VN Ren'Py Long Road Home [v10 Part 4 Beta Hotfix] [OBDGames]

[ptahn]

I feel like this is a lie and you dont support any games and use this as a means to get your suggestions some weight...i could be cynical but if you dont like a game just dont play it....you really go to EVERY game on here you dont like and suggest?

I support 16 games at varying levels with the most going to WVM. I don't make suggestions for every game, in fact very few. A lot of games I like just the way they are and many games I don't like at all. I only make a suggestion where a small change would make a difference to how much I enjoy the game.

 

[ptahn]

Here is your original post. It did not say you quit playing.



OK - You really want to know what I think? The dev took out the child rape scene to stay out of prison. Now wtf do you you want to keep complaining about?

That's not my first post, go back further. I don't want Jessy molested at all. I'm not saying that the developer should or should not take the scene out, that's up to him. I'm saying that having Jessy molested will keep some people (including me) from financially supporting the game. I'm just verbally supporting developers who make changes to their game to make them more financially successful. Many are right here. Posters whine to get changes and then other posters whine about changes being made. I believe that if you asked for a change and got it, you should pony up some dough. If a developer made a change and you do not like it, complain if you were a supporter. If you are not going to financially support the game regardless of what the developer does, then keep quiet.

 

[GrammerCop]

That's not my first post, go back further. I don't want Jessy molested at all. I'm not saying that the developer should or should not take the scene out, that's up to him. I'm saying that having Jessy molested will keep some people (including me) from financially supporting the game. I'm just verbally supporting developers who make changes to their game to make them more financially successful. Many are right here. Posters whine to get changes and then other posters whine about changes being made. I believe that if you asked for a change and got it, you should pony up some dough. If a developer made a change and you do not like it, complain if you were a supporter. If you are not going to financially support the game regardless of what the developer does, then keep quiet.

You are right. That wasn't your first post. The search feature is acting strangely. I guess I need to play with it a while. But I'm not going to. I just re-read your comments. I agree with them.

 

[ptahn]

You are right. That wasn't your first post. The search feature is acting strangely. I guess I need to play with it a while. But I'm not going to. I just re-read your comments. I agree with them.

Thank you.

 

[ptahn]

Okay, I'm not going to have three different arguments going with three different people on the exact topic in the exact same forum. So let's put it this way (when I say you I am referring generally to the people who disagree with my position and not any one individual.) We both see an ad for a car that is for sale by an individual. We separately test drive the car. You like the car exactly the way it is. I tell the seller that I like the car generally, but I would prefer if it was black. The seller offers to paint it black. You complain that I have some nerve asking the seller to change the color of the car. The seller asks you if you are willing to by the car the way it is. You tell the seller that you have no interest in buying the car regardless of the color. The seller then paints the car and I buy. You are then angry with both me and the seller. The only thing that would have made you happy was if the seller ended up with the car he could not sell in the original color.

 

[ptahn]

Downtownyogurtcloset use your words. I see that you have never posted a comment anywhere yet you're facepalming all over the place.

 

[ptahn]

Downtownyogurtcloset is now officially my hero.

 

[Vainglorious]

Okay, I'm not going to have three different arguments going with three different people on the exact topic in the exact same forum. So let's put it this way (when I say you I am referring generally to the people who disagree with my position and not any one individual.) We both see an ad for a car that is for sale by an individual. We separately test drive the car. You like the car exactly the way it is. I tell the seller that I like the car generally, but I would prefer if it was black. The seller offers to paint it black. You complain that I have some nerve asking the seller to change the color of the car. The seller asks you if you are willing to by the car the way it is. You tell the seller that you have no interest in buying the car regardless of the color. The seller then paints the car and I buy. You are then angry with both me and the seller. The only thing that would have made you happy was if the seller ended up with the car he could not sell in the original color.

Okay first off let me start by saying I'm not here to add another argument. I've been reading and after the quoted post I finally understand where you are coming from (I think). I think it mostly boils down to a different point of view.

You seem to be coming at this from the point that this is a product that the dev is selling where as others see it as sponsoring an artist they enjoy. I'll try not to speak for the dev or anyone else so just take this as my point of view.

These games aren't finished products so they aren't being sold. You're analogy earlier about books and movies aren't quite the same. Those people have agreed before hand to give up some control of their product to help get it made and distributed to an audience wider than they could on their own. Usually if a dev wants to allow patrons to suggest changes they make a tier that you would have to pay to be able to do that. That's totally fine.

(This is in general, not directed at you) I personally don't care if the scenes stay in or not and at this point it's kind of moot. I don't even mind people suggesting changes that would make them happy. The problem comes when people add a qualifier, such as, make blah blah change or I quit/drop my patronage/ whatever. Just make the statement of what you aren't happy with. Don't make threats or ultimatums to the dev. It comes off as whiney and entitled. If you're a patron and sponsoring a game then make the threats on patreon. That seems the more appropriate place for it, not a site where 99%(?) of the people are playing the game/beta testing it for free.

 

[ptahn]

Okay first off let me start by saying I'm not here to add another argument. I've been reading and after the quoted post I finally understand where you are coming from (I think). I think it mostly boils down to a different point of view.

You seem to be coming at this from the point that this is a product that the dev is selling where as others see it as sponsoring an artist they enjoy. I'll try not to speak for the dev or anyone else so just take this as my point of view.

These games aren't finished products so they aren't being sold. You're analogy earlier about books and movies aren't quite the same. Those people have agreed before hand to give up some control of their product to help get it made and distributed to an audience wider than they could on their own. Usually if a dev wants to allow patrons to suggest changes they make a tier that you would have to pay to be able to do that. That's totally fine.

(This is in general, not directed at you) I personally don't care if the scenes stay in or not and at this point it's kind of moot. I don't even mind people suggesting changes that would make them happy. The problem comes when people add a qualifier, such as, make blah blah change or I quit/drop my patronage/ whatever. Just make the statement of what you aren't happy with. Don't make threats or ultimatums to the dev. It comes off as whiney and entitled. If you're a patron and sponsoring a game then make the threats on patreon. That seems the more appropriate place for it, not a site where 99%(?) of the people are playing the game/beta testing it for free.

Exactly, but it is up to the developer whether he/she considers it his art and not to be tampered with or a product that can be changed to improve it's marketability. There have been games that I stopped supporting because I did not like the direction the story took. I have never said change or else. I disagree with your analogy that these stories are like books or movies, they are more like TV series that come out in episodes. TV series are sold to advertisers piecemeal. Advertisers may or may not sponsor series because of content. They may change their mind about sponsorship with change in content. Even art is not free of commercialism. I have commissioned paintings, what movies are being made are based largely on box office, etc. There is nothing wrong with making a suggestion that might make someone want to support a game (and again I point out I did not do so in this case.) It's up to the artist to decide whether or not to ignore a suggestion. What I am arguing against is that it is inherently wrong to make suggestions about content and that is also inherently wrong for a developer to comply with such requests. It is especially irksome that those who are most vocal in their arguments against my position will not financially support the game whatever the developer does.

 

[Avaron1974]

My only issue with changes like the one the dev was pushed to make is it never stops there.

We already saw the scene removed but the conversation remained, the same people then demanded the conversation be removed.

Maybe next update, maybe a couple of updates from now they will want something else changing.

I'll not even bother getting into my fave character in the first release going from free spirit to wanting to settle down the space of a few conversations.

A life she'd been living happily for many years suddenly changed overnight.

I've got no problem with people stating opinions but at least 2 people straight told the dev to remove it because they didn't like it.

Just look at the atmosphere shift on the forums. It's gone from a thread full of optimism at where a potentially amazing game could go to pages of rage and demands for scene removal. No more optimism, not much in the way of fun talks of the future.

 

[Vainglorious]

I have never said change or else.

I'm not saying you have, to be clear. What bothers me and a lot of other people are those that do and it happens a lot.

I disagree with your analogy that these stories are like books or movies, they are more like TV series that come out in episodes.

That was your analogy I was referring to. Not one of my own.

If you didn't like their books, you would not buy them. If you did not like their movies, you would not go to see them. Publishers make suggestion to authors to help sell books. Movie studios do screenings and make changes based on comments. If a developer is checking out comments here, then he/she is looking for suggestions from potential customers. If you like the game the way it is, support it. I don't like it and all I'm doing is letting the developer know what it would take to get my money. I'm putting a suggestion in the suggestion box. All I'm saying that if you are going to tell the developer not to make a change then buy his product.

Even art is not free of commercialism. I have commissioned paintings, what movies are being made are based largely on box office, etc.

If this were a commission I would say for sure someone has the right to make demands of the artist.

It's up to the artist to decide whether or not to ignore a suggestion. What I am arguing against is that it is inherently wrong to make suggestions about content and that is also inherently wrong for a developer to comply with such requests.

I agree. There is nothing wrong with making a suggestion. Nothing wrong with a dev changing his mind either. I think you got caught in an argument where neither side understood what the other was talking about.

It is especially irksome that those who are most vocal in their arguments against my position will not financially support the game whatever the developer does.

*Shrug* The only thing you can count on people for is to disappoint you. I think it's irrelevant to the general issue as to weather someone is supporting the dev or not.

 

[ptahn]

My only issue with changes like the one the dev was pushed to make is it never stops there.

We already saw the scene removed but the conversation remained, the same people then demanded the conversation be removed.

Maybe next update, maybe a couple of updates from now they will want something else changing.

I'll not even bother getting into my fave character in the first release going from free spirit to wanting to settle down the space of a few conversations.

A life she'd been living happily for many years suddenly changed overnight.

I've got no problem with people stating opinions but at least 2 people straight told the dev to remove it because they didn't like it.

Just look at the atmosphere shift on the forums. It's gone from a thread full of optimism at where a potentially amazing game could go to pages of rage and demands for scene removal. No more optimism, not much in the way of fun talks of the future.

I know that you yourself have said things like my favorite character is... and I'd like to see more of her. This is a suggestion about content. It may be that the developer had a smaller role in mind for that character. Enough people requests additional content for that character and she gets an expanded role. There is nothing wrong with that. If your issue is with people being rude in making suggestions, then the issue is with rudeness. I will jump on the bandwagon with you. I will not give up my right to say I like this or I don't like that. If I make a suggestion and I developer heeds it (although it is with the understanding that I am not alone in that opinion), I thank him with a few bucks.

There was a story that I (and many others) did not like the content. I had not played the game based on the comments which informed of the nature of the content (it was not in the tags.) I went to the developers' Patreon page and found that their goal was to get 100 patrons. I realized that they could achieve that goal with the current content. I never said a word and moved on to the next game. About a week later I saw there had been an update to the game making the objectionable content avoidable. Without even playing the game I pledged a buck. I realize that a dollar is insignificant, but I had never played the game and had never mentioned any content change. I had never posted anything regarding the story. I then went to the discussion page and posted to everyone that had asked for the content a request for all of them to also go and pledge at least a buck. I got a "like" from the developer but no comments from anyone else. So there are bad actors on both sides.

 

[Avaron1974]

It is especially irksome that those who are most vocal in their arguments against my position will not financially support the game whatever the developer does.

It takes more than a 0.1 for me to consider parting with any money. I already have other devs I back and I need a damn good reason to add more on top of that.

If quality can be maintained over several updates I then consider it. I will not ever support a game until a dev has shown he's willing to put the work in and get updates out. Backed far too many abandoned games to waste any more money now.

I think you got caught in an argument where neither side understood what the other was talking about.

Demands to remove a scene were made, scene was removed, demands were made to remove more content by the same person ...... where's the confusion?

 

[ptahn]

I'm not saying you have, to be clear. What bothers me and a lot of other people are those that do and it happens a lot.



That was your analogy I was referring to. Not one of my own.





If this were a commission I would say for sure someone has the right to make demands of the artist.



I agree. There is nothing wrong with making a suggestion. Nothing wrong with a dev changing his mind either. I think you got caught in an argument where neither side understood what the other was talking about.



*Shrug* The only thing you can count on people for is to disappoint you. I think it's irrelevant to the general issue as to weather someone is supporting the dev or not.

It wasn't my analogy, it was someone else's. I just commented on their analogy. I tend to be more optimistic generally people don't disappoint me. I don't think most people make demands, they ask. I too disapprove of rudeness. My issue here is the molestation of Jessy; thankfully, I never played the game with the rape scene. If I had, I too would not have been happy with just removal of the rape. (Ask "A" I always speak out against rape content.) And finally I understood the art vs. product argument before. I just don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[ptahn]

It takes more than a 0.1 for me to consider parting with any money. I already have other devs I back and I need a damn good reason to add more on top of that.

If quality can be maintained over several updates I then consider it. I will not ever support a game until a dev has shown he's willing to put the work in and get updates out. Backed far too many abandoned games to waste any more money now.



Demands to remove a scene were made, scene was removed, demands were made to remove more content by the same person ...... where's the confusion?

I did not specify you and actually went out of my way to say that I was not specifically talking about any one person. If you support games then I am specifically NOT talking about you. My involvement started when I said that I quit playing the game and stated that the content would cost the developer patrons. Someone who does not support games then commented on my original post drawing me into the ensuing conversation. My feeling, as I have tried to convey, is don't ask for more bread if you're not willing to tip your server; and don't condemn me for asking for bread nor condemn my server for bringing it if we are both happy with the tip I leave.

PS: I hope the request for change is not directed at me since I never asked for a change. I did say at one point say that I promised to pledge if the scene was changed as a way to coerce those on the other side to step up and pledge.

 

[ptahn]

Sorry, it's my bed time again. Any responses required will have to wait.

 

[The ArcKnight]

So what is one of the highlights you had while playing the game?

For me, I thought the last scene with Brooke and Jessy were really well done, you got to see how Jessy is going to be acting with the MC going forward it seems. Makes me wonder if Jessy is going to become more like the bestfriend of the MC rather then the main love interest which is an interesting take.

 

[Vainglorious]

Demands to remove a scene were made, scene was removed, demands were made to remove more content by the same person ...... where's the confusion?

None from me on that point.

It wasn't my analogy, it was someone else's. I just comm And finally I understood the art vs. product argument before. I just don't feel that the two are mutually exclusive.

Well I definitely wasn't clear. I could argue art verses product. I kind of did already I guess but that wasn't really my issue. I guess I got caught up in trying to see both sides and replied to every bit. Sorry about that.

My problem is suggestion/constructive criticism(I endorse this side) vs. demands/threats/ultimatums. It doesn't really matter(to me) weather its art or product or even if someone contributes. Unless a dev has made promises beyond, "Hey support me if you like my game" then no one should be making demands upon a dev. Especially here on this website.

 

[akenedy]

My only issue with changes like the one the dev was pushed to make is it never stops there.

We already saw the scene removed but the conversation remained, the same people then demanded the conversation be removed.

Maybe next update, maybe a couple of updates from now they will want something else changing.

I'll not even bother getting into my fave character in the first release going from free spirit to wanting to settle down the space of a few conversations.

A life she'd been living happily for many years suddenly changed overnight.

I've got no problem with people stating opinions but at least 2 people straight told the dev to remove it because they didn't like it.

Just look at the atmosphere shift on the forums. It's gone from a thread full of optimism at where a potentially amazing game could go to pages of rage and demands for scene removal. No more optimism, not much in the way of fun talks of the future.

Completely agree that it never stops just with one demand, unless you stand strong for your artistic vision and integrity and in general your personal projects fundamental core people will endlessly and constantly push you in favor of their own agenda and interests, I saw it countless times before and in this case, a game with mature content which is why it piqued my interest in the first place came to its first real rough bump with the subject (and unlike the majority of people on this site think that mature means a kid with a huge cock sticks it to his "landlady" and "roommates") people not only freaked out but changed and demanded to remove the scene not even considering or care that it has a crucial plot element. People should really start to learn to mature and accept that the world is full of much, much worse things and the dev should really consider learning to ignore people's pleas that could potentially ruin his own work. Also agree on the tone shift in the comment section, instead of whining and demanding, why not just ignore the game if it's not to your liking and move on.

 

[rakieten900]

Android?