Let's discuss Corruption

[TheHighSpire]

Hello there!

So, I decided to make a "definition" of Corruption games. The thing is that there are a ton of corruption games out there, but I don't really find that all of them are about corruption.
But, if you don't want to read my reasoning, and just the rules, then here they are:
1. Forced actions cannot corrupt. Being raped, drugged or forced to do something won't corrupt you, but will instead traumatize you. The MC has to freely choose the Corrupt path, and must be able to decline it as well.
2. Corruption does not lead to a general acceptance of being groped or raped. Instead, Corruption leads to the MC being more likely to consider various "bargains" and over time pushes her boundaries to accept them.
3. There must always be an alternative to the corrupt path, otherwise the choice isn't free. The corrupt path can be the easy path - like getting a better grade etc.
4. The MC must know what is going on. You cannot be corrupted if you have no clue of what is happening around you. Instead, that will just confuse or even traumatize you. Entering the bargain is a conscious choice.


I will make some examples throughout this post. These examples might be inaccurate in terms of a specific setting in some games, but they still work in general.

This is what I believe is the first misconception of corruption: The misconception is that some believe that a forced action can corrupt.
In my opinion it can't. Being forced to do something can lead to trauma, not corruption. Corruption, in my opinion, happens when you enter the "bargain" willingly. For instance if you pass an exam with A+ then there's nobody who can blackmail you. Sure some games might just construct the setting in a way that the examiner says "well, I have complete power, do what I ask or fail". But that is just poor writing.

Say that you pass with a C but you actually need a B or higher to get into the academy that you dreamed of, then the examiner might say "well, you are a couple of points too few to get a B ... but if you show me your boobs... then maybe I can "miscalculate" a few points in your favor". At this point the Protagonist will have two options; 1. Accept that she can't enter the academy right away as she had hoped. 2. That she will make a compromise and do what is asked of her. Such an event will emphasize that she has a choice, and that she entered the bargain willingly.

This leads me to the second misconception: That the protagonist somehow will start to like when some stranger grope her or rapes her.
As established, corruption can happen when it is willingly accepted. Some games who accept the first "rule of corruption" readily falls into the other pit which is that now she likes it = she will now like it all the time. That is not the case. A very corrupted person might not necessarily like that some stranger gropes him/her. Neither does it necessarily mean that the she will accept a proposal. But it will make her more likely to accept more and more wild proposals. At least she might consider them, but it is not a given that she will accept. Many games treat corruption as X amount = Now the person will of course accept to sleep with everybody.

The third rule is that there must be an alternative and the Corrupt path will initially seem like the easy road.
This alternative will initially/usually seem worse than the "corruption path". So as with example from before, the examiner asks if you want to strip and he will add a few points so that you will get the B. The MC should be able to decline the option and take another path to their objective. This path may be harder, worse and so on, but the choice must be there. If it isn't, then the game falls into the first misconception. One of the ways to become corrupted is by slowly adapting to get what you want by trading yourself, your self-worth and dignity. Thus, an increasingly corrupted MC will be more likely accept wilder propositions as long as she/he stands to gain access to the "easy road".

The fourth rule: The MC should know what is going on.
Perhaps its because I'm tired of dumb as a rock MC's, but the MC should know what is going on. If you are to be corrupted, then the MC need to know what is going on. Whether that is because she allows a stranger to grope her in return for a ride or if she strips to get a better grade. In both instances the MC should realize that the perpetrator wants her. If she allows/accept the bargain, then that will slowly corrupt her. If she don't know what is going on or don't understand it, then she'll probably just be confused and not corrupted. Taking the corrupt path is a conscious choice.


These are the "rules" that I have for what "corruption" entails. It's by no means exhaustive, and it probably have its flaws. In any case, I look forward to what you make of this, and what you consider is a good rule/definition for corruption.


- TheHighSpire

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

I definitely prefer your ideal path to corruption as opposed to non-con, but it's not the only one. Fetishizing fears, insecurities and trauma is definitely a thing. Years of self-esteem issues and being shamed can lead to approaching sexuality like

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, for example.

Personally, I generally consider rape to be a garbage trope and something I actively avoid (which rules out a good 95% of Japanese games) exactly because of what you said, it's not a believable path to moral degeneration the way it's depicted in 99% of games. The only game where I tolerate it is Corrupted Saviors, because there it's depicted a little better (despite the victims being superheroines, go figure): they do not start to enjoy being molested, except with actions that are specifically focused on their pleasure and on masochism. Heroines that lose their virginity will become more promiscuous, since they feel they've lost their "purity" and that they can be more in control of their sexuality that way, as opposed to just being targets for abuse all the time. Similarly for heroines that have been stripped and humiliated in public, they develop a fetish for exhibitionism as a way of coping with their trauma. These are choices, albeit ones that are made as a result of non-con. And it's undeniably a form of corruption, even if it doesn't make them enjoy being subjected to the type of behavior that traumatized them in the first place.

One avenue to corruption that's rarely explored is orgasm denial. Imagine not being allowed to cum, and masturbation just leaves you hornier. Eventually you struggle to think of anything but sex as your body pleads for the release it thinks you can provide. This can be non-con and it can work on anyone that has a sex drive, no matter how prudish they are with others. A fun way of breaking down inhibitions. Technically you're not being forced to do anything, but you're having your own urges turned against you by denying you your means of controlling them. iNSight of you is undeniably based on non-con, yet also one of the most satifying trainer-style games for me.

 

[Little_Devil]

I agree with you both however there's also coaching where the person is aware of their surroundings but placed their trust in a person power which will to the desired effect of been free and uplifted for example if somebody is in therapy. The therapist can take full advantage of the situation depending on time and on trust. I myself prefer a slow corruption then just the MC accepting everything however I do not see a lot of games like this.

If you can change a person's values then I believe that is a form of corruption weather it is for the better or worse.
In my personal experience if the parents accept it then the rest will follow.

 

[Deleted member 3145675]

Yup,
That's exactly what His Majesty Emperor Palpatine (the Wise and Powerful) did to Anakin.

(All Hail The Emperor)

(It also works IRL)

 

[ChaosCircle]

I agree with this definition for corruption. If it isn't willing bargaining, its too quickly devolves into non-con.

 

[lazymunchlax]

Say that you pass with a C but you actually need a B or higher to get into the academy that you dreamed of, then the examiner might say "well, you are a couple of points too few to get a B ... but if you show me your boobs... then maybe I can "miscalculate" a few points in your favor". At this point the Protagonist will have two options; 1. Accept that she can't enter the academy right away as she had hoped. 2. That she will make a compromise and do what is asked of her. Such an event will emphasize that she has a choice, and that she entered the bargain willingly.

As much as I like and agree with this notion, I do have to ask how you would implement this into a VN? For example, does the good path in this regard result in you simply not achieving your goal of college? Or does the author have to provide a more "Difficult" path? If it's the latter, what constitutes the difficult path? Do I simply add in mass amounts of grinding? Make them waste 10x as much time to get to college.

The real question here is, am I making it more difficult for the Audience, as well as the character, or is this added difficulty solely for the main character? And how do you think it'd be good to portray that in a VN?

 

[Pretentious Goblin]

Say that you pass with a C but you actually need a B or higher to get into the academy that you dreamed of, then the examiner might say "well, you are a couple of points too few to get a B ... but if you show me your boobs... then maybe I can "miscalculate" a few points in your favor". At this point the Protagonist will have two options; 1. Accept that she can't enter the academy right away as she had hoped. 2. That she will make a compromise and do what is asked of her. Such an event will emphasize that she has a choice, and that she entered the bargain willingly.

As much as I like and agree with this notion, I do have to ask how you would implement this into a VN? For example, does the good path in this regard result in you simply not achieving your goal of college? Or does the author have to provide a more "Difficult" path? If it's the latter, what constitutes the difficult path? Do I simply add in mass amounts of grinding? Make them waste 10x as much time to get to college.

The real question here is, am I making it more difficult for the Audience, as well as the character, or is this added difficulty solely for the main character? And how do you think it'd be good to portray that in a VN?

I think Kingdom of Deception has a good example of this near the start of the game. Sabia finds herself destitute with really nothing to her name besides the rags she's wearing. She's an outsider in an orc camp, can't go back to civilization and has to prove herself soon, using gear she's earned on her own. She starts cleaning trash, earning practically nothing. Then she notices the area set aside for prostitution, and realizes any one of the sex workers earns several times what she's currently earning, for less effort. And it's not like cleaning up after orcs has much dignity in it, either.

So the game lets the player decide whether to go for it or not. Prostitution earns quick cash and sex scenes, but doesn't help with training and leads to some scorn once Sabia is inducted into the tribe (can't remember if this has an impact on the gameplay tho). Doing it the hard way means a bit more grinding as well as possibly seeing more of other content, especially the bar wench job, which is sort of a lesser evil and has a dilemma of its own. Or the player can decide their Sabia is too proud for both jobs, and there are still other ways to earn the money she needs.

 

[DuniX]

Corruption is just a number that goes up.

 

[TheHighSpire]

Personally, I generally consider rape to be a garbage trope and something I actively avoid (which rules out a good 95% of Japanese games) exactly because of what you said, it's not a believable path to moral degeneration the way it's depicted in 99% of games.

(...) Similarly for heroines that have been stripped and humiliated in public, they develop a fetish for exhibitionism as a way of coping with their trauma. These are choices, albeit ones that are made as a result of non-con. And it's undeniably a form of corruption, even if it doesn't make them enjoy being subjected to the type of behavior that traumatized them in the first place.

Rape is a garbage trope when it comes corruption - at least if you go by the rules I put forth. Japanese games can be good, but they are often spinning in circles around the same tropes, which can become stale and boring.

You are right, that it can lead to corruption, but I'm also bit in two minds about it. Because, say these heroines were raped - that is non-con, which cannot corrupt. Instead they become traumatized. So, to deal with this trauma they decide to have more and more sex which then corrupts. I can follow the argument, but the question is if what prompts them to take these actions should be consensual as well? But I suppose not, after all; the example follows most of the rules.

I agree with you both however there's also coaching where the person is aware of their surroundings but placed their trust in a person power which will to the desired effect of been free and uplifted for example if somebody is in therapy. The therapist can take full advantage of the situation depending on time and on trust. I myself prefer a slow corruption then just the MC accepting everything however I do not see a lot of games like this.

If you can change a person's values then I believe that is a form of corruption weather it is for the better or worse.
In my personal experience if the parents accept it then the rest will follow.

I agree. And you are right that there are nuances that should be considered. But in case of your example, a person who finds their therapists suggestion unreasonable would decline or find another therapist. But it is important that the MC consciously accept what they are doing. If the therapists drugs the MC to take advantage of him/her, then that won't corrupt the MC.

As much as I like and agree with this notion, I do have to ask how you would implement this into a VN? For example, does the good path in this regard result in you simply not achieving your goal of college? Or does the author have to provide a more "Difficult" path? If it's the latter, what constitutes the difficult path? Do I simply add in mass amounts of grinding? Make them waste 10x as much time to get to college.

The real question here is, am I making it more difficult for the Audience, as well as the character, or is this added difficulty solely for the main character? And how do you think it'd be good to portray that in a VN?

Many rules of theories dies on the alter on how to portray in practical terms. I dislike mindless grinding which mostly becomes repetitive busy-work. I don't think a VN has to show you grinding some lame job, taking extra classes and so on. It can rather quickly show the MC doing those things or the MC is a bit down about not going straight towards their objective etc. This could come at a cost of other things - if the VN track relationships with the MC's friends, then perhaps they will suffer because now the MC must focus much more on studies/jobs. But, it doesn't have to lead to a ton of grinding for the player, as long as the player understands that the MC has taken the harder route in return for keeping their dignity.

I like Flesh Prison's example as well. Shabia has a choice, and she is aware of what she is doing. She can decide to not take the easy route, but that will lead to an alternative and harder route.

Corruption is just a number that goes up.

That is certainly how it is portrayed in many games. X corruption = now you'll blow that random dude. X corruption more = now you'll even have sex with a horse. You'll even gain corruption in many games by being groped by strangers. There's no logic to it.

 

[Deleted member 3145675]

Say that you pass with a C but you actually need a B or higher to get into the academy that you dreamed of, then the examiner might say "well, you are a couple of points too few to get a B ... but if you show me your boobs... then maybe I can "miscalculate" a few points in your favor". At this point the Protagonist will have two options; 1. Accept that she can't enter the academy right away as she had hoped. 2. That she will make a compromise and do what is asked of her. Such an event will emphasize that she has a choice, and that she entered the bargain willingly.

As much as I like and agree with this notion, I do have to ask how you would implement this into a VN? For example, does the good path in this regard result in you simply not achieving your goal of college? Or does the author have to provide a more "Difficult" path? If it's the latter, what constitutes the difficult path? Do I simply add in mass amounts of grinding? Make them waste 10x as much time to get to college.

The real question here is, am I making it more difficult for the Audience, as well as the character, or is this added difficulty solely for the main character? And how do you think it'd be good to portray that in a VN?

Hi,
Problem in many "games" is that the options proposed to the MC only have a few possible outcome
to the Topic: will you suck your teacher's dick to get A as a final grade answer are:
- NO WAY

Spoiler: outcome

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- OK I'll suck the bastard but I don't like it!

Spoiler: outcome

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-Not Only do I suck him gladly but I let him fuck my ass (twice)

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In other words - chosing not to be a manwhore or a slut in a porn game will get you nowhere - which is kinda logical in a way - but in order to enjoy the game you have to go full corruption/slutification/bimbofication etc... because of the core design of the game.
(and because it's porn)

 

[TheHighSpire]

It will ofcourse depend on the story. Generally though, I do appreciate a good story. I mean, if all I wanted was to jump straight to the action then I'd watch porn and just skip to the parts that I want. But porn games are both porn and game, which to me also entails a story. Many of them also have a story, a setting and some characters. Unfortunately, most of the porn game developers aren't exactly gifted a great writing ability, so the stories has a tendency of falling short.

In other words - chosing not to be a manwhore or a slut in a porn game will get you nowhere - which is kinda logical in a way - but in order to enjoy the game you have to go full corruption/slutification/bimbofication etc... because of the core design of the game.
(and because it's porn)

Well, I understand what you mean, but to me that isn't logical at all, and it takes away from the corruption games. What makes a corruption game interesting is that the MC makes compromises to obtain what they want. But, there isn't any compromise if there is no choice - and so you don't become corrupted. So, there has to be a choice and that choice should lead down the story. It doesn't have to mean a ton of grinding either; a skilled writer could probably find some ways to describe how the MC had to work really hard/take extra classes/etc. This is all part of character arc, which helps flesh out the story and determine what sort of character you want the MC to be.

 

[Deleted member 3145675]

It will ofcourse depend on the story. Generally though, I do appreciate a good story. I mean, if all I wanted was to jump straight to the action then I'd watch porn and just skip to the parts that I want. But porn games are both porn and game, which to me also entails a story. Many of them also have a story, a setting and some characters. Unfortunately, most of the porn game developers aren't exactly gifted a great writing ability, so the stories has a tendency of falling short.



Well, I understand what you mean, but to me that isn't logical at all, and it takes away from the corruption games. What makes a corruption game interesting is that the MC makes compromises to obtain what they want. But, there isn't any compromise if there is no choice - and so you don't become corrupted. So, there has to be a choice and that choice should lead down the story. It doesn't have to mean a ton of grinding either; a skilled writer could probably find some ways to describe how the MC had to work really hard/take extra classes/etc. This is all part of character arc, which helps flesh out the story and determine what sort of character you want the MC to be.

yup,
but that reminds me of a philosophical discourse regarding two characters (Pascal and Descartes I think) where the conclusion was that one was describing the world how it was and the other how the world should be.
(you're on the "should be" side)

 

[lazymunchlax]

It doesn't have to mean a ton of grinding either; a skilled writer could probably find some ways to describe how the MC had to work really hard/take extra classes/etc. This is all part of character arc, which helps flesh out the story and determine what sort of character you want the MC to be.

Yeah but it plays into my point of "Cost to the Character" and "Cost to the Player". I don't need to give you a choice because, you're here to play Corruption. Good choices could just result in a Game Over with some courtesy Vanilla scenes. The question is, if I wanted to craft a game where I wanted the Player themself to make the choice, is there an alternative to simply grinding where I could have two viable paths, but I'm actively trying to convince you to go down the corruption path, all the while rewarding those who stick to the non-corruption path in the long run?

 

[Deleted member 3145675]

Yeah but it plays into my point of "Cost to the Character" and "Cost to the Player". I don't need to give you a choice because, you're here to play Corruption. Good choices could just result in a Game Over with some courtesy Vanilla scenes. The question is, if I wanted to craft a game where I wanted the Player themself to make the choice, is there an alternative to simply grinding where I could have two viable paths, but I'm actively trying to convince you to go down the corruption path, all the while rewarding those who stick to the non-corruption path in the long run?

The only way that would make sense to solve your dilemma would be to have a game with a Low corruption path and a High corruption path (NO non corruption) and to tag your game has "frikkin corruption game" (not avoidable).
so only 2 paths who could share a lot of resources with only a few different scenes outcome - you could promote it as "how much corruption will you accept/handle/tolerate/gladlywelcome?"
there still could be a possible resistance but no avoidance.

 

[telotelo]

This is problematic tbh
the (moral) corruption itself require some shifting (either slowly or immediately)
and at some point it need 'a little push' (read:coercion) so the one that will become corrupted can go beyond their usual option (to make that shift)
good corruption is at best, imo, provide illusion of free will to make whoever watch see the shift as inevitable
the shift is the most important thing in defining corruption rather than consensual or not (imo)

How?
I'll take Pyorgara's as sample, when you look at it clearly on premise alone, this smells non-con
most of their game give perspective of corrupter
and the thumb rule of corrupter is you never try to chew what you can't swallow (or sometimes gulp)
corruption with this approach can be seen as consensual, because whatever method they use, in the end the shift happen
and once it happen this carrot-and-stick or whatever used before become irrelevant
that's why quality like feisty, prude, adamant, pristine is good corruption material for a story rather than malleable and morally vague, because the story-writer can present to us how is the shift inevitable for this kind of people
conditioning that wrapped-up good make it looks like suggestion (read:coercion)

as for the different outcome in the epilogue, i remember Hearst or Torrance for this case
good corruption shift within, and if in the process of corrupting while you watch, you can still think of different outcome (maybe happy ending), it fails to present

sorry for the rant, moral degeneration tend to do that

 

[khumak]

To me there's a few important considerations for corruption.

1. People generally are going to act in their own self interest. That can sometimes include doing something they would rather not do to get something they want in return. Prostitutes fuck random guys, not because they want to but because they get money for it. Blackmail works because whatever threat the blackmailer is using presumably goes away if you give them what they want. That doesn't mean they'll ever decide they like whatever that was.
2. Most people have certain lines they won't cross no matter what. You can push people farther than they might otherwise go on their own but you can't get them to do something that is completely against their nature.
3. Repetition does not magically make someone like something they hate. If they like it and just don't know it yet that's different (like someone who ends up liking bondage but initially has never tried it so doesn't know she likes it).

To me corruption only really works if the character has a hidden desire that they themselves don't know about and the corruption just introduces them to something they have an innate desire for and just didn't know about. For that to work you need to set up some sort of backstory for that character where that makes sense though. It needs to be justified somehow. Either it needs to tie into some desire we already know she has or we need to see a backstory that could plausibly explain some desire we don't know about yet.

 

[Deleted member 3086194]

From reading everyone takes and from my own experience, it seems like "corruption" tag can mean so many different things, unfortunately most of the time its like DuniX says, just a variable that gets incremented every time somebody bumps into you. I agree with what OP says though, in particular the second point; sufficient corruption shouldn't force you down the corrupt path immediately, it should instead give you the option to indulge yourself further. But at the same time its not an easy thing for developers to branch the progression of the game sufficiently to accommodate playthroughs of different purity/corruption. Games that can afford to do this are big and already have a very rich world, a good example of a game like that is Degrees of Lewdity.

That being said, I wanted to share a couple of tropes that I find annoying/unfortunate. The first is the implicit connection between sexuality and corruption. That is to say, in a lot of games you can turn a low-libido pure character into a nympho by corrupting them. I wish more games would treat libido and corruption as two separate values. The other thing is the lack of option to "redeem" yourself. Corruption is usually a one way venture into depravity and there are no ways to go back on that. An example of both these tropes is Karryns Prison. As you inevitably get exposed to more and more sexual harassment, you gain all these irreversible passives that make you a slave to pleasure, and there is no way to remove them despite the game being quite sandboxy.

There is a third different kind of corruption. The kind where you start out as a hero/heroine fighting evil, and you get turned/manipulated into fighting for the dark side, turning on your friends and companions. It's a personal favorite of mine but everyone having different opinions of what transformation and corruption mean makes it difficult to find.

 

[peterppp]

So, I decided to make a "definition" of Corruption games.

I don't see the reason to write a definition on corruption games that assumes a female protagonist game where the MC is the one being corrupted. Instead of saying this setting might be inaccurate in some games, make it accurate by making it general.

 

[lazymunchlax]

I don't see the reason to write a definition on corruption games that assumes a female protagonist game where the MC is the one being corrupted. Instead of saying this setting might be inaccurate in some games, make it accurate by making it general.

Eh I dont think his definition requires the MC to be female and be the one corrupted.

 

[peterppp]

Eh I dont think his definition requires the MC to be female and be the one corrupted.

It's explicitly stated that the MC is the one being corrupted and that she is a she. I could quote selected parts but I see no point when you can just read it yourself.