m0us

Newbie
Dec 28, 2016
24
47
in re: Sister's sexual history;
I'm not sure if you've gotten a sense of this yet -- I skimmed the thread -- or how aware you are of the current state of western erotic games, but even the barest whiff of 'infidelity' toward the main character will deliver unto you a torrent of poorly typed engrish the likes of which is seldom witnessed. People fucking *hate* the merest notion of any single male in the universe having sexual contact with 'your women' when they're playing these kinds of games.

I'm sure there's enough anthropology, sociology, and Freudian psychology that has covered this phenomena, but it's really something you need to be aware of at the very outset. Either do what you want and prepare to receive badly typed internet death threats or be prepared to alter your story to appease the masses (and possibly rake in more patreonbux).

Personally, I think cowtowing to the masses usually makes things generic and uninteresting. But it's your call.

Second thing -- and I'm sure you already know this -- but I'd encourage you to jump on your initial success. Great demos can usually springboard into solid success if you manage to put out some more content in a relatively timely fashion (2-3 weeks, with a visible update schedule so people can keep it present in their mind). Then you might downshift to monthly as implementation gets more complex.

As to the actual demo, here are some thoughts;

The writing was pretty far above par, save occasional lapses into really modern voice and style. I'm not thinking it will be optimal to write in ye olde anglishe, but I was really jarred by a few turns of phrase by the main character/s. If you want, I can go in and find direct references. The overall set up seems perfectly adequate, if a bit extended. The setting is fresh and new, most old-timey projects get dropped rapidly.

My biggest complaint is probably, ironically, Belle. She occasionally slowed the intro down a little bit too much. It's not so much that the character isn't good -- but rather that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. Most of her dialogue doesn't really serve any purpose beyond being funny, which is fantastic in limited amounts, but will eventually wear out its welcome. Obviously you enjoy writing that dialogue -- so it's not so much that I think you should stop, but rather have Belle's interactions generally serve a greater purpose. Further, simply being aware that she's in the game is an interesting premise, but leaning on the 4th wall is rarely intrinsically funny the longer it goes on unless there's serious commitment.

You've indicated you want to do something peculiar with her plotline, well I'd suggest that you go whole hog on her status as a character. Make her address the player, have her indicate the artificiality (save scumming, etc) of the setting. What, after all, could an immortal fae who knows their existence is an unending artificial hell want? Amusement? Freedom? Something genuinely interesting?

I'm digressing.

Overall, a strong demo. The modeling is notably high quality. Lastly, I'd say you need to characterize Dickon a bit more. Right now, he's an inconsistently generic 3d porn game pervert. I'm not sure if that's the goal, but his very minor degree of upstandingness versus his total, instant desire to molest his sleeping sister went largely uncommented on and was kind of jarring.
 

Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
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You bring up many good points that are worth thinking about. A few things worth mentioning, though:

I don't cowtow to the masses. I listen to constructive feedback, but not mindless demand for clichés or requests for stroking someone's fragile ego. If I did, I might as well have made a harem Anime game. :)

The modern lapses in prose are somewhat deliberate. I write other fantasy fiction for a separate audience elsewhere, and there I stay very true to the genre's conventions in prose. Here though, I let a few anachronisms slip through, both in terms of visuals and language, simply because it's fun to bend the conventions for a bit and because I don't think this particular audience will get all that upset about it. I will mostly stick true to the genre though, with the exception of Belle. She works on an entirely different level. I am very likely to go back and rewrite bits and pieces of existing dialogue, so don't be surprised if some of the offending pieces get replaced down the line. Rewriting until perfection can become a bit of an obsession for me though, so I'm trying to focus on pushing out content instead. For now, at least.

Belle already knows an existence that is a kind of unending hell (we'll get back to that. She's grumpy for a reason), but it might be fun to play with some of the things you mention. The Witcher 3 had some funny ideas about how to deal with players who abused game systems, and that kind of thing is inspiring.

I'm not sure if characterizing the main character is what I want. I'd rather keep him as a blank slate and pour most of the personality into the narrator (Belle). I characterize him mostly just as a bit of a wimpy nerd and leave it at that. He's supposed to be the player's avatar in this world while not getting too much in the way. This is the primary reason why you will also never see his face (note to self: steer clear of locations with mirrors). He's meant to be almost invisible.
 

Gomly1980

Forum Fanatic
Jul 4, 2017
4,479
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I'm going to hold off a bit on passing judgement.

It all sounded good until the old nightmare fuel of patron polls came up.

I'm a very loud supporter of devs doing what they do and not bending for other people. I've seen far too many games turn into absolute cluster fucks and then fall apart because the dev was no longer making the game they wanted, they were making the game that kept certain people happy but the passion had gone and they ended up abandoning it.

The problem with polls is you aren't going to keep them happy. You'll have one group that got what they wanted but then you'll have those that lost not happy with what won, others not happy X wasn't in the poll and more wanting their own ideas brought into the game.

You give them an inch, they take a mile.
 

dbp5ca

Active Member
Donor
Mar 13, 2017
990
796
I'm going to hold off a bit on passing judgement.

It all sounded good until the old nightmare fuel of patron polls came up.

I'm a very loud supporter of devs doing what they do and not bending for other people. I've seen far too many games turn into absolute cluster fucks and then fall apart because the dev was no longer making the game they wanted, they were making the game that kept certain people happy but the passion had gone and they ended up abandoning it.

The problem with polls is you aren't going to keep them happy. You'll have one group that got what they wanted but then you'll have those that lost not happy with what won, others not happy X wasn't in the poll and more wanting their own ideas brought into the game.

You give them an inch, they take a mile.
Well as one of the ones who suggested polls I'd like to defend what I said :) You are very correct that polls can lead down some very dark interactions, as I've seen some of that with 3Diddley's comic, but since Belle indicated that she had a good sense of where the story should go but still wanted to allow for some patron input I figured polls were the best way to guide that sort of activity. At least with that you can offer a series of options which, while they may not suit everyone, they will at least allow for input without totally derailing aproject.
 

Maragdus

Member
Jul 1, 2017
137
205
I will make her 3-dimensional, and her behavior and history will be somewhat influenced by player choices. The last thing I want to do is make things too predictable or cookie-cutter. I understand where you're coming from with what you write here, you are most likely correct, and I do keep those things in mind while I'm writing, but my first priority is to tell a fresh, somewhat unique story, not to cross off a bunch of checkboxes to match player expectations from other games. No offense intended, just to be clear. I tend to break away from expectations a lot of the time since I think cliché
I am just trying to warn you.You have obviously put a lot of effort into this and it is a fresh concept and setting so i would like it to succeed.Making behavior and history somewhat influenced by player choices will appease most people if done properly(options to avoid certain content and foreshadowing of a certain decisions consequences).But in regards to things out of the player control it's better to play it safe(you most definitely don't want a Eric situation starting of).

in re: Sister's sexual history;
I'm not sure if you've gotten a sense of this yet -- I skimmed the thread -- or how aware you are of the current state of western erotic games, but even the barest whiff of 'infidelity' toward the main character will deliver unto you a torrent of poorly typed engrish the likes of which is seldom witnessed. People fucking *hate* the merest notion of any single male in the universe having sexual contact with 'your women' when they're playing these kinds of games.

I'm sure there's enough anthropology, sociology, and Freudian psychology that has covered this phenomena, but it's really something you need to be aware of at the very outset. Either do what you want and prepare to receive badly typed internet death threats or be prepared to alter your story to appease the masses (and possibly rake in more patreonbux).
Incest has a strong correlation with narcissism and narcissists aren't the sharing types.
 

dbp5ca

Active Member
Donor
Mar 13, 2017
990
796
Incest has a strong correlation with narcissism and narcissists aren't the sharing types.
This is interesting. Is this a guess/observation or is there some study to back up the first point? Genuinely curious.
 

Gomly1980

Forum Fanatic
Jul 4, 2017
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I'm going to give it a chance i'm just not going to jump in and say how good it is just yet until I see what path it goes down.

It's either going to go in the direction the dev wants or it's going to run away on it's own in a complete mess, we won't know until the polls start happening.

Until we've seen how people will react to them and how much influence they have I can't say if it's something i'm willing to throw my own support behind.

I don't want to start recommending this around just for it to turn into an abomination of fan ideas any sane person would cleanse with holy flame.

All of those start off with good intentions and a way to make patrons feel included and a lot of them went to shit.
 
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Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,091
10,274
Let me nip this debate in the bud right away: I will never allow my patrons to pressure me into adding content that I'm not passionate about myself.

Let's take a concrete example: Assume a bunch of $20 patrons is begging me to include a watersports scene. I would refuse because I have absolutely no interest in that fetish. Including it would alienate me from my own game and inevitably affect its quality negatively.

The whole reason for taking patron suggestions is my experience with outside inspiration. No matter how creative you are, no matter how brilliant your ideas are, if you limit yourself to the things your mind can come up with on its own, you will also limit the quality of whatever it is you are making. Listening to the players in the right kind of way can serve as an incredible source of inspiration that significantly improves both the game's quality and gives the players a sense of ownership and satisfaction.

A few people discussed roleplaying games earlier in this thread. They are an excellent example of this concept in action. A good game master will listen to everything the players discuss on their side of the table. Sometimes they'll come up with crazy ideas that impress the GM so much that he/she will quietly change parts of his story to match player expectations. The players are happy because they not only managed to "predict" where the story was going (though in reality, they shaped it) and also get to play something that they are excited about, and the GM is happy because his/her story just got better and the players are responding well to it.

That is my approach to patron input. I'm not going to trick players in the way the GM in the example did, but that way of taking inspiration and ideas from the player base and integrating it into the existing story is what I'm trying to achieve. All sides win.
 

Dustellar

Active Member
Aug 22, 2016
988
1,661
I wanted to play this but then I read that the parents died and that's a big no for me because I'm a big fan of mom/son incest... even if the story is great I guess I will not play this for that reason but I wish you luck :)
 

gamersglory

Xpression Games
Donor
Game Developer
Aug 23, 2017
1,356
3,557
Nice to see a new story one I hope will end up being long. love seeing the character development so far. I can see you put a lot of thought into the story. Can't wait for the next Version. Also, you gained a supporter in me. Good Luck
 

Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,091
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Nice to see a new story one I hope will end up being long. love seeing the character development so far. I can see you put a lot of thought into the story. Can't wait for the next Version. Also, you gained a supporter in me. Good Luck
Thank you! I really appreciate the support. :)
 

Maragdus

Member
Jul 1, 2017
137
205
This is interesting. Is this a guess/observation or is there some study to back up the first point? Genuinely curious.
I have actually read a book about it(i can't remember the tithal i was suggested to me in a discussion about evolutionary biology) i was about manifestations and heritability of certain personality traits like psychopathy narcissism sadism hybristophilia and so on with many historical references and examples and based on my own observations the information in that book was right on the money.In the book the author separated narcissist in two categories introverted and extroverted.The introverted are in love with themselves and don't really care about other people's opinions and feelings towards them they also tend to view strangers as objects and friends and relatives as possessions(MY friends/siblings/children/parents) and also the element of self-love often causes them to develop incestuous feelings towards their close relatives because that's the closest to ,,being ''with oneself.
 

Gomly1980

Forum Fanatic
Jul 4, 2017
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Let me nip this debate in the bud right away: I will never allow my patrons to pressure me into adding content that I'm not passionate about myself.
Like I said, i'm going to give the game a chance and see how it grows but in the short time i've been dwelling on these forums i've seen a lot of developers come and go and some of those have said exactly the same thing you did.

What they said and what happened were two different things.

It starts off innocently enough. You get posts on your patron like one above talking about liking mum, son incest and if that's not included they won't play. They then drop their patronage and a few others follow. The dev ends up adding it to save them from losing money and then, right there, they fucked up. As soon as you cave once you have to please everyone or the pissing fights happen and that dev has backed themselves into a corner.

From there they have 2 choices. Walk away or carrying on developing a game they no longer care about.

You saying something now when you aren't losing patrons is one thing, when money is involved it's another thing entirely and i've only seen a handful of devs stick to their guns.

You have a good start and a good attitude. If things stay that way and follow along this road then i'll shout your praises from the proverbial rooftops.
 
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Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,091
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The universe seems to have a cruel sense of humor. I just had my first total hard drive failure in over ten years, and it hit my primary data drive. Of all the times bad luck could have chosen to hit me, this was probably the worst. This is the drive where, among other things, I store my Ren'py project files. They were all lost, along with everything else on that drive.

Luckily, I tend to stay prepared for this kind of thing, so the Long Live the Princess Ren'py project is restored and fully working on a brand new, faster, and larger drive. The project files for the 3D renders are safely kept on another drive, so they were thankfully unaffected. If those had disappeared, this would have set me back a week or two. As it is, I'm hopefully only going to lose one or two days, if that.

I lost some other stuff, but right now my primary concern is to deliver LLtP updates on a regular basis. Other things can wait.

Just to rub salt in the wound, I'm also suffering regular blue screens of death, though I think I might have found a way to prevent them. With today's luck, I probably suffered two hardware failures at once and have yet to fully solve one of them.

This has really stressed me out today.
 
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Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,091
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Yeah. It's a good thing I tend to be an eternal optimist and can handle stress pretty well.

I'm already rendering new images for the game, so it didn't take long to get back on my feet. I suspect this whole thing is going to just make me work even harder in the coming days to get the next version done.
 

Gomly1980

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Jul 4, 2017
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Don't overwork yourself. I know, new game and you want to make a good start but don't forget to take a breather.

More importantly, go easy on your hardware. Last thing you want is anything else going wrong.

Stick on some Gummi Bear, the happy beat will soon have you smiling.
 

Belle

Developer of Long Live the Princess
Game Developer
Sep 25, 2017
3,091
10,274
Heh, the last few days have been a bit of a breather because of real life stuff and the launch of the Patreon. Today was supposed to be the first day where I could focus on the next version again, but that didn't really work out. I'm itching to get going.
 
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