- Dec 18, 2020
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I redid the game cause the incest thing with Ami was creeping me out. It was really late like I think near chapter 3's end. And I redid everything only for Selebus to go "yeah you're playing the game wrong." and then straight up missing entire renders and text near the end of chapter 3. I went fuck it and just went through the green path after.
Selebus is definitely gonna fuck up red-path choices later on.
- Nov 23, 2023
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This is a fact, I think this is literally something that everyone should know, whoever is on the red path will be punished and that is a fact.Selly likes this and this will make sense in the story which gives more strength to Selly so people who are on the red path have to keep in mind, that they will be punished and depending on the choices there will be very heavy punishments.
- May 9, 2019
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You're right. Considering casting oneself into Wishing Well is strongly connected with jumping from rooftop (what Akira did at the beginning). It's natural to come to conclusion that it's Maya and Akira who created everything (In different time. See Soliloquy of Maya in Everlasting Mercy for more).
To Selebus, go hell with your Green Route and travested value of "remain in sin so that grace may increase". You can tell yourself a million times that life is dark so I will continue to behave more according to reality to make my brave and strong, and it's wrong. Because "there are crimes which everywhere, always, under no matter what legislation, are beyond discussion crimes, and should be regarded as such as long as man is man". I feel good for not taking advantage of Haruka and become a precious friend for her. I don't regret it despite all of evil deeds Akira has said and done.
- Nov 23, 2023
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My point of view, about both paths.
Red path: Happy now, but eternal sadness later with punishments.
Green path: sadness now, but joy after the events and without punishment.
I genuinely believe that anyone on the red path will be "banned" from playing the pure routes and the full ending.
Red path: Happy now, but eternal sadness later with punishments.
Green path: sadness now, but joy after the events and without punishment.
I genuinely believe that anyone on the red path will be "banned" from playing the pure routes and the full ending.
- Nov 22, 2021
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While I do personally lean towards the belief that red path players will not being punished, it is without any bias I put forth the position that there may be errors of judgment in the reasoning towards green path being required. I may be entirely off-base, though, and so present this just as a matter of discussion.
1) Sensei Must Grow
I think ideas about how 'sensei must grow' is being presented as an unquestioned assumption that "Sensei growing" is something that Selebus believes is a good thing. While it is true that in many standard works of media, personal growth is considered transcendent and necessary, it seems to me that Selebus would not be keen on that kind of traditional, simplified view of the human condition where one may be in a "bad" state then perform nebulous actions/training to be put in a "good" state. If anything, it feels to me that the game is actively trying to be critical of this perspective because it can put those deemed as 'bad' in a state of eternal torment as they strive unsuccessfully to become 'good.' For example, and this is just a CRAAAAAAAAAAAZY theoretical with NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO grounding whatsoever, let's suggest that Selebus has some kind of mental illness in real life that makes it difficult for him to socialize or fit in properly. Let's say that he lived a life wracked with a sense of self-doubt, maybe inferiority complex, blah blah, life's a bitch and then we die that's why we get high, you know the drill. Do we believe that Selebus would subsequently have conquered these problems in a dramatic flourish of shounen-esque triumph? Do we think Selebus would look to someone with mental illness and say "Just go through hell and get stronger so it's not an issue, easy." Do we think Selebus would appreciate a god-like figure telling him to go through a trial to get better, and mocking him whenever he tries to make good choices? IDK, I have to confess, it doesn't exactly seem to fit together. It seems more likely to me that the game would be about criticizing that, and LiL ends with Sensei accepting himself rather than trying to 'fix' himself in some arbitrary way.
(*P.S., as always I tend to think about Futaba in this situation. The traditionalist view is that overweight people should have better self control / exercise more and 'fix' their problem. But her problem is a deep sense of dysphoria and self-hatred which can't be solved by such simplistic ideas (even if there is an association with physical health and emotional happiness). It seems like her arc has demonstrated the failures of simple solutions and the dogged, unending nature of mental illness.)
(**P.P.S. for clarity there is kind of a semantic issue at play here, where we can imagine 2 different forms of personal growth. I would say that Sensei moving past trauma and learning to accept himself / his mistakes / blah blah is one form of growth, while Sensei 'toughening up' and 'facing his fears' until he's a 'better person' is another. This is kind of arbitrary but I think that spiritual wellness is not the same as self-help mumbo jumbo which almost never actually helps the people in need, but the two may get conflated based on the situation.)
(***P.P.P.S It would be really high level if LiL being all like "stop playing the game!" and being obnoxious to play is kind of like trying to stop normal people from putting themselves through hell. Like 'hey! you dont need to suffer like this! just close the game!" or something. Perhaps the puzzles are meant to be like "You must be this mentally ill to keep playing LiL." And thus only the weird people push through. Or those with URM.)
2) Unironic Deification Of Gods
It feels strange to me that so many take the mad raving of god figures as like... moral authorities? Things to listen to? Like, take it from me! If you're crippled by some mental affliction and a voice in your head that just won't fucking shut up keeps mocking you and your choices, uuhuh, what you're gonna wanna do is block that voice the fuck out and not start worshipping it. Like, we must remember that Lessons in Love is like 50% a critique of religion. I think if you make a good choice and a schizo ghost is like durrr hurrr congrats on not molesting someone but uuuh that makes you a coward and uuuh just really lame so go grope an office lady in the train and rape 5000 schoolgirls to be chad then we can rest assured its advice is probably not good. It would be just whack if a game so anti-religion ended up presenting the words of gods as really important and valuable rather than nonsense to be resisted.
1) Sensei Must Grow
I think ideas about how 'sensei must grow' is being presented as an unquestioned assumption that "Sensei growing" is something that Selebus believes is a good thing. While it is true that in many standard works of media, personal growth is considered transcendent and necessary, it seems to me that Selebus would not be keen on that kind of traditional, simplified view of the human condition where one may be in a "bad" state then perform nebulous actions/training to be put in a "good" state. If anything, it feels to me that the game is actively trying to be critical of this perspective because it can put those deemed as 'bad' in a state of eternal torment as they strive unsuccessfully to become 'good.' For example, and this is just a CRAAAAAAAAAAAZY theoretical with NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO grounding whatsoever, let's suggest that Selebus has some kind of mental illness in real life that makes it difficult for him to socialize or fit in properly. Let's say that he lived a life wracked with a sense of self-doubt, maybe inferiority complex, blah blah, life's a bitch and then we die that's why we get high, you know the drill. Do we believe that Selebus would subsequently have conquered these problems in a dramatic flourish of shounen-esque triumph? Do we think Selebus would look to someone with mental illness and say "Just go through hell and get stronger so it's not an issue, easy." Do we think Selebus would appreciate a god-like figure telling him to go through a trial to get better, and mocking him whenever he tries to make good choices? IDK, I have to confess, it doesn't exactly seem to fit together. It seems more likely to me that the game would be about criticizing that, and LiL ends with Sensei accepting himself rather than trying to 'fix' himself in some arbitrary way.
(*P.S., as always I tend to think about Futaba in this situation. The traditionalist view is that overweight people should have better self control / exercise more and 'fix' their problem. But her problem is a deep sense of dysphoria and self-hatred which can't be solved by such simplistic ideas (even if there is an association with physical health and emotional happiness). It seems like her arc has demonstrated the failures of simple solutions and the dogged, unending nature of mental illness.)
(**P.P.S. for clarity there is kind of a semantic issue at play here, where we can imagine 2 different forms of personal growth. I would say that Sensei moving past trauma and learning to accept himself / his mistakes / blah blah is one form of growth, while Sensei 'toughening up' and 'facing his fears' until he's a 'better person' is another. This is kind of arbitrary but I think that spiritual wellness is not the same as self-help mumbo jumbo which almost never actually helps the people in need, but the two may get conflated based on the situation.)
(***P.P.P.S It would be really high level if LiL being all like "stop playing the game!" and being obnoxious to play is kind of like trying to stop normal people from putting themselves through hell. Like 'hey! you dont need to suffer like this! just close the game!" or something. Perhaps the puzzles are meant to be like "You must be this mentally ill to keep playing LiL." And thus only the weird people push through. Or those with URM.)
2) Unironic Deification Of Gods
It feels strange to me that so many take the mad raving of god figures as like... moral authorities? Things to listen to? Like, take it from me! If you're crippled by some mental affliction and a voice in your head that just won't fucking shut up keeps mocking you and your choices, uuhuh, what you're gonna wanna do is block that voice the fuck out and not start worshipping it. Like, we must remember that Lessons in Love is like 50% a critique of religion. I think if you make a good choice and a schizo ghost is like durrr hurrr congrats on not molesting someone but uuuh that makes you a coward and uuuh just really lame so go grope an office lady in the train and rape 5000 schoolgirls to be chad then we can rest assured its advice is probably not good. It would be just whack if a game so anti-religion ended up presenting the words of gods as really important and valuable rather than nonsense to be resisted.
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I am in 100% agreement. I do not know how else you could read the game tbh.
Also, I am in the minority for thinking that Io and Akira were just two triggered souls triggering each other into a really shitty awful experince.
On the other hand we broke the first girl that cracked Akira enough that I started to like him a little bit!
- Nov 23, 2023
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Minority? I really thought it was a consensus that this event is literally traumatic for Io and Akira and they are both people who dealt with the same trauma in different ways.
I think it's interesting to analyze that I think Akira just doesn't hate sex like Io, because he was completely broken by being with Sekai until he was an adult.being completely submissive to her, so he stayed with these thoughts until he was an adult while Io managed to escape in her early teens from what I remember.
Well you're forgetting that "nothing is real." "Growth" as I read it in this game is really truly coming to grips with "nothing being real." Every time I try to and bring in either lit theory or theology, a subset of posters...don't like it... so without trying to get into theology "Nothing is real" IS NOT THE SAME AS "I can do /get to do whatever I like".
I always took Futaba as the trap example to be honest. As you stated, "obvious" growth would be Futaba becoming more accepting of her body. However, the "obvious" growth for Nodoka and Otoha would be to seek help during a manic episode. However that's where Otoha's creativity lives, and Nodoka's manic episodes might be the key to saving everybody (akira). Growth is good, but only if it's in the right direction.
I mean, or strange really fucked up things are going on and growth is getting your head out of your ass and to stop thinking about how *you* are the cause of all of this, and actually do something to help the other people who are terrified and experiencing it too.
This is not high level. It's written into the text. The game does *not* want you to play and is judging you for doing so. It's not Akira exactly that has to go through hell in order to get to heaven. Its us. We have to commit to the bad shit. Akira is just a character in a game.
After the last couple of chapters I'm off that this game is a critique of religion, but a critique of certain ways of worship and atheism tbh.
- Sep 5, 2020
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This became obvious in chapter 1, where if you reject Sara the game calls you a "fucking coward" repeatedly.
I took it in a different way. Because of Sekai, Akira literally doesn't know how to express strong emotions via anything other then sex. He has no context on how to love without sticking his penis inside you.
Where Io, rightfully, stopped trusting adults and hating her body.
Io sees Akira far more clearly then he sees her
- Nov 22, 2021
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I will definitely not deploy 'word of god' as a shield, because it is very shallow to analyze literature through only one singular lens, and because things may have changed over time, but Selebus explicitly referred to the game as a critique of religion in early F95 posts. And he spends quite a lot of time on twitter replying to republicans / Christians and making fun of them believing in, quote, a 'mythical man in the sky.' (Dear lord he replies to so many republicans.) So I'm personally pretty inclined to view this as a cut and dry issue where religion is being flatly critiqued. But, again, definitely not using word of god as a shield; the text is more nuanced than this.
- Oct 1, 2023
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The game has mocked the idea of "completing scenes and gathering affection points" enough times that I think green path is a trap. It's also the easiest one to catch someone narratively in since if you did full green, that means you did EVERY event, including the fucked up ones. You could miss a whole bunch of events or just one and be "red" though and that's a much harder nuance to account for, especially if you want to say something targeted and have to account for the specific scenes they missed. This is only reinforced by
That being said if we're gonna mark endings as "true" and not, I do thing green path would be most likely to lead to a "true" ending, I just don't think it'd be a very happy one. Reminds me of Paper Lily: Project Kat. There's plenty of alternate endings, even a happy one where she makes friends, but the "true" ending is that all of them die. Same with Mad Father or The Witch's House, plenty of "true" endings where awful things happen. Alternatively, red path could be a true ending in that Akira wasn't as horrible as he could've been (except this also doesn't work because you could've only missed good homie or something, but one exception is easy enough to check). It could go either way really.
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That being said if we're gonna mark endings as "true" and not, I do thing green path would be most likely to lead to a "true" ending, I just don't think it'd be a very happy one. Reminds me of Paper Lily: Project Kat. There's plenty of alternate endings, even a happy one where she makes friends, but the "true" ending is that all of them die. Same with Mad Father or The Witch's House, plenty of "true" endings where awful things happen. Alternatively, red path could be a true ending in that Akira wasn't as horrible as he could've been (except this also doesn't work because you could've only missed good homie or something, but one exception is easy enough to check). It could go either way really.
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- Nov 23, 2023
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I liked this interpretation of yours too, since it also makes sense, Akira himself mentions that the only way he knows to show love is through sex, he doesn't know how to do it any other way.
- Apr 24, 2021
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As someone who also faithfully observes the green path and will keep doing that no matter what, I still cannot in good faith absolutely believe that this isn’t just Selly jabbing players, especially when such mockery almost only happens to players who walk on wizard-free paths and not extensively all other red paths. It’s just him taunting players who choose the option HE created.
There are two biggest problems for me about the general green = canon business: first is that not all missable events have positive meaning or result in any form of agreeable character growth; second is that there has not been an actual and major consequence for these choices yet, not even the most alarming one that is amifingered (but obviously the latter one is subject to change).
Some examples here:
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tldr: I just treat all missable events as side quests, shapable futures, and consequences; something well below canon or truth path considerations. Only events that aren’t missable are canon, and events that are missable at best impact main quests in very minor ways. What are the main quests? Save the world, slay the gods, stop the cycle, and sex our Maya (happily); the rest is just whether I want to 100% this game or not and it’s completely preferential. I’ll change my mind if one day a future update gives me an unavoidable early game over all because I didn’t jerk off in front of Tsubasa.
edit: suddenly thought of Karin's example
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- May 27, 2020
- 1,191
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Know a bunch of anti-religious anti-Christian people that believe in "Gods." I was loose with the word religion, should have thrown an "organized," or been more clear and said "I'm no longer convinced that the games position is that all the gods in the game are bad." I would bet money that Sel is a practitioner tho.