tehlemon

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Jan 26, 2021
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Inno said:
To begin with I'll go over what I've been working on since the last progress post, and then I'll outline what I need to do before the preview release of v0.4.0.5 is ready.
Keep in mind everyone, because this entire patch cycle is a massive scam, the patch she's talking about is only available for paying users of her free to play game. Because, you know, we've finally pushed her to the point where she's working on the game that's her full time job, so she needs you to pay.

Inno said:
So, as I mentioned in my previous post, I spent Sunday getting the sex manager support finished off, and then I moved on to adding the main quest content. Meraxis has one of the main roles in the Fields main quest content, and she makes an initial appearance when you leave Dominion for the first time, so I've started with her content.


While adding Meraxis's scenes, I ended up needing to add a few custom sex actions, and so I ended up adding support for defining sex actions in external files (like I did with sex managers). I also thought that it would be best to add her repeatable content (which includes combat and sex) at this time, and so I made a slight detour from the planned main quest content to get that added. I ended up adding a lot more options to this repeatable content than I originally planned, and so it's taken me the past few days to get it implemented (and there's still some writing of it left for me to do).

I'm now at the point where I've got to finish up a few things with Meraxis,
Holy shit, it only took like two months to get that one encounter she's been talking about working. Wait, fuck, we're half way through May now. Its actually been four months. Oops.

Just imagine if she had started actually working on this when she said she was, like, a year ago. The patch could have only been five or six months behind, rather than more than a year.


Inno said:
then I can add the centaur transport content (which will be relatively simple), as well as demonic centaur encounters (again relatively simple).
A difficult encounter took four months. I suspect an easy one should be done in... lets go with a month. Unless she needs another month off.

Oh, don't forget to factor in the extra month or three before the patch is made public, because fuck you.


Inno said:
Having those in the game will take me 90% of the way to v0.4.0.5's release, with just a few things then to add to Elis itself. I'm not going to be able to get all this done by the end of this week, but I am hoping to have v0.4.0.5 released some time next week.
Again, it's not a joke, she's literally been working on this since she gave up on Nyan's abysmal rework months ago (after like 9 months of lying about working on it). And She still isn't done with Elis. And still doesn't know when its going to be done.


Inno said:
I'll most likely make the next progress post once I've only got writing left to do, and will be able to give you a fixed date for v0.4.0.5's release then. I'm expecting to be at that stage and therefore make the next post some time around Tuesday night.


Thank you all for your continued interest in Lilith's Throne, and I'll get this preview version released as soon as I possibly can!
But remember, the version is for substar members only. So that's basically just her lying about the v0.4.0 content being released, even if she still doesn't know *when* its going to be released.

What a fucking joke lol


Anyone got tips on performance? It frustrates me to no end that a text game lags/freezes as much as this one
There are no tips that allow you to actually play the game, sorry. You can limit NPCs in the game to the point where you're ignoring most of the systems, and then it'll be... well... still really bad.

There was a user working on fixing the performance, but I'm 99% sure he gave up just like the rest of us. Because the entire design of the game is completely fucked.

I wasnt aware. Dude, I work 40 hours a week and only have--- 2-4 hours to pop on and check these sites, I cant fish for details that deep unless intrigue gets me, but thats sad news. Yikes.

I'm now glad she stayed off Itchio. I would feel like a massive dumbass giving someone like this (especially when I kindly asked whats up with the world map content and got a "coming in .4 we see you hear you like the 80,000 others"). Now I get the jazz Inno gets over this. She is literally the "guy putting a stick in bike tires and falls" meme.
You should start working on a porn game. Then you can work a few hours a week, and take months off, all while lying to your customers without any repercussions. It's a fool proof plan.
 

tehlemon

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Jan 26, 2021
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New blog post! (Technically, Tehlemon already posted it, along with his review, but I just thought it would be easier to read if the entire post was put together.)
Someone at least posted a partial before me. I only knew there was an update because I saw it here lol
 
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DeltaDuster

Member
Oct 5, 2018
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Anyone got tips on performance? It frustrates me to no end that a text game lags/freezes as much as this one
Limit your creation of children. Even if you remove them from the game, they're still technically existing in the save file. It's a bit of a stupid design.
You can also go through the thread and find the engine mod someone made that turns the status checks down and see if that behaves better for you.

Keep in mind everyone, because this entire patch cycle is a massive scam, the patch she's talking about is only available for paying users of her free to play game. Because, you know, we've finally pushed her to the point where she's working on the game that's her full time job, so she needs you to pay.

But remember, the version is for substar members only. So that's basically just her lying about the v0.4.0 content being released, even if she still doesn't know *when* its going to be released.

What a fucking joke lol
Um.. the code is on github. You can compile it yourself. And everyone that follows the game knows that. Yes, even these pre-releases. The only thing 'paid' for is the pre-compiled versions by Inno herself, but she even gives instructions on how to do it.
If the code wasn't on github, we wouldn't know this 0.4 that we got was supposed to be 0.3.21.. as I mentioned 2-3 pages ago, closer to when 0.4 dropped.
 

Sarkath

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Sep 8, 2019
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Sarkath, one of the members of our community, has made a few improvements to the game on their own branch. The caveat is that you have to build it yourself the same you do preview builds. Fortunately, there are instructions on how to do so, I'll include them bellow, along with the repository.

PS: I don't know if Sar is keeping their version up-to-date, as these posts were from before the .4 release. Best wait for their reply before committing.
I'm planning to merge in the 0.4 changes Fairly Soon™, preferably tonight if I have time (just got my second shot of Moderna, so I could very well be a withered husk by tomorrow).

There was a user working on fixing the performance, but I'm 99% sure he gave up just like the rest of us.
I haven't given up yet, but my day job's been kind of a brain-drain these past couple of weeks (several projects coming due, yadda yadda).

I'm starting to think that I'm a sucker for working a 40-48+ hour programming job when I could be raking in the big Patreon/SubStar bucks. :unsure:
 

IvoryOwl

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Mar 29, 2017
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I'm starting to think that I'm a sucker for working a 40-48+ hour programming job when I could be raking in the big Patreon/SubStar bucks. :unsure:
I mean yes, because you deserve to be rewarded for your good work but also... no?

I think platforms like Patreon/Substar are cursed, like a deal with the devil, you get money but what cost? They always turn decent/semi-decent people into greedy bastards over time. The more money they make, the lazier they become. Sometimes, the best projects are from those who make very little money (because its a passion) but the moment it becomes a job/chore it seems to ruin everything... I don't know, but it's a common trend I've noticed.

PS: I wish you well. Hope the shot doesn't do any major harm. :)
 
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Sarkath

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I don't know if that's a good idea... I mean everyone wants more money but at what cost?
Don't worry, I was (mostly) joking. :p

Besides, I tend to be future-focused in a lot of ways, and I can't see many prospective employers reacting favorably to seeing "wrote smut for a bunch of horny furries" on a resume.
 
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IvoryOwl

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And it likely won't be on the public github, because it's a substar only update.

Plus Inno hasn't historically been consistent in keeping the public github updated. That thing went like two years without an update.
Incorrect. Anyone can play the preview builds (aka, SubStar updates), the only difference is that if you're a "free" player then you have to compile the game yourself. In order to do so you have to use the repository from Github, just follow the instructions Inno provided (or the community).

Also, make sure you choose the right GitHub branch ("Dev") because the other ones haven't been updated in a while.

I used to compile versions myself and the first time was always the hardest. Subsequent compilations are much easier because everything's already pre-configured and ready to go in just a few clicks. Eclipse was a pain and kept throwing errors left and right, InteliJ provided a better experience IMO. Now I'm just lazy and wait for a kind soul to share it here.

--From Inno's website--
As always, you can also build these releases yourself from the public github's dev branch (which is always kept up to date with the very latest version):

(There's a build tutorial .)

IMPORTANT: If you're building through github, you'll now need to place the 'liliths-throne-public/res' folder in the same directory as the exported .jar!
 
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throbzombie

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Oct 15, 2020
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Um.. the code is on github. You can compile it yourself. And everyone that follows the game knows that. Yes, even these pre-releases. The only thing 'paid' for is the pre-compiled versions by Inno herself, but she even gives instructions on how to do it.
If the code wasn't on github, we wouldn't know this 0.4 that we got was supposed to be 0.3.21.. as I mentioned 2-3 pages ago, closer to when 0.4 dropped.
It's a pain in the ass, though; not having to build it yourself really is an incentive to pay.
 

ririmudev

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Dec 15, 2018
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Don't worry, I was (mostly) joking. :p

Besides, I tend to be future-focused in a lot of ways, and I can't see many prospective employers reacting favorably to seeing "wrote smut for a bunch of horny furries" on a resume.
I'd be fine with it.

Separately, I just wish this could be rewritten in primarily javascript (+typescript). I'm a big fan of modern java, but UI stuff fits best with JS/HTML/CSS. I wouldn't want to invest time into java UI frameworks. JS could incentivize more contributors, since the skills would be more transferable. These are just my musings, though.
 
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Sarkath

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PS: I wish you well. Hope the shot doesn't do any major harm. :)
Thanks! The worst effects I've seen from my friends and family have been mild flu-like symptoms, but they cleared quickly.

Oof, that's rough. I have the literal opposite problem going on right now, all my projects ended like a week or two ago, and now I'm stuck covering helpdesk duties this week for a bunch of people who are out on another project.

Holy fuck helpdesk duty is booooorrrriiiingggg. I'm so glad I moved past this kind of work ages ago. Like, I actually forgot how incredibly boring it is, and this is while I can work from home and watch youtube all day.
That's one thing I'm thankful for: at my job there's enough work that I never have to worry about being bored. :p My last job was a helldesk job and, yeah…no thanks.

It's a pain in the ass, though; not having to build it yourself really is an incentive to pay.
FWIW, as IvoryOwl mentioned above, the first time is the trickiest, mostly because Inno isn't really making the best use of Maven (the build system). If they pulled in JavaFX in the Maven dependencies, building it would be as simple as cloning the repo and hitting run.

I set up a a while back that includes the necessary changes to do this if you're interested in trying it. That branch should let you build LT against any Java SDK from 11 through 14 without having to manually dick around with the OpenJFX SDK.

I'd be fine with it.
:love:

Separately, I just wish this could be rewritten in primarily javascript (+typescript). I'm a big fan of modern java, but UI stuff fits best with JS/HTML/CSS. I wouldn't want to invest time into java UI frameworks. JS could incentivize more contributors, since the skills would be more transferable. These are just my musings, though.
Most of the display layer in LT is already based around HTML/CSS, so I guess it's about 25% there. :p JavaFX is pretty much only used to set up a bunch of WebViews which are fed by the core game engine, and an embedded JavaScript engine is used to allow for some level of scripting in the game's XML data files. The core engine, of course, is all Java-powered.

As for rewriting the core engine in JavaScript, I can't help but think that losing guaranteed type safety and strong typing could be a rough thing to work around, given the amount of data that LT tracks for each of its objects. At the very least it would require a pretty significant rework. This would be mitigated somewhat if TypeScript were used, in my experience it can only do so much (it still compiles to JavaScript at the end of the day, after all).

I think something like Blazor WebAssembly might be a good fit for something like this, but it's still a bit too new to the scene for me to know how well it would scale up to this sort of level. That would at least get it to run completely within the browser, and with AOT compilation the performance might not be too horrible.
 
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DeltaDuster

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Oct 5, 2018
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If you discover your child, then use the prompted 'remove from game' option after fighting them, that'll properly remove them. But yeah, any other method keeps them around.
Buggy > Misc tab > Offspring. They're still loaded, you just can't encounter them anymore. Which means they're still bloating your save. Unless you send all your children elsewhere and then manually remove them from the save file (or be extra careful to remove any you don't want while keeping the rest, because good luck sorting out any duplicate names).

I was gonna say something about the "next update" part, but IvoryOwl covered it to a T.
 
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Sarkath

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I just updated all of my feature branches to 0.4, so they should be up to date if anyone wants to try them.

I did notice that the game doesn't run nearly as smoothly on my new box (technically a downgrade from my previous system, but I was tired of 1) dual-booting my gaming rig and 2) dealing with NVIDIA's shitty Linux drivers). I'm kind of glad this is the case, as it makes the performance deficiencies a bit more obvious than they would be on a CPU with consistently fast single-core performance (my new box uses a mobile CPU, so its clock speeds are far less consistent).

But yeah. All updated. Hopefully more improvements coming soon. (y)
 

ririmudev

Member
Dec 15, 2018
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Most of the display layer in LT is already based around HTML/CSS, so I guess it's about 25% there. :p JavaFX is pretty much only used to set up a bunch of WebViews which are fed by the core game engine, and an embedded JavaScript engine is used to allow for some level of scripting in the game's XML data files. The core engine, of course, is all Java-powered.

As for rewriting the core engine in JavaScript, I can't help but think that losing guaranteed type safety and strong typing could be a rough thing to work around, given the amount of data that LT tracks for each of its objects. At the very least it would require a pretty significant rework. This would be mitigated somewhat if TypeScript were used, in my experience it can only do so much (it still compiles to JavaScript at the end of the day, after all).

I think something like Blazor WebAssembly might be a good fit for something like this, but it's still a bit too new to the scene for me to know how well it would scale up to this sort of level. That would at least get it to run completely within the browser, and with AOT compilation the performance might not be too horrible.
Yeah, the "significant rework" is the main problem. I wouldn't worry too much about type-safety. Typescript + a dumb webpack setup will last a project's lifetime. If a maintainer is lax about typescript use, chances are the project didn't have much hope in the first place. BTW, a fair amount of the frontend in LT is stringly-typed to begin with.

Blazor wouldn't be needed; just a web page built and deployed somewhere. Except instead of text, buttons, and logic, there's... text, buttons, and logic, but pushed further. I have some functional examples out there somewhere; one has basic animation (which I should get back to, but it's tedious - I think the PornEmpire dev has done something similar, and said the same thing).
 
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Sarkath

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Yeah, the "significant rework" is the main problem. I wouldn't worry too much about type-safety. Typescript + a dumb webpack setup will last a project's lifetime. If a maintainer is lax about typescript use, chances are the project didn't have much hope in the first place. BTW, a fair amount of the frontend in LT is stringly-typed to begin with.
True, true. I think the problem is that I'm looking at it as though such an endeavor would be spearheaded by the current management using the same development methodology that they currently do. The way LT handles its data structures and game events would leave any browser gasping for air.

It might not be a terrible idea to make an extensible, general-purpose engine for stuff like this. It might save people the hassle of starting an overly-ambitious project with Twine only to either be forced to jump ship (Tentacle Slave, Summoned By Accident, probably more…) when things get too hacky (or evolve into a Cthulhu-esque monstrosity like Degrees of Lewdity's codebase).

Blazor wouldn't be needed; just a web page built and deployed somewhere. Except instead of text, buttons, and logic, there's... text, buttons, and logic, but pushed further. I have some functional examples out there somewhere; one has basic animation (which I should get back to, but it's tedious - I think the PornEmpire dev has done something similar, and said the same thing).
I'm referring to Blazor WebAssembly, which produces standalone client-side web pages by compiling the .NET runtime and all of the supporting libraries in web assembly. I don't know why they gave it the same name as the Blazor web server, but Microsoft's gonna Microsoft I guess. It's supposedly production-ready (as of .NET Core 3.1, I think?), but popular opinion seems to think that it still needs some time in the oven.

And yeah, I know even that wouldn't really be needed, but I'm a filthy .NET shill who likes C# and tends to be biased towards desktop apps*, so using some engine libraries, Blazor WASM, and insert UI toolkit here would allow me to multi-target without much hassle. :p

*To be fair, I think this is mostly caused by the angst of having to occasionally support Classic ASP apps written with Netscape 4-era JavaScript at work. :cautious:
 

ohwhatnow

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Feb 19, 2019
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It might not be a terrible idea to make an extensible, general-purpose engine for stuff like this. It might save people the hassle of starting an overly-ambitious project with Twine only to either be forced to jump ship (Tentacle Slave, Summoned By Accident, probably more…) when things get too hacky (or evolve into a Cthulhu-esque monstrosity like Degrees of Lewdity's codebase).
I've never looked at working with QSP, but what I've seen of those games isn't super encouraging. Similarly, Trap Quest and Flexible Survival use some odd interpreter (wingit?) that seems.... odd. I'm kind of amazed at the variety of tech being used (abused?) to make these types of games, especially when most of them are conveying the same data (Probably a text box, an image, with the occasional stat screen/sidebar or tilemap).

But if the mainstream game engines are any indication, there's no tech that will survive a project with overambitious and overconfident developers. When I think about the nightmarish conflicts of interest that go into the typical patreon-as-an-early-access-model game... Yeah, I'd rather go back to junior whipping boy on the inept devops team. It's nice seeing things like Steam kind of helping to legitimize these games, but the situation really isn't all that conducive to making good products.

The situation with LT just seems super fucked and any realistic course of action for Innoxia is probably going to come with endless salt and criticism. I don't envy that in the slightest, rather I almost feel bad for her.
 

Sarkath

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I've never looked at working with QSP, but what I've seen of those games isn't super encouraging.
Yeah, sometimes it's hard to tell if it's the engine or the person using it. :/

Similarly, Trap Quest and Flexible Survival use some odd interpreter (wingit?) that seems.... odd.
Those use an evolution of the format that Infocom used for their classic text adventure games (Zork, et al). It's pretty well-established within interactive fiction circles and has some libraries to handle some of the basics for you (score tracking, inventory management, movement, etc) but it's generally pretty niche.

The situation with LT just seems super fucked and any realistic course of action for Innoxia is probably going to come with endless salt and criticism. I don't envy that in the slightest, rather I almost feel bad for her.
I'd still put myself in the camp where I still feel bad for Inno. When you take a deep dive into LT's code it's clear that a lot of thought went into the overall game and systems design, but the technical aspect needs a ton of work. In all fairness, she's gotten a hell of a lot better over the years, but it's a lot easier to dig yourself a hole than it is to dig yourself out of one.

Plus, the things that are getting fixed are great things moving forward (easier to add new content? Great! Better modding support? Even better!) but it seems like nothing is being done to resolve the underlying technical issues (such as the game updating literally all of the NPCs all the time and iterating over large swathes of objects every turn for no real reason) or even porting the old systems to the new modular approach.

I guess we'll see what happens moving forward. Either way, it's been a hell of an interesting ride so far.
 

Asia Argento

The Golden Dragon Princess
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Apr 14, 2020
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You should start working on a porn game. Then you can work a few hours a week, and take months off, all while lying to your customers without any repercussions. It's a fool proof plan.
I have thought about that in my spare time... but I dont think thats for me... Who knows though.
 

antediluvian

Newbie
Dec 29, 2019
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And for his neutral special, he wields a gun!

I wanted peoples opinion on what they like about this game (or rather, what this game aims to be, it's not exactly in the best state and the direction/rate of development is just tragic) in case someone else were to make a similar game. Specifically i'm interested peoples opinion on content such as furry/scalie/animal morph, sandbox, character customization, fantasy RPG elements, handwritten/plot characters, slave/companion management and story. How much do these things mean to you. If there is anything i left out that appeals to you don't be afraid to mention that too. Also I hope i'm not derailing this thread by doing this.
Sims-style interactions with NPCs bolstering their affection for you, and the ability to choose-your-own-sex-scene, are the big ones for me. The freedom to engage in whatever kink floats your fancy is another big one, although its Patreonizing gives it a huge mixed moral message -- the line is drawn at an oddly arbitrary point where horsecocks and weird animal parts are okay, but feralmorphs have to be "taurs" rather than full sentient beasts or else it's red-flag territory; it's strangely more restrictive than CoC in that regard, which had quadrupedal and non-humanoid partners as well and didn't suffer for it. It's funny that having something like presenting yourself to Battle Cat is categorized in the same level of extreme fetish as guro or pedophilia.

The appearance fluff/character customization is largely just fluff and matters less to me, especially because it rarely gets involved in the actual gameplay. Waltzing around with G cups versus AA does nothing except change weeaboo "paizuri" to "naizuri". (Is it really so hard to call it a "titjob" or "frottage"? Yeesh.)

I really, really love LT's respect for the player's agency. For instance, TiTS has this horribly written encounter with a bunch of fanwank OC characters where they blow out your airlock and then force you into this long, complicated multi-scene encounter on rails, and I just want to strangle the writer every time it happens. LT very often gives you the chance to say no or to say, sorry, not into dicks/vadges/both, or, sorry, I'm just not that into you. By comparison, everybody in TiTS starts out at mid-to-high-level sexual harassment. I don't come to adult games looking for soapboxing about pansexuality, I come looking for titillation when my real life relationships aren't satisfying me enough.

LT's agency is schizophrenic, too; it goes to great lengths to ensure that you are in control, yet is trapped in a run-or-rape atmosphere like just about every other text-based life simulator or CoC clone, and that bugs me to no end. Degrees of Lewdity similarly infuriates me that they went and spoiled a perfectly good "find a way to earn your rent, on your back if need be" life simulator with all of the rapists running about. LT even goes to great lengths to justify the rape results in-universe with an explanation that the player induces lust in those around them so it can't be modded away or head-canon'ed (DoL does the same in a slightly different way).

When the non-con game option is enabled, the non-con scenes are so mind-numbingly boring -- just you or them spamming resist actions -- that I can't imagine anyone who even likes that sort of thing can schlick themselves to it. The forced TF stuff also bugs me.

I adore that this isn't a futanari playground out of the box where at least half of the female population is packing sausage unless you voluntarily configure it that way (there's only one prominent named futa character and she doesn't do anything until you complete a side quest and show vulnerability). However, the furry stuff is a mixed bag. I'm not opposed to furry content, but the distinction between "minor", "lesser", and "greater" isn't obvious. The difference between a furry/scaly and non-furry partner is unclear; your partners have very little description for their fur or body coverings, and aside from excruciating detail on the genital anatomy, the rest of the anatomy only comes up when you hover over their race icon or actually click on it to read their character description.

The furry is purely cosmetic until the game suddenly forces a tail penetration on you.

Which is basically pegging. Not going to kink-shame the people who are into that sort of thing, of course, just that I'm not one of them, and there's no way to tell an NPC that it's a boundary that is a deal-breaker that they're not allowed to cross. Real life partners can be told that there are certain things they're not allowed to do, and they might bark up that tree now and again but still know that they'll blow the relationship if they try to coerce it or force it. By comparison, characters in this genre are practically clasping their hands together in glee with their plans for violating you, even those people who are head over heels in love with you.

The slave stuff is an entirely separate game within LT, and feels fundamentally off; it's like it throws you into this gigantic mansion and offers the possibility of being a slaver, but then buries it laterally. It's hard to describe, but I think it comes down to the lack of strategic depth on training a slave. Unlike SlaveMaker where you are managing numerous statistics to make "good" slaves, you just manage obedience and affection, which is far too little depth, and it fails to capture Free Cities' "fear" versus "loathing" nuance. You literally just hire a slave, tweak their room and duties until they gain affection every day, and then go off and faff around while they gain obedience and affection on their own. You don't interact with your slaves. Your companions and houseguests don't even interact with your slaves beyond telling you "oh, yeah, I talked to X" when you ask them if they've interacted with your slaves (and anytime IRL I've heard someone say "oh, yeah, I did" is a huge red flag that they haven't actually done it at all, though that might just be real-life subordinates and co-workers poisoning my interpretation).

[edit] Sweet Enola Gay, that was longer than I thought it would be.

Anyway, one final thing I remembered was my very first impression on the game during the museum visit was that it was a game about witchcraft in modern London, with the vast majority of people as humans and a deep underbelly in a Buffy-esque underworld, which I thought was utterly brilliant. Then (avoiding spoilers) it sent the player into an alternate universe and turned into just another CoC. I deflated like a balloon with a pinhole in the knot as I found out it was just bog standard after all.

Same thing could be said about accepting player suggestions: too much and you'll be doing nothing else. At that point, you're basically being paid to to work for them rather than making your own game. It can also create disparities in the quality. Last, but not least, be honest with your community!
If you haven't already dug through the suggestions.txt file in the src/com/lilithsthrone/res/doc folder, that file is a play-by-play of everything wrong with accepting player suggestions without a content filter. It's literally just a copy-paste job of people dumping random nonsense (presumably from the Discord), rather than being curated and organized in any way.

I hesitate at saying that player suggestions should be rejected outright, but they should always be assigned a priority and moved higher or lower, and it should be the developer writing something down with a couple minutes' design work on it. Adding something to The List is definitely something that needs more effort than Ctrl, C, and V.
 
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IvoryOwl

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Mar 29, 2017
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I hesitate at saying that player suggestions should be rejected outright,
Depends. For a moddable game like Lilith's Throne, I do think it's a bit redundant to worry about player suggestions to the degree Inno does it. Let the community worry about the details and depth of the game and focus on delivering good, lasting foundations so they have something to work with and add upon. I mean, she doesn't want to hire help yet is still eager to accept (free) player contributions. Might as well make things easier for the community so the community can make things easier for her.
 
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