Let's discuss Corruption

[lazymunchlax]

It's explicitly stated that the MC is the one being corrupted and that she is a she. I could quote selected parts but I see no point when you can just read it yourself.

He might refer to the Corruptee as the MC, but it works for any person being corrupted. I can't help you if you can't infer that.

 

[megaplayboy10k]

Corruption, in the sense of fap gaming tropes, is the gradual erosion or undoing of various inhibitions and moral codes that a subject/target lives by. People have taboos against(non-exhaustive list follows):
1. Sex before marriage
2. Sex outside of marriage
3. Being naked in front of a member of the opposite sex
4. masturbating in front of a member of the opposite sex(or, well, anybody)
5. Incest
6. Sex in public places/exhibitionism
7. Anal sex
8. Group sex
9. Homosexual sex(if hetero)
10. kinky sex/BDSM

for example. So finding ways to get someone to try one of those things(until they start to like it) is in essence finding ways to corrupt them. Now, one could try some form of coercion("Do this or your grades will suffer/Do this if you want this job/Do this if you want this money") and the first "bar" to clear is fairly low(show some skin, give a handjob, whatever), though I think the coercive path is maybe not ideal. But maybe there's the shock of the new in it, and after that persuasion and seduction may more effectively move things briskly along. If there are disruptions in the person's life that cause them to question their baseline assumptions that may help as well.

Generally the corruption effort doesn't really pick up steam until the subject starts to enjoy themselves...

 

[peterppp]

He might refer to the Corruptee as the MC, but it works for any person being corrupted. I can't help you if you can't infer that.

I can't help you if you can't understand English that doesn't need to be inferred. Now you admit that which you previously objected to. I never said one couldn't get the overall point he is making by changing the setting where needed. I question the choice to write the definition for a specific case when he is talking about corruption in general, unless he specifically wants to discuss corruption for female protag games. It's just sloppy. No offense to the thread starter. He even acknowledges that his examples are inaccurate in some cases. He could have easily made them general by rewriting them some.

 

[novabeaver]

Circling back to the idea of "Cost to the Character" (stats/writing) and "Cost to the Player" (gind), this kind of makes any given choice less interesting for me, because as I player it's hard to make me care if the cost is only to the character, and my desire to avoid unnecessary grinding makes the decision for me. Maybe it needs to be a little bit of both? Alternatively, would missing the sexy scene be considered enough cost to the player?

The other thing for me is that if choosing to not go all-in corruption basically gets you nowhere, as Chelielz put it, it also means the choice isn't as meaningful to me. Are there any games out there that give different rewards for corruption/not corruption, instead of no reward at all for one of the options?

The only one I can think of would be JOHN maybe, where if you don't go down the corruption route, you at least have the satisfaction that you're roleplaying your character as being badass? (but still missing some eye candy that isn't replaced with alternative rewards. (but to be fair, I haven't played that many games exploring this theme yet.)

I really did like the idea of relying on orgasm denial as someone mentioned earlier. Would be interesting to see what that would look like in a VN.

 

[DuniX]

I think the best way to understand Corruption is to understand the End State which is a Raging Slut that fucks everything that moves, every characterization before that is merely Foreplay for Unlocking that State.
If we are talking about "definitions" then by definition a character must reach that for the fetish to work.
Whether its their real character all along that is "Unlocked", or they have been Mind Controlled or ("unrealistically")Psychologically Broken ultimately it doesn't matter, just different blends of the Corruption mechanic.
And guess what? Players don't think that deeply about it.

As for alternatives to getting corrupted, they are nothing new and they don't even need any grinding, you merely have to give the "Virgin Route" where there isn't much Porn at all in a Porn Game or the "One True Love Route" aka a normal monogamous relationship.

 

[DuniX]

yup,
but that reminds me of a philosophical discourse regarding two characters (Pascal and Descartes I think) where the conclusion was that one was describing the world how it was and the other how the world should be.
(you're on the "should be" side)

I don't think most players care about what "should be" or like it like that.
So it's merely what they want cloaked in a "definition" to get it.
And its pointless anyway since the only developers who would listen will be those who already agree.

I don't think everything "must" be like that.
To me it depends on the quality of the game, I can find both interesting or both boring.

 

[Deleted member 3086194]

I kinda agree but

And guess what? Players don't think that deeply about it.

This whole thread is proof that people do think deeply about it lol

 

[DuniX]

I kinda agree but

This whole thread is proof that people do think deeply about it lol

I am the proof that I don't care, which makes the whole thread pointless.

 

[Deleted member 3145675]

Interessting thread that reminds which leads to the argument: Is corruption hate?

Hi,
good question.

- short answer (TLDR people): YES (or :some of it is required at some point)

-Longer answer: considering that corruption is the action of corrupting someone or something -
action whose goal is to ruin utterly in character or quality either yourself or your victim.
Now, would One do that for Love?
Now, if One does that with Hate in his/her/it/them/? heart - against whom is this hatred directed against?
themselves?
the other person?
any organization h/h/i/t/? victim belongs to and that the corruptor dislikes? (the church - Red Cross - AA....)
the entire universe? (or Multiverse)

Now, the question to be answered with an effective and satisfying answer would require to have knowledge
of the goal that the corruptor wishes to obtain.

- Corruption for itself (like a child who breaks a toy just because he can or wants to)
- Corruption for an ulterior motive (to gain something out of it) (mostly material)
- Corruption in order to gain an accomplice - a partner in crime ( a lover?)

in each cases, a strong sentiment or motivation is needed - is it Hate (or hatred) - Now knowing that both
Love and Hate are nothing but the 2 different faces of the same coin (or more like a Pa kua - or Ba Gua)
it is to be viewed either as nothing more than the fuel you'll use to set your project in motion - or as
a corrosive agent who destroys you as you move forward.

to conclude - I would say to your question - that the only way to find an appropriate answer would be to
analyze/observe the result of the corruption on both the corruptor and the corrupted.
How they have been changed or transformed.

(we would also need to determine the "moral" system thru which these results should be considered or perceived)

So the long answer would be: Most probably but subject to potential modification in the process (or not)

 

[lazymunchlax]

Circling back to the idea of "Cost to the Character" (stats/writing) and "Cost to the Player" (gind), this kind of makes any given choice less interesting for me, because as I player it's hard to make me care if the cost is only to the character, and my desire to avoid unnecessary grinding makes the decision for me. Maybe it needs to be a little bit of both? Alternatively, would missing the sexy scene be considered enough cost to the player?

The other thing for me is that if choosing to not go all-in corruption basically gets you nowhere, as Chelielz put it, it also means the choice isn't as meaningful to me. Are there any games out there that give different rewards for corruption/not corruption, instead of no reward at all for one of the options?

The only one I can think of would be JOHN maybe, where if you don't go down the corruption route, you at least have the satisfaction that you're roleplaying your character as being badass? (but still missing some eye candy that isn't replaced with alternative rewards. (but to be fair, I haven't played that many games exploring this theme yet.)

I really did like the idea of relying on orgasm denial as someone mentioned earlier. Would be interesting to see what that would look like in a VN.

Its a tough choice. If we do conventional video games instead of VNs, they usually do the "Effort involved" aspect of being "Moral" or "Good" when it comes to morality systems. Think of Knights of the old republic , a good character buys their droids full price, an evil one can force discounts and kill to get them for free, saving time and money.

Continuing the point, Dark side powers focus on fighting, while Lightside involves more saber based combat. Against the final bosses of both games, spamming dark side powers makes you win EZ, while being good is much harder.

Corruption systems as we're discussed could also liken to game shows that do "Try not to eat challenges". We'll show you a bunch of food, hold back from eating and get a prize. Eat and get a punishment at the end, more you ate the worse the punishment.

I'd say the key to a Corruption system in the way you want should be a finely tuned variation on Emotional Investment in the characters and sex scenes.

Assume MC is Female. Assume MC has a Male / Female friend that is Anti-corruption. As you do more corruption scenes, play on the players emotions by ruining their friendship or relationship with this person, have them end up with someone else, that mayhaps the player doesn't like. Instead of you they end up with some annoying football jock.

The light path on the other has less sex early on, but focuses on character building and emotion, developing a relationship between the two "Friends."

Those that care about the friend and the love story will hold back, while those that just want to be corrupt, have sex, reach their "Dream" alone through the allure of money / power earned through corruption will get what they want.

That's one possibility and how I'd go about it in a smaller game.

 

[khumak]

To me there's a few different ways you can make corruption believable.

1. Combine something that we already know she likes with whatever you're trying to corrupt her into doing
2. Start with a fetish she already has and push the boundaries on that towards whatever it is you want to do
3. Unlock a hidden desire that we don't know about by including some sort of backstory that explains it

I don't find it believable at all to just keep forcing someone to do something they don't like over and over until they magically start to like it.

Here's an example of what works for me:

Hubby notices that the wife enjoys making him jealous by flirting with other men. He decides to flip the tables on her and starts flirting with other women to make her jealous. They both discover that it's the jealousy itself that makes her horny and it doesn't matter to her whether she's the one making him jealous or he's the one making her jealous. So then he takes it a step further and lets her catch him cheating. She gets mad at first but it still turns her on. Eventually she wants to watch him. He's just converted a wife who was either a cheater (or would be eventually), into a cuckquean.

 

[probably_dave]

For me, there's a lot of good ideas in this thread of how corruption can be done differently compared to the "obtain corruption X to gain sex scene Y

I believe, it boils down to what are the gains the characters involve get by being corrupted or corrupting. However, as a player, there's usually one route that's the preference. This tends to then mean the player goes down the corrupt/get corrupted route rather than the other route.

I'm currently working on a slightly different scenario than the usual. Rather than the MC being the one corrupting or getting corrupted, it's instead one NPC trying to corrupt another NPC.

In the scenario, we have a Town Girl trying to corrupt a Rural Girl after the MC and the Town Girl move to the Rural town. The Rural Girl is innocent however finds the Town Girl fascinating because of her experiences outside of what the Rural Girl knows. The Town Girl is bored after moving away from the town, however does find the Rural Girl attractive albeit a bit boring and unadventurous. As the MC and Town Girl are close, the Town Girl tries to manipulate the MC into helper her 'loosen up' the Rural Girl.

Now, the player will have less obvious choices to make:

Helping the Town Girl will make it more likely you are to get 'special Thank Yous' from the her, however, your relationship with the Rural Girl will suffer.

Helping the Rural Girl however, will allow you to gain her trust and possibly start a full relationship with her. The Town Girl will then likely get bored and look for other forms of entertainment.

Or the less obvious choice and try to manipulate the situation so both girls believe you are helping them. This would be more difficult for the player and could lead to the relationship with both girls suffering, but the rewards in the end would be greater and also have the potential to turn the tables by having the Rural Girl begin corrupting the Town Girl as revenge.

This should hopefully gives the players the options of how they want to play without punishing them if they didn't chose the obvious route.
I think it also adds to lazymunchlax 's scenarios:
An evil character character kills the droids sellers to get the droids for free: least effort, quick reward
A good character saves all their money and buys the droids at full price: a lot of effort, more satisfying and can buy more droids in the future
A really evil character saves a whole lot of money, buys the droids outright, fits the droids with weapons, enslaves the droid sellers to make more droids: most effort, most rewards

 

[DuniX]

In the scenario, we have a Town Girl trying to corrupt a Rural Girl after the MC and the Town Girl move to the Rural town. The Rural Girl is innocent however finds the Town Girl fascinating because of her experiences outside of what the Rural Girl knows. The Town Girl is bored after moving away from the town, however does find the Rural Girl attractive albeit a bit boring and unadventurous. As the MC and Town Girl are close, the Town Girl tries to manipulate the MC into helper her 'loosen up' the Rural Girl.

Now, the player will have less obvious choices to make:

Helping the Town Girl will make it more likely you are to get 'special Thank Yous' from the her, however, your relationship with the Rural Girl will suffer.

Helping the Rural Girl however, will allow you to gain her trust and possibly start a full relationship with her. The Town Girl will then likely get bored and look for other forms of entertainment.

Or the less obvious choice and try to manipulate the situation so both girls believe you are helping them. This would be more difficult for the player and could lead to the relationship with both girls suffering, but the rewards in the end would be greater and also have the potential to turn the tables by having the Rural Girl begin corrupting the Town Girl as revenge.

Does that even count as a Corruption Game? or just Choices?
The Corruption Number might be stupid but at least it serves as the minimum necessary to keep things on track.
Handling Relationships through Choices and their Consequences does not necessarily mean you have a Corruption Game.

"Corruption" at the very least needs to represent a specific "State".

 

[obibobi]

This is just wrong. If a female character was forcefully exploited and abused and came out of the situation changed for the worse, would it wrong to say she had been corrupted by the events? no, it's a textbook example of corruption.

The reads like a preference which they can have, but it's incorrect to call their preference of how it plays out the correct definition.

 

[probably_dave]

Does that even count as a Corruption Game? or just Choices?
The Corruption Number might be stupid but at least it serves as the minimum necessary to keep things on track.
Handling Relationships through Choices and their Consequences does not necessarily mean you have a Corruption Game.

"Corruption" at the very least needs to represent a specific "State".

Sorry, you we're right, I was too focus on the choices the player makes and forgot the end States.
The end result of your choices does end with some form of corruption in my opinion.

Deciding not to participate at all for example and just leaving them to it (an option I forgot to outline above) and will result in the Rural Girl getting corrupted (albeit at a slower pace than if you assisted). This will slowly change her behavior. Where initially you'll hardly see her out in the evenings, she'll start going out more and more (starting with the Town Girl to eventually by herself). As her corruption grows, you'll then start seeing her flirting more and more. As she enjoys the attention more this will eventually progress from flirting to more direct things along with the number of people.

Of course, the MC could benefit from this if they chose to, or chose to intervene and encourage or try and stop it.

 

[Deleted member 3145675]

Sorry, you we're right, I was too focus on the choices the player makes and forgot the end States.
The end result of your choices does end with some form of corruption in my opinion.

Deciding not to participate at all for example and just leaving them to it (an option I forgot to outline above) and will result in the Rural Girl getting corrupted (albeit at a slower pace than if you assisted). This will slowly change her behavior. Where initially you'll hardly see her out in the evenings, she'll start going out more and more (starting with the Town Girl to eventually by herself). As her corruption grows, you'll then start seeing her flirting more and more. As she enjoys the attention more this will eventually progress from flirting to more direct things along with the number of people.

Of course, the MC could benefit from this if they chose to, or chose to intervene and encourage or try and stop it.

You'll probably benefit from reading =>

You must be registered to see the links

- the page itself is interesting but reading the book is a must do for anyone interesting in "corruption" as a topic.

(reading both Juliette and Justine will get you the "Now I understand what corruption is" Sticker)

 

[DuniX]

changed for the worse, would it wrong to say she had been corrupted by the events? no, it's a textbook example of corruption.

Trauma is not Corruption, another possible outcome could be something like Androphobia, Anthropophobia, Misandry or Reclusion so how can that be Corruption?
Corruption can be understood as something linked to turning to Evil or Sin. It's not merely trauma and its effects.

 

[obibobi]

Trauma is not Corruption, another possible outcome could be something like Androphobia, Anthropophobia, Misandry or Reclusion so how can that be Corruption?
Corruption can be understood as something linked to turning to evil or Sin. It's not merely trauma and its effects.

You don't actually have a point here. The exact same logic can be applied to someone making all the choices that makes someone corrupt and not becoming corrupt themselves or any of the things you listed.

It's corruption if they become corrupted, be it an instant change by magic, a slow downward spiral of bad choices or constant rapings. All that matters is the end result to fit the definition.

 

[InCompleteController]

The problem with MC corruption, is that the player and the character are not the same, but treated like they are. When the game is about corrupting others, it's usually about finding ways to force them into making a bargain. However, with MC corruption it's usually straight up to the player to choose between something that will corrupt them or keep them pure.

It feels a bit silly when the path of the game is basically just the MC waking up one day and deciding to be the biggest slut in town.

Ideally I would think that the MC should be handled a bit like an NPC. The player will be mostly in control, but this control will be taken away when the MC is pressured. The goal of the game will then be to find ways of forcing the MC into making bargains by making choices that sounds good on the surface.

 

[johnnyjohn247]

I dont believe corruption has to be about just bargaining. You can become corrupted to actively want something like sex. Like with all things you get dulled to "taboos" over time and become further corrupt seeking further thrills. But I will agree that corruption through forced means such as rp or drugging just doesnt work... thats not becoming corrupt, thats giving up on fighting back. I cant remember the name of the game but they had it quite well done in the beginning where corruption starts from simple things like becoming comfortable with your body changing in the gym, not being ashamed of sex pop up on websites, being comfortable with being hugged by friends, being comfortable with wearing slighly more revealing clothes (not another bunny suit working in the bar) etc etc. Too many games just go - perv grab tits leads to lifts skirt leads to rubs through cloth leads to handjob then blowjob then sex... That imo is just lazy and rushed. But then again, when you need a quick release, going through hours of slow corruption could be frustrating I guess