Did it give you an error message? Can you remember exactly what you did immediately before the game crashed?
- Jul 25, 2018
- 363
- 1,007
My biggest critiscism of this game currently is the battle system so it's good to know that it could be tweaked.
The problem is all fights live and die by the grapple RNG machine. If you get lucky, your grapples work, the opponent's doesn't and you win. If you get unlucky the opposite happens and you lose.
You would think slap and hair pull do the most damage. No. It's grapple.
You would think that guarding is the best way to protect yourself. No. It's grapple. The opponent can't grapple you if she's grappled by you.
Grappling is the best thing to do even when opponents can counter it because they'll just try to grapple you anyway. This does change when Missy learns counter-grapple and the winning "tactic" becomes waiting for them to grapple first since counter-grapple can't be counter-gappled.
Again, all of this with heavy doses of RNG.
Now "grapple" doesn't even sound like a word anymore.
The problem is all fights live and die by the grapple RNG machine. If you get lucky, your grapples work, the opponent's doesn't and you win. If you get unlucky the opposite happens and you lose.
You would think slap and hair pull do the most damage. No. It's grapple.
You would think that guarding is the best way to protect yourself. No. It's grapple. The opponent can't grapple you if she's grappled by you.
Grappling is the best thing to do even when opponents can counter it because they'll just try to grapple you anyway. This does change when Missy learns counter-grapple and the winning "tactic" becomes waiting for them to grapple first since counter-grapple can't be counter-gappled.
Again, all of this with heavy doses of RNG.
Now "grapple" doesn't even sound like a word anymore.
If counter-grapple can't be counter-grappled, that's a bug, as it should be. It's meant to simulate the two scrapping girls jockeying and trying to get the upper hand. So would you tone down grapple or make the other abilities stronger?
And follow-up question, how do you find this in the wrestling matches? To my mind, the idea of a two-stage process in which you have to grapple them, then can start removing clothes works quite well, but ymmv.
Interested in everyone's answers.
Oh, and I take the point about RNG. I'm not really a fan of that either, so I'll probably start trying to minimise it when/if I figure out some better way to do it.
The error message was something like a color resource (?) missing ...
I replayed the day and the dream and everything was fine, so it was likely a problem with the engine after letting the game run the whole day (partly in background) and not a bug in the script.
Do you have a plan for the fights?
Theoretically if 2 opponents have equal strength, both use the best tactics and damage/block/heal is calculated using RNG, the outcome will be a 50% chance for a win for both (like a coin flipping).
The same 50% ratio may apply if the used attacks (and heals) all deal relative damage like +-10% health, even if one opponent is stronger than the other.
(If damage per turn is really high, the opponent who strikes first may have a significant advantage. However if chance for both sides is 50% to strike first, it should be balanced and the result will again be a 50% chance to win.)
If you allow healing, in worst case the fight may continue endlessly based on RNG and damage to heal ratio ...
If the opponent is much stronger (e.g. more health, more damage dealt, more attacks per turn) and both use the best tactics, the mc will usually have only a tiny chance to win unless she can compensate the odds with better equipment, buffs, potions, ... however useful equipment and money to buy potions is rar in the game ... and mc usually cannot wait with all the fights until a higher level is granted.
I don't mind fights with a 50% chance if the win/loose scenes are interesting and the fights do not take forever to play. However if winning fights is neccessary for some progress (and loosing fights removes the same progress again), the 50% chance means that there will be no real progress in the long run (unless the player uses save scamming) ...
Some fights allow to save before the encounter, e.g. Jess in the orchard, and so can be replayed until the mc wins ... Other fights may surprise the player without option to save before, forcing the player to repeat a whole day (from save) to repeat the fight or play a couple of more days until the fight is available again ... both can cost a lot of time.
I found the fight against Poppy pointless since the odds seemed like 100:1 to beat her ... It is actually hard to imagine that the spoiled girls from the richest families should be so superior in combat with multiple attacks per turn, insane strength (damage) and insane health.
The only reason why Missy currently can win fights against multiple minor opponents or one stronger opponent is because her opponents not always use the best tactics.
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I've said from the start that the fights will always be optional, every situation has a way you can resolve it without fighting (though you may not always get the best outcome. For example,
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A common theme of enemy design is that you should make them stronger than the player. I've read multiple articles on this, the reason being that the AI is executing a semi-random routine and, as you say, won't always pick the most efficient option, whereas the player will. I... may have gone a little far with Poppy, but she is beatable if you stock up on healing items and don't get unlucky with your grapples. Plus I like the idea of her being too strong for Missy in the early game, as it makes her scarier. She is a spoiled rich girl from the posh end of town, but she's also 4 years older.
The grapple mechanic also serves to make fights quicker to resolve and less likely to be delayed by healing, especially in the wrestling matches. It's also the best way to beat multiple opponents, as I believe she does say at one point. Grappling one then waiting for her to die to attrition while playing defensively is a solid, if counter-intuitive tactic. I'm totally open to suggestions there too.
Cards on the table, I started out without a solid plan for the fights, they're the part of the game that interest me the least, and I think it shows. Which is why I'm so interested in hearing all comments and criticism of them, as they're very much a work in progress. I feel that the wrestling matches were a step in the right direction, but that there's still a lot of work to do.
For me the issue with combat is not about combat itself, it's more about how it ties into the narrative. If Missy can beat her bullies, then she's not really getting bullied, now is she? There is a certain disconnect, with submissive Missy needing to job a bit to lose properly. Not sure what would be the solution to allow for both dominant and submissive playstyles. Perhaps combat strength could be tied to sub score, so that dom Missy kicks ass and sub Missy gets her ass kicked? Or maybe Missy should start weak but have some sort of an optional quest where she's taught some fighting, which sub Missy wouldn't do?
In current version you can try to earn money (grind) and stockpile rocket fuel (15 credits, restores 250 HP), but this only works if you progressed far enough to actually earn money and have a couple of days to prepare for a fight.
I was more than once surprised by the super powers of new opponents, so my Missy was not prepared at all ...
Instead of making opponents unrealistic strong, in many situations the opponent just could be of equal strength but have minions, so that a fight against 2 or 3 opponents would be still difficult. Isolating opponents to submit to a 1:1 fight would then automatically give Missy a good chance to win.
In RPG games in general you usually can grind for consumables (one-time-use, gold-sink) and / or experience (= higher level) / better equipment with the latter usually improving the combat performance permanently.
If you don't want to add level-experience and equipment, I would not mind some simple combat experience bonus which improves Missy's combat performance (from 100% upwards), e.g. by 1% per fight won / 5 % per Boss fight won, etc.
This would allow to turn odds in boss fights a little bit toward Missy over time ...
You could also try to tie Missy's will/ability to fight to certain clothing (e.g. collar) or accessories (toys) ... but this will be difficult in school with the uniform clothing rules for all.
I was more than once surprised by the super powers of new opponents, so my Missy was not prepared at all ...
Instead of making opponents unrealistic strong, in many situations the opponent just could be of equal strength but have minions, so that a fight against 2 or 3 opponents would be still difficult. Isolating opponents to submit to a 1:1 fight would then automatically give Missy a good chance to win.
In RPG games in general you usually can grind for consumables (one-time-use, gold-sink) and / or experience (= higher level) / better equipment with the latter usually improving the combat performance permanently.
If you don't want to add level-experience and equipment, I would not mind some simple combat experience bonus which improves Missy's combat performance (from 100% upwards), e.g. by 1% per fight won / 5 % per Boss fight won, etc.
This would allow to turn odds in boss fights a little bit toward Missy over time ...
I would not do this. Missy is a switch ... she can play submissive, then turn and become dominant, etc ... if you tie combat success to sub / dom stats and vice versa, a submissive route will soon be a one-way route and you will split the game in two distinct games for sub / dom path. If you don't want to fight, you can always surrender ...
You could also try to tie Missy's will/ability to fight to certain clothing (e.g. collar) or accessories (toys) ... but this will be difficult in school with the uniform clothing rules for all.
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I mostly like the combat, but my main problem with it is, how being unlucky with grapples can turn an otherwise easy fight, really hard and a hard fight impossible.
Like the Poppy fight I had no problems with since it landed every time(and I was getting high on rocket fuel), only to lose to the 2on1 the next day because it kept missing.
What I really like is that items people give you for being helpful can have a huge impact, having herbs and Mocha really saved me in the 3on1.
And I would prefer more of that, compared to filling my bag with enough Rocket fuel from the shop, that I would be able to go to the moon if that was my wish.
As a pure Dom, I like the idea of using the Sub stat, but I think the it should be a minor bonus and only when you hit the extremes.
Like the Poppy fight I had no problems with since it landed every time(and I was getting high on rocket fuel), only to lose to the 2on1 the next day because it kept missing.
What I really like is that items people give you for being helpful can have a huge impact, having herbs and Mocha really saved me in the 3on1.
And I would prefer more of that, compared to filling my bag with enough Rocket fuel from the shop, that I would be able to go to the moon if that was my wish.
As a pure Dom, I like the idea of using the Sub stat, but I think the it should be a minor bonus and only when you hit the extremes.
- Jul 25, 2018
- 363
- 1,007
Since I'm not a game developer, these ideas might be terrible in practice but hopefully they can at least inspire someone better than me to come up with something workable.
Maybe you could significantly increase the TP cost of grapples (by 3x or something) but make it a guaranteed success. Doing so would keep grapples just as powerful, reduce RNG and hopefully keep other moves relevant if the player doesn't want to wait that long to use the strongest option. Enemies who don't have grapples (like the ringleader and blitzer in the 3vs1 fight) would be just as threatening as grapplers and combat would be more varied.
You could then also add a TP cost to breaking grapples but making it much more likely to succeed (maybe guaranteed) which would add the option of stockpiling TP defensively to break out of grapples a possible tactic.
This might make all fights longer so you could also reduce HP in general or make all moves do more damage.
A different idea, some turn-based games have warnings before enemies do certain actions. "X enemy is preparing for a powerful move" and such. This could go with the current way guarding works. Maybe add a minor TP cost to guard (since it's already better than encourage which does have a TP cost) instead of the cooldown.
Hopefully some of this helps?
Also, I agree with f96zonetrooper that tying dominance and submissiveness to combat is a bad idea. You always have the option to submit before or during fights.
Maybe you could significantly increase the TP cost of grapples (by 3x or something) but make it a guaranteed success. Doing so would keep grapples just as powerful, reduce RNG and hopefully keep other moves relevant if the player doesn't want to wait that long to use the strongest option. Enemies who don't have grapples (like the ringleader and blitzer in the 3vs1 fight) would be just as threatening as grapplers and combat would be more varied.
You could then also add a TP cost to breaking grapples but making it much more likely to succeed (maybe guaranteed) which would add the option of stockpiling TP defensively to break out of grapples a possible tactic.
This might make all fights longer so you could also reduce HP in general or make all moves do more damage.
A different idea, some turn-based games have warnings before enemies do certain actions. "X enemy is preparing for a powerful move" and such. This could go with the current way guarding works. Maybe add a minor TP cost to guard (since it's already better than encourage which does have a TP cost) instead of the cooldown.
Hopefully some of this helps?
Also, I agree with f96zonetrooper that tying dominance and submissiveness to combat is a bad idea. You always have the option to submit before or during fights.
And that's exactly why every fight is optional. In fact, in 0.2, I added new dialogue to several events to facilitate subby play - Missy gained the ability to surrender to Jess without having to try and reason with her first, kneel before the lunchtime bullies to save Mary at her own expense, etc. It's always possible to play as subby-Missy without it having any effect on your combat stats.
In my defence, I did foreshadow how hard the Poppy fight was going to be in the aborted first attempt to fight her at the park, so the player knows what's coming and has chance to prepare, although the second Jess fight could maybe stand to be less of a jump. The feedback I got from 0.1 was that fights were too easy, so I went hard the other way.
Grinding it something I don't want the player to have to do, in fact I made it one of the game's selling points.
Yeah, again, I hope to reduce the effects of RNG as we go. Glad to hear the stat boost items help, I haven't really tested them properly, so that's really useful to know. I tend not to bother with things like that when I play this sort of game.
All good suggestions. I do like the idea of making grappling easier to pull off but more expensive.
Unfortunately if you want to play Missy as Dom then the second Jess fight means almost inevitiable grind. I never bothered to go back and replay Poppy since it seemed impossible. I have to admit I don't understand how the various items work - it seems if you use them you lose momentum and then you lose anyway. All in all I think the combat mechanic is just too complicated and takes the fun out of the game for me. I'd like Dom Missy to win by wits or strength and if she loses she has more resolve and a clue as to how to win the next time. To make it fun she ultimately has to be able to succeed.
Maybe someone could post a guide on combat items, where to get then and how to use them successfully.
My $02
DrD
There is still gonna be some kind of grind even if it's not battle exp you are trying to get.
If you want healing items you need to grind money and with other items its random what you get, so that can take some time to.
It's not something that has bothered me since my save started in 0.1, but I can imagine the Poppy fight comes a lot faster if I start over and I wont be rolling in money.
Also counter-grapple does not make you immune to grapple.
- Herbal Stimulant
+5 Atk +5 Def
Can be taken before a fight
Can be obtained from the old lady who lost a wagon wheel, Maybe Mary
- Mocha Latte
+Luck +Agi Unknown bonus, my guess is 5 like herbs
I assume that helps with hitting grapples and avoiding hits, but that is hard to say.
Can be obtained by helping the lady at the (teahouse?) with the laundry.
You can get the bonus from those 2 items at least twice at the same time and I think they last 5-6 rounds.
- Friendship Bracelet
Escape from grapple
Buy in shop or from distracting the guard in the morning
- Rocket fuel
Heals you
Buy in shop
- Mind clearing tonic
No idea what it does
Mary gives it to you sometimes.
Best stategy I can give you for using items in combat is, use herbs before a big fight and heal using Rocket fuel when you are hurt.
If you want healing items you need to grind money and with other items its random what you get, so that can take some time to.
It's not something that has bothered me since my save started in 0.1, but I can imagine the Poppy fight comes a lot faster if I start over and I wont be rolling in money.
Also counter-grapple does not make you immune to grapple.
I can give you what I know, can't promise items will make everything super easy, RNG is still a part of the fights.
- Herbal Stimulant
+5 Atk +5 Def
Can be taken before a fight
Can be obtained from the old lady who lost a wagon wheel, Maybe Mary
- Mocha Latte
+Luck +Agi Unknown bonus, my guess is 5 like herbs
I assume that helps with hitting grapples and avoiding hits, but that is hard to say.
Can be obtained by helping the lady at the (teahouse?) with the laundry.
You can get the bonus from those 2 items at least twice at the same time and I think they last 5-6 rounds.
- Friendship Bracelet
Escape from grapple
Buy in shop or from distracting the guard in the morning
- Rocket fuel
Heals you
Buy in shop
- Mind clearing tonic
No idea what it does
Mary gives it to you sometimes.
Best stategy I can give you for using items in combat is, use herbs before a big fight and heal using Rocket fuel when you are hurt.
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I saved before the fight and tried different tactics ... I won by spamming grapple and guard. Grapple did much more damage (ca 120, relative damage based on health) to Jess than every other attack. Guard allowed to lengthen the fight long enough. I did not use any items.
Still the outcome might be based on RNG luck so if you are unlucky you still can loose.
Based on my recent (first) game :
- If you start in 0.3 you play chapter 1 on day 1.
- If you know how to do the delivery job you can probably finish chapter 2 in 1-2 days. After the delivery job you get option to earn money by working for Emily if you are on Abbie's quest. (Earning money would be easier if the strip job would get paid more than one time.)
- Chapter 3 starts when you read the letter, so this can be maybe on day 3 or 4 if you do not postpone it.
So the Poppy content can kick in really fast at a point where you just start to earn money. And you also need money for Abbie's quest and to buy red underwear, etc. On the other side grinding relation with Abbie and Lola can take maybe 10-15 days (depending on random events at school).
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Imho : Grinding relationship for Abbie actually does not make much sense at all since they know each other all their life (BFF) and Abbie's family is like a 2nd family for Missy and would have adopted her if the court had not given Missy to Karen. So buying the bra, spending some time in their house and keeping relationship up should probably be enough.
I would also limit the grind for Lola, just visit her several times until all options for evening at home are exhausted, then go to the pub, etc.
I just ran a couple of test fights with Poppy with a level 4 Missy. I can beat her without using items as long as my luck isn't utterly awful, but there's no room for sloppy play. She successfully landed counter-grapple 3 times and I missed several grapples myself. Nearly died twice, but won in the end. Spamming grapple/guard/encourage is the best tactic, but this isn't really how I want it to be.
I'd like this fight and the second Jess fight to be hard, but with the deciding factor being the player's skill, not RNG and spamming. So that's what I aim to fix. Again, all suggestions are welcome. Because Patrons are clamouring for the third Jess fight, I'd like to have the combat system fixed for the next release ideally.
I'd like this fight and the second Jess fight to be hard, but with the deciding factor being the player's skill, not RNG and spamming. So that's what I aim to fix. Again, all suggestions are welcome. Because Patrons are clamouring for the third Jess fight, I'd like to have the combat system fixed for the next release ideally.
Abbie's really easy to grind relationship with though. I had initially intended to have a bit more of a buildup with her and have Missy spend longer thinking her crush was unrequited, but she's sort of a beginner relationship quest who's score goes up almost by itself.
Sure it is easy but depending on random events at school, you have to spend up to 15 days with having dinner with her family which means that you have to play up to 15 times through the school day. If you can get additional relation points with Abbie during school, it will be a bit faster. (Please add a "!" mark on Abbie when there are options to progress relation with her. Maybe also add an event where Abbie and Missy go into the library ... I mistook the reading place in the south where you can skip breaks with the library for a long time.)
I would probably start Abbie relation with 10 points honoring their friendship, so the grind will be less and Missy still has to earn money and buy the bra anyway which delays the date with Abbie for some days.
There is a bug in Stacey's room that she is on some days invisible but can be talked to near her bed ...
It would be very useful to have a key to progress dialog screens one at a time without skipping and without accidently selecting the first choice that pops up ... 'X' skips dialog, so it cannot be used to read dialogs. Space and Enter have the problem that they can progress more than 1 dialog page and can select options if the key is pressed a little bit too long. This is much better solved in ren'py games where the player can roleback to re-read dialog, re-do decisions and where there is no danger of accidently selecting an option the player had no time to read ...
It would be very useful to have a key to progress dialog screens one at a time without skipping and without accidently selecting the first choice that pops up ... 'X' skips dialog, so it cannot be used to read dialogs. Space and Enter have the problem that they can progress more than 1 dialog page and can select options if the key is pressed a little bit too long. This is much better solved in ren'py games where the player can roleback to re-read dialog, re-do decisions and where there is no danger of accidently selecting an option the player had no time to read ...
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Abbie and Lola currently have relationship stories implemented.
Thanks, I'll take a look at that. What does she say out of interest? That would help me pinpoint it.
Z skips through one paragraph of dialogue at a time.