recently to see what lore snippets might stick out to me and an innocuous detail caught my eye.

Spoiler: The attic?

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Have we ever seen said attic during any events, maybe during a reset at some point? Wondering if there could be something strange lurking up there, or if it even exists at all.

What Riolol said, but there also seems to be different attics. The light from the attic, and the creaking of the seventh step leading to it (or in it, as where the log is hidden) is recurring. Most importantly, Nodoka states that Kyoko (her mother) had the key to the attic (presumably the attic from the upside down house - which ironically would be down, not up).

The attic at Ami's house holds Sekai stuff, if not other things. Ami uses her dress, and gets her poems from there at some point. It's possible that actual pieces of Sekai are there too, as Akira mentions having kept some fragments of glass with viscera (presumably) from the accident.

Edit: also, as LiL is about dimensions stacked on top of one another, ascending to the attic could very likely mean ascending in a supernatural manner. The replica of heaven is situated at a school that's beneath the surface, thus it's down, possibly at the underheaven or close to it. Most importantly, it's down, you have to descend/drown to get to it.

You'd have to ascend (opposite direction) to get to the attic, to the door at Tojo's house, and to the door at the forest that Wires asks Akira and Nao to get into (that leads to the office). Although the office still seems to be a school, so that's unclear.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

Spoiler: The attic?

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That’s the third time today I’ve noticed Ami’s computer looking all glitchy… All are in different scenes too, so this is an intentional recurring detail. Have to wonder what it means, if anything.

Either way, pretty cool. It’s something I haven’t really noticed until recently.

 

[XO6OT]

That’s the third time today I’ve noticed Ami’s computer looking all glitchy… All are in different scenes too, so this is an intentional recurring detail. Have to wonder what it means, if anything.

Either way, pretty cool. It’s something I haven’t really noticed until recently.

Maybe it's somehow connected with one now banned site.

Spoiler: f95

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[crustlord12]

Ami uses her dress, and gets her poems from there at some point

Huh, excuse me for borrowing the dunce cap for a few mins Bingoogus but have we talked about the possibility that Sekai just straight up told Ami to start wearing her dress? Sekai probably is telling Ami exactly what to write in her poetry as well.

I wish I could remember if this has been discussed before but there's almost 44,000 posts and I feel like more than half of those have come in the last year or so

 

[Moonflare]

Huh, excuse me for borrowing the dunce cap for a few mins Bingoogus but have we talked about the possibility that Sekai just straight up told Ami to start wearing her dress? Sekai probably is telling Ami exactly what to write in her poetry as well.

I wish I could remember if this has been discussed before but there's almost 44,000 posts and I feel like more than half of those have come in the last year or so

Unlikely, because Sekai couldn't talk to Ami when she first started wearing her dress, same for the poetry. That's all Ami. Unless you count Sekai not literally telling her to do it this time, but more of a repetition from previous cycles in which she might had told her already.

Spoiler: outcry of the hunted hare

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It begs the question, can Ami directly talk to Sekai even now?

Spoiler: That funny feeling

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She's obviously having an actual conversation with someone when she's alone, and the most likely culprit is Sekai. We just haven't seen it. If she's talking to Sekai though, rather than her whispering thoughts inside her head, then it makes it more clear that she couldn't by the time she chose to wear her dress and write poetry though.

 

[Detective Dc345]

Spoiler: Ami Event Title

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[fdsasdf_p]

It begs the question, can Ami directly talk to Sekai even now?

Spoiler: That funny feeling

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She's obviously having an actual conversation with someone when she's alone, and the most likely culprit is Sekai. We just haven't seen it. If she's talking to Sekai though, rather than her whispering thoughts inside her head, then it makes it more clear that she couldn't by the time she chose to wear her dress and write poetry though.

I agree; I don't think Ami trying to be "more Sekai" was from Sekai's ghostly persuation specifically because of the example you brough up. Besides, I think it's still too soon to use the fact "Ami talking to someone invisible when alone" to determine whether she can converse with Sekai.

One scene that cements this idea is from You & Me Against the World. As the crazy daughter that views her mom like a legendary figure, it's unfathomable to imagine this "Shut up!" was directed to Sekai, even if she is no longer amongst the living. If this instead was just delusional talk, then "Ami talking to someone only she can see" becomes a lot less likely to lead somewhere.

 

[joryuken]

quick note after 48hrs of playtime my brain is a watermelon, and for some reason i started liking eggs

 

[DeSkel15]

For those interested in when the Attic and Sekai (plus dress) was mentioned, it's Chapter 2's Ami 'Outcry of the Hunted Hare' Event. It's also when Ami had a nightmare involving Sekai:

Spoiler

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I'd also think Ami talking about cleaning the Attic in her Chapter 1 'Harem Tutorial' Event (the first Ami Event), then later having Sekai's shadow show up behind her in her Chapter 1 'Cute Girls and Stuff' Event:

Spoiler

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Are related. (This Event also leads to her becoming a Maid which is a Divergence to the normal timeline according to Maya Prime in Chapter 1 Ami's 'Divergence' Event)

In theory: Ami cleans Attic. Finds Sekai things/unleashes something. Starts having bad dreams and something like Sekai following her. Ends up having trouble sleeping as mentioned in Chapter 2's 'The First Signs of Fraying Threads' Main Event:

Spoiler

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Which might be why she had a fever in the Chapter 1 'Little Girl' Main Event, and ever since, she's been getting worse and worse while the voices mentioned in her Chapter 2 'Living' Event:

Spoiler

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Got worse and worse, along with the dreams, etc, and eventually...well, she loses her shit (after apparently getting murdered), breaks, and seems to just be doing what the voices tell her now:

Spoiler

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[GSwole]

It wasn't a valid suggestion. For a rare moment, Sel was right.

Also, you are taking out of context screenshots too seriously

I'm always right. Even when I'm wrong. Which is never but you get the point. If those bugs dare talk back to me I have to remind them who makes the money for a poorly disguised self-insert harem fantasy with religious undertones about a guy that gets to fuck everything with a hole yet still feel bad about it.

 

[Riolol]

I agree; I don't think Ami trying to be "more Sekai" was from Sekai's ghostly persuation specifically because of the example you brough up. Besides, I think it's still too soon to use the fact "Ami talking to someone invisible when alone" to determine whether she can converse with Sekai.

One scene that cements this idea is from You & Me Against the World. As the crazy daughter that views her mom like a legendary figure, it's unfathomable to imagine this "Shut up!" was directed to Sekai, even if she is no longer amongst the living. If this instead was just delusional talk, then "Ami talking to someone only she can see" becomes a lot less likely to lead somewhere.
View attachment 4027674

I wouldn't call it unfathomable, she was hysterical in that moment. Sekai could have been trying to calm her down for all we know. I don't know who else it would be.

 

[Apollo259]

I get that some people here dislike the guy for various reasons, myself included at least in some capacity. But surely its not worth faux outrage over a screenshot of how he responded to some goober in a discord that's having a "No memes in general"-esque conversation.

 

[Moonflare]

I get that some people here dislike the guy for various reasons, myself included at least in some capacity. But surely its not worth faux outrage over a screenshot of how he responded to some goober in a discord that's having a "No memes in general"-esque conversation.

Less of an isolated incident and more of a flagbearer for overall repeated complaints from many other subscribers that were either disrespected themselves or felt they were in a hostile environment by his actions towards the people that pay him.

 

[aramaug]

What Riolol said, but there also seems to be different attics. The light from the attic, and the creaking of the seventh step leading to it (or in it, as where the log is hidden) is recurring. Most importantly, Nodoka states that Kyoko (her mother) had the key to the attic (presumably the attic from the upside down house - which ironically would be down, not up).

The attic at Ami's house holds Sekai stuff, if not other things. Ami uses her dress, and gets her poems from there at some point. It's possible that actual pieces of Sekai are there too, as Akira mentions having kept some fragments of glass with viscera (presumably) from the accident.

Edit: also, as LiL is about dimensions stacked on top of one another, ascending to the attic could very likely mean ascending in a supernatural manner. The replica of heaven is situated at a school that's beneath the surface, thus it's down, possibly at the underheaven or close to it. Most importantly, it's down, you have to descend/drown to get to it.

You'd have to ascend (opposite direction) to get to the attic, to the door at Tojo's house, and to the door at the forest that Wires asks Akira and Nao to get into (that leads to the office). Although the office still seems to be a school, so that's unclear.

A couple small points:

• The original reference to the seventh step is on the stairs in Sakaki-bar-a from the bar to the apartment. It definitely has some deeper meaning than a creaky staircase, but I can't remember it being directly tied to an attic.
• Yuko (lavender hair girl) is the one with the key to the attic, not Kyoko. I think this was pretty much confirmed in the recent ARG tweets where Yuko was the one receiving supplies from the outside world (Nodoka says the girl with the key to the attic is also the one who gets the groceries).

As far as the attic in the upside down house, I think it's home to a gate which is the only connection with the outside world. Hence why Yuko, the one who has the key to the attic, is the one who collects supplies and might have the ability to "stick her hands through doors". In "Side Event" there's a line about how there's "something in the attic" of the upside down house, and somewhere else someone says something along the lines of "sometimes I think there's another universe inside of this house" (I couldn't find this reference, if someone is able to remind me where it happens, I'd appreciate it).

For another attic reference, in "Blood & Sunset" Sensei implies that he hid a journal of his old poems in the attic because they remind him of Sekai (assuming I'm interpreting this right). I don't think there's any indication that Ami found it, but it would be interesting if she did.

Spoiler

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Huh, excuse me for borrowing the dunce cap for a few mins Bingoogus but have we talked about the possibility that Sekai just straight up told Ami to start wearing her dress? Sekai probably is telling Ami exactly what to write in her poetry as well.

I wish I could remember if this has been discussed before but there's almost 44,000 posts and I feel like more than half of those have come in the last year or so

For those interested in when the Attic and Sekai (plus dress) was mentioned, it's Chapter 2's Ami 'Outcry of the Hunted Hare' Event. It's also when Ami had a nightmare involving Sekai:

Spoiler

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I'd also think Ami talking about cleaning the Attic in her Chapter 1 'Harem Tutorial' Event (the first Ami Event), then later having Sekai's shadow show up behind her in her Chapter 1 'Cute Girls and Stuff' Event:

Spoiler

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Are related. (This Event also leads to her becoming a Maid which is a Divergence to the normal timeline according to Maya Prime in Chapter 1 Ami's 'Divergence' Event)

In theory: Ami cleans Attic. Finds Sekai things/unleashes something. Starts having bad dreams and something like Sekai following her. Ends up having trouble sleeping as mentioned in Chapter 2's 'The First Signs of Fraying Threads' Main Event:

Spoiler

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Which might be why she had a fever in the Chapter 1 'Little Girl' Main Event, and ever since, she's been getting worse and worse while the voices mentioned in her Chapter 2 'Living' Event:

Spoiler

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Got worse and worse, along with the dreams, etc, and eventually...well, she loses her shit (after apparently getting murdered), breaks, and seems to just be doing what the voices tell her now:

Adding to what DeSkel said:

Early in Chapter 2 ("Sonnet 18") Ami is pretty clueless about poetry. Later in the chapter she finds Sekai's poems and apparently turns into a prodigy overnight.

Spoiler

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In "My Life With You", Ami has a blackout just as she starts to read one of Sekai's poems.

Spoiler

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Whether or not she's directly hearing Sekai's voice at this point, it definitely seems like Sekai's poems have had a subconscious supernatural effect on her.

I wouldn't call it unfathomable, she was hysterical in that moment. Sekai could have been trying to calm her down for all we know. I don't know who else it would be.

I'm still half convinced it's Maya (Prime). The voice interrupts her as soon as she starts badmouthing Maya.

Spoiler

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But I also think she talks to Sekai in other events, so I could easily be wrong.

 

[{Jeizaguretokanteishi01}]

A new version of the DRM removal patch (replace your gui.rpy in the LiL/game folder with this one) for the new version of Renpy, and a new 0.42 script file if yours got deleted by loading the game with ill-sourced Care Packages. All of the ones hosted here should be free of the code that will trigger it, but you never know...

is there any thing i would need this for other than the care packages