Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.53.0] [Selebus]

[ComplexOne2]

The unfortunate part is that literally every single person involved, either in this thread or on discord, just wants a good game, and all we have to look forward to in future updates is more self-indulgent, immersion-breaking vitriol in the form of one of the characters going on another petulant fourth-wall-breaking rant to address more of the dev's personal grievances. I miss the pre-remake days

It must be nice to believe something like this but you couldn't be further from the truth, atleast half the people who browse these threads leak the content to spite Sel at this point and people have been calling Sam's post "mature" but it's nothing but gaslighting and victim blaming, if they truly cared they would remove the latest releases and the care packages but they haven't and here we are, I don't expect anything to change in these threads, no matter how hard Sel and the discord homies try.

Well putting that aside there is something else I would like to comment on, for awhile now I've noticed people contiuing to say this place is responsible for 95% of the game's growth and sucess, a sentiment like that maybe nice for the pirates here to make themselves feel better about leaking exclsive content and what not but it's not true it's nowhere near true, it can't be denied that Sel DID come here at one point when Patreon was screwing him over and asked people to move over to SS, which people did at the time, but I honestly think some of you are coming across as very arrogant to say that you're "95%" reponsible for this game growth, I argue 45% is a much better percentage and even that may still be generous, keep in mind at the point the patreon stuff was going down Sel's discord was very active and clearly with everything going on lately it STILL is active and even without the discord, people still saw Sel's request to move over to SS through patreon itself.

Well, like I said before, nothing will change here, espically now that the mods don't care about loli content but it's still very fascinating to watch as this drama continues to unfold.

 

[akselx]

I miss the pre-remake days

He was doing this before remake as well. I remember seeing some new (at that time) happy scene, where the Narrator start going off about fan theories in a really annoyed, condescending fashion, basicity sayng that "u fucking stupids still talk about how all of this is simulation even thought the great I made it perfectly clear on several occasions that it's not the case, or something along those lines. Was really off putting then, makes sense now.

 

[BlackDays]

The unfortunate part is that literally every single person involved, either in this thread or on discord, just wants a good game, and all we have to look forward to in future updates is more self-indulgent, immersion-breaking vitriol in the form of one of the characters going on another petulant fourth-wall-breaking rant to address more of the dev's personal grievances. I miss the pre-remake days

Where those in the rework of ch1? Never replayed, so i guess i missed that. Only know that there is supposed to be something like that. Maybe i wouldn't even get it if i read it.

 

[akselx]

It must be nice to believe something like this but you couldn't be further from the truth, atleast half the people who browse these threads leak the content to spite Sel

True. Remember when it wasn't the case at all? I do. What changed?

at this point and people have been calling Sam's post "mature" but it's nothing but gaslighting and victim blaming,

They called it "mature" because he attempts to explain the situation from both ends, give Sel some benifit of the doubt and take responsibility for some fuck ups on their end. Meanwhile Sel does fine straw man in his announcement section. What a victim, my ass.

if they truly cared

Sam is being all nice (-ish) here, but let's be honest: he likely doesn't give a fuck. Not in a malicious way, but in a "I have little emotional investment and even less time" way. There's perhaps something to be said about the consistentcy of enforcement of rules. I'm not privy to situation about loli content and i'm not sure how exactly it is being moderated, considering that "loli" tag exist. I will say that Sel does not have a moral grounds here, considering his own flip-flopping position on piracy and the fact that he doesn't actually own the assets he makes the game with.

Well putting that aside there is something else I would like to comment on, for awhile now I've noticed people contiuing to say this place is responsible for 95% of the game's growth and sucess,

I don't know about the real percentage, but it's not far from the truth. Thinking otherwise is being willfully ignorant, or indulging in self-delusion.

"95%" reponsible for this game growth, I argue 45% is a much better percentage and even that may still be generous, keep in mind at the point the patreon stuff was going down Sel's discord was very active and clearly with everything going on lately it STILL is active and even without the discord, people still saw Sel's request to move over to SS through patreon itself.

Either I misunderstood you, or you're confusing timeframes here. Usually, when people say this "95%" they talk about initial or overall growth. At the point where Sel were sending SOS here, game could grow on "it's own" without f95 contribution, that's true.

 

[vehemental]

atleast half the people who browse these threads leak the content to spite Sel at this point

Thousands of people browse this thread and 2-3 are leaking content. But it didn't use to be this way - back in the Patreon days, the number of patrons was similar, but updates used to take a few days to leak if they ended up leaking at all. I wonder what changed?

if they truly cared they would remove the latest releases and the care packages and here we are, I don't expect anything to change in these threads, no matter how hard Sel and the discord homies try.

Care about what, Selly reaching his stated goal of making as much money as Summertime Saga? I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of even the less popular games on this site leak pretty quickly here, as sharing and talking about games is what this website is for. So what you want is the staff of this website to sacrifice the desires of their entire community for those of one single already-successful game dev, making an exception for this one game among thousands, because why? He's not making enough money to support all the overhead he has, being a staunchly one-man crew who doesn't even have to pay for assets?

I get that what Selly wants is this thread deleted, but he's being megalomaniacal and irrational, because all that would do is ensure his growth completely and permanently stagnated. Every time this thread pops up on the latest updates page, thousands of people who have never heard of it before get the opportunity to discover it for the first time. Thousands of people who played it or saw it pop up in the past are reminded of its existence. This thread has almost 6 million views. All of those eyeballs come with a conversion rate of people generous enough to support its existence through patronage, which is the only reason he's reached the level of success he has. There is no other place on the internet that offers this kind of exposure, especially for games as depraved as this one. It will NEVER be hosted on Steam or GOG or any other mainstream marketplace at any point in the future, because of both the subject matter and the fact that he doesn't own the copyright on the visual assets.

Well putting that aside there is something else I would like to comment on, for awhile now I've noticed people contiuing to say this place is responsible for 95% of the game's growth and sucess, a sentiment like that maybe nice for the pirates here to make themselves feel better about leaking exclsive content and what not but it's not true it's nowhere near true, it can't be denied that Sel DID come here at one point when Patreon was screwing him over and asked people to move over to SS, which people did at the time, but I honestly think some of you are coming across as very arrogant to say that you're "95%" reponsible for this game growth, I argue 45% is a much better percentage and even that may still be generous, keep in mind at the point the patreon stuff was going down Sel's discord was very active and clearly with everything going on lately it STILL is active and even without the discord, people still saw Sel's request to move over to SS through patreon itself.

Again - I'm interested in what the nuthugger perspective is for how else this game is going to be discoverable. How many people do you think talk to other people about the porn games they play, especially ones of this nature? How many have you, personally? I saw one guy in another game's thread talk about how he got his dad to play and support the game - do you think something similar has ever happened with this one?

Are there some other websites where this game has gotten even 1/10th the exposure it's gotten here? AFAIK, there's only Itch, who are beholden to Paypal and Stripe's content policies, who even you must realize would probably not be OK with processing payments for this game if they knew they were doing it. Luckily since no one here wants to actually harm a game dev, they are unlikely to for the foreseeable future, but that's the only real place this game has to fall back on if this thread goes away, AFAIK.

 

[SymbolicSalad]

It must be nice to believe something like this but you couldn't be further from the truth, atleast half the people who browse these threads leak the content to spite Sel at this point and people have been calling Sam's post "mature" but it's nothing but gaslighting and victim blaming, if they truly cared they would remove the latest releases and the care packages but they haven't and here we are, I don't expect anything to change in these threads, no matter how hard Sel and the discord homies try.

Well putting that aside there is something else I would like to comment on, for awhile now I've noticed people contiuing to say this place is responsible for 95% of the game's growth and sucess, a sentiment like that maybe nice for the pirates here to make themselves feel better about leaking exclsive content and what not but it's not true it's nowhere near true, it can't be denied that Sel DID come here at one point when Patreon was screwing him over and asked people to move over to SS, which people did at the time, but I honestly think some of you are coming across as very arrogant to say that you're "95%" reponsible for this game growth, I argue 45% is a much better percentage and even that may still be generous, keep in mind at the point the patreon stuff was going down Sel's discord was very active and clearly with everything going on lately it STILL is active and even without the discord, people still saw Sel's request to move over to SS through patreon itself.

Well, like I said before, nothing will change here, espically now that the mods don't care about loli content but it's still very fascinating to watch as this drama continues to unfold.

Ermm actually it's more like 100% of the game's growth and success

 

[SymbolicSalad]

Ermm actually it's more like 100% of the game's growth and success

my nerd emote didn't paste into this reply, that's so lame.

 

[Sam]

nothing but gaslighting and victim blaming, if they truly cared they would remove the latest releases and the care packages but they haven't and here we are

At no point did I blame Selebus for anything, I explicitly said that I don't blame him and I made no excuses for piracy. Regarding his older positive thoughts about the site you are free to look through his early post history as well as note the Donor status on the account (they were in 2020). As I said, his opinion gradually changed as the game got more popular, which of course he is entitled to. The crescendo when he edited the OP 3 times and it was reverted are here, here and here, and it's clear there is a misunderstanding here and poor communication from us which I freely admitted to. I don't believe I gave an incorrect assessment but there are always 2 sides to every story, this is ours, inevitable biases and all.

Well putting that aside there is something else I would like to comment on, for awhile now I've noticed people contiuing to say this place is responsible for 95% of the game's growth and sucess, a sentiment like that maybe nice for the pirates here to make themselves feel better about leaking exclsive content and what not but it's not true it's nowhere near true

Selebus made a game that a lot of people clearly love and enjoy, and he is 100% responsible for that, whatever effect F95 had on early/mid/late growth, if any, doesn't change that.

 

[vehemental]

Where those in the rework of ch1? Never replayed, so i guess i missed that. Only know that there is supposed to be something like that. Maybe i wouldn't even get it if i read it.

Yep. Keep in mind this was added months after losing Patreon - hell hath no fury like a dev scorned, I guess.

 

[ReegusLeroy]

Again - I'm interested in what the nuthugger perspective is for how else this game is going to be discoverable. How many people do you think talk to other people about the porn games they play, especially ones of this nature?

The only other place I've seen LiL mentioned aside from here was on a meme thread from 4chan:

 

[akselx]

But it didn't use to be this way - back in the Patreon days, the number of patrons was similar, but updates used to take a few days to leak if they ended up leaking at all.

Hell, I remember it not leaking for a week several times.

How many people do you think talk to other people about the porn games they play, especially ones of this nature? How many have you, personally? I saw one guy in another game's thread talk about how he got his dad to play and support the game - do you think something similar has ever happened with this one?

To be honest, I saw the game on russian sites that deal with porn-related media - games, doujinshi, hentai. It's fairly popular, but I don't know how much it effects the sales. Russians are notorious for being tech savvy when it comes to pirating and certainly not famous for being bi-lingual, so I don't think this popularity translates to a lot of subscriptions.

 

[BlackDays]

Yep. Keep in mind this was added months after losing Patreon - hell hath no fury like a dev scorned, I guess.

View attachment 2366016

Ok, thanks for the effort. But i guess, a bit like i said, i'm somewhat unfazed by it. I mean it's impact on the story or my immersion.
With how big the story already is in terms of readable content i think i already forgot a lot about ch1 and beyond. 5 min after something like that and i'd already forgotten it.

 

[vehemental]

The only other place I've seen LiL mentioned aside from here was on a meme thread from 4chan:

They love it on there!

 

[drandy86]

The unfortunate part is that literally every single person involved, either in this thread or on discord, just wants a good game, and all we have to look forward to in future updates is more self-indulgent, immersion-breaking vitriol in the form of one of the characters going on another petulant fourth-wall-breaking rant to address more of the dev's personal grievances. I miss the pre-remake days

He does have a tendency to cut off his nose to spite his face.

 

[JohnnyRazer]

On a side note, I'm still opposed to enforcing your vision on the developer in many ways (except some technical). Artistic vision and all that shit. I mean if Selebus wants to write his fourth-wall-breaking rants, that's entirely up to him - this is his own game, no point in arguing about it, whether he intends to go up or down the line (especially because he is quite a stubborn guy imo). I personally liked them, they were one of the minor points of attraction for me, at least untill rework (because I just haven't read what's after).
tl;dr Better going down in a personalised demise, than suffer in a clusterfuck of dozens of contradicting influencing opinions from "fans" who have literally no idea about developing a game and just want to scratch their fetishes.

I'm also sceptical about this 95% too, this is pretentious as fuck. But not less that 50%, I think. I learned about the game from itch, but I'm one of the rarer kind, heh.

They love it on there!

View attachment 2366087

As much as I love 4chan, relying on it's denizens'... "educated"... "opinions" is ehhhhhh, probably unwise, but sure is fun to read.

 

[vehemental]

On a side note, I'm still opposed to enforcing your vision on the developer in many ways (except some technical). Artistic vision and all that shit. I mean if Selebus wants to write his fourth-wall-breaking rants, that's entirely up to him - this is his own game, no point in arguing about it, whether he intends to go up or down the line (especially because he is quite a stubborn guy imo). I personally liked them, they were one of the minor points of attraction for me, at least untill rework (because I just haven't read what's after).
tl;dr Better going down in a personalised demise, than suffer in a clusterfuck of dozens of contradicting influencing opinions from "fans" who have literally no idea about developing a game and just want to scratch their fetishes.

If you haven't read the rework, you haven't read the scene I'm talking about. Once you do, if you can't recognize that objectively, any artist airing such a personal grievance in such an unveiled and narrative-jarring way detracts from the artistic integrity of the work as a whole (sorry, "makes it worse", for those coming from the discord )... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. It's amateurish, and not in the charming way that the game used to be amateurish. Saying something like "doing this one thing in particular is dumb" isn't going to lead to a "clusterfuck of dozens of contradicting opinions".

Take the song Ticks and Leeches by Tool for example. Tool was undergoing a heated legal battle with the label they had been signed to at the time, and the song was an expression of their frustration, but it was so thematically consistent with the rest of their work and non-specific that it blended in so perfectly with the rest of the album that you'd never know the backstory - you'd never know there even was a backstory - without knowing that specific piece of information. It even served as a narrative device when combined with the next track, effectively saying that the solution to getting caught up in vitriolic, interpersonal anger was a return to the first principles of humanity, healing the rift between the body and the mind through ego death, and rediscovering the divinity and infinite possibilities of human existence, all through psychedelics.

As much as I love 4chan, relying on it's denizens'... "educated"... "opinions" is ehhhhhh, probably unwise, but sure is fun to read.

Yes, it WOULD be silly to rely on their opinions for anything, but that's the kind of place this game would have to rely on for exposure to new players if this thread went away. Do you see my intention for sharing those posts now?

 

[Deleted member 2223621]

Just log out for about 2 days and went back with some questions.
Can anyone explain why he posts this bc he usually posts this kind of information about the character on discord rather than on f95?
And can someone summary the drama for me too much comment :v

so after selebus's post he made I think like 2 other posts being a shit lord here and he also offered discounts on stuff apparently to come here and make fake accounts to flood the thread with moronic simping. (see the following quoted individual) the mods froze the thread and deleted (or there was some time delay effect idk) all the posts after the initial sel outburst it seems and did it pretty fast before it actually became a problem.

edit: this all happened like within an hour or less

It must be nice to believe something like this but you couldn't be further from the truth, atleast half the people who browse these threads leak the content to spite Sel at this point and people have been calling Sam's post "mature" but it's nothing but gaslighting and victim blaming, if they truly cared they would remove the latest releases and the care packages but they haven't and here we are, I don't expect anything to change in these threads, no matter how hard Sel and the discord homies try.

Well putting that aside there is something else I would like to comment on, for awhile now I've noticed people contiuing to say this place is responsible for 95% of the game's growth and sucess, a sentiment like that maybe nice for the pirates here to make themselves feel better about leaking exclsive content and what not but it's not true it's nowhere near true, it can't be denied that Sel DID come here at one point when Patreon was screwing him over and asked people to move over to SS, which people did at the time, but I honestly think some of you are coming across as very arrogant to say that you're "95%" reponsible for this game growth, I argue 45% is a much better percentage and even that may still be generous, keep in mind at the point the patreon stuff was going down Sel's discord was very active and clearly with everything going on lately it STILL is active and even without the discord, people still saw Sel's request to move over to SS through patreon itself.

Well, like I said before, nothing will change here, espically now that the mods don't care about loli content but it's still very fascinating to watch as this drama continues to unfold.

 

[ocworld]

i am not a pirate but it feels at some point instead of development he start only working on this care packages full year since i even not seeing his post of taking a break from development or roadmap it simple the sign that he slowly lose interest

 

[JohnnyRazer]

If you haven't read the rework, you haven't read the scene I'm talking about. Once you do, if you can't recognize that objectively, any artist airing such a personal grievance in such an unveiled and narrative-jarring way detracts from the artistic integrity of the work as a whole (sorry, "makes it worse", for those coming from the discord )... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. It's amateurish, and not in the charming way that the game used to be amateurish. Saying something like "doing this one thing in particular is dumb" isn't going to lead to a "clusterfuck of dozens of contradicting opinions".

I'm really not a picky reader, but if what you say is true then probably even I will notice it. I'll be re-reading LiL from scratch in the following months, so I'm really curious to see if it's that badly misplaced, because previous ones were more or less moderate to me.

On the latter, I see your point and I most certainly don't want to say that expressing your critique or disapproval is bad or unnecessary, but there's not so much you can and should do to enforce your vision. Say your opinion, but after that it mostly falls on the developer's shoulders (or what's above them) to discern shitty ramblings from sound advices, and if he can't - well you tried, not your fault and no sense pushing further. He must know better than anyone what are the core ideas and principals of his work that no one should tamper with, and where he can compromise.

Of course it's from my little experience, but it's less painful to watch a dev who fails, but is true to himself and his vision. Something like "Yeah, I'm a dick, so what, like it or not, I'm not changing my ways". On the contrary it's really hard to watch soft good guys, who are overwhelmed by a million obscure requests, who answer to every whim of the community. Of course, these are two polars and life is somewhere in between, but I place Selebus closer to the first one. As I see it, despite his increasing toxicity (but who am I to judge lmao) and some questionable ingame moments, the base game and plot are the same and probably will be for some time. But I too don't like where this is going and can only hope that Sel knows when and where to stop - a rare quality in these days. I recall, that so far he managed, but today I was unpleasantly surprised.

Yes, it WOULD be silly to rely on their opinions for anything, but that's the kind of place this game would have to rely on for exposure to new players if this thread went away. Do you see my intention for sharing those posts now?

Eh, kinda yes, kinda no. Arguable. I think at this point LiL is fine on itself without much external advertisment. And probably even should be, because even this not very wide popularity brought a lot of trouble with Patreon, and I'm not sure I want to see what kind of misfortune can bring even wider recognition. But that's just me.

As for the idea of advertising games on 4ch - imo it's too much unpredictable due to its nature. Something might blow, but mostly not, and you have very little control over it. I think, intentional advertising there would more likely backfire you in the face (somewhat like it was with VNDB) and the idea of Selebus fighiting with anon mischiefs in addition to this f95 drama doesn't attract me.

 

[barglenarglezous]

i am not a pirate but it feels at some point instead of development he start only working on this care packages full year since i even not seeing his post of taking a break from development or roadmap it simple the sign that he slowly lose interest

He only comes here when he wants to throw shade at people who hang out here. He limits status updates to the Discord.

There IS a roadmap on the Discord for the next 5 updates.