Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.48.0] [Selebus]

[Fire Lord Zuko]

About the whole ‘simulation’ thing, I also addressed my thoughts on it awhile back if anyone’s interested:

The Nao door scene is definitely weird, and it isn't too far fetched to see why one would think they're all trapped in a simulation and Kumon-mi is just part of one big experiment. However, I still don't fully subscribe to this theory, for one key reason:

Spoiler: The Reason

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Personally, I’m still very much on the fence about the whole thing. The USER2 Secret Room from the Camping Trip is still the best evidence we have regarding everything being a simulation. The fact that different worlds are split into numbered terminals is also pretty weird.

With that in mind, though, as others have pointed out above… how much of this is an actual ‘simulation’ with outside influence, and how much of this is Akira continuing to suppress his memories, and he’s crafting a lot of this weirdness himself? I mean, he does have the power to do that.

Replay Yasu’s “Frankincense and Myrrh” and “Hand of God” events from Chapter 3. It goes into exactly what Akira can be capable of; how with a change of perception, he can manipulate the world around him, just like his father (Yuu).

Oh yes, and regarding the USER2 Room, once again… I will say this. Can we reallllly trust Wires? Like actually? Come on…

Wires might be more ‘Calm’ about things, and less ‘horrible’ than HOPE or Pareidolia (supposedly) was, but that doesn’t mean he’s our friend. Wires must have an ulterior motive. He’s just playing the long game.

To trust a god is a horrible idea, until they give us reason to trust them. And even then, it’s still a gamble. This is also assuming Wires and the other gods are ‘real’, and aren’t just manifestations of Akira’s broken subconscious.

 

[Pedro4545454]

This is also assuming Wires and the other gods are ‘real’, and aren’t just manifestations of Akira’s broken subconscious.

Hope, he looked very real when he appeared to Ayane and Makoto, Wire has already possessed Tsuneyo, Sekai is inside Kaori and Kaori can talk to her, everything so far points to the gods being real since they interacted more with other people and not only with Akira, so denying their existence nowadays is meaningless.

 

[gazgiz]

About the whole ‘simulation’ thing, I also addressed my thoughts on it awhile back if anyone’s interested:

With that in mind, though, as others have pointed out above… how much of this is an actual ‘simulation’ with outside influence, and how much of this is Akira continuing to suppress his memories, and he’s crafting a lot of this weirdness himself? I mean, he does have the power to do that.

Spoiler: Current Spoilers I guess?

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[gazgiz]

Hope, he looked very real when he appeared to Ayane and Makoto, Wire has already possessed Tsuneyo, Sekai is inside Kaori and Kaori can talk to her, everything so far points to the gods being real since they interacted more with other people and not only with Akira, so denying their existence nowadays is meaningless.

I thought Wires was Tsuneyo's father? Or is this speculation that I've internalized as being "true"

 

[Pedro4545454]

I thought Wires was Tsuneyo's father? Or is this speculation that I've internalized as being "true"

This is the most accepted theory so far involving Tsuneyo's father, so in my point of view this theory is real and makes sense.

 

[gazgiz]

This is the most accepted theory so far involving Tsuneyo's father, so in my point of view this theory is real and makes sense.

Right. I honestly thought that Yasu would have put "the gods aren't real" to bed.....

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

Hope, he looked very real when he appeared to Ayane and Makoto, Wire has already possessed Tsuneyo, Sekai is inside Kaori and Kaori can talk to her, everything so far points to the gods being real since they interacted more with other people and not only with Akira, so denying their existence nowadays is meaningless.

Spoiler: Current Spoilers I guess?

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Hey, most likely! I don’t claim to know the answers. I’m just openly speculating. You both make very good points in regards of the gods’ existence. Especially remembering Sara blacks out too. That’s… yeah.

If I can offer an amendment to my original post, then: is it possible that both could be true? Are HOPE and Wires two very real outside entities, and Pareidolia and Sekai’s ghost are manifestations of Akira’s mind?

Pareidolia only has one believer, after all: Akira. And when he asked the God of Save Slots who Pareidolia was, he seemed to have no clue who that even was.

You would think Akira has to constantly be around for him to keep the entities stable or in place for the ‘Akira is creating them from his mind’ theory to be true, but… does he really?

Restoring his memories of Sekai on the Beach is what ultimately allowed her to ‘reawaken’, after all. He could simply be creating these entities and allowing them to wander.

…Buuuuut, again, it’s all just speculation. We’re trying to put together a still incomplete puzzle. We simply need more pieces first before we can figure this out.

 

[shmurfer]

I wonder how many times Sel has read people’s ending theories, and they ended up being right or close to it, and he was like “SHIT!” and changed it so as to avoid embarrassment…

He's gonna ruin his game if he does this. You can't foreshadow something and then change it when people follow the clues. There's decent clues in chapter 1 that could end up as reasonable points to hit for an ending and it'd be a shame to find out those were all wrong so they could subvert your expectations like Game of Thrones season 8.

What you do instead is once people get it decently right, you add misdirection to make them believe it's something else without outright saying the old theory was wrong.

I've brought these up before but in Steven Universe, 'Rose Quartz was Pink Diamond' was guessed very early in the show once the concept of Diamonds was theorized, long before we saw an actual Diamond. Then they added the story Garnet told about Rose shattering Pink Diamond so people started theorizing again, even though true believers were right about saying her story wasn't proof. And later on, it was proven to be a false perspective as the shattering was a forgery.

Before Steven Universe, we had Naruto and how Tobi was fingered as Obito soon after his introduction. Then after Sasuke's backstory came to pass and his brother was dead. Tobi self identified as Madara Uchiha, long lost clan head and ninja so powerful his mere name caused the rest of the ninja villages to unite for war. Then years later as part of the war, the real Madara Uchiha was 'revived' and he looked identical to the statue we saw years ago which called Tobi's identity into question again. Months later it was revealed to be Obito (weekly updates for scale).

This is an important tangent because...

Selly has already said since the beginning of the game that he hates coma/dream/simulation theories, he said that this is for weak writers.

You have to point out why people hate them though. Normally dreams / simulations are just cop-out explanations to dismiss story that's been happening for a long time (like retconning seasons of a tv show like the first time it happened)

I've given a scenario where we could call it a dream or a simulation, but functionally you could rename Kumon-Mi to Hokkaido or some other actual japanese city and then say time is actually being frozen and reset.
The only rammifications is the expense of the situation instead, now time travel and manipulation is a real thing in this situation and that pointless major physics breaking reality is something that needs to be dealt with (Like if the loop is broken, why can't Sensei control time afterwards? why would he go back to a perverted life with Maya when he could literally control the world and never have to experience trauma again with that power?) At the very least, taking that power so he can't ever lose Maya again.

Nothing about it being a simulation means the girls have to be fake, but it provides a cheaper explanation of why their memories can be manipulated, how murdered girls can be killed and revived, how memories can both be lost and recovered, why memories can be viewed rather than recalled. Why we can see weird shit like characters floating in midair, or copies of the same person can appear in the same location, or why the world breaking looks and sound like computer glitches. Sensei and most of the girls can be real, just pulled into a sandbox to be toyed with all for whatever the purpose of the simulation is without having to actually risk the lives of the girls.

It also provides a great way to make the idea that 'Maya isn't real' a reality (Nakayamas too in my opinion) by granting the ability to insert fake characters that can interact with the real characters. Or gives them plausibie deniability by reframing them not as humans but as something else (Angels imo).

And as pointed out, it provides great ways to conceptalize the alternate timelines and 'dimensions'. Terminals being stacked on top of each other can reflect servers being stacked vertically in a server rack. It also can explain other mechanics like affection points and how administrators can grant and remove points at will.

Characters speaking weird gibberish can be much more easily explained by it being a simulation that people aren't necesarily speaking with voice, not that they'd realise or anything until a happy event or something. Or are we saying Sara really said in real life "dfsi9gujwer0tigf08rhgwrgfdfoudbhjvdiofjgwpodfsdfwfwefwt. And erfguhw3r8rgfqsehfdvgwdfwpgfug." Or is that all of a sudden a video game thing we have to just accept but a simulation / dream is too much?

Dismissing all of that because Selebus said "since the beginning of the game that he hates coma/dream/simulation theories" is potentially swallowing the misinformation again. Has he hard line said "It's not a simulation" and even if he did, would you put it past him to go back on his word in the effort of throwing off theorycrafters?

 

[Pedro4545454]

If I can offer an amendment to my original post, then: is it possible that both could be true? Are HOPE and Wires two very real outside entities, and Pareidolia and Sekai’s ghost are manifestations of Akira’s mind?

Pareidolia only has one believer, after all: Akira. And when he asked the God of Save Slots who Pareidolia was, he seemed to have no clue who that even was.

You would think Akira has to constantly be around for him to keep the entities stable or in place for the ‘Akira is creating them from his mind’ theory to be true, but… does he really?

Restoring his memories of Sekai on the Beach is what ultimately allowed her to ‘reawaken’, after all. He could simply be creating these entities and allowing them to wander.

…Buuuuut, again, it’s all just speculation. We’re trying to put together a still incomplete puzzle. We simply need more pieces first before we can figure this out.

Well, again, Sekai has been in contact with Ami for a long time now than we think, so not only did Sekai wake up on the beach, but Akira recognized her existence on the beach. It is much more likely that she was already wandering and talking to Ami since chapter 1 and only in chapter 3 did Akira recognize her existence as real. Because as we know, Sekai can talk to Ami and from what we've seen so far she can even talk to Niki, so the spirit Sekai is 100% real. paredolia was forgotten so it makes sense that others don't remember him and only his one believer remembers him.

 

[shmurfer]

Well, again, Sekai has been in contact with Ami for a long time now than we think, so not only did Sekai wake up on the beach, but Akira recognized her existence on the beach. It is much more likely that she was already wandering and talking to Ami since chapter 1 and only in chapter 3 did Akira recognize her existence as real. Because as we know, Sekai can talk to Ami and from what we've seen so far she can even talk to Niki, so the spirit Sekai is 100% real. paredolia was forgotten so it makes sense that others don't remember him and only his one believer remembers him.

I'm willing to say Spirit Sekai is real (as in an entity that is properly thinking for itself. Whether it's actually Sekai or something using her 'skin' is to be decided. Sekai living through her organs inside of Kaori and then spirit projecting elsewhere in the world is slightly too far for me right now)

And I'd put the Sekai that exists in the 0.44-0.45 halloween timeline a creation of that Ami. She's a bit too dumb to be Sekai and is both a yes man to that Ami, but is denying the ability to fuck 'Sensei' too like it's a self inflicted punishment for Ami until she can convince her 'Sensei' to fuck her. Akira coming into her timeline as Amifuckable is probably something that's caught her eye, and why I suspect she came to our timeline after the reset (Though that triple beach moon theory is interesting, and there's always the chance she was always like this). And on that tangent, I don't know if she did something to our Ami or if she's just possessed / reset our Ami before inserting herself.

I also like the idea of that Ami creating her perfect timeline which includes a Sekai / mom that's alive and a Akira that's willing to sleep with her because that could fit into some of the season 1 clues which could also be the entire reason of Kumon-Mi in the first place.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

Hmmm… Ami creating entire timelines… Utilizing similar abilities as Yuu and Akira to do so…

It’s almost like Ami is Akira’s daughter and this is hereditary or something.

 

[Antosha]

Thinking more on this, the "gods" known as Wires, HOPE, and Pareidolia are probably so invested in Akira because they were BORN from him. They are deeply tied to him and if they are supernatural beings manifesting from within a person's psyche, of course they are going to be obsessed with Akira. He is deeply ashamed and traumatized from his past. He has indicated many times that he WANTS to be punished and doesn't understand why he keeps getting away with the stuff he does.

View attachment 4491997
View attachment 4491998

I feel like the different "gods" are each facets of his personality and acting on his true desires.

To punish himself, for the things he's done and the things that have been done unto him. He deserves suffering.
To wallow in his depravity and give in to his darkest desires, for he knows he is a monster.
And even deeper, a HOPE. A desire that through all this pain and suffering, he can still find a place that he feels like he can belong.

Once again I feel parallels to the Monogatari series. For those who aren't familiar:

Spoiler: Monogatari series anime/LN

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Reading LiL I can't help but feel like this story is Akira's own personal hell for himself in some way. A constant struggle between what he truly desires against what he feels like he deserves.
He wants to feel whole, he wants to love and all the things that were denied and stolen from him in his childhood.
He also wants penance, he wants to be punished for taking advantage of others and continuing the cycle of trauma.
He wants to feel important, special. He wants to be a protagonist of a story.
He also feels like he is worthless, he doesn't deserve the spotlight in people's lives. He's a terrible person.
The struggle between them all I feel is where Wires, Pareidolia, and HOPE come in.
The gods aren't making him do these things, not directly. He WANTS them but he's so broken he doesn't understand and his mind is constantly making up excuses and blaming his "gods" on not being able to control the twisted part of him.

View attachment 4492099
View attachment 4492102

It's all Akira, he's talking to different parts of himself. It's an amazing representation of multiple personalities and disassociation.
As to the constant references to games and computer scripts, it's possible Akira had involvement in those in the past and is repressing it, his delusions coming and telling him that this is all a game, a bunch of simulations, etc. We already get him waxing philosophical and spouting poetry everytime he starts to slip because we know Sekai and tutoring were a large part of his childhood, who's to say that computers and games weren't either and we just havent uncovered it yet?
Each chapter, another "god" takes control. Which means a different part of Akira takes the driver's seat. That's why the chapters have different feelings and consequences.
I feel like the story could eventually culminate in Akira slowly becoming more aquainted with these different parts of his personality, learning more and more about them and in turn himself. To the point where they start to become characters themselves and he has to somehow learn to accept them and resolve their own respective arcs perhaps on his journey to ultimately fixing himself.
And this is why it's called Lessons in Love, because it's about learning to love YOURSELF and all of your flaws.
Boom. Bam. Theory over

View attachment 4492194
Lmao case in point.

This (the idea that the various deities/narrators/users/spirits and possibly some of the girls are Akira’s psychological projections) has been my working theory since HOPE and Wires started pushing their way to the fore in Ch 2.

Spoiler: Theory stuff

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

At least that’s been my theory for 2+ chapters. Ask me again when the next update hits.

 

[givemeabeer]

The complaints would have to be specifically about the dream / simulation existing for a purpose.

Otherwise it's just not being happy about my very rough overview about where I think things stand, and I'm in chapter 3.5 so things are bound to change with an entire chapter's worth of events to still go for. Though I'll listen to your ideas if you have any.

So, about the problem I have with the «simulation with a purpose» theory.

Spoiler: My vision of thing

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

For convenience only, from my part, I written this text in french and translate it, with the help of google and my own knowledge, in english.
I also tried to keep thing clear enough, I hope I've done a good job doing so.

 

[shmurfer]

Hmmm… Ami creating entire timelines… Utilizing similar abilities as Yuu and Akira to do so…

Well my vague idea of what's happening is Ami found the wishing well after losing Sekai (and Nozomu) and having Akira broken as a result (since all of the Sekai-Akira stuff did happen for real) and made a bunch wishes in efforts to make a world where she can live with her family again. She wished for a best friend (Maya), then wished for the world, then wished for Akira to be happy or something but that resulted in his and Maya's backstory. This angers Ami so she tries wishing for rivals to Maya (the Nakayamas), Maya isn't able to properly resist her since she's literally her best friend, Akira resists since he's happy, things are said in anger and both the time loop purgatory is created, and all of the memories are fucked with (Except for Maya as a punishment, she had to watch his memories be deleted which is what she saw during the scary room, and then it was threatened to happen again)

And whatever the endgame is (I think ending the purgatory world), I believe it ends with Akira and Makoto going into the wishing well to rescue a trapped Ami.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

Well my vague idea of what's happening is Ami found the wishing well after losing Sekai (and Nozomu) and having Akira broken as a result (since all of the Sekai-Akira stuff did happen for real) and made a bunch wishes in efforts to make a world where she can live with her family again. She wished for a best friend (Maya), then wished for the world, then wished for Akira to be happy or something but that resulted in his and Maya's backstory. This angers Ami so she tries wishing for rivals to Maya (the Nakayamas), Maya isn't able to properly resist her since she's literally her best friend, Akira resists since he's happy, things are said in anger and both the time loop purgatory is created, and all of the memories are fucked with (Except for Maya as a punishment, she had to watch his memories be deleted which is what she saw during the scary room, and then it was threatened to happen again)

And whatever the endgame is (I think ending the purgatory world), I believe it ends with Akira and Makoto going into the wishing well to rescue a trapped Ami.

That sounds plausible, and would be interesting if proven true.

 

[VoidExile]

Guys, it happened again.

Spoiler: First it was Rin, now Uta...

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[SlidingSubject]

My vision of thing

Spoiler: The funny

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

That said, I do agree with you except in some things.

Spoiler: The serious

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[LoveRedHairedGirl]

I found this meme in the Russian LiL community

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[givemeabeer]

It's... kinda not? It has been acknowledged, though mostly in happy events, even in the first one (which is where my personal theory that the ending of Chapter 3 happened because Maya was punished in The Room With Clocks).
And not so much a simulation, but that the world they're living isn't the world they grew up in.

I didn't count the happy event as relevant information for the character, as I don't know if they had complete memory of it.
Or if they care.

So, I interpret it as information for the player/reader. Like the scarf Ayane bring with her. She didn't remember why she have it, but we do.

Personally, as long as it doesn't interfere much with the story, I wouldn't really mind it (even if I'm not fond of it). I mean, in the end, it's just a plot device. And plot devices can be used in both bad (St. Elsewhere ending) and non-bad (Rosalind Shays) ways.

Yep. As I said, if that stay as a world building, I don't care.

 

[jclark1337]

Spoiler: CH 4 interesting dialogue

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.