Game over, and game trivialized, downgraded to normal porn. We are now at chpt 2, 3 to go. You know that there is much more to come.
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packard1928
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- Nov 16, 2018
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you are right in the chapter 3 will be the next milestone. We should know in the first few minutes what is the story with Vivian and Hutch. Even if she does tell him ( I think he can guess ) He had already conditioned himself to take the blow. He mentioned in the coded night conversation and also the time he saw them in the driveway... and walked away. God bless him... I could not be that cool !
Oh glory, somebody noticed.
Which does not mean that understanding has been reached.
Yes, what she tells Husband is a big part of what must come. After she examines her deeper self and realizes what that must be. Right now she has no idea and neither do we.
Makes sense. After you have stopped doing a thing, the next thing is to forgive yourself for ever doing it, and having been week enough to do it. That way lies sanity.
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If the wife is a morally collapsed person, it is not the boss's fault. Works nicely that way, doesn't it?
Agreed. So let's not take revenge on one for the failings of the other. So far we at not at that place with either. We speculate marvelously prematurely. Three chapters to go. 2 done.
I am sure you will find this shocking, but I thought about your argument that Vivian was showing some defiance by insisting that she tell Hutch about her being with Christian, and her refusing to stay the night with Christian, and I have decided that for me to deny that these were acts of defiance is not fair. I was thinking about her doing those things in the context of Christian's manipulations and abuse, and I see it as an example of how an abusive boyfriend will give the woman he abuses some leeway as part of his strategy to keep her, and perhaps in the case of Christian, a strategy to wear Vivian down. I spoke about this before in other posts, but abusive boyfriends/husbands/partners are not abusive all the time. If they were abusive in every interaction with their partner, they could not get their claws into the other person. They are hot sometimes, cold sometimes, cruel sometimes, and charming sometimes. They will back off some when they think they need to, but go back to their abusive behavior when they think the time is right.
Its fair to say that Vivian is psychologically abusing Hutch, she not being defiant, shes loving her abuse as it turns her on, shes a complete lying Christian sycophantic
The only reason she does this is to keep control over her relations to Hutch, to hinder further escalation and avoid the necessity to come to a final decision. Also to protect Hutch patronisingly and to feel better about the whole situation.
I'm afraid your concept of abuse (we discussed it a while ago) and victimhood leads to an interpretation, which allows itself to see every act of the wife as direct or indirect consequence of the boss's strategies. Once taken as interpretative premise,, this is not falsifiable (and not verifiable) because she has no will of her own (or it's just leeway granted by the omnipotent boss).
Such interpretations (also the one pathologizing her as having some sort of addiction like an alcoholic) take away her responsibility to the prize of disenfranchising her and painting her as without strength and will of her own. The fact the boss is abusive in situations doesn't mean she is in an abusive relationship with him where she has reduced agency. I know you want to see some middle ground here, but that's taking it too far. It's like common sense is leaving the building here allaround.
Damn guy's can't you just use simple words so the non native English speakers can follow it without having to google?
Actually Boss assumes that Wife is going to tell him those things, but she does not tell him what she is going to say. Boss offers to do the telling for her. Her response is butt out of her life with Husband.
If indeed she were going to tell Husband what Boss expects, there is no reason why it needs to happen that night. Surely it can wait while she collects another wonderful night of sex with Boss.
The implications are she intends to tell him no such thing at this point. The only thing that points to a for necessity Wife to go home is that she promised to do that.
Agreed. That does not mean that Wife showing resistance is not a new behavior for her. Or that it has no significance at all. Wait and find out.
Darn, sorry. I thought you were British. luc is polish, and so far he does not complain. Sometimes ideas are complex. And sometimes there is no good short word that can say what a big word says.
She is in no way prepared to make that decision right now.
I suspect she really does not feel good about much. In fact she says she hates herself. You might not take what she feels seriously, but that is what she feels.
"Leaving the building here allaround." I admit that as a native English speaker, I don't quite know what that means either, h_c.
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What exactly don't you get? Could probably have said All around, common sense is leaving the building. Also I'm not a native speaker either.
Not that it matters because you never answer the real arguments here.
"never answer". That's harsh. Good thing I am pretty sure my English skills are adequate to the challenges hereabouts.
Yes, I meant merely meant to support h_c's complaint. It was not too hard for me to get an idea from the context.
I disagree, and I will explain why. A person's ability to resist being emotionally and psychologically manipulated can change over time, especially if they become worn down. People have natural emotional and psychological defenses, but these are not infinite internal resources. They have limits. Think about how people get into cults and eventually do things they never thought they would do. Cult leaders know how to exploit people's weaknesses. Sometimes they oppose most of what is being taught, but over time their reason and defenses get worn down. A good defense is to recognize what is going on early, and walk away from it in the beginning. I am not giving Vivian a pass. She made several choices that got her into the situation she is in now. I think Christian, like a lot of psychopaths, spotted her weaknesses and knows how to exploit them. The humiliation and degradation changed the nature of Christian an Vivian's relationship (I think this is part of Christian's MO). If Christian was just fucking Vivian, it would be one thing. That would not necessarily mess her up psychologically. Humiliating and degrading her would break her down psychologically over time. Why do you think the military puts new recruits through hell? Think of the movie, Full Metal Jacket. The extreme treatment is designed to remove a person's natural aversion to killing.
As far as the issue of addiction, when a person becomes addicted to a substance they definitely begin to loose a lot of their agency. There are lawyers, doctors, and housewives who lost everything because they started abusing drugs. If you watch a good documentary on drug addiction, you see how people who were prescribed pain killers, and got hooked them went from law abiding citizens to thieves and prostitutes to support their drug use.
I think Vivian has agency at this point, but I believe it will decline if she continues on the path she is on. Sending a woman to get assaulted is pretty extreme, and telling her that she is your property is pretty extreme too in my opinion. I think that is what the author is trying to show us. This is what I mean when I say she may become a shell of herself, or could even flip out and kill Christian.
I had to google falsifiable, omnipotent, pathologizing, disenfranchising. Not the most common words I think.
I don't necessarily disagree with what you say here - it's the concrete application where we differ. You say "over time" - and that's exactly my point, that's what I meant when I said there are abusive actions but not an abusive relationship, which needs this time. You bring military drill and cults as examples - the show exactly that: an environment, isolation, no opportunity to leave and force over an extended period of time. Nothing of that here. We are talking about how many hours they spent with each other? Also she is an almost 50 years old teacher, who shows a very tough behavior towards her husband.
Addiction - yes of course that takes your agency away but I'm against the application of this analogy in Vivian's case. She is no addict (and you didn't make this analogy up to now I think). We agree on what you say at the end - at the moment she has agency.