DeviantFun
Active Member
- Dec 20, 2018
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You might be right, there are many people that go for NTR/harem/insert low hanging fruit slop without any issues.
I got interested (read: interested to the point of knowing the script by memory) because L&J in act 1 and 2, despite the inconsistencies (characters changing from one scene to the other) and flaws (absence of consequences is the biggest one, not only from MC) the story was compelling and fresh, with some strong themes.
MC has been heavily criticized for his flirting, or at least his flirting style, but he keeps himself accountable for that and criticizes himself about it.
Lacey is fine with it, even when it was discussed over and over that MC does not like it, didn't he have full control over her? Or it is just sometimes?
I agree on what Abby does and is used for, what I cannot agree on, and what makes the whole Vegas arc sloppy and detrimental to the story, is how it is handled since we had the same used trope for 2 acts already and the stuff she makes everyone do is getting to the verge of ridicolousness, to the point that you need to use a weak crutch like "oooohhh but everyone was on turbomagicdrugs".
I hope you do realize how much more interesting it would have been (and less trite) if Abby went in on Lacey instead of following the half NTR trope and the SAME stuff that we are seeing since act 1 (not in terms of behaviour and mistakes from the characters but copy paste of events and dynamics)?
MC fucking up and starting to realize some things? Or even understand Lacey a bit more? (which was actually one of the main points in act 1 that has been somewhat abandoned).
No the gaslighting is not there, but we already saw the Prof realizing he made a misstep and change stuff in later acts.
I doubt you have replayed or spent time reading the full script, but jeanette defends the whole thing even in private messages, describing it as the same thing as a guy going into a lingerie store and finding the lingerie sexy but not sexual.
Sure, great analogy, in the lingerie store the cashier will start touching you inappropriately (with frills and gloves! you know master dickweed never touched them directly) and calling you pet names.
It is simply a mistake driven by wanting to bring drama but trying not to make it forced NTR as promised by the author, the problem is that the justification given does NOT hold water whatsoever and I doubt that anyone that has been in the scene would disagree with me.
I absolutely do not see this as a technical issue, but as a story issue, I am interested in the story and the narrative.
He is not a servant, he is subservient, even when it defies all logic, we have seen the same EXACT thing with Bastion all of the girls and especially Lacey know full well (as it was discussed endlessly and we should know it too if we paid attention) that MC does not want these things, especially with Lacey present.
Why would the girls accept that Abby organize the thing? Wouldn't they want to be actually more involved in making it up for him? Especially Lacey and Jeanette? How is chilling with a drink and friends sending him to do stuff that they know he wouldn't do or like any sort of apology?
You see, it is a matter of not bending the characters to the story but vice versa, and it is not technical at all, it is a narrative issue that makes it less compelling because why would you be invested in a character? They will do random stuff anyway to fit whatever plothole needs to be covered.
No, KW was not successful at all (that was the whole point), in fact Lacey is unable to give him a good weekend without making it about herself and spiraling, his friends turn some games that should have been fun into another big argument and shit on him regularly (with many silly points here and there as well, such as Veronica becoming socially inept).
Remember when all four of them laughed at his face? (Lacey first ever public laugh after Jared?) yeah...
I accept plenty of flaws, but if you see roofing as goofy, more power to you.
I am not giving a subjective idea of empowerment, I am following what the material tells us about MC, his character and his behaviour.
On the matter of the LIs, is the same thing, you have read Anna for example, from that material, what is your conclusion?
I would add Christine to the mix as a very high candidate but I do not say they might not be happy to see MC get better.
If you care just enough or not at all about the characters or the story, seeing them shift and change at every arc is alright since you get your emotional kick, it is fine.
Abby is definitely a stranger, MC decides what people will be in his life AND if they accept it they are in (act 2, promotion party scene) so no, she definitely did not make the friend status.
Also, sure MC has that trait, what about all the others? (excluding Jeanette ofc).
How can you make sense for Lacey to "word vomit" all her life and the fact that she didn't love her husband (big reveal even to MC) in front of a stranger in a hotel lobby even before talking about it with his husband? (I would have understood one evening after a few days, drunk at the bar, maybe after a flirting fuckup)
That wasn't discovered in therapy, just mentioned there, and Lacey never talks too much about what happens in her sessions with MC, does it make sense that she would drop such a bomb in the middle of a conversation with MC present? When she keeps her therapy appointments very secret?
Does it make sense that Mc doesn't say anything when actually he interjected in every conversation of such kind (Lacey criticizing herself) for two acts?
How can you make sense of asking MC to spew out the rules in front of others? (one of the most intimate things and of which Mc is clearly ashamed of? I won't get into the copy paste from act 1, it would have been nice to see some of the other rules.)
The fact is, I presume so please don't take it badly, that you're not trying to make sense of it, you just go along because the shock value is more important to you than the story, and that is fine.
If the only answer "is it doesn't matter" it is difficult to engage in a meaningful conversation tho.
But as I said before, you might be more interested in the shock value than the actual value of the comprehensive story.
Let me say this, one of the reasons that actually made me get interested into L&J is that several points are very poignant and based somewhat on reality (addiction, trauma etc).
Is it realistic that Lacey became a sex goddess when in reality K fucks your motor skills up? Obviously not. (depends on how much she is taking, but to get into the K hole you need some.)
Is it realistic that Lacey is not pissing blood after her K abuse? Obviously not.
Is it realistic that she could actually complete college? Obviously not. (hoping for the giving sex to the professors for grades angle tho to salvage it).
Is it realistic that a bunch of students and their professors would fuck a girl that is unable to speak coherently and is rolling on the floor aimlessly? (try to think what the implication of what they were doing is).
And on that note, is it realistic that Lacey can speak coherently every time she is on K? (edit: depends on how much she is taking)
Edit: Plus we know she kept on mixing it with alcohol and that is a surefire way to almost pass out every time.
Heck let me add the dancing, have you ever seen a person on K dance? how did she get that good? was she using less than what is told? Was she using other drugs sometimes? was she actually having a lot of fun?
I am being pedantic here, but it is to show that I am willing to bend my suspension of disbelief quite a lot.
If I wanted to have a full on "realistic" experience I would go and re read "Go ask Alice".
But even in fiction and when you are writing something unrealistic, you need to give a sense of realism if you don't want your readers (you can check this thread for proof) to feel disassociated (see what I did there?
) from the story.If you don't try to keep your story meaningful and "relatable" you lose grittiness, you lose the poignancy.
No I am not self inserting, in fact if I had to self insert, to my extreme shame, it would be with Lacey, please stop this silly argument.
This is what Lacey reveals:
L "Do you really, in your heart, think that Mia, Jeanette and I weren't at least somewhat aware of what Abby was doing?"
L "We all knew that every time we drank the tequila shots that everything was getting..."
L "More colorful. More exciting. More fun. That our inhibitions were just falling away."
L "We weren't helpless victims."
I won't get into the whole "this is not how ex works" because the depisction was sloppy as hell, with K at least we get a very small resemblance, with this the prof could have said that they were getting Angel dust enemas and it would have felt more grounded.
MC is not about wanting them to make amends, but the girls are (guess who pays for the sauna for example?).
Lacey is remorseful but, contrary to her character up until now, delegates everything to Abby, that just fucked up royally and was accomplice in ruining her anniversary trip.
Jeanette?
This is the height of her apology:
MC "Will I be able to see you while I get my massage?"
AB "No. You're getting a private massage inside."
MC "And you'll all have fun?"
J "We'll definitely have fun."
J "Yesterday was... um..."
J "Sorry."
Not only that but they all accept MC being roofied AND grilled by Abby.
What they all do is just going around having fun and making Mc do some "activities", remember how MC actually spent his day? yeah not exactly remorseful, is it?
Mc would never accept the money back, yet not even one even proposes it, not even Jeanette for the club, after they are all shocked and sad that they spent 8k.
I understand the prof might want to drive a point, but if a reader pays any attention, the characters involved might start to be less likeable, relatable or interesting, heck, or they might not look like the characters we all have read up until now.
To give you an easy example, Mia is quasi universally despised, yet the prof keeps on hammering down how she is a great gal and everyone likes her.
Remember "Anna the lioness" yeah she likes Mia.
Remember Christine? yeah...she likes Mia too.
Remember Lacey? Heck she is her best friend! (which sadly also implicates that she cares more for Mia than MC, but that is another writing blunder).
The character was not treated correctly to match the image the prof wanted for her, why?
Because she was used for cheap drama.
That might be, being invested and having a lot of experience in the topic does not help.
Just one remark, do you remember the dialogue about the BDSM club? About going step by step and increasing the heat gradually? I think explains this situation very well.
Yep, and I am not advocating or saying that Lacey should stop fucking up, the character is written as such, she will slip up sometimes, it is completely fine.
In fact in the past I even suggested further fuck ups.
What I am saying is that her growth seen in act 2 has almost being cancelled, like act 1 and act 2 did not exist (aside from understaing Will and putting her foot down with Stephen).
Growth is not linear and is not easy, but erasing it for cheap shock value and thrills is...well not great.
This is done to cater to a specific fetish.
I probably worded my answer in an unclear way, because what I am saying is that deleting the video is shown as a matter of great growth from MC, while it is obviously not.
I am fine with him not being fixed already, from where did you take the impression that I want MC to be perfect after 1 session?
When I say the therapist does not do it for me, is because she is completely random in her assessments and you need to drink several jugs of copium to actually see her as a therapist and not an exposition tool.
Plus the guy just admitted he has suicidal tendencies.
I never said that Lacey should be perfect, it is a point I did not make.
It is completely fine how Lacey acts, she is my favourite character in the story, as I stated often, but she does not hold herself accountable like she did from end of act 1 to all of act 2.
It feels like reading act 1 Lacey, minus a couple of things.
You are absolutely correct, she was already on K in phase 1 (unbeknownst to Mia).
All the sex related stuff happened in junior year, but the progression of her college is as follows:
- throw herself into studying + drinking
- drinking from the morning
- K
- Being pimped out by Mia (junior year)
You misunderstand me, sometimes I connect to my previous posts and think that people actually have already a rough idea of my view.
Yes the years in college (we don't know much about senior year), were hellish, but she did have some fun, as stated by her too.
The issue I refer to is how she actually then portrays the situation to MC, painting herself as a victim.
Actually if you look at the event with the three stooges, it gets even worse.
I didn't ask to try harder, I just said what the path forward is, not as an opinion but as a professional backed fact since I had to go through the same.
If you want to heal, actually let me rephrase that because I find the concept of healing under these kinds of traumas very fictional (such as the silly concept of "reclaiming"), if you want to try and limit the damages with a chance to have a resemblance of normal life for you and the people around you that is what you have to do, try.
Find coping mechanisms, try to know yourself, understand why some things have specific effects on you and most importantly keep yourself accountable.
Ok let's go with your reasoning, Lacey gives wonderful relationship advices, when did she gather the experience?
No she doesn't know a lot about sex, she DID a lot of sex, a lot of unattached, rough and extreme sex.
She has no clue about sex in a long term relationship, in fact, if you read between the lines, she weaponizes sex with MC )but I think this is either a masterful depiction or a writing oversight).
Lorenzo is not the only one where she gives deep and meaningful advice, but by your reasoning she should not be able to.
And you are wrong about her naivety, in act 1 it is explained that she knew deep down that the tennis dates were not ok for example.
Where what you are saying is applicable is the scene with Bastion.
As an additional food for thought, I don't know if you plaed all the scenes and messages, but did you see how now MC is an expert in BDSM? Both in the club and in his messages?
Weird huh?
I am unsure where I said that MC should not try and fix himself, in conversation with the Prof and in this thread I never once said that MC is fine or should stay like he is.
What I am pointing out, is that you are looking at this in a very Lacey centric way, in fact you mention him not trusting her.
First of all, she keeps on breaking his trust over and over, sometimes from different point of view and values between them, sometimes because she simply fucks up, so that is already asking MC to simply accept to have his trust broken but trust anyway.
Second, how hard it is to actually state that Mc should try to heal for HIMSELF instead of doing so for others? Lacey in primis?
Not only that, but can we also recognize that Lacey DOES NOT trust MC? (If you want I can post here how many times that came up in the script).
After he has proven to her time and time again that he is not gonna cheat on her and feels remorseful even when she pushed him into doing things?
But suddenly MC trust is the only problem here.
Ok, and this is now my opinion, when looking for trust and forgiveness you should be very honest.
Well it seems that me and Abby have something in common.
AB "It's customary to be honest when seeking forgiveness."
Lacey realizes that by herself, and then she tells the therapist, she has not been corrected by anyone.
It becomes a lie from the discovery onwards.
But I get what you mean, at this point I only think that dropping the bomb in front of a stranger and a MC colleague might not have been the best thing and it would have been better to discuss with MC, since Mc at this point has no reaction.
But MC has no reaction when Isaac tells him he fucked Lacey again after she promised she would come back so...
It still put things in perspective.
Yes and no, a first time user might be scared or simply taken in, considering Jeanette character she would have been terrified, while Lacey probably not (unless you consider that being drugged is what MC asked her to avoid and she wants to avoid).
To your questions:
1) Yes, the amount of ex will have a difference based on how big you are, I never seen anyone dose themselves by that standard, only on their perception on how much they wanted to get high.
2) If you use ex repeatedly and often you will build tolerance, as with any other substance of this kind, so 1st time users (but also occasional users) will not have none of that resistance.
I addressed the topic already, Lacey, Mia and Jeanette understood the situation, "they were not helpless victims" so the flirting point stands.
Now we get into speculation, but thinking that with all the partying Lacey did in college (raves included) she probably tried various drugs.
So maybe she should also be an expert on that?
Or maybe Abby should have been careful since you should never give drugs to addicts, or give ex with alcohol (especially to first time users) or give it to strangers who you don't know that could have bad reactions (heck and could even be in medication?).
You see why this part is written badly and even the Prof admitted that he used it as a crutch? (not that I blame him for it, I just think he needsw to be careful)
The effects of ex do not work as shown anyway, not even close, and if you re read the first conversation when Mc calls Lacey to him she is not high at all, she is present.
Yes I do blame MC for things, not because he does not use "the tools that he is provided" but because he does very little to improve for himself, would I help him irl? sure, would I be able to be his friend? not even close.
Trauma might be a reason but it is not a justification.
Does that remove his status as the rightful and only victim? no.
Does this justify his treatment? no.
Does it make him the bad guy? no.
Soes it make him act badly towards Lacey? no.
The only thing he tries to do is to not hurt Lacey, it is written since act 1 and recognized by all the cast.
I feel empathy for MC as I do for Lacey, maybe a bit more for Lacey since I experienced a lot of what she went through (no I wasn't in any gangbangs being passed around, thanks for asking).
But I do not justify neither of their behaviour, but MC keeping Lacey accountable and "holding things over her head", from any point of view, would be actually a good thing (same as her having to take notes you know).
You missed the whole point tho, go check the Dianne kitchen dialogue in act 2.
That is my point.
I wasn't the only one that got the feeling that you were blaming MC, if you are not, I apologize, english is not the first language of neither of us.
It is pretty baffling, not the Bastion/Damian stuff specifically (well the use of K is, it would have been better to change it to reflect that she was high), but I am with you about Mia.
On the 4 years....well....yes and no, I have seen similar or worse things even in friendships.
I get the point of the story and I am with you, it is absolutely the point, the problem is that point is diluted with useless drama that just make little narrative sense just for the shock value, and make most readers (check this thread if you don't believe me) disconnect from the story and lose empathy towards the characters.
No wait.
Look at what Lacey says for 2 acts:
L "To be honest, I don't want you to share me either."
L "But I would do anything to make you feel better." (this was FOR Lorenzo)
L "I've tried to explain this to you before."
L "But I'd feel you doing something like this means you've stopped loving me as much."
L "It means you don't want to protect me or keep me to yourself anymore."
And there are a few more.
Lacey doesn't want to be shared AT ALL, it is hammered down for 2 foooking acts! And now it is just thrown in casually.
You are right about the cheating, I mean cuckroaches are very real.
But on this, after reading Mc for 2 acts and after reading Lacey for 2 acts, how can you reconcile that everyone is cool with it?
It is not my perception or opinion, it is the material which is the only thing I base myself on, take this easy example:
MC "You had no right to lie to me about Barty or Evan or Jared."
MC "You keeping me in the dark about that has come close to destroying us twice now."
MC "You had no right to spend our hard earned money on slutty clothes for Jared."
MC "No damn right."
MC "How dare you do that to me."
L "No I didn't have a right to do that."
L "Lying to you was wrong."
L "And there's no way for me to spin that any other way."
L "It was selfish."
L "It truly was a form of cheating on you."
MC "And even though you promised to stop dressing like a slut, you still did."
L "And I did tell you I was going to stop dressing like that."
L "Then I went and did it behind your back."
L "A serious argument could be made that I really was being unfaithful to you."
Dressing up for other men is cheating (it is picked up often after this dialogue), even if we eant to take away everything else, this is what is in the material.
Not said only by MC, but by Lacey too.
See what I mean?
You might be right, act 3 writing for me took a big nosedive is some points, Vegas in primis, while it still maintained quality on other parts, but less than the Prof's standard overall.
I am not saying that you should expect more or less, what I am saying is that I would be disappointed and sad if L&J became less poignant and be just for "the casual reader".
This VN stood out on it's own merits (or the Prof merits, I don't know the right wording here) but it took a step down and used some standard slop to just drive the story forward.
PS
Did you notice that Lacey did not even try to "heal" MC with a punish or slut night? Even when he was at his worst?
If you want to know more about K and MDMA, feel free to drop me a DM.
That was just an illusion, it is shown when Lacey sprite dissolves into Lacey with the pink babydoll.
And please use spoilers
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