Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.53.0] [Selebus]

[alex2011]

But I'm pretty sure the whole point of this discussion was about what makes a person good, not just an action in isolation. Saving Rin might be good in isolation, but it does not say anything good about the type of person Sensei is if he did it for manipulative or malicious purposes.

The point was whether intent matters if the result of an action is good, specifically referring to if Sensei were to do something good in game even if he did it for reasons that are not such as serving his interest in sleeping with every student in his class.

My position on that is, no, intent does not matter because the matter of their intent is a separate issue to the good action they performed in the name of that intent. Sensei can have manipulative or malicious intent behind his actions, but that is an issue only after the action is already taken to serve that manipulative or malicious intent, actions which are inherently good in terms of morality.

Everything is connected mate, the game even has a Happy Event called that.

Anyway, Intent is what matters when judging a person (which is what's being discussed). Hence the whole Manslaughter vs Murder stuff in court. They are judged differently for a reason, even though both involved taking a life.

To be frank, the life being saved is the separate issue in this conversation, and of course it matters why a life was saved.

Edit: To relate this to the game, why Maya was saved from being reset, matters. It could even play a part in saving someone down the road or explain why someone else couldn't be saved. Not to mention, how Sensei seemed to save himself at the price of someone (or something) else according to Yasu:

Spoiler

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Surely, this is enough to see that why a life was saved, matters.

Also, neither of these instances suddenly make Sensei a good person, yet a life was saved in both. Including his own at the cost of another, presumably.

It is connected, in the example laid out in the reply above this, Sensei performed an inherently good action in the name of manipulative or otherwise malicious intentions. However, this connection is only relevant as far as it happened, just something to take note of. He still performed an inherently good action that had a morally good outcome and the morally negative would only come in a separate incident later if, probably more like when with Sensei, he tried to use that previous case of inherently good actions to get something in return.

This makes them two separate instances, which have separate moral standings in terms of whether they were good or bad. The inherently good action would make the former a case of morally good and the attempt to use that inherently good action from the past to leverage a specific outcome would make the latter a case of morally bad.

Now, if he tried to hold the inherently good action back to force a girl to let him have what he wants before saving them from whatever the issue is, that would be a case where the morality of his intent comes before the morality of the action itself.

 

[JoeSplainer]

I honestly hate Nodoka. I know the story is going to go dark soon, but Nodoka at the forefront (which she seems to be at the moment) would be a serious downer.

 

[Bingoogus]

I honestly hate Nodoka. I know the story is going to go dark soon, but Nodoka at the forefront (which she seems to be at the moment) would be a serious downer.

Do you hate her as a person or do you hate what she does in the story? Cause this reminds me of, when i was a kid, big brother was a thing and people would always vote out the chaotic people early on cause they were unpopular and the second half of each season was boring as piss without them. You might hate Nodoka, but i hope you can see how she is a good causal instigator of interesting content.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

To judge a character by "a good deed with a hidden ulterior motive" he or she has done for others and see if this person is any good, in my head at least two questions needed to be addressed:

1. What is that motive, and how does the motive rival the deed?
This is important because the answer to the prompt could be simplified into a sum of "how good the deed is" and "how ulterior the motive is".

Using "Sensei saving Rin's life from situations caused by Otoha so that Sensei later can ________" as an example:
The options for ________ are:
- get free coffee for the rest of forever
- have Rin teach him how to play guitars for free
- be on a way better term with Rika and increase the chance of sleeping with Rika
- get flashed by Rin with her finally smiling this time
- increase the chance of sleeping with Rin but still wait for her to graduate to cash out all the affinity points (not happening)
- increase the chance of sleeping with Rin
- increase Rin's trust so much that she lets him stay at the dorm at night and thus you get to take advantage of a sleeping Rin
- brainwash Rin into a devoting sex slave and use her as a threesome plot device
- plan to fuck her brain out in front of HOPE before the snow returns and finally complete his assignment (baseless statement!)
*a note here is that saving someone's life is an extra finicky situation, as your subject will have a harder time denying your advances.

Your answer should vary when facing these different scenarios, but the the point of nope is different from person to person because people weight things differently.

For some, everything is straight up additive and as long as the sum is on the good side then it's a-okay; others care if the motive is of natural progression or a schemed result; some others may tremendously outweigh either the deed or the motive. So this is a game of subjective takes without right or wrong answers until the situation goes to extreme ends.

But the more important question to me is the next one:
2. Will the character still perform the good deed when knowing already that the ulterior motive has no way of fulfilling via the deed? In a roundabout way, this is asking when facing these "a mean to an end" scenarios, does this person care more about the mean or the end?

From Sensei's recent conversation with Yumi on the beach, Sensei started as a plain bad person (cares more about the fruit of helping her) and gradually moved toward a good person (cares more about just helping her). It should be hopefully safe to assume that this attitude can be extrapolated to the case of Rin, as I am pretty biased to think that Sensei will still help her even if his actions don't land him closer to that bi pussy.

TBH, this scenario comes really close to "saving your irl crush from her abusive bf so you have a chance to be with her in the future" if only Rin wasn't underage...You'd be insane not to contemplate on that; but if you're still willing to help her even when she won't turn to you whatsoever, then you're a good person. (a character that comes to mind is Quasimodo, but I must apologize to Quasimodo for putting him next to Sensei for the sake of comparison)

Finally, why don't we just ask Sensei himself if he's a good person or not?!

Spoiler: R U GOOD?!

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[DeSkel15]

The point was whether intent matters if the result of an action is good, specifically referring to if Sensei were to do something good in game even if he did it for reasons that are not such as serving his interest in sleeping with every student in his class.

My position on that is, no, intent does not matter because the matter of their intent is a separate issue to the good action they performed in the name of that intent. Sensei can have manipulative or malicious intent behind his actions, but that is an issue only after the action is already taken to serve that manipulative or malicious intent, actions which are inherently good in terms of morality.


It is connected, in the example laid out in the reply above this, Sensei performed an inherently good action in the name of manipulative or otherwise malicious intentions. However, this connection is only relevant as far as it happened, just something to take note of. He still performed an inherently good action that had a morally good outcome and the morally negative would only come in a separate incident later if, probably more like when with Sensei, he tried to use that previous case of inherently good actions to get something in return.

This makes them two separate instances, which have separate moral standings in terms of whether they were good or bad. The inherently good action would make the former a case of morally good and the attempt to use that inherently good action from the past to leverage a specific outcome would make the latter a case of morally bad.

Now, if he tried to hold the inherently good action back to force a girl to let him have what he wants before saving them from whatever the issue is, that would be a case where the morality of his intent comes before the morality of the action itself.

Nah, the point was "I'm not a religious person, but I often ask myself if a god truly exists and he's going to judge us in the end of times, how would he judge us?" And I stated "For me, Intent has always mattered more than actions. The worst person ever could save your life, but that's only because it benefits them."

Then instead of acknowledging what was said, for some reason, people only see the saving a life part and go "nothing else matters". My original point didn't even involve Sensei.

Anyway, actions alone don't define people, and no action is "inherently good", anyway. Saving a life can easily be a "bad thing" from another point of view. Doing a "good thing" for a selfish reason, doesn't make that person "good". I'm beginning to see this conversation topic is kind of pointless, since the point is just going to be ignored.

 

[JoeSplainer]

Do you hate her as a person or do you hate what she does in the story? Cause this reminds me of, when i was a kid, big brother was a thing and people would always vote out the chaotic people early on cause they were unpopular and the second half of each season was boring as piss without them. You might hate Nodoka, but i hope you can see how she is a good causal instigator of interesting content.

TBH, I don't like the way she's written. Cryptic, while poetic, dialogue gets tiring after a while. And during the last few updates her personality Really started to grate on me. We have So many interesting and fun characters to deal with, and yet we are stuck with an absolute bore. Ami is fun to listen too... So is Ayane, Yumi, Molly, Tsenyo, etc... but we get Nodoka instead.

I'll be fully on board with her character if she goes somewhere, it's just I can't stand her dialogue and diatribes lately. She's...tiring.

 

[DeSkel15]

Do you hate her as a person or do you hate what she does in the story? Cause this reminds me of, when i was a kid, big brother was a thing and people would always vote out the chaotic people early on cause they were unpopular and the second half of each season was boring as piss without them. You might hate Nodoka, but i hope you can see how she is a good causal instigator of interesting content.

Nodoka definitely seems to enjoy her role as the chaotic one:

Spoiler

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[alex2011]

To judge a character by "a good deed with a hidden ulterior motive" he or she has done for others and see if this person is any good, in my head at least two questions needed to be addressed:

1. What is that motive, and how does the motive rival the deed?
This is important because the answer to the prompt could be simplified into a sum of "how good the deed is" and "how ulterior the motive is".

Using "Sensei saving Rin's life from situations caused by Otoha so that Sensei later can ________" as an example:
The options for ________ are:
- get free coffee for the rest of forever
- have Rin teach him how to play guitars for free
- be on a way better term with Rika and increase the chance of sleeping with Rika
- get flashed by Rin with her finally smiling this time
- increase the chance of sleeping with Rin but still wait for her to graduate to cash out all the affinity points (not happening)
- increase the chance of sleeping with Rin
- increase Rin's trust so much that she lets him stay at the dorm at night and thus you get to take advantage of a sleeping Rin
- brainwash Rin into a devoting sex slave and use her as a threesome plot device
- plan to fuck her brain out in front of HOPE before the snow returns and finally complete his assignment (baseless statement!)
*a note here is that saving someone's life is an extra finicky situation, as your subject will have a harder time denying your advances.

Your answer should vary when facing these different scenarios, but the the point of nope is different from person to person because people weight things differently.

For some, everything is straight up additive and as long as the sum is on the good side then it's a-okay; others care if the motive is of natural progression or a schemed result; some others may tremendously outweigh either the deed or the motive. So this is a game of subjective takes without right or wrong answers until the situation goes to extreme ends.

But the more important question to me is the next one:
2. Will the character still perform the good deed when knowing already that the ulterior motive has no way of fulfilling via the deed? In a roundabout way, this is asking when facing these "a mean to an end" scenarios, does this person care more about the mean or the end?

From Sensei's recent conversation with Yumi on the beach, Sensei started as a plain bad person (cares more about the fruit of helping her) and gradually moved toward a good person (cares more about just helping her). It should be hopefully safe to assume that this attitude can be extrapolated to the case of Rin, as I am pretty biased to think that Sensei will still help her even if his actions don't land him closer to that bi pussy.

TBH, this scenario comes really close to "saving your irl crush from her abusive bf so you have a chance to be with her in the future" if only Rin wasn't underage...You'd be insane not to contemplate on that; but if you're still willing to help her even when she won't turn to you whatsoever, then you're a good person. (a character that comes to mind is Quasimodo, but I must apologize to Quasimodo for putting him next to Sensei for the sake of comparison)

Finally, why don't we just ask Sensei himself if he's a good person or not?!

Spoiler: R U GOOD?!

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Being extra finicky is exactly why I used that specific thing as an example. As far as what he might hope to gain, I could potentially see the first two happening without hesitation, she might even offer it herself especially lifetime coffee for free, which I would assume really means on her.

With the second question, that's sort of what I was getting at with the last part of my previous comment. Taking action to force the outcome that otherwise would not happen, forcing the now victim to make a decision between their original predicament and the terms that they would have to agree to in order to be saved. Make no mistake, Sensei is still a bad person, but bad people are not incapable of good things.

Nah, the point was "I'm not a religious person, but I often ask myself if a god truly exists and he's going to judge us in the end of times, how would he judge us?" And I stated "For me, Intent has always mattered more than actions. The worst person ever could save your life, but that's only because it benefits them."

Then instead of acknowledging what was said, for some reason, people only see the saving a life part and go "nothing else matters". My original point didn't even involve Sensei.

Anyway, actions alone don't define people, and no action is "inherently good", anyway. Saving a life can easily be a "bad thing" from another point of view. Doing a "good thing" for a selfish reason, doesn't make that person "good". I'm beginning to see this conversation topic is kind of pointless, since the point is just going to be ignored.

And for me, the person still saved me, whether it benefits them is of no consequence since I was already saved, but it would be of consequence if they were to force me to decide between doing what they want to be saved and not being saved.

Involving Sensei was more of a relating it to the game thing to keep things from going too far off topic and not attracting the wrath of the mods.

Okay, so Sensei finds Rin being beaten by Otoha, which I could honestly see actually happening, not gonna lie, and decides to help because Rin might reward him later by being more open to his advances. He pulls Otoha off of Rin and keeps her restrained so Rin can get away. In this example, he saved Rin from taking injuries and potentially even dying from the blunt force trauma caused by Otoha. Yes, he did it to get Rin to be more open to him, but he still saved her.

The above is not an inherently good action? Saving a life is never bad, it cannot be, including people actually trying to end it. This wasn't about the person being good, it was about their action being good. As I said above, bad people can do good things, but good people can also do bad things. Sensei is a bad person, this is indisputably true, but in the example above, he did a good thing. He's done several in the game as well despite being a bad person, sometimes with the motive to make the girls easier to manipulate into sex, sometimes without a bad reason or any reason at all. He helped Yumi get a job, he was there for Rin when she failed to get Chika and when she would be cutting herself, but he also did things to Molly and kissed Yumi without consent.

 

[Bingoogus]

TBH, I don't like the way she's written. Cryptic, while poetic, dialogue gets tiring after a while. And during the last few updates her personality Really started to grate on me. We have So many interesting and fun characters to deal with, and yet we are stuck with an absolute bore. Ami is fun to listen too... So is Ayane, Yumi, Molly, Tsenyo, etc... but we get Nodoka instead.

I'll be fully on board with her character if she goes somewhere, it's just I can't stand her dialogue and diatribes lately. She's...tiring.

Fair enough. There's a line in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2 where Kain says to Raziel "hate me, but do it honestly" and that line has stuck with me ever since i heard it. It's perfectly fine to hate characters, but always be sure that hate is well placed for even though we hate them, the Joffreys and Dolores Umbridges of fiction serve a good purpose in their stories and things would be much more boring without them.

 

[DeSkel15]

TBH, I don't like the way she's written. Cryptic, while poetic, dialogue gets tiring after a while. And during the last few updates her personality Really started to grate on me. We have So many interesting and fun characters to deal with, and yet we are stuck with an absolute bore. Ami is fun to listen too... So is Ayane, Yumi, Molly, Tsenyo, etc... but we get Nodoka instead.

I'll be fully on board with her character if she goes somewhere, it's just I can't stand her dialogue and diatribes lately. She's...tiring.

Well, I definitely think she's going somewhere, she somewhat implied it:

Spoiler

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In a meta kind of way.

Personally, I've never been bored by Nodoka though so I doubt I could see your point of view.

At the moment I'm eagerly waiting for her to reveal what she found out about Ami, which is apparently going to be a notable "hit" to Sensei:

Spoiler

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[JoeSplainer]

It's not so much I don't see her (Nodoka) going anywhere, it's just that I don't want her to be the main "teller of the story" if that makes sense. I just got sick of her being the main lore dumper. That's totally fine if you're not bored by her, it's just that after going through the last, IDK, 2-3 hours of story I got Really sick of Nodoka. I didn't like her as a person after the Yumi thing granted, but her dialogue and the way she told the story made me a little worried that future story telling might be as obtuse as her. LiL is , of course, an obtuse story, but I thought the other charectors could tell the story so much better.

Don't take anything I said as too serious, I was just kinda down on Nodoka as a story telling device after being annoyed by her. Not her as a separate character.

 

[DeSkel15]

Sensei is a bad person, this is indisputably true, but in the example above, he did a good thing. He's done several in the game as well despite being a bad person, sometimes with the motive to make the girls easier to manipulate into sex, sometimes without a bad reason or any reason at all. He helped Yumi get a job, he was there for Rin when she failed to get Chika and when she would be cutting herself, but he also did things to Molly and kissed Yumi without consent.

I've already replied to the other stuff and see no reason to repeat myself, so I'll focus on this part.

Which example was supposed to be without a bad or any reason at all? Because Sensei still wants to fuck Yumi, masturbates to fantasies of her obsessively, and on top of that, he seems to feel somewhat guilty for forcing himself on her before. Sensei definitely isn't just helping Yumi out of the goodness in his heart, and actually seems to consider her an idiot for trusting him:

Spoiler

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Also Yumi doesn't have a job as Sensei kind of got distracted, so she's been looking alone lately.

Even him being there for Rin was still due to him wanting to fuck her, he's also partly responsible for why she got rejected as her crush likes him, and he could have been a bad homie as well, so he may be feeling some guilt from her crying (he did mention a part of him wanted to apologize, later on). In retrospect he may have even gotten some satisfaction from Rin's suffering considering Sensei has admitted:

Spoiler

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He seems to have grown to care about Rin, but that isn't the only reason he tries to be there for her.

It's kind of difficult to recall anything he's done that doesn't at least seem to have an ulterior motive, tbh. Sensei isn't exactly altruistic.

 

[Scorn.]

Hey, guys, just wanted to ask if the care packages are safe to use? Thanks in advance

 

[1804maya]

As the link above does not work anymore:
Can anyone please provide the care package #7 (or a link to it)?

Thanks in advance!

i upload them, they last about a week, usually someone who manages OP adds more permanent links to the first page by that time

 

[LoveWhiteHairedGirl]

Do you hate her as a person or do you hate what she does in the story? Cause this reminds me of, when i was a kid, big brother was a thing and people would always vote out the chaotic people early on cause they were unpopular and the second half of each season was boring as piss without them. You might hate Nodoka, but i hope you can see how she is a good causal instigator of interesting content.

I hate Nodoka both for her actions and as a person.
But as a character she is definetely good one. She is created to be like this, I guess.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Hey, guys, just wanted to ask if the care packages are safe to use? Thanks in advance

Replace the gui file provided also at the first page to dodge game bricking and saves purging; read the post about disable DRM before continuing. Make a separate copy of the entire LiL to avoid any unforeseen shenanigan (and perhaps keep that copy for the sole purpose of **)

 

[alex2011]

I've already replied to the other stuff and see no reason to repeat myself, so I'll focus on this part.

Which example was supposed to be without a bad or any reason at all? Because Sensei still wants to fuck Yumi, masturbates to fantasies of her obsessively, and on top of that, he seems to feel somewhat guilty for forcing himself on her before. Sensei definitely isn't just helping Yumi out of the goodness in his heart, and actually seems to consider her an idiot for trusting him:

Spoiler

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Also Yumi doesn't have a job as Sensei kind of got distracted, so she's been looking alone lately.

Even him being there for Rin was still due to him wanting to fuck her, he's also partly responsible for why she got rejected as her crush likes him, and he could have been a bad homie as well, so he may be feeling some guilt from her crying (he did mention a part of him wanted to apologize, later on). In retrospect he may have even gotten some satisfaction from Rin's suffering considering Sensei has admitted:

Spoiler

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He seems to have grown to care about Rin, but that isn't the only reason he tries to be there for her.

It's kind of difficult to recall anything he's done that doesn't at least seem to have an ulterior motive, tbh. Sensei isn't exactly altruistic.

The in game examples without bad or no reason would be the first two inline spoilers. Those things were done with no apparent reason behind them or at least no reason which is morally bad despite Sensei's overall goal since the start of the game. Yes, he still wants to fuck both of the girls in those examples, but this is not portrayed as why he did the actions in those examples like a majority of his actions are. Also, yeah, he does consider her an idiot for trusting him and he's right for considering her an idiot for trusting the guy who forced a kiss on her before this that she still clearly remembers even well after the point where she is shown to be trusting him enough to allow the example in the inline spoiler. You would think it would be smarter not even to allow him in at all after that, I would have locked the door and told him to go away in her position, even if he was genuinely there to help, and been ready to defend myself in case he tried to let himself in.

He didn't have to help her with that, but he did and he didn't show any apparent bad reasoning for it, his reasoning isn't really apparent at all really. Yes, I'm aware of her situation as it stands now as far as the job thing, but he still tried to help her. It's actually not his fault she doesn't have one, it's her attitude being one of the big factors, nobody would hire someone that abrasive for very long if at all.

As far as Rin, yes, he wants to fuck her, that's been his goal with all the girls since the beginning. However, he does not show this as his reasoning for being there when she goes into her depressed state or is upset like with the Chika rejection. Also, only in the bad homie route is it his fault that Chika rejected her, he did nothing with Chika in the good homie route. He cannot control how Chika feels and she already felt something for him in both cases.

He's by no means altruistic and he's as bad as people come without being downright evil, but again, bad people are not incapable of good things.

 

[JelF547]

Honestly, that begs the question, if Nodoka turns out to be the face of Chapter 4, I wonder how everyone will take it?

Nodoka being the main girl for a chapter like Ayane seemed to be in Chapter 3, and Maya in Chapter 2, seems.. interesting. Might actually get some answers at least.

I would not care at all. If I would be asked to label chapters with ayane/ami/maya, I'l make Ayane face of chapter 2 and Maya face of chapter 3. Maybe I just don't get which kind of emphasis that characters got in corresponding chapters

 

[DeSkel15]

I would not care at all. If I would be asked to label chapters with ayane/ami/maya, I'l make Ayane face of chapter 2 and Maya face of chapter 3. Maybe I just don't get which kind of emphasis that characters got in corresponding chapters

The Chapters, in theory, seem to represent when characters became truly important to Sensei.

Chapter 1 is when he relearns to love Ami, and decides how to move forward in their relationship. Chapter 2 has Maya go from mysterious and mean, to pitiable and vulnerable. Sensei got her that scarf at the end of Chapter 1, and by the end of Chapter 2, he's celebrating her bday with her on more or less a date.

End of Chapter 2/Beginning of Chapter 3, I think is when he first said he loved Ayane to calm her down. She's grown more important throughout the chapter.

By Chapter 3, he's also considered Ami and Maya the two most important figures in his life:

Spoiler

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and they were the faces of previous chapters, so Ayane might be in 3rd place. Albeit, considering all the recent Niki, and Noriko stuff, I'm not confident about that.

If this trend continues then Chapter 4 might lead to Sensei falling for Nodoka which would be quite an adventure considering he barely considers her human. I can definitely see Niki or Noriko being the face of Chapter 4 though.

 

[DeSkel15]

The in game examples without bad or no reason would be the first two inline spoilers. Those things were done with no apparent reason behind them or at least no reason which is morally bad despite Sensei's overall goal since the start of the game. Yes, he still wants to fuck both of the girls in those examples, but this is not portrayed as why he did the actions in those examples like a majority of his actions are. Also, yeah, he does consider her an idiot for trusting him and he's right for considering her an idiot for trusting the guy who forced a kiss on her before this that she still clearly remembers even well after the point where she is shown to be trusting him enough to allow the example in the inline spoiler. You would think it would be smarter not even to allow him in at all after that, I would have locked the door and told him to go away in her position, even if he was genuinely there to help, and been ready to defend myself in case he tried to let himself in.

He didn't have to help her with that, but he did and he didn't show any apparent bad reasoning for it, his reasoning isn't really apparent at all really. Yes, I'm aware of her situation as it stands now as far as the job thing, but he still tried to help her. It's actually not his fault she doesn't have one, it's her attitude being one of the big factors, nobody would hire someone that abrasive for very long if at all.

As far as Rin, yes, he wants to fuck her, that's been his goal with all the girls since the beginning. However, he does not show this as his reasoning for being there when she goes into her depressed state or is upset like with the Chika rejection. Also, only in the bad homie route is it his fault that Chika rejected her, he did nothing with Chika in the good homie route. He cannot control how Chika feels and she already felt something for him in both cases.

He's by no means altruistic and he's as bad as people come without being downright evil, but again, bad people are not incapable of good things.

Those examples do have bad, and multiple reasons though (as I went over), so it seems pretty flawed.

Anyone can do "good things", but that doesn't mean that they do them for a "good reason". Hence my initial point.