- Jun 16, 2017
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- Thread starter veqvil
- Start date
- Sep 29, 2017
- 7,319
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- Oct 23, 2017
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WHY DOES MY KEYBOARD NOT HAVE THIS?! I would hit that button 99999 times a second xD
The best thing that could happen to a dev
Gonna make more use of that salt icon, it's awesome
- Jul 10, 2017
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- Jan 10, 2018
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It can definitely be enjoyed without a walkthrough, but remember this game is just in its introduction phase still. Only things that are tricky are the items and fact that if you click on Amy, computer or papers or decide to immediately walk into her room at start instead of finding item under bed, you might be locked out of what seems at this moment an important choice. Quite possible though that this will not have any serious ramifications in the full game.
- Jun 16, 2017
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Possibly. But I'm guessing it'll have bearing on the Submission route. And maybe Psychology specialist as well.
- May 9, 2017
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Been out of the loop on this one for while. Is there and ETA for the next update?
- Jul 10, 2017
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For me enjoyment doesn't include replaying the same scenes 20 times and still not unlocking scenes even after going through the images to find the items. Then you have to find it when it's a tiny little mouseover box and it's indistinguishable from the floor. That is not fun gameplay. But it didn't matter anyway because I missed some other hidden object. The choices should be what determines how the game progresses. Failing because the developer hid something from you means that the choices don't matter, and that without a walkthrough pointing out where and when to find these hidden objects you will fail and have to repeat the same scenes over and over until you get it just right or get lucky to succeed. How is that fun? How does that not kill your boner?
The fact that it's just in its introduction phase and it's already this frustrating is a bad thing. The further we progress in the story there will be more and more opportunities to miss some tiny random object that is vital to success. More chances to screw it up by one small mistake means more and more replays required to get it exactly right. And if it's something that is missed at the beginning impacting events much later on, that means longer and longer replays to correct the mistake.
In My Legacy and My Best Friend's Family, both similar games in the way they handle branching paths, the choices are intuitive and the player is informed by the dialogue and events about how their choices will effect the outcome. In this game you're locked out of stuff because there's a dildo hidden under the bed in one of the first scenes. The dildo has nothing to do with the story, there's no indication that it's important through dialogue, but without it you will fail.
Requiring multiple replays without any indication of what the player is doing wrong is just frustrating. Or you can resort to a walkthrough, but either option is requiring the player to take themselves out of the flow of the game to proceed. That's bad design if the only way to succeed is to either repeat the game ad nauseam or cheat. It kills immersion. It kills boners. And boners should never be killed.
Edit: Lest I should appear too harsh. I like this game. I love the renders. They're really top notch. The models are all great too. The story and situations are good. Which makes it even more frustrating because the gameplay is holding me back from experiencing those things about it which I feel are so great.
- Jan 10, 2018
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I actually agree with you about that scene in Amy's room, though her searching something was a slight clue, not catching that clue did have too harsh a penalty I think and it was way easier to move story forward even by accident as to catch that item and choice afterwards. For the other items, it should have been done same as with the technology spec and should have warned you that you missed something before you entered your room.
For keeping the notebook in your pocket or not and consequences on Carol route, this seemed fair enough as far as I am concerned.
Edit: To increase a little on the Amy room thing, clicking her and what follows after seems like a very natural progression from what happened before in your room, so player really can feel that he missed nothing in that part, if he does not know better from another external source. Overall love the game though and can't wait to see continuation of story.
For keeping the notebook in your pocket or not and consequences on Carol route, this seemed fair enough as far as I am concerned.
Edit: To increase a little on the Amy room thing, clicking her and what follows after seems like a very natural progression from what happened before in your room, so player really can feel that he missed nothing in that part, if he does not know better from another external source. Overall love the game though and can't wait to see continuation of story.
- Oct 10, 2017
- 7,535
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The issue you are adressing is actually in interesting one. I'd say its the general truth. I'm very much on the same page with you that neither game nor a visual novel should be made in a way that it becomes frustrating without such external helps as cheats and walkthroughs.
Unfortunately this is exactly how they are often made and even some of the best ones are plagued by it.. or should say that they are exactly the most glaring examples actually (I'm looking at you, Man of the House!) but this isn't all there is to be said. Not the whole picture. Not to mention that it feels as if you are somewhat blowing things out of proportions. Not that i can't understand this, mind you, i consider it a natural recation. If we like something for real and find a dent on it, that usually bothers us more than it would be in case of something that we care less about.
What we must understand here though that if we wanna give a visual novel a game-like sense then we can't hold the hand of the player and guide him or her all the way. I understand that this is exactly what some would prefer yet this isn't "how it should be". More like "how i like things in a vn/game". The twist here is which makes it somewhat confusing that in case of a visual novel your reasoning is more valid than in case of a game and this here is.. by definition a VN. Yet when you play it there are obviously game-like elements. So one should approach it as a game at times while just enjoy the flow at others, and in case a standard visual novel one is expecting the latter. So it has a slightly confusing nature.
In defense of this project though i'd like to point out that its not entirelly the vn's fault that a player chooses to be.. well.. blind. Lets just say: couldn't be bothered to be observant. This is basically the player's choice how he approaches the title. So i could even go as far as to say "Its another case when someone blames the title because it wants him or her to use his brain and think, be observant and aware of the surrondings. Like in a point-and-click adventure!" I actually hate those
But this would't be entirelly fair either.I think that this a valid issue actually but the truth is not as harsh as it is depicted. L&S isn't nearly as frustrating as some other titles there and i can understand if this a pet peeve for some. But as we all know pet peeves often inspire heated statements that tends to exaggerate
In my approach this VN is kinda suprises the player with its game elements. I feel that it doesn't gives you a clear idea that it has point-and-click elements that you can miss if you aren't observant enough and in turn influence the story. That this here is more like a hybrid between a game and a visual novel.As i've said before i don't feel like this title is as frustraring though. Its just more interactive than your average visual novel. If you look at this from a game point of view the issue is much less serious
- Jul 10, 2017
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I missed that if there was any indication that you could get rid of the notebook. But after giving up on the Amy submission route my patience was already wearing thin so I probably wasn't paying close attention. I stopped playing soon after Amy interrupted the upstairs scene and I realized I had failed with Carol again as well.
I'm not frustrated anymore, just sort of disappointed that I'm probably gonna just have to wait until the game is completed and follow a walkthrough. I'm not a masochist.
- Oct 23, 2017
- 757
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The update will come up this month, but can't go into more detail.
Hey, @CunningPig! First of all, a big thank you for giving this game a shot! Also, I'm sorry to cause any frustration.
Regarding the difficulty to find objects and items I totally agree with you, I actually had quite a lot of posts regarding this issue and I already announced an in-game walkthrough to help you out a little. Still, it's not easy to figure out what items play a role and therefore I have already changed some dialogues or scenes for 0.05, to make things a little more obvious.
My best bet, of course, is the walkthrough menu that will show you what scenes you can get and how you can access them (it will give you hints only though). Also (if my programming "skills" allow it) I try to add a replay feature as well as a "missed out" notification.
In case of Amy's toy, I tried to indicate it's existence by showing her looking for it, in case you peaked, still I understand that it might not be enough.
An improvement here is already in my 0.05 script: MC: "Looks like she is searching something?"
Still if you missed it, it doesn't affect the love route, it's more an extra scene you were able to unlock and only essential for the submission path (which I admit is a tricky path). I mean I know I'm cruel with this but I try to stay fair
This is my first project and I'm still learning a lot, so I'm 100 percent sure that I fuck up most of the time. I'm also far away from creating a game that represents my vision or what I have in mind.
Yes, LaS 0.04 is still in the introduction phase but be sure that I always try to improve this game and won't blindly keep implementing frustrating stuff xD. Nonetheless, I really appreciate any form of feedback, so thumbs up for that!
- Oct 23, 2017
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- 4,495
Looks like I took to long to write that reply xD (my engrish is slow
)I'm feeling honored to have people defending my game xD. Still, this issue can be resolved through smarter and more obvious indications and with a walkthrough menu, the less observant player can always pick up a hint or two. Still an awesome thing to talk about and find solutions for!The issue you are adressing is actually in interesting one. I'd say its the general truth. I'm very much on the same page with you that neither game nor a visual novel should be made in a way that it becomes frustrating without such external helps as cheats and walkthroughs.
Unfortunately this is exactly how they are often made and even some of the best ones are plagued by it.. or should say that they are exactly the most glaring examples actually (I'm looking at you, Man of the House!) but this isn't all there is to be said. Not the whole picture. Not to mention that it feels as if you are somewhat blowing things out of proportions. Not that i can't understand this, mind you, i consider it a natural recation. If we like something for real and find a dent on it, that usually bothers us more than it would be in case of something that we care less about.
What we must understand here though that if we wanna give a visual novel a game-like sense then we can't hold the hand of the player and guide him or her all the way. I understand that this is exactly what some would prefer yet this isn't "how it should be". More like "how i like things in a vn/game". The twist here is which makes it somewhat confusing that in case of a visual novel your reasoning is more valid than in case of a game and this here is.. by definition a VN. Yet when you play it there are obviously game-like elements. So one should approach it as a game at times while just enjoy the flow at others, and in case a standard visual novel one is expecting the latter. So it has a slightly confusing nature.
In defense of this project though i'd like to point out that its not entirelly the vn's fault that a player chooses to be.. well.. blind. Lets just say: couldn't be bothered to be observant. This is basically the player's choice how he approaches the title. So i could even go as far as to say "Its another case when someone blames the title because it wants him or her to use his brain and think, be observant and aware of the surrondings. Like in a point-and-click adventure!" I actually hate those
I think that this a valid issue actually but the truth is not as hars as it is depicted. L&S isn't nearly as frustrating as some other titles there and i can understand if this a pet peeve for some. But as we all know pet peeves often inspire heated statements that tends to exaggerate
As i've said before i don't feel like this title is as frustraring though. Its just more interactive than your average visual novel. If you look at this from a game point of view the issue is much less serious
- Jan 10, 2018
- 8,082
- 16,668
Ah if you had clicked on Amy's room you would have seen the option to leave it there, both directly after you found the notebook and also a bit later. Was quite a nice scene with Carol actually, if you did not get disturbed
.
- Oct 10, 2017
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I.. i'm afraid i was too busy gawking at her perky boobs and hot piece of sisterass to do that :coldsweat:Ah if you had clicked on Amy's room you would have seen the option to leave it there, both directly after you found the notebook and also a bit later. Was quite a nice scene with Carol actually, if you did not get disturbed
- Jul 10, 2017
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You think I just wasn't being observant? I would argue that the game requires too much exploration before the indications are even observable. I was missing the notebook on the Amy route, but it wasn't clear that the notebook was required until Amy interrupts the upstairs scene on the Carol route. The location is revealed in that scene as well, but once I figured out I needed the notebook I still couldn't find it and had to go through the image folder because it blends in with the floor completely. Those hints should be on the Amy route. Not hidden on the Carol route. And it still didn't matter because I hadn't found the dildo, because I clicked on the laptop ending the scene. That's not for my lack of observation, or trying.The issue you are adressing is actually in interesting one. I'd say its the general truth. I'm very much on the same page with you that neither game nor a visual novel should be made in a way that it becomes frustrating without such external helps as cheats and walkthroughs.
Unfortunately this is exactly how they are often made and even some of the best ones are plagued by it.. or should say that they are exactly the most glaring examples actually (I'm looking at you, Man of the House!) but this isn't all there is to be said. Not the whole picture. Not to mention that it feels as if you are somewhat blowing things out of proportions. Not that i can't understand this, mind you, i consider it a natural recation. If we like something for real and find a dent on it, that usually bothers us more than it would be in case of something that we care less about.
What we must understand here though that if we wanna give a visual novel a game-like sense then we can't hold the hand of the player and guide him or her all the way. I understand that this is exactly what some would prefer yet this isn't "how it should be". More like "how i like things in a vn/game". The twist here is which makes it somewhat confusing that in case of a visual novel your reasoning is more valid than in case of a game and this here is.. by definition a VN. Yet when you play it there are obviously game-like elements. So one should approach it as a game at times while just enjoy the flow at others, and in case a standard visual novel one is expecting the latter. So it has a slightly confusing nature.
In defense of this project though i'd like to point out that its not entirelly the vn's fault that a player chooses to be.. well.. blind. Lets just say: couldn't be bothered to be observant. This is basically the player's choice how he approaches the title. So i could even go as far as to say "Its another case when someone blames the title because it wants him or her to use his brain and think, be observant and aware of the surrondings. Like in a point-and-click adventure!" I actually hate those
I think that this a valid issue actually but the truth is not as hars as it is depicted. L&S isn't nearly as frustrating as some other titles there and i can understand if this a pet peeve for some. But as we all know pet peeves often inspire heated statements that tends to exaggerate
As i've said before i don't feel like this title is as frustraring though. Its just more interactive than your average visual novel. If you look at this from a game point of view the issue is much less serious
Those sound like very welcomed improvements to what I would consider to be the game's only flaw. Something in game that helps the player with how to proceed and shows what they can achieve and what they are missing would really decrease the frustration I experienced. Maybe modern gaming has ruined me by offering too much handholding, but man last night I was really pulling my hair out. I must have played through different routes a dozen times and still ended up walking away without the desired results. I understand it's a work in progress and you are growing as a developer as the game grows along with you. I really appreciate the response and it's good to know that you're listening and aware of what players like myself (with low pain tolerance and patience) are experiencing.Hey, @CunningPig! First of all, a big thank you for giving this game a shot! Also, I'm sorry to cause any frustration.
Regarding the difficulty to find objects and items I totally agree with you, I actually had quite a lot of posts regarding this issue and I already announced an in-game walkthrough to help you out a little. Still, it's not easy to figure out what items play a role and therefore I have already changed some dialogues or scenes for 0.05, to make things a little more obvious.
My best bet, of course, is the walkthrough menu that will show you what scenes you can get and how you can access them (it will give you hints only though). Also (if my programming "skills" allow it) I try to add a replay feature as well as a "missed out" notification.
In case of Amy's toy, I tried to indicate it's existence by showing her looking for it, in case you peaked, still I understand that it might not be enough.
An improvement here is already in my 0.05 script: MC: "Looks like she is searching something?"
Still if you missed it, it doesn't affect the love route, it's more an extra scene you were able to unlock and only essential for the submission path (which I admit is a tricky path). I mean I know I'm cruel with this but I try to stay fair
This is my first project and I'm still learning a lot, so I'm 100 percent sure that I fuck up most of the time. I'm also far away from creating a game that represents my vision or what I have in mind.
Yes, LaS 0.04 is still in the introduction phase but be sure that I always try to improve this game and won't blindly keep implementing frustrating stuff XD. Nonetheless, I really appreciate any form of feedback, so thumbs up for that!
- Oct 15, 2017
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Yeah it's obvious she saw something would happen to poor Amy. When she told Aiden to stay he didn't question her, so he is used to her insights somehow.
- Oct 9, 2017
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@CunningPig I see where you're coming from but you really do exaggerate a bit. From the first time you wake up in your room the game makes clear there is a point & click component and you have to be observant for items. I agree the items could be a bit more highlighted, but as veq said, it's something that will be adressed in the future.
Now, regarding the different branches I don't see your point. The game offers several different options to play different paths in different playthroughs. So I think saying replaying the game is boring because of the same scenes over and over again is invalid. You get completely different scenes in the love and submission routes, can find hidden bonus scenes, get different scenes from your choice of specialization and even then there are different approaches as you will most likely get a chance for a sharing path etc. So if you do things different every playthrough you will find new stuff. So you don't really repeat everything but explore new content. Also you should make use of the possibilities Ren'Py offers you like scrolling back or fast forward through known dialogue and scenes.
When I wrote the walkthrough and really went through all the scenes multiple times with different choices I found new details and stuff even when I thought I've seen it all. So if this game is not worth replaying I don't know what is.
Now, regarding the different branches I don't see your point. The game offers several different options to play different paths in different playthroughs. So I think saying replaying the game is boring because of the same scenes over and over again is invalid. You get completely different scenes in the love and submission routes, can find hidden bonus scenes, get different scenes from your choice of specialization and even then there are different approaches as you will most likely get a chance for a sharing path etc. So if you do things different every playthrough you will find new stuff. So you don't really repeat everything but explore new content. Also you should make use of the possibilities Ren'Py offers you like scrolling back or fast forward through known dialogue and scenes.
When I wrote the walkthrough and really went through all the scenes multiple times with different choices I found new details and stuff even when I thought I've seen it all. So if this game is not worth replaying I don't know what is.