Comics Collection Melissa N. Collection [2024-07-27] [Melissa N.]

[Thalantyr]

A question:
Before Joel gets plugged by Seferi, he complains that Seferi messed up and Elena "almost forced Marina to..."
The obvious thing is to say what happened to Folio, which Marina is about to until Elena floats into Dreamland suddenly.
BUT! how does Joel know this! Are they bugging Elena's hospital room? If so, why don't they know Elena is Andrew? Is Marina in cahoots with them?

Or

Joel is referring to something else besides Filip

So the reality is that we don't know. This is a mystery we simply haven't been given enough information to know the answer. Actually... Now that I'm going through it again, I've realized I jumbled up the timeline in my head. I kept thinking Seferi and Joel met "in the past", so that whatever Elena asked Marina to do could have only happened at the hospital. But that's not true. Seferi and Joel meet "in the present". We know this because after the hospital, Elena meets with Joel at dinner, and that's the conversation Seferi is angry at Joel about.

Unfortunately, this means whatever Joel is referring to about Marina's "mission" could take place anywhere inside the missing time period, not just the hospital scene.

I assume you're talking about these pages:


Seferi showed Elena the photo of Gjoka in the hospital, and Joel showed her again at the dinner party. Once Andrew regains his memories, this causes him to become suspicious of both of them:


I think it's implied that showing her these photos was meant to scare her and manipulate her into behaving a certain way, though the full extent of Seferi's plan is still unclear. But in any case, at the dinner party, Andrew didn't remember the hospital conversation with Seferi, so therefore he was not behaving how Joel expected him to, and he noticed. Right before Joel interrupts them to show the photo of Gjoka, Andrew and Marina are having this conversation:


I think Joel was about to say something like "she was about to force Marina to tell her the truth" or "break character" or "talk in an unsecure location". Something to that effect. Just theorizing here, but if Seferi and Joel know the truth about Andrew's feminization and are complicit in it, they're probably also manipulating him to avoid communicating with (and getting help from) Marina.

 

[rebirth095]

Just theorizing here, but if Seferi and Joel know the truth about Andrew's feminization and are complicit in it, they're probably also manipulating him to avoid communicating with (and getting help from) Marina.

So to "round out" the theory, let's assume for a second that they don't know about Andrew's feminization. Is there the possibility some of what they've told Elena to be true?

It seems that Joel was probably interrupting Elena and Marina on purpose, now that we know he's part of this conspiracy:



What he interrupted was:



So even if Joel doesn't know that Andrew is Elena, he might know that Marina is lying about James being her husband. If Gjoka is working with Joel and Seferi, that's not out of the question. Even if Toska isn't actually involved, if they don't know Andrew is Elena, then bringing up Andrew at the hospital and being wary of Elena calling out James as not Marina's husband stand out as strange plot points. I can't think of a satisfying theory right now, but I do wonder what exactly Marina was up to during the memory loss. There was enough time that Elena's hair has grown like 6 inches. While I'm still on the "Marina isn't complicit" camp, that's at least a few months. What was Marina doing all that time? Couldn't have just been playing house with James. Presumably, she and Elena were doing something behind the scenes when Elena's memory loss wiped out that progress. But if so, we've seen very little evidence of what that might have been.

 

[Thalantyr]

There was enough time that Elena's hair has grown like 6 inches. While I'm still on the "Marina isn't complicit" camp, that's at least a few months. What was Marina doing all that time? Couldn't have just been playing house with James. Presumably, she and Elena were doing something behind the scenes when Elena's memory loss wiped out that progress. But if so, we've seen very little evidence of what that might have been.

Just to clarify, the amount of Andrew's time unaccounted for is now just one afternoon (the day he's discharged from the hospital), so I don't think he could have been working with Marina to accomplish anything meaningful. The amount of Marina's time unaccounted for is roughly 6 weeks (4 weeks while Andrew is unconscious in the hospital, and 2 weeks during a time skip after the dinner party). Here's the sequence of events:

• Andrew and Marina visit the clinic intending for Andrew to have a minor procedure recommended by Eva and Sofia.
• Marina gets called away by James.
• Joanna shows up and has a brief conversation with Andrew in the waiting room. He drinks some tea provided by the clinic.
• Marina meets with James in the lobby of the hotel when Nikos and Joel show up. Marina introduces James to Joel as her husband.
• Andrew meets with the doctor alone, apparently drugged, and agrees to a whole raft of surgeries, which apparently are all performed that same day.
• Andrew is unconscious for 2 weeks. According to Marina, she visits at least once during this time, but the rest of her time is unaccounted for.
• Andrew wakes up for the first time post-surgery heavily bandaged and meets with the doctor, who explains the extent of the surgeries. Andrew falls unconscious again for another 2 weeks. Again, Marina's time is unaccounted for.
• Andrew wakes up again in the hospital with slightly longer hair and no bandages and meets with Seferi and then Marina. Marina mentions that he arrived at the hospital a month ago, they talk about James and Gjoka, and devise a plan to stay safe going forward which presumably includes the earring code.
• Now comes the afternoon of Andrew's time that's still unaccounted for. We know he loses his memory of the hospital at this time, and according to Angeliki he visited the salon (and presumably got hair extensions).
• Andrew wakes up at home the next morning with long hair and no memory of the previous month.
• Later that night, both Andrew and Marina attend the dinner party.
• The comic skips ahead 2 weeks. Most of Marina's time is unaccounted for. Technically so is Andrew's as far as the reader is concerned, but he's the POV character and he has full memory of this period, so I assume that if anything important happened to him during this time, we'd know about it. We can assume he's not working with Marina during this time because she later mentions attempting to get his attention several times using the codeword and being ignored.
• Andrew wakes up having regained the memories of speaking with the doctor in the hospital. He still doesn't remember speaking with Seferi or Marina or anything that came after that on the day of his discharge.
• Andrew has lunch with Dimitra and Theodora, then dinner with Nikos and sleeps with him.
• Andrew wakes up the next morning having regained the memories of speaking with Seferi and Marina in the hospital. He still doesn't remember being discharged or anything else that happened that day.

 

[rebirth095]

Thanks for spelling things out explicitly and for the fact checking. I genuinely forgot that Angeliki's dialogue with Elena basically establishes that Elena has just gotten out of the hospital.

Regardless, the hair being just extensions does tidy up the missing time frame and does address some of my confusion, although it opens others.

Before, I assumed there was a large amount of time between getting out of the hospital, and when Andrew "wakes" up. That would explain Nikos' surprise that Elena isn't acting like "Elena", the "I don't know an Andrew", and enough time for Andrew to tell the family to treat her as if she was always Elena and for them to get used to Elena acting like Elena that they would reasonably assume that this is what Andrew wants.

But now... If the time between getting out of the hospital and Andrew "waking" is literally just an afternoon... I need to rethink this a bit because this really puts some characters, especially Nikos, under a new (worse) lens.

I'll note: there was speculation before about trying to figure out if a second surgery/second hospital visit occurred. Is there a possibility that Angeliki is referring to a second hospital visit. And so we really are missing more time than just an afternoon?

I think you're right though. The simpler and cleaner answer is there was just one hospital visit and we're just missing an afternoon. Everyone's acceptance of this plan seems extremely rushed, but on the flip side, it does mean that outside of the reason for the memory loss, there's no big twists that can stick inside the memory loss time period.

 

[Thalantyr]

Before, I assumed there was a large amount of time between getting out of the hospital, and when Andrew "wakes" up. That would explain Nikos' surprise that Elena isn't acting like "Elena", the "I don't know an Andrew", and enough time for Andrew to tell the family to treat her as if she was always Elena and for them to get used to Elena acting like Elena that they would reasonably assume that this is what Andrew wants.

Well, right before Andrew woke up, in his dream (where he was regaining memories), he had just told Marina to stop calling him Andrew, even in private, they discussed that Toska must be behind the hidden cameras in the house, and Marina was just about to tell him what happened when Filip returned. I assume the conversation would have followed to a plan regarding how to behave moving forward, including the earring code, and everyone pretending that Andrew is Elena and James is Marina's husband at all times.

After that, Andrew and/or Marina could have gathered everyone together in a safe location to tell them the plan. This is why no one acts surprised to see James the next night at the dinner party, and why Nikos won't admit to knowing who Andrew is when pressed that morning.

I'll note: there was speculation before about trying to figure out if a second surgery/second hospital visit occurred. Is there a possibility that Angeliki is referring to a second hospital visit. And so we really are missing more time than just an afternoon?

I suppose it's possible that she's referring to a second hospital visit. It's also possible that she's lying about how long ago the discharge was. But both of those scenarios would require Andrew never bothering to check the current date. We know he has a smartphone, which he uses to talk to both Seferi and Joel pre and post-surgery, so that seems highly unlikely.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

Thalantyr Thank you for the timeline! It helped give me a few new thoughts. I'm typing them out in a hurry so forgive my sloppy formatting.

I think Andrew's "Aphrodite" is really the key to whole transformation working without any resistance from Andrew. "Aphrodite" is either a different personality within Andrew that he created as he has said (dissociative identity disorder) or she is an outside influence (divine or something else).

Joanna/Theodora almost has to know about Andrew's "Aphrodite" to know when and how to unlock her (alcohol/drugs). Unless it's just pure luck/coincidence along with perfect timing.

It can be assumed that if Joanna/Theodora knows about "Aphrodite" and presuming that it is a dissociative identity disorder and not divine influence, that would mean that she was informed by someone about it. If Joanna/Theodoroa is really the wife of Gjoka (poor woman ), she was probably informed by her husband and he was probably informed by Mr. Toska. Joel and Seferi could also have known about Andrew's "Aphrodite" but it isn't clear if they are working with "Toska's crew" or if they are working against them for some unknown reason. Maybe there is a plan to double cross Nikos and blackmail him for more money by keeping Andrew somewhat aware of what is going on but pretending like they are the good guys? Could this have an ending like

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?

If all of those people knew about it, the next questions are when did they learn it and from who. Joanna/Theodora drugged Andrew during the first meeting between Mr. Toska and Nikos, so it can be presumed that she knew before the meeting ever took place. Since Nikos was in contact with Mr. Toska before Andrew ever agreed to dress up as Elena, it is reasonable to assume that Nikos knew about Andrew's "Aphrodite" and was the mastermind that brought "Toska's crew" into helping with the plan to feminize Andrew.

So, presuming that Nikos knew about Andrew's "Aphrodite", he knew about it before Andrew ever arrived in Greece. It is presumable that he learned it from Marina. Maybe he learned about it from Marina's mom (the sister of Nikos) or maybe he learned from some other source, but Marina is the most logical source. Assuming that Marina knew about "Aphrodite" and understood how that could be exploited into feminizing him, I'll assume that she told Nikos about it to plot revenge against Andrew.

Feminizing Andrew for revenge is where I'm struggling to see the logic behind it. If this was all about revenge for Andrew losing Marina's money, does it really make sense for the family to spend even more money just to punish Andrew? If they can afford to throw away money just to humiliate and punish someone, then the money wasn't really that important to them, right?

If it is really just about removing Andrew from Marina's life, why turn him into her aunt? If the family sees Andrew as someone who is untrustworthy, why put him in a position of power where as the wife of Nikos, he could cause even more financial harm? If Nikos hated Andrew for what he did to his niece, why would he have wanted to turn him into his wife? How could he trust someone like that? Did Nikos and Marina plan on being able to just erase Andrew's old memories and identity? How could they have know that was even a possibility?

Marina is currently angry about how things have progressed, so it seems obvious that things are not going according to her plan. She's angry at Elena, not Andrew, not Nikos, so I'm really at a loss to understand her POV.

I am thinking more about the Stevedore100 theory of this being something like a movie or a soap opera where Andrew has lost himself within his character's role.
https://f95zone.to/threads/melissa-n-collection-2024-07-27-melissa-n.184091/post-13275510

 

[rebirth095]

Feminizing Andrew for revenge is where I'm struggling to see the logic behind it. If this was all about revenge for Andrew losing Marina's money, does it really make sense for the family to spend even more money just to punish Andrew? If they can afford to throw away money just to humiliate and punish someone, then the money wasn't really that important to them, right?

If it is really just about removing Andrew from Marina's life, why turn him into her aunt? If the family sees Andrew as someone who is untrustworthy, why put him in a position of power where as the wife of Nikos, he could cause even more financial harm? If Nikos hated Andrew for what he did to his niece, why would he have wanted to turn him into his wife? How could he trust someone like that? Did Nikos and Marina plan on being able to just erase Andrew's old memories and identity? How could they have know that was even a possibility?

Going back through it all, and with this new part, I've altered my take to streamline it down. I think:

1) Andrew screwed up and lost all of Marina and his money. But they've bounced back since then, and generally Marina has forgiven him but doesn't necessarily trust him.

2) I don't think feminizing Andrew was preplanned because if it were, basically every scenario requires Marina to have been in on the plot at the beginning. Either it's something like that chain of assumptions you made about a split personality (which I have a hard time believing). We have way more evidence suggesting all of this is surprising to her too, so I really don't think she's in on it. I mean, her primary reason about being upset right now is Elena sleeping with Nikos. It seems like that shouldn't be surprising if you knew the plot was the turn your husband into your aunt.

3) I do think that Nikos has a fetish for feminized men. He's way too eager to doing this roleplay.

4) I also think that Nikos saw an opportunity/made an opportunity when he brought up his old story and suggested Andrew dress up.

5) Given how they've treated both of them, I'm just gonna assume Nikos (and maybe his daughters too) just simply don't have a lot of respect for Andrew or Marina. They paid for the honeymoon due to being family, but just look at the way they've treated them. They've turned Andrew into a sextoy and basically laugh in Marina's face about it. Before, I considered that they were doing this to Andrew for Marina, but you know what: I'm thinking they're doing it to both of them.

What's the motivation? Well, this wouldn't be the first story (fictional or in real life) where a toxic family member takes it upon themselves for "punishing" their "loser" family member. Especially if it's one of those families that believes that having a shameful member of the family is bringing shame on to them.

Marina's apparently just a fledgling journalist. And she's married to an aspiring actor. One who lost all their savings. Couple that with some misogynistic attitudes towards women and you'd have everything you'd need to justify torturing the poor girl.

She's angry at Elena, not Andrew, not Nikos, so I'm really at a loss to understand her POV.

Now that we've clarified the timescales, I can see where her anger is coming from.

- Andrew lost all their money and apparently has some excuse that she generally accepts. But you wouldn't blame her for not fully trusting him anymore.
- Fast forward and Marina speaks to Elena at the hospital, agree upon a code word, and are now essentially the only ones on each other's side. Elena is the one that insists everyone treat her like Elena.
- The very next day, at the party, Elena starts ignoring the code word they agreed upon. And then, Elena leaves for a romantic trip where she fucks Nikos and plans a wedding.

From her POV, it really looks like there is no "Andrew", and rather, Andrew is effectively "coming out" but gaslighting her. It reminds me a bit of a situation. A married guy's best friend moved in with him while he and his wife were in a bit of a rough patch. He started not telling his wife about various school events and such, taking the best friend to them instead. The married guy kept insisting they were just really good friends, and it's just like a "brotherly bond". But it was clear that he was just in love with his best friend and was trying to replace the mother from the kid's life. Bare minimum it was clearly an emotional affair. That was a whole shitshow and he kept gaslighting the wife about how she was seeing things that weren't there. Except they were there, and behold, after he came out, he just flipped it and was accusing her of being intolerant of his sexuality.

Now, I completely agree that her not blaming Nikos is a bit weird. Maybe she doesn't feel as betrayed by Nikos because at some point, she'd already written him off as not being on her side. But she held out hope Elena/Andrew was until the whole "I'm getting married and btw I fucked your uncle".

I am thinking more about the @Stevedore100 theory of this being something like a movie or a soap opera where Andrew has lost himself within his character's role.

The weird thing to me was I was convinced the "not hypnosis" thing was going to be this whole "lost in character due to method acting", but with all we've learned now about the timeline, there isn't really time for that to have occurred.

If the timeline is as Thalantyr laid out (and I do think it's correct), then this means, there's literally no point where Andrew disassociated and was Elena. Andrew is currently missing an afternoon's worth of memories, but there's no significant time left where Nikos was interacting with an "Elena/Aphrodite" personality.

We do know that Andrew is "mode locked", in the whole can't speak English and especially during sex where he's often behaving based on how he think Elena should behave rather than behaving because he wants to behave that way. And maybe this is splitting hairs, but it feels like Aphrodite isn't really a seperate personality as much as a representation of the character Andrew has created and is emulating. To the point that he's unable to break out of emulating that character.

The reason why I'm making this distinction is that I don't think the Aprodite character is ever able to "take over"/"pilot" Andrew/Elena's body. Nor do I think that personality has their own distinct set of memories. Now, this latest chapter could torpedo this interpretation: The sex dungeon scene suggests Aphrodite having more of a distinct existence than I would have assumed. But if that dream sequence is present day, and it's only the flash back that's in the past, then I still feel strongly that Aprhodite isn't necesarily a seperate personality, but rather the metaphysical representation of how Andrew is visualizing "Elena". As such, being punished by Elena would be fitting as now that he's trapped as Elena in this conspiracy, he's effectively being punished in the real world by Elena.

 

[Stevedore100]

Thanks for all these ideas and establishing sequences of events - it's difficult to surt out the timeline of Joel and Seferi's actions as they are so jumbled in the plotline. I need to look at them again in the sequence they actually occured in real time.
I'm still of the opinion the Seferi and Joel don't know Elena is Andrew. But that is based solely on how they talk about things and their plan - it seems to me if they did know but would be a frequent topic and it never is. But perhaps Melissa is doing some intentional misdirection .
Generally I assume stories like this will go for the most simple plot solution and render most clues as red herrings. I'm beginning to think that is not the case here and we are going to get something complicated. We're getting close to the end and in addition to not knowing who the villain(s) is, we dint even really know what the crime is.

 

[Thalantyr]

Thanks for all these ideas and establishing sequences of events - it's difficult to surt out the timeline of Joel and Seferi's actions as they are so jumbled in the plotline. I need to look at them again in the sequence they actually occured in real time.

If it helps, here's my original timeline of events that I posted back when this thread first started up. It's only updated up to chapter 21 part 3, so I'll get it updated up to present this weekend. Just now I did add links to all the relevant comic pages that establish the timeline with phrases like "two weeks later" so you guys can see that I'm not just making shit up.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

Assuming that Nikos was the mastermind who plotted to feminize Andrew, he got help from Joanna and she was prepared. If Joanna is the wife or associate of Gjoka, then Mr. Toska and Joel and Seferi are probably all working for Nikos to help make this happen. The business deal was probably just deception if this was a revenge scenario. So I'm theorizing that every character knows who Andrew/Elena is and what the plan was, with the only possible exception being Marina. Though, I find it hard to believe that Nikos could have formed this plan without the knowledge about Andrew's unique "Aphrodite" situation. I also find it hard to believe that Nikos would have the motivation to do this without having Marina's consent or being fueled by her quest for revenge. Her inner dialogue has seemed innocent but her inactions have shown reasonable guiltiness.

For now, I'll ignore the possibility of divine influence or of this being a story within a story (Tropic Thunder / The Truman Show). If we are seeing the full story and most of it is not actually happening off-screen, I'm going to guess that this plan started with Marina. She knew that Andrew could be exploited in a unique way. This plan would not have worked on anyone else unless Marina and Nikos are somehow responsible for creating "Aphrodite" inside of Andrew's mind.

So assuming that Marina formed a revenge plan with her family. Nikos hired people to help. Things are not going the way Marina thought they would. I can't even speculate on what Marina was hoping for. I'm at a complete loss on trying to understand her POV within the confines of this being a revenge story. I just don't see the logical endgame. In real life, if her plan was to make Andrew disappear, whenever she went back to America without her husband, she would quickly become a suspect in his disappearance. If the plan was all about humiliation, where was the humiliation? Nobody has been actively humiliating Andrew/Elena. If sex tapes are being recorded and sent to his friends and family, doesn't that just make her family look crazy?

There seems to be side-plot where Joel and Seferi are trying to secretly use Andrew/Elena for something. I'll assume that the plan from Nikos was for Andrew to suffer an identity death but Joel and Seferi are "helping" Andrew so that they can betray everyone else for more money. They must see some way to either blackmail Nikos and walk away with most of his money or they have some plan to put Andrew/Elena into a position to steal the family fortune.

Looking at the story from this perspective, I can't help but wonder if the hospital scene with Seferi showing Andrew a picture of himself was to throw a wrench into the overall scheme and save Andrew from suffering identity death.



To me, if this is a story about revenge, everyone needed to have been in on it to some degree. So, I don't love the revenge theory because it does have some logic flaws and the family really hasn't acted like this is being done out of hatred.

On the flip side, if nobody was involved, then everything has happened through coincidence and luck. Yet, things were somehow still premeditated if Joanna is connected to Gjoka/Toska/Joel and maybe Seferi.

 

[Thalantyr]

I just can't see how Marina could be involved. First of all, it doesn't seem like she knows about Andrew's mental condition. If she did, you'd think she wouldn't have been so angry with him a few months ago since it would be outside his control. Plus, if she is now trying to exploit his condition or even if she merely suspects that Nikos or someone else is exploiting it, she wouldn't be so angry and confused now. She legitimately seems like she has no idea what's going on.

Now, if Marina doesn't know about Andrew's condition, who else could possibly know? I think it's safe to say that no one (other than a divine entity) could have figured out that Andrew has such a condition, let alone how to exploit it, since the comic started. So if anyone knows, they would have had to find out before Andrew and Marina arrived in Greece. We, the readers, know very little about this time period so it's impossible for us to guess who might know, but we may be about to find out in the next couple updates.

 

[Stevedore100]

I just can't see how Marina could be involved. First of all, it doesn't seem like she knows about Andrew's mental condition. If she did, you'd think she wouldn't have been so angry with him a few months ago since it would be outside his control. Plus, if she is now trying to exploit his condition or even if she merely suspects that Nikos or someone else is exploiting it, she wouldn't be so angry and confused now. She legitimately seems like she has no idea what's going on.

Now, if Marina doesn't know about Andrew's condition, who else could possibly know? I think it's safe to say that no one (other than a divine entity) could have figured out that Andrew has such a condition, let alone how to exploit it, since the comic started. So if anyone knows, they would have had to find out before Andrew and Marina arrived in Greece. We, the readers, know very little about this time period so it's impossible for us to guess who might know, but we may be about to find out in the next couple updates.

And we should also find out who Marina was referring to as the "bitch" "ruin her life, not again" n the last panel we saw her in and what she intends to do to "put an end to this once and for all"
If the bitch is Elena, it's odd phrasing, if it's someone else, that would indicate Marina knows someone else more than we have been shown before.

 

[Thalantyr]

And we should also find out who Marina was referring to as the "bitch" "ruin her life, not again" n the last panel we saw her in and what she intends to do to "put an end to this once and for all"
If the bitch is Elena, it's odd phrasing, if it's someone else, that would indicate Marina knows someone else more than we have been shown before.

Why do you think it's odd phrasing? I just assumed she was referring to Elena and didn't think much of it. We now know that Andrew lost their life savings, so I think that easily qualifies as "ruining her life" the first time. "Putting an end to this" could simply mean she intends to legally divorce him, which maybe she also considered but ultimately decided against the first time he ruined her life.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

I just can't see how Marina could be involved. First of all, it doesn't seem like she knows about Andrew's mental condition.

I agree! I'm kind of playing devil's advocate right now and exploring all possibilities. Yes, she doesn't seem to be aware of Andrew's "Aphrodite", at least not from anything that we the readers have seen. However, any plan to feminize Andrew would have failed if not for his condition. Imagine if this was done to James, he would have resisted without an "inner self" telling him to embrace it. So, did someone know about it or was it just pure luck that he was uniquely suited for feminization? If there was a plan to feminize Andrew, it should have been doubtful that it would have worked. It was an illogical plan and there didn't seem to be any backup plan in place for if Andrew had rebelled against what was being done to him. If this was planned, it was done with full confidence that it would succeed. So again, how would someone have known that a plan to feminize Andrew wasn't going to fail?

She legitimately seems like she has no idea what's going on.

I agree! That's why I'm analyzing the revenge theory. Her behavior is just bizarre from all story angles. Whether she knew or not. So, unless there is some bigger story going on off-screen that is influencing things in a way that we don't understand, I just don't understand her character. Her behavior maybe makes sense if reality is changing (Aphrodite theory) or if she is a worried/confused/jealous co-star on a soap opera where Andrew has lost his grip on reality.

 

[Stevedore100]

Why do you think it's odd phrasing? I just assumed she was referring to Elena and didn't think much of it. We now know that Andrew lost their life savings, so I think that easily qualifies as "ruining her life" the first time. "Putting an end to this" could simply mean she intends to legally divorce him, which maybe she also considered but ultimately decided against the first time he ruined her life.

Because it refers, paraphrasing, to "that butch doing it again." Not Andrew, but Elena. It may well be she sees than as the same person, but it just seemed odd to me.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

I'll also add that I'm really focusing on Joanna/Theodora right now. She has been a linchpin in the story. Looking back and realizing that she seems to have known about Andrew's "Aphrodite" from before she or Toska + Joel had even met Andrew is a big red flag for me. She came prepared, seemed to have plan, and was confident that it would work. So, I'm wondering how she got her information? Answering that question feels like a huge key to figuring out the story. Who is she working for and why was she confident that "drugging" Andrew would get the results that she apparently desired?

 

[Thalantyr]

However, any plan to feminize Andrew would have failed if not for his condition. Imagine if this was done to James, he would have resisted without an "inner self" telling him to embrace it.

Well, hrm... One thing we have all theorized about is that Joanna's drugs somehow trigger the Elena personality/character, but the more I think about it, the more I think there are two separate things going on. Let's forget about the method acting/dissociative identity/alternate personality issue for a moment. What if the feminization plan was simply:

1. Roofie Andrew to make him disoriented, forgetful, and compliant. This is a drug that exists in real life so it's totally feasible.
2. Get him to agree to be feminized while under the influence. First he agrees to be Elena for one night, then several months, then surgery.
3. Threaten him to make him think he needs to remain a woman as a disguise.
4. Gaslight him to make him think he's always been Elena. Given enough time trapped in this situation, it's possible this could work.
5. Keep Marina away from Andrew as much as possible, and keep her angry at him, if possible, so that she's unable or unwilling to help him escape. This could explain why Nikos, Eva, and Sofia seem to be rubbing it in Marina's face.

All of that could work without the method acting/Aphrodite condition. The main thing that the method acting provides is greatly accelerating and amplifying the effect of the gaslighting, and it's made him fall in love with Nikos which provides the readers with some steamy sex scenes so we don't have to watch Andrew just be miserable for 2000 pages. But from Nikos' perspective (or whoever is behind the feminization), if they don't know about the method acting thing, then it just looks like the plan is working way better than they anticipated.

Because it refers, paraphrasing, to "that butch doing it again." Not Andrew, but Elena. It may well be she sees than as the same person, but it just seemed odd to me.

I think in Marina's mind, Andrew has fully crossed over and become Elena. She is now referring to both past and present Elena as a woman, much like one would respectfully refer to a trans woman.

 

[rebirth095]

To be clear, I don't think this is a "revenge" story. Nikos having no respect for Marina/Andrew can happen without "revenge" being part of the motivation.

Trying to avoid coincidences is also why I'm (more so now than in the past) moving away from interpreting "Aphrodite" as a separate entity, and instead interpreting the scenes with Aphrodite as a way to represent Andrew's evolving mental state to the reader.

I really think we've got an opportunist story. Nikos got inspired to see if he could feminize Andrew. This isn't a silver bullet piece of proof, but the inner thought strikes me as Nikos genuinely coming up with this plan at that moment.



We basically know now that Seferi and Joel are working together. Joanna is Gjoka's wife. Both groups are tied to Toska and we've got strong evidence that he's not actually involved, and this is work both of these pairs (perhaps all working together) are doing independent of Toska.

I mean, could it be:

- Nikos does in fact want to land this deal with Toska and having a wife would actually help in that.

- Joel, Seferi, Joanna, and Gjoka are all just looking for a payday. Nikos was already laying down the foundation to pay these people to help make this deal happen.

- Andrew shows up and seems receptive to the idea of being feminized. This plays into Nikos' fetishes.

- Nikos keeps seducing Elena, playing out his own fantasies (proposing to her before dinner). He pays Joanna to drug Elena to loosen her up.

- Joel realizes Elena isn't a woman and wants a payday from Nikos. Or, Joel realizes Elena undergoes a lot of changes very quickly and thus there's something off. Nikos indicates that the only way he'll get that money is if the deal with Toska goes through. Thus, motivating Joel to help Nikos with his new project.

- Nikos continues to passively steer/gaslight Elena. Seeing how far he can push her insecurities, he pays off Seferi to really up the fear factor so that Elena doubles/triples down on the role. (I have to wonder, if they really did have their savings stolen, would Marina really have the spare cash to take a side vacation in Crete? It probably isn't too bad of travel and hotel costs, but still: considering they were wiped clean, you'd think that even when angry, that would be a bit of a hard cost to swallow. Makes me wonder if the "generous" uncle helped pay as an "apology" to isolate Elena for a while).

- Nikos is apparently arrogant enough to think that his dick has successfully convinced Elena to stay as Elena. Or less jokingly, maybe there's a stronger version of whatever Joanna spiked Elena's drink with.

Because we also never found out what the "weird" thing was with Filip after he returned:



Could be related to why Nikos seems so confident he's able to mentally convert Elena.

Now, Andrew being "Elena mode locked" is probably something Nikos couldn't have foreseen. I'm generally ok with this "coincidence", since it's related to his background as an actor and Nikos doesn't need to rely on the method acting for him to enjoy his feminized wife. As far as he knows, Andrew is just enjoying and committing to being a middle aged Greek woman, so I can see why no red flags are raised.

However, any plan to feminize Andrew would have failed if not for his condition. Imagine if this was done to James, he would have resisted without an "inner self" telling him to embrace it. So, did someone know about it or was it just pure luck that he was uniquely suited for feminization?

I'm not sure that's true (and I honestly don't think there's an Aphrodite "condition"). Nikos tests the waters to see if Andrew is up to pretend to be a woman, and he just says yes. We get no indication that another part of his psyche directs this answer.

From this point on, he feels threatened because people keep telling him he has to keep up this appearance for the sake of his life and the families life. I would argue, the plan would have worked regardless of the "method acting locked behavior". I would argue that the method acting part isn't what enables the plot to exist, it's the "fetishized way to describe how feminization is occurring". In that way, the "method acting" is more similar to the surgery. How the surgery gives Andrew a working vagina isn't
necessary for the plot to work. But it is necessary from a feminization progression stand point. If that makes any sense?

Who is she working for and why was she confident that "drugging" Andrew would get the results that she apparently desired?

That's why I really think the drugging was just done by Nikos to loosen Andrew up. Basically, roofie Andrew and see what falls out. Maybe Nikos gets laid that night. Frankly, I think Nikos was going to manipulate whatever drunk Elena said into prolonging "Elena time" no matter what she said.

 

[Stevedore100]

Because it refers, paraphrasing, to "that butch doing it again." Not Andrew, but Elena. It may well be she sees than as the same person,. but it just seemed odd to me.

The other thing is that Marina intends to in her words, "end this." She is justifiably pissed at Elena, but she also knows that someone has done a lot to Andrew without his knowledge. Andrew is really kind of a powerless pawn in all this. What does Marina intend to do to "end this" and how would Elena be able to be the one?

 

[rebirth095]

Well, hrm... One thing we have all theorized about is that Joanna's drugs somehow trigger the Elena personality/character, but the more I think about it, the more I think there are two separate things going on. Let's forget about the method acting/dissociative identity/alternate personality issue for a moment. What if the feminization plan was simply:

1. Roofie Andrew to make him disoriented, forgetful, and compliant. This is a drug that exists in real life so it's totally feasible.
2. Get him to agree to be feminized while under the influence. First he agrees to be Elena for one night, then several months, then surgery.
3. Threaten him to make him think he needs to remain a woman as a disguise.
4. Gaslight him to make him think he's always been Elena. Given enough time trapped in this situation, it's possible this could work.
5. Keep Marina away from Andrew as much as possible, and keep her angry at him, if possible, so that she's unable or unwilling to help him escape.

HAHA! You beat me by a second! We're totally on the same wavelength here. I really think the method acting is just a replacement for hypnosis. It's the method the feminization occurs, but not the lynchpin for the plot.