Ren'Py Monster Girl Dreams [v26.8a Alpha] [Threshold]

[Ghostload]

I don't want level scaling.

I'm a Shin Megami Tensei veteran, and even I think this game is too difficult at times -- so I ended up having to use the cheat mod.

 

[Mustang Flex]

I think level scaling could work as an optional feature. Disabled by default would be how I'd do it. Mainly as a way to let you grind the encounters of your choice and still get real progress. The game's already pretty grindy, at least getting to move at a decent clip while fighting your pick would make it better if you really like some of the enemies in lower level zones.

Although while it's probably too late to change the direction of the game as a whole, or just plain too much work. The ideal at least by my reckoning would be to add enough types of encounters events and dungeons to make grinding either minimally required, or not required at all unless you're build/strategy just sucks ass.

 

[GetInthengitout69]

I like the idea of level-scaling being optional or like a NG+ thing if you want to fight early enemies again but don't want a cake walk

 

[Pink Chaos]

Honestly, if you're so high level that you're cakewalking over everything in sight, you've been grinding a silly amount. And higher level content, from what I've heard, is planned but has yet to be added (basically will be added as areas get added). Honestly I'm glad there is no level scaling and that each area and their encounters have fixed levels, level scaling always felt weird to me in terms of gamefeel when I played games with it. And it sounds like the game dev's priorities are simply different from yours, decker.

 

[ThresholdMGD]

remind you there is no level scaling so the fights become very short and repetitive

It's been stated elsewhere (not sure if on here or not?) but enemy level scaling is planned to be added either with the labyrinth, or shortly after it. (Toggled optionally, and unlocked after the labyrinth.)

If you do want to make some fights challenging again you can use respec to drain all your stat points to equal the playing field.

and we haven't got a new girl to fight since the cavern (and the frog girl) update..

The poor bubble slime on the mountain, so new, so artless, and apparently unloved. q.q

Like by all means things haven't been moving as fast as I wanted for a while now, but I do think I should correct that. xD

more like threshold went full novel on the dialogue
also the only thing this game has tons of now is dialogue

about 6000 of the words out of the 15000 words from the elly update were for her sex scenes?
Tho the way I ended up structuring the report back stuff ended up ended up les ideal than I thought it would be.

i imaging even the labyrinth will only be like 3 new fights and 5 new love stories
before we get to the capital which will be like sex and the (monster girl)city
(or any other sitcom/novel/soap that takes place in a big city)

Labyrinth is going to be a bit different compared to the other dungeons so far, and I have stated elsewhere that it will be 4 monsters and revolve around them.
These hellhound sister's job is to stop you from getting through.

also I'd say the capital will be more like, you walked into the imp den, on a larger scale xD

 

[ankhtar]

It being optional is good, but level scaling by default in RPGs always felt immersion breaking and out of place to me. Seeing those ragged bandits in the elder scrolls series running around in full daedric armor and claymores, carrying or storing hundreds of gold at a time when they're supposed to be the easiest enemies in the game, is a sight that haunts me to this day. If they're that loaded, why are they still hitting poor farmers on the road for a couple coins and a carrot?

 

[Lewd Boi]

Level scaling will not stop me from whipping demon layer on imps and succs in one hit.

The poor bubble slime on the mountain, so new, so artless, and apparently unloved. q.q

Don't worry thresh, I love her like the 21st night of september

 

[Lewd Boi]

It being optional is good, but level scaling by default in RPGs always felt immersion breaking and out of place to me. Seeing those ragged bandits in the elder scrolls series running around in full daedric armor and claymores, carrying or storing hundreds of gold at a time when they're supposed to be the easiest enemies in the game, is a sight that haunts me to this day. If they're that loaded, why are they still hitting poor farmers on the road for a couple coins and a carrot?

After reading that, you're right. Why is there a bandit wearing a daedric armor set? Like they found it right out of the sky or something. and why they still attack farmers even after they're loaded with cash? the thrill of it? or they just like to behave like your typical 5th grade bullies?

 

[thrownawayburger]

I've been popping in and out of this thread for the past while constantly thinking about ways to politely respond to everything decker has been saying and I just find it really hard to do without degrading into ape-shitslinging. That's how much I heavily disagree with everything he's posted so far. The characters have depth to them. They have histories, motivations, reasons for being the way they are... that's one the the defining elements that make MGD leagues above the rest in the world of BFRPGs. The last time I felt to strongly about a porn game of all things was with Monster Girl Quest, and I absolutely LOVED that game's story and lewd elements. I love the novel elements of this game, and the battle fuck parts are nothing to sneeze at either. A very significant chunk of enemies have variant endings depending on what stance you lose in, with countless hidden interactions sprinkled in for specific attacks. I remember checking this game out wayyyyy back near the start, when the windows had black backgrounds and characters like Trisha didn't even have art.

Game development is a slow thing. Especially when you're running as a one-man army like Threshold is (at least, as far as I'm aware). Writing for a text based game can be easy... if you stick a monkey on a typewriter and don't give two shits about quality. With how well-written both the H-scenes and the characters themselves are, I'm more than willing to give Thresh all the time in the world they want to write stuff they're satisfied with. I'd hate to put words in mouths here, but I really believe that this is a total passion project made with genuine love and care, and I feel like that should be respected. It's fine to offer suggestions or criticisms on what you think would improve the game, but making declarations like "it be better to write battel fuck interactions and skill dialogue" and "add an option to challenge every girl to a battle fuck" just comes off as rude. At least it does to me, if nothing else.

Oh, and if you're having trouble finding challenge since you overleveled your way to levels 60-80 (and yes, I'd say you're overleveled since Amy, boss of the Caverns is level 30 and Sofia phase 2 and 3 are levels 55 and 80 respectively. And as far as I can tell, those fights aren't really meant to be challenged at easily at the level the player would normally be at after conquering the caverns) you can always try and go at the game again from scratch with another save doing another build. There are literally over 20 pages with 12 save slots EACH for Goddess's sake! And if you don't want to do new saves, you can always mess around with the console to artificially lower your level and stats, or maybe even mod the fights to be more challenging if you have the knowledge to do so.

I'd recommend that you check out games like Lust Grimm (another personal favorite of mine) or any of the other BFRPGs you can find

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as you wait for this game to further develop.

Man, I really went on a rant there. Sorry about that.

 

[decker2]

and the battle fuck parts are nothing to sneeze at either. A very significant chunk of enemies have variant endings depending on what stance you lose in, with countless hidden interactions sprinkled in for specific attacks.

yes that i love that i want more
but the romance part is getting too much, needs more battles
less text more action
dont get me wrong i love the game i'm just worry, it gets to romance heavy like a generic novel...

The poor bubble slime on the mountain, so new, so artless, and apparently unloved. q.q

ignored the bubble slime girls aren't my type
also it would be best when you add an option to challenge the npc girls to a battle fuck/sparring
maybe a tutorial fight with elena to/ or a little sparring arena in the bar
or fight the 3 campers for their food/or fighting venefica for money
or fighting amber for a discount and so on..
(also most definitely add a fight for kotone and minoni)
i'm sure you can come up with battle fucks for all of them girls

being able to fight the girls will make the game look much less like a generic novel

 

[Lazyrick]

yes that i love that i want more
but the romance part is getting too much, needs more battles
less text more action
dont get me wrong i love the game i'm just worry, it gets to romance heavy like a generic novel...

Man, what's with you and wanting more fights? You got some sorta murder boner going? but seriously, I can understanding wanting more fights, as the combat is fun (until you grind too much and can Headpat to death everything I guess), but I think most people are drawn to this game thanks to it's monstergirl fluffiness. most other games have MGs raping or getting raped, and the few that don't are typically entirely Moonrunes or horribly MTLed. So being able to play one where everything's just a little softer is great.

ignored the bubble slime girls aren't my type
also it would be best when you add an option to challenge the npc girls to a battle fuck/sparring
maybe a tutorial fight with elena to/ or a little sparring arena in the bar
or fight the 3 campers for their food/or fighting venefica for money
or fighting amber for a discount and so on..
(also most definitely add a fight for kotone and minoni)
i'm sure you can come up with battle fucks for all of them girls

being able to fight the girls will make the game look much less like a generic novel

I won't deny I'd have fun fighting the townies, but I can total understand if that never happens. I mean how often do you see Mario throw hands with a Toad? that said, I feel it'll probably happen eventually, but I think it would really have to make sense storywise. For example, Elena teaches you most of your skills, and used to be quite the powerful adventurer pre-"promotion", so I'd say she's pretty tough. (plus Thresh already had to remake the tutorial before, and scraping that again just seems dumb.) I think the best way to set this up is that fighting her is a test you need to pass to access better facilities from the guild. maybe something like higher end skill tomes, not trusted to low level adventurers? Also, I think the Arena would make more sense in the Capital, where it would make more sense to show off ones "skills".

 

[Dr. PuPu]

The poor bubble slime on the mountain, so new, so artless, and apparently unloved. q.q

I'll check her out when she gets art, but skimming through her wiki page tells me I might really like her. Don't wanna spoil myself too much though!

 

[Teleiah]

Wants more content constantly. ->Complaints about the updates.
Asks for more battles. ->Ignores/complains about the new girls.
Complains about text... in a text game!
Complains about text and no sex. ->Almost half the new text is about sex.
Wants to pretty much fuck every single thing without barely prior interaction/story. ->Is worried about the game getting repetitive.

Are you for real?
Do you actually think that making a game is just that easy?
Dont you notice that every single time you post people tend to disagree with you?

With all due respect, decker2 ... What the actual fuck is wrong with you, son?

Threshold's patience truly amazes me.

 

[decker2]

Complains about text and no sex. ->Almost half the new text is about sex.
Wants to pretty much fuck every single thing without barely prior interaction/story. ->Is worried about the game getting repetitive.
Are you for real?

With all due respect, decker2 ... What the actual fuck is wrong with you, son?

well explaining my point understandably is one of my problems i guess (i also went trolling a little)
what i mean is that the girls are missing fights, we have other monster girls
that have both great love story and battle fuck, we need more of that
especially since the girls that have only romances are hot
(kotone,minoni,venefica) not giving them a fight is a crime
im not against the romance but for fucks sake this is a battle fuck game,
what's the point of level up to 100 if you don't get to fight the greedy schoko bunny

in fact we wouldn't need small fish monster girl like the bubble slime
if we have more girls who have both romance and battle fuck,
also give perks as rewards for completing there storys
quality over quantity

i mean why you think vili is my fav, she has big part in the dungeon and romance also is abselutly adoreable
or take mika/fenk/aiko/nara/jora and the other girls that have both battel fuck and love story
either start fight then romance or romance then fight
that's what i mean/want

i hope you understand me now (don't think i can explain it better)

 

[Lewd Boi]

in fact we wouldn't need small fish monster girl like the bubble slime

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Don't diss my small fries MG's like that man. But for real, in the end, we have our own feedback to thresh that will probably or probably not be granted by him. [Like my hopes for a black scottish cyclops MG who's a drunkard, (you know what i'm referencing)].
Just remember that Thresh is mostly solo, working on this game and can't make everyone dreams come true. after all, making a good video game is a long scretch project with suprise obstacles. anyway that is from me for now. have a good day.

 

[ThresholdMGD]

It being optional is good, but level scaling by default in RPGs always felt immersion breaking and out of place to me. Seeing those ragged bandits in the elder scrolls series running around in full daedric armor and claymores, carrying or storing hundreds of gold at a time when they're supposed to be the easiest enemies in the game, is a sight that haunts me to this day. If they're that loaded, why are they still hitting poor farmers on the road for a couple coins and a carrot?

Lore wise in this case it's kind of like... overloading the grimoire I guess?

what i mean is that the girls are missing fights, we have other monster girls
that have both great love story and battle fuck, we need more of that
especially since the girls that have only romances are hot
(kotone,minoni,venefica) not giving them a fight is a crime

It's very unlikely that every character will have a direct fight. Some are designed more like traps like the lumiren.

For kotone ive gone on record before saying that she will get a fight eventually, but that's not something she should have at this time as there's no sane reason she would do that within the current span of the game.

Venefica: her quest isn't done yet. And the recent Elly update was a pre-empt to continuing/finishing the quest.
By all means it's something I originally thought would take 2 weeks to do in the planning phase and it kinda blew up into a whole thing due to underestimating some things.

in fact we wouldn't need small fish monster girl like the bubble slime
if we have more girls who have both romance and battle fuck,
also give perks as rewards for completing there storys
quality over quantity

Generic enemies are important to have in this kind of game.
Also her entire encounter took me around 3-4 days to make?
Was a bit sloppy in some places but overall turned out quite well.

but adding a fight to existing waifus as improvement (cgs and portrait can be reused for the fight)
is not as hard then coming up with a story (and new cgs) for a random slime on a mountain..

Well that's just baseless nonsense right there. o.o

and be serious here, would you rather:
romance a slime in a pot on the mountain or have a long and hot 1v1 fight with kotone?

That's merely a measure of personal preference.
and as a mention prior the entire bubble slime encounter took about 3-4 days.
A fight alone for kotone would most likely take 1-2 weeks depending on how complex it gets.

 

[Deleted member 1816908]

Good lord can we all just ignore this decker2 fella? Engaging with him is getting nowhere. Thresh has the patience of a saint.

 

[decker2]

Good lord can we all just ignore this decker2 fella? Engaging with him is getting nowhere. Thresh has the patience of a saint.

excuse me for being so obsessed with this game i love and trying to increase the battle fuck in it....
but youre right this thread might not be the right place to Conversat with threshold i better send him a pm
(i also delete some of my post sorry for the inconvenience)

Spoiler: to share my thoughts how to increase the fights

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peace

 

[Konstantinus]

Lore wise in this case it's kind of like... overloading the grimoire I guess?

Would love to do. Alternative I am looking for fighting Omega(weapen) aka Sofia Full Powa or mayby getting Trisha fucked so hard that she jumps from Rookie Lvl to Megalvl so we have our own loving Arch Succubus for friendly bedsparring.
But well I think we should first let you complete Champion Lvl with normal Succubus and bigger boobs.

 

[L30]

Apologies for the silence once again everyone, work has been quite busy and I used my last day off this past Sunday to unwind and decompress.

It's good to know the hentai Muses are still with Threshold
Hopefully the battle system will stay like this foor a while, so the (masterful) Mari example will serve the purpose of encouraging other modders to indulge in their more lurid debauched creative fantasies.
On second thought, a new dungeon nav system won't interfere with that, so the idea certainly sounds appealing.

Thanks for the Mega link (though any other provider, perhaps one with more transparency about their actions, would do). The only annoying part about gdrive, is the daily limit. That helps smoothen up things on release days.

The battle system as it currently stands will probably be fine for quite some time given how thorough the balance changes were and how well it seems to have turned out as a whole. It could potentially need or receive minor balance changes as new content arrives to keep it fair in the event some exploit on the player's or enemies' side comes to light, but combat as it stands now is in a fair place. And yes, dungeon navigation would not have any impact on that whatsoever beyond potentially impacting the number of fights in certain sections like the long hallway on the Will side of the Will-Power Temple in the event it is changed with the navigation system if it is chosen.

As for the MEGA links, I only made those since those were explicitly requested by certain individuals who had issues with the file hosts currently available. I would prefer to offer links via a different host as well given that MEGA does have some issues and could nuke that account at any moment given what has happened to Threshold's MEGA accounts in the past when they did use MEGA to offer download mirrors. I did ask those that wanted a MEGA option for downloads if there were any other acceptable hosts, but none of them replied and offered up any other hosts capable of suiting their needs, so MEGA's what is being offered for now.

(does that count as a necro?) Maaan, we've both spent a year (since October the 27th, 2019 ) ranting about no new area.
Threshold sounds raring to go and finally do the labyrinth for realsies. Let's drool and wait, and put charcoal in his socks if it's not out by X-mas.

To be fair, I replayed the game from scratch recently, and estimate the new content to be about 20h worth - that's, if you read, try different things to get the hidden candy/dialogue/skill. And ignore all the new pics commissioned from Patreon $$$. That does not mean that I agree with 1 year w/o a new opponent in a BF game, but a different perspective helps understanding the aim, and see what the point was.

Well, one year without a new opponent is not quite accurate since as Thresh mentioned, the currently unnamed

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was recently added in v23.3 and she is an opponent who can be fought on the Mountain. Next month should see a number of new encounters and a new area as the Labyrinth update is currently planned to be November's update, assuming nothing occurs to force a change for whatever reason. So while yes, it will be a little over a year without a new area due to the focus on revamping antiquated systems, tuning up balance for the game as a whole as combat, leveling and experience, and the economy were all adjusted, fleshing out older areas and expanding on existing characters, adding the early foreshadowing encounters for a Labyrinth character and a pair of Capital characters, and finally adding a new "small side thing" that happened to bloat massively in scope due to inspiration, it has still be a productive year, even if we are not currently where Threshold wanted to be at this point in time.

Venefica expanding from a small encounter to a sprawling quest is a notable element for delaying plans, but the results can be argued to have been worth the impediment to story progress. Vili was the last "small side thing" that similarly expanded from a small encounter to an entire mini-dungeon. So when inspiration strikes Thresh like this, the results have turned out to be quite well done even if they do result in impeding the arrival of other content.

I do hope that you find this informative, sandsea_urchin

is the labyrinth next?

The Labyrinth update is planned to be November's update at this point in time. Current plans are to work on a small little side project that is estimated to take a week then shift focus back to Elly's quest and Venefica's content for this month's updates and then delve into working on the Labyrinth for next month.

I do hope that this is an adequate answer to your question, decker2.

Bunny Witch candy shop owner next or Elly

This was accurate but Threshold has mentioned that they have a small intermediate project they are working on that will take roughly a week before returning to Elly and Venefica. Not entirely certain what it is as of yet, but it could very well have something to do with the latest art teaser on Patreon as Amber has redesigned art that changes her from a Drow to a Dark Elf more in line with the original vision for the character. Applehead made the new art for Amber much like they made the older art for her, so if nothing else, one can see Applehead's improvement as an artist by comparing the two pieces of art.

I do hope that you derive some value from this information, SlimeCrow.

Can't seem to trigger the new conversation with Venefica or get enough affection with Elly for the experiments. I bought all the candies and did their scenes, and reported everything to Elly

Also, trying to give Elly the choco chip clarity cookie twice causes the "Event Broke" text, and then you're in the guild and can interact with it as if it's daytime

The new conversation with Venefica is based on information from Elly and replaces her old "So are you a witch?" dialogue option with "So you're the Queen of Witches?" dialogue option.

Spoiler: New Venefica Conversation

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So that just provides a little more information and backstory on Venefica. As for Elly and being unable to unlock her experiments, you actually do NOT want to report absolutely everything to Elly. Certain options such as reporting on paying to touch Venefica's ears or that you have become Venefica's paypet reduce Elly's affection instead of increasing her progress. While the bar to access the experiments was temporarily lowered to 30 as it is currently not possible to reach the required 50 progress with Elly to unlock them normally, the total is still tight enough that a few drops in progress can soft-lock you out of her experiments until more options to raise her progress are introduced. It also doesn't help that the +5 progress for showing Elly the True Sigil of Power was not added until this update and is not retroactive.

You can use the

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to try and rectify this however. You can use

ProgressEvent[getFromName("Head over to Elly's table.", EventDatabase)].eventProgress

to check your progress with Elly. Using that same code along with say += 5 or += 10 like ....eventProgress += 10 to add 10 points of progress or using ...eventProgress = 44 to set your progress with Elly to the current maximum progress of 44 without the experiments as those can add an additional 9 points in total as each experiment can award 3 points of progress could help in the event you have locked yourself out of advancing Elly's content for the time being.

I do hope that this helps you with seeing this update's new content, Globglogabgalab69.

Genuine question. Is there any chance of their being a "Dickhead route" for everything? I mean the mc would be well within his rights considering all the bs his world seems to put him through. Dont get me wrong I LOVE the game so far but im honestly getting a little sick of being railroaded into doing the right thing. Personally if anyone betrade my trust like SEVERAL people have the mc's so far I'd be rightfully furious. Like with the three succubi on the mountain. You're told you have the option of leaving them to possibly die, are railroaded into being the good guy, and then their supplies show up not a few hours later anyway??? Seriously I wanted to reload and tell them to fucking starve.....even though you cant.

While it is doubtful that every character will receive jerk route options, there are a fair number of them as have been mentioned by doomgal. You can also be truculent to an Imp stuck in the wall while cleaning with Ancilla and just make a comment about leaving them trapped to eventually perish. Losing enough progress with Ancilla between acting like a heartless monster and a hopeless pervert can lock you out of her content as well as she'll want nothing to do with you due to your maliciousness and/or apparently only seeing Monster Girls as vessels with which to relieve your lust rather than the people they are. You can even be mean to Vili by just walking out the first time you meet her and listening to her cry, walk back in to raise her hopes, and then dash them by cruelly walking back out again causing her to sorrowfully wail as you actually leave.

There have been jokes that if you acted like a cretin to everyone and picked every churlish option, the enchantment would do Mika a solid and allow her to kick you in the groin full force.

Uhhh have you forgotten about the psycho succubus who killed and ate an incalculable amount of people AND monsters? As much as I genuinely dislike some of the characters I dont want them....physically hurt. But that monster? She straight up needs to die. Also for the record when I say a dickhead route I mean when its legitimately warranted. Such as. You know. Someone tricking you into a potentially life or death senario.

Spoiler: Discussion on Sofia

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There aint a chance in hell im gonna be a dick to Jora's sweet metaphorical ass. As someone who has.....problems making friends and keeping them I can understand her very fearful reasoning. If she stops freaking the caravans out....what reason would the mc have to come back? (in the beginning anyway.) Feng is cool so hopefully if she ever gets an expansion any revelations wont change that. As for mika, I cant remember if she has a reason for the way she is but if she doesnt and SHES expanded it better be a fucking good one. Last thing i'll talk about seriously???? Kotone killed folks too??? Was it at least justified???? Im betting not if you said innocent. So does she at the LEAST regret it?

Spoiler: Discussion on Kotone

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I do hope that you find this enlightening, Chaos La Croix.

Spoiler: Mika/Kotone stuff

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Spoiler: Even more discussion on Kotone

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I do hope that you derive some value from this, doomgal.

Personally I wouldn't mind having an actual dickhead monster girl included as an antagonist in the future, maybe a cutthroat business owner in the city or something. I mean there's no way EVERY monmusu on the continent is a misunderstood cutie with baggage. She doesn't even have to be evil per say, maybe just a character that genuinely doesn't care about what's in the protagonist's best interests.

We do know that the commander who owns the Casino in the Capital can be incredibly petty given she would essentially implement an embargo on the Will-Power Temple if the Oni Twins were to spoil her introduction by revealing her species of Monster Girl and name. So she could fit the bill given that is rather suspect behavior. Additionally, there are the few remaining active True Succubi, the extremist factions of Monster Girls like the one that advocates the total enslavement of humanity, those that do engage in human slave trading like that one Succubus who has the player fill their wine glass during the Succubus Party gloryhole scene and attempts to purchase the player from the Inn before she is informed that the player is a free worker, and so on. So I could see such a figure possibly appear in the Capital since they are confirmed to exist in lore.

I do hope that you find this information tantalizing with regards to future prospects, Khuntai.

Can someone help me install the "mari the butterfly" mod?? I have started a new save and i have this mod installed but when i go to flowery clearing it gives me a lot of script errors. I have extracted the "source zip file" on the github site to /game/Mods

It's probably because it's not updated to 23.4??

I just tested it and the mod works just fine in 23.4 if you are using v1.09 of the Mari the Butterfly mod. What does it looks like on your end as this is what it looks like for me:

Spoiler: Mari Mod in Mods Folder

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I just downloaded and extracted the zip and then dragged that folder into the Mods folder before opening the game and doing a quick run of the Mystic Forest with the clearing as one of the items in the adventure deck for that run. From the phrasing, it sounds like you downloaded the source code zip rather than the MariTheButterfly1.09 zip. If so, when you extract the source zip, the folder you get is MariTheButterfly-1.09 that then contains the MariTheButterfly folder that you'd need to drag, move, or copy over to the .../game/Mods folder. If you the folder you have there is MariTheButterfly-1.09, that could be the issue that is causing your game to experience errors when trying to enjoy the mod.

While this is not much, I do hope that you find this helpful, Oibò.

Now for development update news, to begin with there is a teaser for supporters of Amber's new art. Rather than Amber's current Drow-like appearance with her pallid complexion, the new art is more inline with Amber's text description and has the chocolate skin tone of a Dark Elf instead. Her clothes are also somewhat skimpier in this new look, so it could take some getting used to for those familiar with the current Amber art assets.

As for update progress, Threshold has announced that 23.5 will be a small intermediate project that should take a week and then work will resume on finishing up more of Elly's quest and Venefica's content for a second update this month. Then work will shift to the Labyrinth as that is planned to be November's major update. A little light on details I'll admit, but I'll share more when I know more.

I do hope that everyone interested in this information finds this at least a little useful.