VN Ren'Py Love & Jealousy [Act 2] [Professor Amethyst Games]

[funnythings3785]

I feel you, I have been a MC critic for quite a while.

I also feel you are missing the point of the cameras, and they are not there for Isaac to do any wrongdoing.

It is true that the author has often tried to "subvert the expectations", but I don't see it happening with Isaac, not after all the character development (or should I say scrambling) he went through in act 2.

This is something I noticed in the writing, good guys (and girls, especially girls) are the good guys, no matter what they do, bad guys are bad, period.



I have a full version of Act 1 myself, which tries to make MC look like less of a toothless teen, he works for some "conquests", even if his mental damage is kept he does call out bad behaviour from the people around him.

It even has a short Mia redemption arc.

Sadly most of it has to be canned considering how act 2 evolved.

Tbh I would never give it out or publish it, since while it tries to respect the author story, it is still using their work in which they poured their sweat and (hopefully) soul in it.



Anna has a big target painted on her back, she is now isolated (weird and somewhat cruel choice by MC and Lacey since the explanation doesn't make a lick of sense), and everyone will be far away.

The healing cannot come from Lacey, it has to come from MC.
Funnily enough, the whole Act 1 is Lacey trying to heal MC, Act 2 has Mia trying to do it, both of them suck ass at it.

These attempts are driven by the fact that MC is incompetent and keeps on wallowing, granted, this doesn't excuse or alleviates what Lacey does at all, but it gives us a why.

While for Mia....welll she is Mia, the worst character in the whole game.
The fact that she is forgiven in a heartbeat every single time is....kinda horrible, Lacey and Christine in particular.

Lacey is betrayed by her when she exposes her past to MC, in a terrible way, for which Lacey is not even phased by.
Ok forgive her because she betrayed you, but is it possible that the only person that gets mildly annoyed by the messages is Anna? And not even that much.

I would have expected Lacey to go nuclear, or at least mention that lying to inflict damage upon the man she loves was not ok, yet it doesn't happen at all, not even a conversation.
The only mention we have of this is in act 2, a couple of lines of dialogue.

Then we get the second betrayal, a kind of shitty one, and still nothing, she gets invited to LA for their "honeymoon", the same person that tried to break them up a couple of weeks prior.

Without even getting in the whole college thing, it is hard to skip the fact that Mia, while being fearful of penises, was cheering Lacey getting SA'd.

But wait, lets get a bit in the college thing, since it is presented as a super duper sad period for both Lacey and Mia.
When Lacey wants to clean up, Mia decides that she wanted more fun (it is mentioned that they worked hard into cleaning Lacey up) and goes for the last "hurrah".
Do you do last hurrahs for stuff that is painful and harmful? In fact this time Lacey barely survives.

There is so much more to add to this, so Mia needs a serious redemption arc or retcon to actually come through as a good character, for example:

• Her hate for MC in college needs to stem not from jealousy or annoyance, but from her seeing MC anchoring Lacey to her hurtful past.
• Make her respect Lacey love for MC but see it as ultimately hurtful. (she never understood neither Lacey or MC, so this could fit)
• Change how the lessons go, she needs a real motivation, like already discovering that she likes MC somehow and see Lacey silence like a betrayal (you said you love him so much and yet you are still doing this to him).
• The lessons tone has a VERY weak explanation, make her send already prepared texts that are not written in the spur of the moment, the "evil persona" doesn't hold up, especially because she already planned to act like this, it doesn't look good for her.
• Make the drugs plan more obvious to Lacey, this is the second backstab, make them have a fall out so emotions run high, now it feels cold, calculated and utterly evil.
• Make her more apologetic in several occasions, such as the "trick" discussion MC has with her, she sound like a lecturer that dismisses MC pain as garbage, it is very difficult to see that she cares for him or as an emotionally intelligent person.
• The whole SA thing needs to be changed somehow, to mild curiosity to keep the built narrative alive, and at least asking before hand if lacey is ok or hurt (this could tie with her not being able to understand Lacey but still being somewhat concerned like when she asked if she liked sex in college etc.)
• Insert more inner dialogue where she accuses and judges herself harshly, a couple "I punish myself for that" do not give the correct gravitas to her feelings and make her sound fake as hell.
• Create a situation where she has to sacrifice something for the sake of the couple: Her friendship with Lacey, her social status, her friendship with MC or even her job.
  This can instill the redemption to the readers, not forgiveness, but redemption, two different concepts.

Sadly there are not many ways to change what she has done in college without essentially destroying the story (still doable but hard), so that is gonna stay and make her look like an awful person anyway.
And considering what is unearthed in act 2, that she used Lacey to help herself heal, this will probably be damning anyway.

I get the not wanting to release something out of respect for the professors work, I can respect that and as I mentioned in a past post, while I have issues with the story, overall I respect the work done and can live with the way the it is displayed.

Now, that I can not say for some of the NTR works I have seen around this site. If I had half the will to spend the time, I would alter the stories, or add additional ending arcs simply because I think the stories are a disservice to their proclaimed "categories" and tend to trick the reader into thinking they are getting one thing, when in actuality they are getting something entirely different.

Other than a couple stories I have seen around here concerning Netorare, the professors work I have an honest appreciation for due to its honest intent.

I said it before and I know the professor doesn't care for "traditional" Netorare (or western I suspect), but I would love to see him approach a real Netorare story in its full cycle (love to full resolution) because L&J shows me he understands the true dynamic of the concept of those stories and doesn't simply view it as a tool for kinks.

 

[DeviantFun]

I get the not wanting to release something out of respect for the professors work, I can respect that and as I mentioned in a past post, while I have issues with the story, overall I respect the work done and can live with the way the it is displayed.

Exactly, I play several games, this is one of the few it is actually worth discussing about, no matter the flaws, which are fixable anyway.

I love L&J and I played it several times back to back, this is probably why I am able to recognize the subtle flaws and inconsistencies (characters changing suddenly, laughs where there should be none etc).

I pay attention to what I like, I ignore the rest.

Now, that I can not say for some of the NTR works I have seen around this site. If I had half the will to spend the time, I would alter the stories, or add additional ending arcs simply because I think the stories are a disservice to their proclaimed "categories" and tend to trick the reader into thinking they are getting one thing, when in actuality they are getting something entirely different.

Other than a couple stories I have seen around here concerning Netorare, the professors work I have an honest appreciation for due to its honest intent.

I said it before and I know the professor doesn't care for "traditional" Netorare (or western I suspect), but I would love to see him approach a real Netorare story in its full cycle (love to full resolution) because L&J shows me he understands the true dynamic of the concept of those stories and doesn't simply view it as a tool for kinks.

I do not care about NTR, I see it similarly to Maviarab in that regard, most of those stories are a fetish fulfillment for sexual inadequacy.
That said I care about stories, in particular when they try to tackle hard topics, L&J does that a lot.

There are a few ways to increase the stakes here and make Mc move forward in a more decisive way.

Act 2 had a perfect set for it: Make MC live in a hotel for a while, make him get some space then come back.
It wouldn't change much narratively, he would be still under Lacey's thumb, but at least Lacey would be actually aware that he could leave.

We see it written often, that she is scared about him leaving, but he NEVER gives any indication of it, not once.
He is always prostrated and portrayed as weak, which is somewhat fine if you want to portray trauma more than a full fledged character, it has a narrative purpose.

The problem we get is the disconnection between a "doormat" MC and Lacey's fear, since no one else in universe is actually thinking that he will leave. (it happens once, actually, where both Anna and Mia show this fear, when MC discovers the Tennis dates).

So the whole thing turns out to be a let's punch MC, and no one else gets anything to go through.
As I said, imagine Lacey see MC leave, imagine Mia being chastized properly by their social circle, Anna being pushed away by MC for a while after not being forward with him, imagine Veronica having to claw some trust back.

You could even have this between Christine and Mia, now their friendship makes little sense, but what if Mia had to face Christine and explain herself?

All of this adds further involvement from all characters, builds them up and make the story even more magnetic.
Reading: "I have so much regret", "I punish myself for that" or whatever else but never seeing it doesn't make it feel true at all.

Hell, look at how the slut path part 2 is treated, absolutely no emotional payoff, no facing demons, no further uncovering of the past.
Just another reason to find Mia disgusting and Lacey too, to my chagrin, since slut part 1 was great.

Yeah we could get into the whole people losing memory when is convenient, Lacey being the biggest culprit, since she remembers all the dresses and all the dicks, plus the whole act 2 thing.
Mc comes close too, I was a bit disappointed that the "graveyard humor" was cut off with a convenient memory loss, even if I am kinda sure it is for some narrative reason we are not yet privy to.

 

[funnythings3785]

Exactly, I play several games, this is one of the few it is actually worth discussing about, no matter the flaws, which are fixable anyway.

I love L&J and I played it several times back to back, this is probably why I am able to recognize the subtle flaws and inconsistencies (characters changing suddenly, laughs where there should be none etc).

I pay attention to what I like, I ignore the rest.



I do not care about NTR, I see it similarly to Maviarab in that regard, most of those stories are a fetish fulfillment for sexual inadequacy.
That said I care about stories, in particular when they try to tackle hard topics, L&J does that a lot.

There are a few ways to increase the stakes here and make Mc move forward in a more decisive way.

Act 2 had a perfect set for it: Make MC live in a hotel for a while, make him get some space then come back.
It wouldn't change much narratively, he would be still under Lacey's thumb, but at least Lacey would be actually aware that he could leave.

We see it written often, that she is scared about him leaving, but he NEVER gives any indication of it, not once.
He is always prostrated and portrayed as weak, which is somewhat fine if you want to portray trauma more than a full fledged character, it has a narrative purpose.

The problem we get is the disconnection between a "doormat" MC and Lacey's fear, since no one else in universe is actually thinking that he will leave. (it happens once, actually, where both Anna and Mia show this fear, when MC discovers the Tennis dates).

So the whole thing turns out to be a let's punch MC, and no one else gets anything to go through.
As I said, imagine Lacey see MC leave, imagine Mia being chastized properly by their social circle, Anna being pushed away by MC for a while after not being forward with him, imagine Veronica having to claw some trust back.

You could even have this between Christine and Mia, now their friendship makes little sense, but what if Mia had to face Christine and explain herself?

All of this adds further involvement from all characters, builds them up and make the story even more magnetic.
Reading: "I have so much regret", "I punish myself for that" or whatever else but never seeing it doesn't make it feel true at all.

Hell, look at how the slut path part 2 is treated, absolutely no emotional payoff, no facing demons, no further uncovering of the past.
Just another reason to find Mia disgusting and Lacey too, to my chagrin, since slut part 1 was great.

Yeah we could get into the whole people losing memory when is convenient, Lacey being the biggest culprit, since she remembers all the dresses and all the dicks, plus the whole act 2 thing.
Mc comes close too, I was a bit disappointed that the "graveyard humor" was cut off with a convenient memory loss, even if I am kinda sure it is for some narrative reason we are not yet privy to.

I enjoy the stories as well. I like the Netorare stories (the honest ones who attend to the true concept) for the very reason that L&J achieves its results. Honestly, I could care less about the sexual stuff, I just enjoy the emotional stories of loss concerning the subject, but I am also interested in resolution in them as well. That is, I don't care for the Netorare stories that simply end in demoralized progressions of complete loss and depression.

I rather prefer a more full cycle to where the MC finds some completion in the story, be it finding a new love, learning a lesson or coming to some understanding, as well as those that allow the MC to take revenge for the hurt that was brought upon them by the one that "claimed" they loved them.

I think that is why I like L&J so much because it actually attends to the MCs position, which in all honesty is what a Netorare story is about. It is about the MC, their hurt, their loss, their feelings of hopelessness and how they deal with the situation. Most of the games here that deal with the topic do a great disservice to that concept and treat it as nothing more than a vehicle for kinks.

A good netorare story will have its ups and downs, its devastating loss, etc... describing the turmoil and emotions of the MC in the process and then... ultimately finding some means for the MC to deal with it in various ways. I like that concept of a story, like a good tragedy movie/book and the "porn" aspect can be effective in driving the emotions due to some aspects of its shock value in the depictions of the betrayal. Unfortunately, as I said... most are just kink stories about cuckolding, sharing, etc... which is not at all what I find interesting about the concept.

 

[Fmedic]

I haven't been on in a good while, and couldn't possibly read through all of the posts that I have missed. i read a few with thoughts on how the story should go and stuff like that. I have the same thoughts.

I actually have been working on a "ALT" story or ending. (For myself at this point) I guess it is how I want the story to go or end. I can only spend a few hours every so often to finish it. 7500 lines so far. (Takes forever)

I have no idea how the professor or any other author/dev does it so quickly. These authors definitely should be getting "love" ($$) from us who read their stories. If you don't think so, you should try to write one. i also found out, I suck at graphic arts or graphic editing.

 

[Adhdclassic]

Let's all agree these motherfuckers need therapy and need to stop trying to fix each other. It's like fuckers with no arms trying to give high fives not happening.

 

[Scaron_the_one]

I enjoy the stories as well. I like the Netorare stories (the honest ones who attend to the true concept) for the very reason that L&J achieves its results. Honestly, I could care less about the sexual stuff, I just enjoy the emotional stories of loss concerning the subject, but I am also interested in resolution in them as well. That is, I don't care for the Netorare stories that simply end in demoralized progressions of complete loss and depression.

I rather prefer a more full cycle to where the MC finds some completion in the story, be it finding a new love, learning a lesson or coming to some understanding, as well as those that allow the MC to take revenge for the hurt that was brought upon them by the one that "claimed" they loved them.

I think that is why I like L&J so much because it actually attends to the MCs position, which in all honesty is what a Netorare story is about. It is about the MC, their hurt, their loss, their feelings of hopelessness and how they deal with the situation. Most of the games here that deal with the topic do a great disservice to that concept and treat it as nothing more than a vehicle for kinks.

A good netorare story will have its ups and downs, its devastating loss, etc... describing the turmoil and emotions of the MC in the process and then... ultimately finding some means for the MC to deal with it in various ways. I like that concept of a story, like a good tragedy movie/book and the "porn" aspect can be effective in driving the emotions due to some aspects of its shock value in the depictions of the betrayal. Unfortunately, as I said... most are just kink stories about cuckolding, sharing, etc... which is not at all what I find interesting about the concept.

I thought about what I found in this story so powerful. And I can relate to what you are writing. I like linear stories like a books. Real books for public. But there was always something missing. In all stories. The raw honesty. While in porn games here on this site there is seldom a very deep story - oftentimes just raw porn with little narrative to go by. What I found in this novel, is that it is very unique mix, that fuses the two together. While it reads very well like a book, it also does not forget about the raw sexuality and how it influences our thinking.

Maybe let me explain better. Literally everything around us revolves about sex. Every aspect of society is built on it in one way or another as a submotive. The ultimate goal is to procreate yes but it goes deeper. We build fortunes, wealth, we take care of our health, build character, we build ourselves up from kids to successful individuals. We maintain and evolve our relationships. Build companies and set life goals and achievements based on societal approval. Whether man or a woman we look for our role in all this and set it to make us successful in the longterm goal, to procreate or be desired, be unique enough to stand out.

Now if you take all that and wish to write a good book, a life story of someone, if you leave out the sexuality from the mix the story will never feel real and complete. The other way around is also true and goes for atmost Majority of visual novels here on this site.

What L&J does - is that it does a decent job for both. It doesn't hide the raw nakedness of sexual influence from the story, it describes the deep motives behind every decision. For example While for some it can be seen as constant whining of Mc or someone else, what I see it for are the hidden dialogs you don't get to see anywhere else. It's what he constantly thinks about. And it is what you would constantly think about if you can remember how it felt when you fell madly in love, maybe against all good reason.

The author text unifies the two worlds for me and creates fairly rare product from my perspective. And I haven't found a product that would go anywhere near this quality.

 

[Lady Lydia]

While I find the story in interesting, I have to say it feels that Dev didn't think the story thru, Lacey is nigh universally hated by players because she is such a mindless idiot that if anything most players want her gone, I think a good NTR story should make the MC still want their partner back, one where how far the partner dug themselves a hole in they should still be viable to pull themselves back out and return to the MC. The problem here is the players hate her so much they'll in most case likely actively work against that outcome, they'll prefer the MC to move on from Lacey rather than him being made to keep suffering her stupidity.


Which lead to my own take on how this story should be remade, basically turn it around, either you turn the background of the story near 180 around, have the MC being the one that abandoned Lacey, have him be the one that went on sex mad drug fueled binge during college, than have Lacey discover this and the MC gives her what amount to a few free pass to compensate, leading to Lacey becoming slowly corrupted and the MC actually feeling bad because he can see her slip away from him, with him having to struggle to keep their relationship as she lose herself in this new freedom.


The other option is having the story narrative turn 180, have Lacey become the MC, have her similarly to above decide to compensate the MC for all the drug fuel sex mania she had in college, giving him the opportunity similar to how its going in the game to sleep around, with her boss, with her BFF, with his BFF, etc. So the point would be instead of Lacey being an idiot and thinking that the solution to her husband's being jealous about her past relationship isn't to dig the grave deeper, but instead to give him a similar opportunity to what she had so he can sympathize with her by experiencing a similar wild sex mania.


The point is either those scenarios would create a sensible platform for the NTR where the character doing it wouldn't be at fault and thus enable players to have a balanced view of both the MC and the partner, rather than have an extremely skewed on one side perception. I feel its an issue admittedly in most NTR games, which is why I hate most of them, the Devs don't think of a scenario where players would experience complicated emotions on the subject, being broken between taking the partner back or abandoning them. Most of the time the partner is so far gone that either the players are pissed enough to want retribution, or just relieved to get rid of the partner. Its counterproductive to the genre.


The few that don't make the partner a lost cause tend to operate on the blackmail premise where the partner is slowly being corrupted by someone effectively they are forced to interact with, thus the odious of the NTR isn't on them or the MC but on a third party, which I feel also doesn't properly provide a NTR experience, its more like Stockholm Syndrome stories. And again most of those stories either have an early end for a positive outcome or permanent loss because the partner is too far gone before the foolish MC figured out their partner that has typically been bimbofying themselves before their very eyes, had been forced into a situation of being corrupted under duress.

 

[SayoraSaint]

After reading Lady Lily's post, I had an idea.

I'm more than sure that the vast majority of readers understand that MC and lacey have no future and basically no normal happy ending options.
I'd like to hear your suggestions on how the author plans to end the story, without going into detail.

I'll assume the most likely and most disgusting scenario—where NTR escalates into NTRS/Hotwife/Swinging, and in the end, we get a happy idiot MC and an even happier lacey.

I really hope your suggestions are better.

 

[DeviantFun]

While I find the story in interesting, I have to say it feels that Dev didn't think the story thru, Lacey is nigh universally hated by players because she is such a mindless idiot that if anything most players want her gone, I think a good NTR story should make the MC still want their partner back, one where how far the partner dug themselves a hole in they should still be viable to pull themselves back out and return to the MC. The problem here is the players hate her so much they'll in most case likely actively work against that outcome, they'll prefer the MC to move on from Lacey rather than him being made to keep suffering her stupidity.


Which lead to my own take on how this story should be remade, basically turn it around, either you turn the background of the story near 180 around, have the MC being the one that abandoned Lacey, have him be the one that went on sex mad drug fueled binge during college, than have Lacey discover this and the MC gives her what amount to a few free pass to compensate, leading to Lacey becoming slowly corrupted and the MC actually feeling bad because he can see her slip away from him, with him having to struggle to keep their relationship as she lose herself in this new freedom.


The other option is having the story narrative turn 180, have Lacey become the MC, have her similarly to above decide to compensate the MC for all the drug fuel sex mania she had in college, giving him the opportunity similar to how its going in the game to sleep around, with her boss, with her BFF, with his BFF, etc. So the point would be instead of Lacey being an idiot and thinking that the solution to her husband's being jealous about her past relationship isn't to dig the grave deeper, but instead to give him a similar opportunity to what she had so he can sympathize with her by experiencing a similar wild sex mania.


The point is either those scenarios would create a sensible platform for the NTR where the character doing it wouldn't be at fault and thus enable players to have a balanced view of both the MC and the partner, rather than have an extremely skewed on one side perception. I feel its an issue admittedly in most NTR games, which is why I hate most of them, the Devs don't think of a scenario where players would experience complicated emotions on the subject, being broken between taking the partner back or abandoning them. Most of the time the partner is so far gone that either the players are pissed enough to want retribution, or just relieved to get rid of the partner. Its counterproductive to the genre.


The few that don't make the partner a lost cause tend to operate on the blackmail premise where the partner is slowly being corrupted by someone effectively they are forced to interact with, thus the odious of the NTR isn't on them or the MC but on a third party, which I feel also doesn't properly provide a NTR experience, its more like Stockholm Syndrome stories. And again most of those stories either have an early end for a positive outcome or permanent loss because the partner is too far gone before the foolish MC figured out their partner that has typically been bimbofying themselves before their very eyes, had been forced into a situation of being corrupted under duress.

You are still looking for NTR basic elements in a game which is trying to move away from them to bring a different perspective, most of the "under duress" stuff rarely make sense and it is still betrayal, but if you really want to see such elements, if you read the story and focus on certain elements, Lacey can be considered under duress.

I agree with you on one major point, which is one I made recently and I made regularly in the past, some characters are simply hated by the majority of the players even when the attempt of the author is to garner compassion and make them somewhat flawed but likeable.

Mia is the prime example, but also Lacey, whose motivations are lost to most (I can count on one hand the amount of people that really understood why she did what she did in college), simply devolve into a hate recipient.

I cannot judge how much of the story is thought through or now what I know for sure is that characters are sometimes sacrificed on the altar of shock value or story development, Anna is also a major victim here but she is definitely not the only one.

The characters will act in an unexpected way or be absolutely cruel for no reason at all for the sake of it, to create shock.
Mia tone in the messages (she has a LOOOONG list of "crimes"), Anna hiding stuff from MC (or being an avid raver, like wtf), Veronica betraying the couple, Jeanette talking about Kelly as a sex object, Kelly metronoming from being mentally healthy to following Mia like a dog....the list is long.

After reading Lady Lily's post, I had an idea.

I'm more than sure that the vast majority of readers understand that MC and lacey have no future and basically no normal happy ending options.
I'd like to hear your suggestions on how the author plans to end the story, without going into detail.

I'll assume the most likely and most disgusting scenario—where NTR escalates into NTRS/Hotwife/Swinging, and in the end, we get a happy idiot MC and an even happier lacey.

I really hope your suggestions are better.

How did you come to the conclusion that Lacey would be happy with those disgusting concepts? (check your GG points or every time she cries about it).

This is what I was saying before, Lacey is thoroughly misunderstood, and before Al or Mav get on my case, I am not defending her actions, in fact I condemn every single one of them, up to joking about her past.

MC might like it, depending on your choices, there are indications that the author is giving him some "cuck points" (sadly).

 

[SayoraSaint]

How did you come to the conclusion that Lacey would be happy with those disgusting concepts? (check your GG points or every time she cries about it).

I think it's all clear here: lacey gets a tame MC who will happily do whatever she says, and she, in turn, will do whatever she wants without worrying about her cuck-husband. Isn't that happiness?
When she fucked Demian, if she cried, it certainly wasn't from grief.

I'm also almost certain that this VN won't stray from the canons of the NTR/NTRS genre because we already have two statements from the author that he himself has violated.

 

[DeviantFun]

I think it's all clear here: lacey gets a tame MC who will happily do whatever she says, and she, in turn, will do whatever she wants without worrying about her cuck-husband. Isn't that happiness?

I'm also almost certain that this VN won't stray from the canons of the NTR/NTRS genre because we already have two statements from the author that he himself has violated.

Eh I would go and re read all the sharing discussions if I were you.

That said, this is one of the "mistakes" the author made, the jealousy date and its fallout.
Thankfully he then backpedaled heavily from it, but it left a bad taste for lot of people, which is understandable.

The Bastion incident is another culprit, to add shock value we have another unexplainable memory loss and weird behaviour, which create a huge misunderstanding not many will be willing to forgive or forget.

So, I understand why you are saying what you are saying, I don't even think that I can blame you for it, since I kinda see how these narrative choices would push many people over the edge and simply not listen anymore, because they are fed up with the teen drama.

 

[Lady Lydia]

You are still looking for NTR basic elements in a game which is trying to move away from them to bring a different perspective, most of the "under duress" stuff rarely make sense and it is still betrayal, but if you really want to see such elements, if you read the story and focus on certain elements, Lacey can be considered under duress.

I agree with you on one major point, which is one I made recently and I made regularly in the past, some characters are simply hated by the majority of the players even when the attempt of the author is to garner compassion and make them somewhat flawed but likeable.

Mia is the prime example, but also Lacey, whose motivations are lost to most (I can count on one hand the amount of people that really understood why she did what she did in college), simply devolve into a hate recipient.

I cannot judge how much of the story is thought through or now what I know for sure is that characters are sometimes sacrificed on the altar of shock value or story development, Anna is also a major victim here but she is definitely not the only one.

The characters will act in an unexpected way or be absolutely cruel for no reason at all for the sake of it, to create shock.
Mia tone in the messages (she has a LOOOONG list of "crimes"), Anna hiding stuff from MC (or being an avid raver, like wtf), Veronica betraying the couple, Jeanette talking about Kelly as a sex object, Kelly metronoming from being mentally healthy to following Mia like a dog....the list is long.

How did you come to the conclusion that Lacey would be happy with those disgusting concepts? (check your GG points or every time she cries about it).

This is what I was saying before, Lacey is thoroughly misunderstood, and before Al or Mav get on my case, I am not defending her actions, in fact I condemn every single one of them, up to joking about her past.

MC might like it, depending on your choices, there are indications that the author is giving him some "cuck points" (sadly).

I am looking for NTR elements that you don't see in most NTR stories on this site, if it was commonly well made make more allowance for peculiar twists to it but virtually no Devs has shown a capacity for even creating decent NTR. If the Dev of this story hates NTR for the same reason I do I'd wish if anything for them to create a good NTR story, the one in this story is problematic, it rides hard on Lacey being brain damaged to justify just how insane it is, and while within the story it recognize as much the fact it happen is nonsense, I seen stories where the writer clearly recognize their failure in making sense but basically justify it by 'its what need to happen for my story to work' well if that is someone's mindset than they are a lackluster writer.

Look I get why Lacey did what she did in College, my problem personally are what came within the confine of this story, the guy she let herself being pulled around on the pretense of a job, the guy she cheated on her husband with in some insane attempt to show him sex doesn't matter to her, every bits of stupidity she repeatedly has done, because the writer feel the need to keep hammering her insanity.

The problem is its killing hard the likeability of her character which is counterproductive, Hell Mia is barely better. I don't really have an issue with the rest, sure their are some secrets, like the fact every single one of the women, plus a femboy would like nothing more than for the MC to bed them., which the MC isn't aware, the fact some are variably working on trying to get their in into said bed, with or without the wife being associated with it. The clear planning by Mia to create the MC a harem to solve their issue of being only one of him and them likely otherwise have to kill one another to get him.

Look I understand their some convulated logic to what Lacey is doing and that she isn't so bad, but fucking things has hard as she has is hard to just accept it as being anywhere in the top hundred most sensible plans she could have came up with to try to help her husband. Guess what, the proper plan instead of cucking him would have been to make herself a cuckquaen, if you are trying to make that sort of point and your only solution is harming your lover, clearly you are going to far, she should have shouldered the sacrifice to begin with, rather than impose it upon him. Everyone told her its a terrible idea, how fucking obnoxious have you got to be when your BFF that basically encouraged you to slut yourself up in College tells you not to do it and you still do it? The point is again the writer is riding way too hard on her mental issue has a justify all insane actions she undertake.

Anyhow my point was I wish the Dev would remake the story of the game to make it make sense, rather than depend on plot device mental issues from drug abuse to justify every bits of stupidity she does. What I voiced were two possibilities to make it make sense and strip out the convulated plot device in favor of just making it straight. The MC is the sex maniac and the partner is the person partaking in NTR and getting corrupted. Heck if you want some plot twist have the partner actually not committing NTR, just faking sleeping around and effectively have the MC getting corrupted back into being a sex maniac that cheat on their partner, effectively creating a double whammy where the NTR comes not from the expected character, its even an implied fear the MC has in this story, that Lacey is using him sleeping around to justify herself going back to sleep around.

 

[DeviantFun]

I am looking for NTR elements that you don't see in most NTR stories on this site, if it was commonly well made make more allowance for peculiar twists to it but virtually no Devs has shown a capacity for even creating decent NTR. If the Dev of this story hates NTR for the same reason I do I'd wish if anything for them to create a good NTR story, the one in this story is problematic, it rides hard on Lacey being brain damaged to justify just how insane it is, and while within the story it recognize as much the fact it happen is nonsense, I seen stories where the writer clearly recognize their failure in making sense but basically justify it by 'its what need to happen for my story to work' well if that is someone's mindset than they are a lackluster writer.

There are no good NTR stories! (jk jk)

If you go back in this thread you will find MANY people agreeing with you, I am one of them, the brain damage is used too much as a "one size fits all" solution to every action, but then we find an extremely lucid Lacey, one that can plan and subjugate others to her will.

I cannot judge the author being lackluster or not, he definitely has a good ability in extressing emotions and the willingness to explore hard topics.

Look I get why Lacey did what she did in College, my problem personally are what came within the confine of this story, the guy she let herself being pulled around on the pretense of a job, the guy she cheated on her husband with in some insane attempt to show him sex doesn't matter to her, every bits of stupidity she repeatedly has done, because the writer feel the need to keep hammering her insanity.

I'd really like to know what you think the reasons for Lacey college "career" are.

On the rest you are right, I mentioned that the pacing of act 1 is kinda crazy, like a tragic shojo manga, where one arc resolution is followed by another tragedy.
This keeps the reader focused on the shocks and tragedies without having time to breathe, and covers many of the story flaws but also impedes the reader from understanding the characters and that is happening.

One of the easier examples is how Lacey actually plans to seduce Jared for the job (she didn't want to have sex with him, just to have him "smell" it), which doesn't exist, but she lucidly decided to betray MC trust to achieve her goal.
The author makes the reader focus fully on the dresses and so on, leaving behind a major betrayal point which is clear to the attentive reader.

The Bastion (Damian) issue is also glaring, also because the memory and drug use are protrayed weirdly.
One of the worst is during this scene, alcohol can increase arousal but lowers the ability to have orgasms, ketamine is even worse, I didn't want to take my experience as the golden standard so I asked around with some friends and checked some literature, Lacey reactions and explanations do NOT make sense, she should not be cumming every 2 seconds.

Even the further explanations we get from Mia about how Lacey behaved under the influence does not make sense with this event which is there just to create misunderstanding and emotional damage.

The silly thing, it didn't need to be, just having Lacey act like she did without underlying the orgasms would have been more than enough.

Who in the right mind will feel less betrayed because she didn't cum 3 times?

You are quite spot on here.

The problem is its killing hard the likeability of her character which is counterproductive, Hell Mia is barely better. I don't really have an issue with the rest, sure their are some secrets, like the fact every single one of the women, plus a femboy would like nothing more than for the MC to bed them., which the MC isn't aware, the fact some are variably working on trying to get their in into said bed, with or without the wife being associated with it. The clear planning by Mia to create the MC a harem to solve their issue of being only one of him and them likely otherwise have to kill one another to get him.

Mia is considerably worse in my view, as Lacey is at least caught in the crossfire, she is kept out the "crew" (for other reasons too), MC is often angry with her (doesn't lead to much but still), she has to apologize over and over.

Mia gets nothing of this, she goes around merrily, never apologizes properly, is berated ONCE by Christine which then becomes buddy buddy with her.
All the while by being a horrible human being:

• A rape survivor that cheers her best friend being sexual assaulted, not even checking if she is fine.
• Admits that what she put Lacey through in college had mental and emotional damage, but keeps on pushing her to do worse and worse, for NO reason whatsoever (we discover later that it was for herself, which is disgusting).
• Tries to break the couple up, both times for selfish reasons.
• Doesn't care about MC wellbeing, she jokes about Lacey's past constantly, even after witnessing a PTSD episode, calls him a cuck, sends him hateful messages which damage him permanently and at one of his lowest points does it again.

None of this is ever addressed, aside from her not looking at MC at the beginning of the KW, which she then proceeds to ruin (with help).

Look I understand their some convulated logic to what Lacey is doing and that she isn't so bad, but fucking things has hard as she has is hard to just accept it as being anywhere in the top hundred most sensible plans she could have came up with to try to help her husband. Guess what, the proper plan instead of cucking him would have been to make herself a cuckquaen, if you are trying to make that sort of point and your only solution is harming your lover, clearly you are going to far, she should have shouldered the sacrifice to begin with, rather than impose it upon him. Everyone told her its a terrible idea, how fucking obnoxious have you got to be when your BFF that basically encouraged you to slut yourself up in College tells you not to do it and you still do it? The point is again the writer is riding way too hard on her mental issue has a justify all insane actions she undertake.

Her BFF doesn't do much anyway aside from damage and in the end agrees to support her with Anna, but enough about her, she needs to be rewritten, she has no redeeming qualities or moments in the game.

Lacey in act 2 is kind of what you are hinting at, because she at least keep herself accountable, something that no one else does.
When Anna is caught lying to Mc she offers a weak "I'll apologize if it helps any" for example.

So now Lacey is setting up a cuckquean situation, which as you mentioned should have been the decision from day one.

In the end we are looking at Lacey character arc, improving and being better, while everyone become worse to fill the drama requirement.

Anyhow my point was I wish the Dev would remake the story of the game to make it make sense, rather than depend on plot device mental issues from drug abuse to justify every bits of stupidity she does. What I voiced were two possibilities to make it make sense and strip out the convulated plot device in favor of just making it straight. The MC is the sex maniac and the partner is the person partaking in NTR and getting corrupted. Heck if you want some plot twist have the partner actually not committing NTR, just faking sleeping around and effectively have the MC getting corrupted back into being a sex maniac that cheat on their partner, effectively creating a double whammy where the NTR comes not from the expected character, its even an implied fear the MC has in this story, that Lacey is using him sleeping around to justify herself going back to sleep around.

I agree on the plot device point, as I said before.

The funny thing is that MC IS a sex maniac, to the point where he looks pretty bad, especially at work: As a director he coerces a new hire to get naked and count her freckles and sexually harasses his former boss.

But MC has a huge bag of other issues in his characterization which are also the catalyst of some stuff that happens in act 1 and act 2.

I have to love his Steven Seagal moments that always lead to nothing because he is perceived as dangerous as a fly.
Imagine him facing down Barty or at least being seriously menacing towards Jared, that would make the threats to Veronica feel at least half true for example.

It doesn't even need to be fully physical or at all, but show his competency and latent "power".

I often said this but he is sadly mostly written as a witness, ignoring the potential of the character.

 

[Lady Lydia]

There are no good NTR stories! (jk jk)

If you go back in this thread you will find MANY people agreeing with you, I am one of them, the brain damage is used too much as a "one size fits all" solution to every action, but then we find an extremely lucid Lacey, one that can plan and subjugate others to her will.

I cannot judge the author being lackluster or not, he definitely has a good ability in extressing emotions and the willingness to explore hard topics.

I'd really like to know what you think the reasons for Lacey college "career" are.

On the rest you are right, I mentioned that the pacing of act 1 is kinda crazy, like a tragic shojo manga, where one arc resolution is followed by another tragedy.
This keeps the reader focused on the shocks and tragedies without having time to breathe, and covers many of the story flaws but also impedes the reader from understanding the characters and that is happening.

One of the easier examples is how Lacey actually plans to seduce Jared for the job (she didn't want to have sex with him, just to have him "smell" it), which doesn't exist, but she lucidly decided to betray MC trust to achieve her goal.
The author makes the reader focus fully on the dresses and so on, leaving behind a major betrayal point which is clear to the attentive reader.

The Bastion (Damian) issue is also glaring, also because the memory and drug use are protrayed weirdly.
One of the worst is during this scene, alcohol can increase arousal but lowers the ability to have orgasms, ketamine is even worse, I didn't want to take my experience as the golden standard so I asked around with some friends and checked some literature, Lacey reactions and explanations do NOT make sense, she should not be cumming every 2 seconds.

Even the further explanations we get from Mia about how Lacey behaved under the influence does not make sense with this event which is there just to create misunderstanding and emotional damage.

The silly thing, it didn't need to be, just having Lacey act like she did without underlying the orgasms would have been more than enough.

Who in the right mind will feel less betrayed because she didn't cum 3 times?

You are quite spot on here.

Mia is considerably worse in my view, as Lacey is at least caught in the crossfire, she is kept out the "crew" (for other reasons too), MC is often angry with her (doesn't lead to much but still), she has to apologize over and over.

Mia gets nothing of this, she goes around merrily, never apologizes properly, is berated ONCE by Christine which then becomes buddy buddy with her.
All the while by being a horrible human being:

• A rape survivor that cheers her best friend being sexual assaulted, not even checking if she is fine.
• Admits that what she put Lacey through in college had mental and emotional damage, but keeps on pushing her to do worse and worse, for NO reason whatsoever (we discover later that it was for herself, which is disgusting).
• Tries to break the couple up, both times for selfish reasons.
• Doesn't care about MC wellbeing, she jokes about Lacey's past constantly, even after witnessing a PTSD episode, calls him a cuck, sends him hateful messages which damage him permanently and at one of his lowest points does it again.

None of this is ever addressed, aside from her not looking at MC at the beginning of the KW, which she then proceeds to ruin (with help).

Her BFF doesn't do much anyway aside from damage and in the end agrees to support her with Anna, but enough about her, she needs to be rewritten, she has no redeeming qualities or moments in the game.

Lacey in act 2 is kind of what you are hinting at, because she at least keep herself accountable, something that no one else does.
When Anna is caught lying to Mc she offers a weak "I'll apologize if it helps any" for example.

So now Lacey is setting up a cuckquean situation, which as you mentioned should have been the decision from day one.

In the end we are looking at Lacey character arc, improving and being better, while everyone become worse to fill the drama requirement.

I agree on the plot device point, as I said before.

The funny thing is that MC IS a sex maniac, to the point where he looks pretty bad, especially at work: As a director he coerces a new hire to get naked and count her freckles and sexually harasses his former boss.

But MC has a huge bag of other issues in his characterization which are also the catalyst of some stuff that happens in act 1 and act 2.

I have to love his Steven Seagal moments that always lead to nothing because he is perceived as dangerous as a fly.
Imagine him facing down Barty or at least being seriously menacing towards Jared, that would make the threats to Veronica feel at least half true for example.

It doesn't even need to be fully physical or at all, but show his competency and latent "power".

I often said this but he is sadly mostly written as a witness, ignoring the potential of the character.

Well the way I perceive her College experience is she realized before getting there that she was dependent on the MC and likely considered herself a burden on him so she decided to leave to free him from it, without realizing she hard turned him co-dependent, so she started sleeping around to try to fill in the gap that him not being around filled, but due to the depth of the dependency it was an exercise of futility, which led her to sink deeper in depravity until the story seem to imply she likely gave up trying after Isaac, and some vague notion of time later she was reached by Anna because the MC had reached his snapping point and she needed to go back to him. This would mesh with the rest of the story with her being selfish and with a lack of consideration for what the MC would feel, thinking she 'knows best' what needs to be done, implying her poor decision making capabilities very much predated the drugs.

 

[Scaron_the_one]

Seeing the discussions about mistakes of the author and stuff. I hope the author doesn't listen to anyone here. Since it was his story to tell, that got you all so hooked up on it. There are bits that are not enjoyed by some and bits that are. But that's just how the story goes. If the story was perfect the way you would like it, you wouldn't like it.

 

[Maviarab]

Seeing the discussions about mistakes of the author and stuff. I hope the author doesn't listen to anyone here. Since it was his story to tell, that got you all so hooked up on it. There are bits that are not enjoyed by some and bits that are. But that's just how the story goes. If the story was perfect the way you would like it, you wouldn't like it.

Maybe if you'd play it you'd actually notice all the actual mistakes...(even stated in the code by the dev lol). Secondly, if the author views all these characters differently to how everyone who plays views them, then the author did a bad job of characterising them or getting his thoughts/intention across. That's 100% on them.

 

[Diosvincenccio]

About the Dev mistakes, we have to considerer that we all the tendency to keep focus on the errors because we want them corrected, nobody focus on the good parts because its already done well. So we all keep an eye on the mistakes and tend to point out them and even posible solutions. If the author sees the thread instead of getting scared or angry he should consider this kind of attention to the details as something good, we all are in a sense the quality test of the product called Love & Jealousy.

On the mistakes, i kind of clasify them on three categories, technical, timeline and narrative style. Technical is easy to explain, the cg of Lacey with three nostrils for example, nothing much to explain here. Timeline is also easy, even the dev make a note on one ocasion, sometimes the chronological order gets mixed, days repeated, or exact dates that dont make sense. Easy to made mistakes about it, easy to forgive. The part where i have more of a focus is in the narrative style, the way the story is presented, and the story in itself. And its mostly the very same author fault, since he created and narrated a wonderful story in an amazing way, any error gets more glaring.

In itself the story is about betrayal, love, regret and forgiveness. On those topics the author got on really of plenty of details about the betrayal done by various characters. And he goes deep and emotional. The betrayal part is done masterfully and it really conveys emotions on an amazing level. And thats where the big problem is. After knowing what the author is capable off, anything else feels lacking.

The love part is done a lot more one sided, but still can be felt from both the MC and Lacey, even if one part dosent act much on it and seems hellbent on prove the contrary.

The forgiveness comes cheap and instantly in lots of cases, characters that should be angry against Lacey sudenly are friendly in a couple of days. Or Lacey forgiving Mia and even rewarding her. Not to mention how the aftermath of big betrayals are skimped over and not properly adressed. (Most of what Lacey does to MC, abandoning, college slut, Jared job, Damian cucking, etc... are left without a proper explanation nor have a resolution) This charring contrast goes against the wonderfull writing that is done in the betrayal parts.

On the regret, i think its where i have the most problems with. It seems that the author sometimes confuses the character having regrets about doing something, the regrets of the consecuencies of doing it itself and the regrets of getting caught. Lets take Lacey college slut life as example. She says that she regrets it, yet she has this sex means nothing that considers better than the MC sex is love attitude, and she has no problems on going back on drugs when it serves her purpose. She regrets all the lifestyle of detached sex but is not shy about trying to change him into exactly been like that. Hence the Damian lesson. Of course with a price MC has to pay. She regrets doing all that but gives no real explanation beyond i did what i did because i did it.

The regrets comes as empty lines most of the time, without explanations of the motivations or logic of the actions, and even when one character wants to actually act on that regret, (Lacey been the only one actually wanting to improve due the regrets she has) this regret comes without instronspection, remorse, accountability, or atonement.

In the end, this differences of quality on the writing create a sensation that in the story the characters can betray others (mostly the MC) at pleasure, because anything else, like the consecuencies or the aftermath is skimped over, or at most gets a few lines of yelling or complaining by another character and that one is usuallu shunned away for expressing its feelings.

The big mistake of the dev is at the end not putting the same effort in the explanations or the consecuencies of the betrayal, than at the betrayal itself. Like the author itself only wanted to tell one part/side of the story.


By the way, DeviantFun is always right, you all know it right? Ignore this all of you, its just a private joke between us.

 

[DeviantFun]

Well the way I perceive her College experience is she realized before getting there that she was dependent on the MC and likely considered herself a burden on him so she decided to leave to free him from it, without realizing she hard turned him co-dependent, so she started sleeping around to try to fill in the gap that him not being around filled, but due to the depth of the dependency it was an exercise of futility, which led her to sink deeper in depravity until the story seem to imply she likely gave up trying after Isaac, and some vague notion of time later she was reached by Anna because the MC had reached his snapping point and she needed to go back to him. This would mesh with the rest of the story with her being selfish and with a lack of consideration for what the MC would feel, thinking she 'knows best' what needs to be done, implying her poor decision making capabilities very much predated the drugs.

She did consider herself a burden in the context that she loved MC but couldn't give him a normal relationship and, obviously, physical affection (sex included).
The dependency was an ingredient, but only because she thought that by standing alone, she would be able to overcome her issues and go back to him and give him what he craved.

She could have come back as a drug/alcohol addict without all the debauchery, but then she met Mia, that decided to "push her boundaries" (read: pimp her out to try and help herself under the guise of helping her).
As it is stated in the material, at least at the beginning, she tried to do the sex stuff just to overcome her problems and come back to MC and being able to have sex with him, remember, when she had sex the first time she thought she was cured and she could go back to him.

The objective was always to go back to him, but every step she took (and help from her "friend"), pushed her away from her target to the point of desperation.
You are correct, Isaac happened at her lowest point, but she discovered the "red bra", which gave her hope.

But the part many people miss is that her going to the deep end was an attempt from Lacey to destroy her old and weak self, the one that couldn't survive alone, the one that needed alcohol and drugs, the one that saw her father in any attempt of intimacy.
It was a process of self destruction to try a rebirth, it failed.

In my opinion the "going back to MC" took a step back during the latter periods, and the self destruction took a priority over everything, even if the two are intertwined.

You are also correct in her inability of making good choices and her selfishness, she has always been narcissistic with him, but she recognizes it even towards the end in act 1 (Lacey redemption arc starts there).

Seeing the discussions about mistakes of the author and stuff. I hope the author doesn't listen to anyone here. Since it was his story to tell, that got you all so hooked up on it. There are bits that are not enjoyed by some and bits that are. But that's just how the story goes. If the story was perfect the way you would like it, you wouldn't like it.

You do know that there are people that can offer critic even towards Lotr and other established masterpieces?

If the criticism present in this board was akin to "this sucks, the story sucks, the character sucks and it should have never been made" I would agree with you 100%.
But, while that is present, in most cases the criticism is well thought out and is given as feedback or for meaningful discussion.

Maviarab made a good point, imagine being an author and wanting a character to be percieved as calm and collected but all the audience percieve it as hot headed and all over the place, wouldn't that give you an indication that maybe some of the choices that looked good might not be so good after review?

And I don't even want to bring the coding or story continuity mistakes into it because it is a perfectly normal thing that can happen, but character perception is kinda important to the story that is being told.

Hell, I always find it funny to see comments like these, when some of us went out of our way to "protect" the author work in different platforms when he was being criticized unfairly.

About the Dev mistakes, we have to considerer that we all the tendency to keep focus on the errors because we want them corrected, nobody focus on the good parts because its already done well. So we all keep an eye on the mistakes and tend to point out them and even posible solutions. If the author sees the thread instead of getting scared or angry he should consider this kind of attention to the details as something good, we all are in a sense the quality test of the product called Love & Jealousy.

I agree with you but I often praised the author also for the good things that he does.
I will do so now, he was able to bring an amazingly interesting story to life, pushing boundaries and bringing emotions alive, he made a very hard game to make, touching some subjects with more sublety than he is given credit for.

His control of the emotions being portrayed is great, and will lull the player along to the point where many other things fade into the background, unless you have a deviated mind like me and even I missed something like the "laugh" on my first run of act 2 because I was engrossed in the moment, which is a VERY rare occurrence.

In the entirety of act 1, the player is kept guessing, most of the stuff that happens is not what someone would expect, the tension is high and the resolutions often leave dark spots that are hard to resolve.
Even in some scenes that on closer inspection have some flaws, the emotional shock that has been created is so big that you can't look away.

I could go on talking about Lacey arc, which was build step by step, sure the steps might have been too close to each other for some, but you can see Lacey 2 shining through during act 1 too, she is my favourite character for a reason.
And if you read closely you can also understand her desperate attempts to change the situation, ok the brain damage is abused a bit as a tool, but you can perceive her goals and state of mind more than anyone else.

Anyway, I agree with 99% of what Dios said, the betrayal part is masterful and I don't even like betrayals.

 

[Scaron_the_one]

You do know that there are people that can offer critic even towards Lotr and other established masterpieces?

If the criticism present in this board was akin to "this sucks, the story sucks, the character sucks and it should have never been made" I would agree with you 100%.
But, while that is present, in most cases the criticism is well thought out and is given as feedback or for meaningful discussion.

First and foremost.. I'm not here to argue. Just to clarify my first statement.
I think we misunderstood each other. Not saying it's not OK to offer critique. What I say is this. The story had gravity because how it was written. Mistakes and all. Quirks and blemishes. Even if author wouldn't be able to transform his story to text exactly how he wanted.

The result is a powerful mix that attracted big audience. This is his flow and this is how to story goes. I want him to follow on his own story.

What I'm worried that he will try to go back and overthink based on opinions that were not out of his head / his flow and try to compensate for something or insert complicated elements that explain stuff.. I don't want the author to look at 165 pages and fear that he didn't do something perfectly.

And most importantly I want another act soon

 

[Digitool]

...

What I'm worried that he will try to go back and overthink based on opinions that were not out of his head / his flow and try to compensate for something or insert complicated elements that explain stuff.. I don't want the author to look at 165 pages and fear that he didn't do something perfectly.

And most importantly I want another act soon

I can't think of another VN or game where I have been so invested in the characters (and I've played a few!)

I love Lacey & the MC, I desperately want them to team up together and defeat all and any adversaries.

I couldn't watch the Barty sequence, I speed read through everything until Christine solved it and I was able to breathe again!
Then and only then was I able to go back & watch that sequence, knowing that I wasn't going to lose my favourite lovers.

I don't hate any of the "crew", they are all carrying baggage, they all need love and care. Even Isaac - god he is so fucked up! I really hope he's going to become an integral part of Lacey and MC's "healing".

And please, act 3 ASAP, I'm so worried about them.
(ok, I'm too invested!)