Netori vs Netorare & Netorase

Gojii

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because vanilla slop is boring? only real ones fw ntr/netorare, it's the only true form of it. netori and netorase are just more goyslop for vanilla and harem fans, so it's not surprising they like those watered down versions of true ntr/netorare
As an ex-ntrbro I'd strongly disagree. NTR has become so stale that its no less boring than vanilla, I'd even argue its more boring.

We all know the outcome/ending from the start. It's just swapping out the antagonist (insert the 4 NTR antagonist meme) the woman is a literal sub 80-IQ brainlet who doesn't call the authorities when blackmailed/raped if its part of the plot, is allllllways a whore (willing or not) in the end, and the antagonist almost always has a magic and/or giant pp from 0.0001% of the population tops.

Bonus if the MC is clueless until the big reveal and cucked in person or via le video. There's like 3-4 general plots. That's it. That's 98%+ of NTR. At least vanilla/normie stuff is versatile and isn't the dead one trick horse that keeps getting beaten worse than my own meat. NTR has no shock value after the first few times. Once you see a few, you've seen them all. Plus its clearly heavily implied the viewer should be cuck POV. That's the epitome of "goyslop."

Saimin Seishidou for example absolutely shits on everything in the netorare genre because it combines absurd humor into it, rather than deranged pointless sadism for the sake of it. That's just boring. Takumi is based, despite being the epitome of a FUB, he gets rolled by one of the moms even with his powers, its hilarious.

Take the Saimin/hypnosis (netori) pill my dude. Its far better than netorare, not even close.
 
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hysepReC

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So why would people that don't self-insert play NTR? It's not emotional masochism or fantasizing about getting cucked. The answer is almost always corruption for this group. B-B-But Desmosome, why don't you just go play FMC corruption games? Well, homie, if netori is an extension/enhancement of the power fantasy aspect of being a chad in a harem game, then netorare is an enhancement of the corruption of the female by adding another aspect to her moral degeneration.
I'm still not understanding why you specifically need to play as the cuck if you just care about the "corruption". Most FMC games have a boyfriend/husband that you can cheat on, often with ugly/old/fat men. There's plenty of "moral degeneration" in them. The only real difference between FMC cheating games and netorare games is the perspective. You seek out cuck POV games, jerk off to them, and then say you don't fantasize about being cucked? Come on. :KEK:
 
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Geigi

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I'm still not understanding why you specifically need to play as the cuck if you just care about the "corruption". Most FMC games have a boyfriend/husband that you can cheat on, often with ugly/old/fat men. There's plenty of "moral degeneration" in them. The only real difference between FMC cheating games and netorare games is the perspective. You seek out cuck POV games, jerk off to them, and then say you don't fantasize about being cucked? Come on. :KEK:
What if you are a woman playing FMC games? :oops::sneaky::love::devilish::BootyTime::WeSmart::PogChamp:
 

hysepReC

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What if you are a woman playing FMC games? :oops::sneaky::love::devilish::BootyTime::WeSmart::PogChamp:
Well, most FMC corruption games are designed by men, for men. I think that most women would rather play a game with young, handsome guys than one with the ugliest, most disgusting men imaginable. But hey, I'm not a woman, so what do I know? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Gojii

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What if you are a woman playing FMC games? :oops::sneaky::love::devilish::BootyTime::WeSmart::PogChamp:
The urge to say the old image board phrase of three "words", ten letters.... :LUL: :LUL: :LUL:

Take the Saimin pill. Immerse in the idea of being completely and utterly dominated at the deepest and most powerful ways by the guy. Its hot on the side of they guy's pov doing it too. Win-win. Both get off on it.

There's even the notion of reversal and even both doing it to the other and neither knowing it, both thinking they are the one in charge. THAT is what makes the hypnosis side of it potentially really hot.

Two people potentially both unhealthily obsessed with the other hypnotizing the other would make for a really good game. Could do a male and female version with the big reveal of the overlap with both plots. Then they release the control they had on each other's memories and they just go to town on each other. Sick stuff. :PogChamp:

Whereas netorare, netorase? shits boring. Fairly linear with a predicable ending/outcome. :confused:
 
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tanstaafl

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Whereas netorare, netorase? shits boring. Fairly linear with a predicable ending/outcome.
You have found possibly the only sentence possible that could get me to defend netorase. And I'm only a moderate netorare enjoyer. But predictable outcome is expected because the outcome is not the goal, the feeling is. If you get nothing out of netorase/netorare at all other than "hey bOObs!" then this discussion is pointless. But for most people they're after a specific feeling or to be affected in some way, not a specific outcome.
 
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Geigi

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The urge to say the old image board phrase of three "words", ten letters.... :LUL: :LUL: :LUL:

Take the Saimin pill. Immerse in the idea of being completely and utterly dominated at the deepest and most powerful ways by the guy. Its hot on the side of they guy's pov doing it too. Win-win. Both get off on it.

There's even the notion of reversal and even both doing it to the other and neither knowing it, both thinking they are the one in charge. THAT is what makes the hypnosis side of it potentially really hot.

Two people potentially both unhealthily obsessed with the other hypnotizing the other would make for a really good game. Could do a male and female version with the big reveal of the overlap with both plots. Then they release the control they had on each other's memories and they just go to town on each other. Sick stuff. :PogChamp:

Whereas netorare, netorase? shits boring. Fairly linear with a predicable ending/outcome. :confused:
Saimin pill give different meanings on Google. Anyway, I recently discovered sex pollen/aphrodisiac on AO3 and it's addictive. Or alpha men and omega women releasing pheromones. Same for vampires, aliens and incubus. There's so many interesting stories and themes.
 

desmosome

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I'm still not understanding why you specifically need to play as the cuck if you just care about the "corruption". Most FMC games have a boyfriend/husband that you can cheat on, often with ugly/old/fat men. There's plenty of "moral degeneration" in them. The only real difference between FMC cheating games and netorare games is the perspective. You seek out cuck POV games, jerk off to them, and then say you don't fantasize about being cucked? Come on. :KEK:
Did you miss the part where I said FMC corruption games that include netorare, as in the FMC having a boyfriend she is cheating on, is the same netorare story that fans of the genre enjoy? So we DO play the FMC games you are talking about. It hits the same kink, just with slightly different focus on average, with the FMC games having a bit more chance of going for quantity over quality (town bicycle rather than focused route with an antagonist). The FMC games also has more tendency to gloss over the orginal relationship completely, like an off screen bf that is not really even a part of the narrative. Those tendencies tend to make it a bit less ideal for people that specifically want the corruption emphasizing the destruction of the wholesome, original relationship, but there are plenty of FMC games that do netorare right, too.

We all know the outcome/ending from the start. It's just swapping out the antagonist (insert the 4 NTR antagonist meme) the woman is a literal sub 80-IQ brainlet who doesn't call the authorities when blackmailed/raped if its part of the plot, is allllllways a whore (willing or not) in the end, and the antagonist almost always has a magic and/or giant pp from 0.0001% of the population tops.

Bonus if the MC is clueless until the big reveal and cucked in person or via le video. There's like 3-4 general plots. That's it. That's 98%+ of NTR.
This is valid, lmao. It's very reductionist, but your breakdown of the netorare structure is correct. And I can see why someone might get bored of it. That said, you can make the same reductionist interpretation of any genre. Oh, romance is so boring, we already know MC will end up with a wholesome releationship wtih one of the LIs. Oh, harem is so boring, we know this gigachad MC will bang all women who throw themselves at him. Saimin hypnosis whatever is so boring, we know the MC has cheat powers and he will abuse it to bang everything.

You are ignoring the effect and the satisfaction for the players from reading those cliche stories, whether it be sadism, masochism, depravity, wholesome vibes, power fantasy, etc.
 
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Gojii

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Saimin pill give different meanings on Google. Anyway, I recently discovered sex pollen/aphrodisiac on AO3 and it's addictive. Or alpha men and omega women releasing pheromones. Same for vampires, aliens and incubus. There's so many interesting stories and themes.
Ah my bad. Saimin = hypnosis in Japanese I'm joking about "taking the redpill" from the matrix to see a new world (finding fulfilling yet intense eroticism outside of the neto-x vs vanilla duality of genres).

You have found possibly the only sentence possible that could get me to defend netorase. And I'm only a moderate netorare enjoyer. But predictable outcome is expected because the outcome is not the goal, the feeling is. If you get nothing out of netorase/netorare at all other than "hey bOObs!" then this discussion is pointless. But for most people they're after a specific feeling or to be affected in some way, not a specific outcome.
Explain how netorare is not a predictable outcome? I'll wait. Its literally the entire point. "Feeling" or not, the outcome from the "plot" (predicable) is what drives it. That's boring.

You get the same high eventually it will become dull if there is little to no nuance. Don't try saying that NTR content the past few years hasn't almost exclusively been the same tropes over, and over and over to the point you get just partway in you have a 99% chance of knowing at least a rough outline of the rest of the story. There's no immersion or excitement when the book's cliffnotes are spoiled at the start. "I'm not like all the other NTR games" sure you aren't bud.

I can't see how one gets anything out of something you can predict as easily as a bad 1990s-2000s American teen horror flick. you know what I get out of NTR these days? Boredom. I'm not baiting nor trolling. The genre has gotten REALLY REALLY STALE.

Why? Because it necessitates relying on the same 3-4 settings/antagonists and premises, blackmail and low IQ MC optional, magical and or mythical foot long pp guaranteed if not, sometimes both. Woman is always too dumb to say anything to anyone who can help if she resists at all, and/or buys everything the antaongist is saying even if an obvious lie (confirmation bias trope), and antagonist always has plot armor (the extremely rare ~1-3% of time she seeks help, they conveninetly always happen to be in league with the antagonist in some fashion), no matter how ridiculously dumb/brazen they are being.

I find myself going "oh wow, I totally haven't seen this 142 times, but this is the 141st..." I'm not ripping on YOU personally, but my goodness dude. netorase and netorare are DOA most times because its the most recycled fetish in porn.
 

tanstaafl

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Explain how netorare is not a predictable outcome?
I didn't read a single letter past this sentence, because I didn't argue that it wasn't. I literally agreed with you and said the outcome wasn't the goal. I'm sure the rest of your post was very enthralling though.
 

Geigi

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Ah my bad. Saimin = hypnosis in Japanese I'm joking about "taking the redpill" from the matrix to see a new world (finding fulfilling yet intense eroticism outside of the neto-x vs vanilla duality of genres).


Explain how netorare is not a predictable outcome? I'll wait. Its literally the entire point. "Feeling" or not, the outcome from the "plot" (predicable) is what drives it. That's boring.

You get the same high eventually it will become dull if there is little to no nuance. Don't try saying that NTR content the past few years hasn't almost exclusively been the same tropes over, and over and over to the point you get just partway in you have a 99% chance of knowing the rest of the story.

I can't see how one gets anything out of something you can predict as easily as a bad 1990s-2000s American teen horror flick. you know what I get out of NTR these days? Boredom. I'm not baiting nor trolling. The genre has gotten REALLY REALLY STALE.

Why? Because it necessitates relying on the same 3-4 settings/antagonists and premises, blackmail and low IQ MC optional, magical and or mythical foot long pp guaranteed if not, sometimes both. Woman is always too dumb to say anything to anyone who can help if she resists at all, and/or buys everything the antaongist is saying even if an obvious lie (confirmation bias trope), and antagonist always has plot armor (the extremely rare ~1-3% of time she seeks help, they conveninetly always happen to be in league with the antagonist in some fashion), no matter how ridiculously dumb/brazen they are being.

I find myself going "oh wow, I totally haven't seen this 142 times, but this is the 141st..." I'm not ripping on YOU personally, but my goodness dude. netorase and netorare are DOA most times because its the most recycled fetish in porn.
The only NTR I played which I liked is Seeds of Chaos. It's perfect for the story theme and characters. Demons raiding a village and taking you and your wife and fighting to succumb to be their playthings, fight them and escape or joining and become a villain...
 
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Gojii

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I didn't read a single letter past this sentence, because I didn't argue that it wasn't. I literally agreed with you and said the outcome wasn't the goal. I'm sure the rest of your post was very enthralling though.
Yes, yes. Your comment was sarcastic for the start. You aren't a serious person, so it's not surprising you'd react that way. I said the feeling I get is boredom, as predictability = no suspense nor thrill. Why would I get excited over the same overused tropes that is repeated ad nauseum in almost every game in the genre? But oh well.

The only NTR I played which I liked is Seeds of Chaos. It's perfect for the story theme and characters. Demons raiding a village and taking you and your wife and fighting to succumb to be their playthings, fight them and escape or joining and become a villain...
Sound interesting. I love games where you can become the villain myself. Thanks for the recommendation. Will check it out.
 

Geigi

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Yes, yes. Your comment was sarcastic for the start. You aren't a serious person, so it's not surprising you'd react that way. I said the feeling I get is boredom, as predictability = no suspense nor thrill. Why would I get excited over the same overused tropes that is repeated ad nauseum in almost every game in the genre? But oh well.


Sound interesting. I love games where you can become the villain myself. Thanks for the recommendation. Will check it out.
Yeah, unfortunately the game isn't finished yet and I dropped it a long time ago.
 

Letstryitout

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I think tanstaafl made a thread about Netori not so long ago, I'll say the same thing I said there. I think reason Netori isn't all that popular is that people prefer to be the good guys rather than being an Asshole, but other side of NTR you are not the bad guy. Netori content is usually de-sanitized to be humorous or romantic.

As to why the whole genre is popular and becoming more popular, I think it's because people engage in self-pleasure far more than at any time in history. They get bored and ask for new things, which creates a demand. I think NTR/Corruption, fucked up as it is still the last tags that still stick to "Sex" before going to further into degenerancy, but unless you have a fetish further stuff won't give arousal to common man. That makes Corruption and the NTR the last point in the journey for many, which makes it popular.
 
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Jaike

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The numbers themselves were referring to the poll results, although I did state it in such a way as to attribute it to the whole population. But well, that's basically sampling and in a non-scientifically rigorous environment of a porn piracy forum, I just made the assumption that the sample represents the whole.

But this is definitely enough sample size to be reasonably confident about the conclusions, when we consider the population of people on F95zone that visits the off-topic section, and can be bothered to click a choice in a POLL, especially if that conclusion is basically, "not everyone self-inserts in general for porn games and and the percentage is even lower for NTR fans."

Also, this result is not different from other people's polls of similar nature asking if people self-insert or not.
I don't dispute, again, the conclusion about less NTR fans self-inserting than in vanilla genres, or about there being people who don't self-insert (lol, duh). And for poll voters in general discussion and offtopic, yeah it could be pretty accurate.

But it was to underline I just don't think the poll results represent the whole of active users. As another example take polls about male or female protagonists like:
https://f95zone.to/threads/male-or-female-protagonist.47712/
https://f95zone.to/threads/female-protagonist-vs-male-protagonist.23832/
These show a slight preference for female protagonist, I think I saw some others that were almost 50 50. But any evidence for the actually popular games suggests that male MCs are way more popular. GGGB and AWAM are exceptions.

This is valid, lmao. It's very reductionist, but your breakdown of the netorare structure is correct. And I can see why someone might get bored of it. That said, you can make the same reductionist interpretation of any genre. Oh, romance is so boring, we already know MC will end up with a wholesome releationship wtih one of the LIs. Oh, harem is so boring, we know this gigachad MC will bang all women who throw themselves at him. Saimin hypnosis whatever is so boring, we know the MC has cheat powers and he will abuse it to bang everything.
That hypothetical reductionist interpretation could be done for other genres, but it misses a few structural differences. One is that the NTR genre is about an arc, while romance (wholesome or not) or harem are about endings tho that usually implies an arc. Sanguine Rose is an unvanilla game with harem endings without any harem arcs, to give an unusual example. The expectation of an arc creates more constraints compared to an expectation of endings, tho most romance/harem games rehash a lot of tropes. The other more important difference is that the average plot structure's different between netorare and a significant share of romance and harem games. Many romance/harem games have a dual plot where the main plot is more story-driven while the romantic plot is secondary, while in most NTR games the NTR plot is central but it maybe have a subordinate story hook. Aisling and the Tavern of Elves is a romance example where the romance plot is so underdeveloped it feels like a last minute add on, while the quirky narrative plot (fantasy comedy with many historical details) carries the whole VN. Eternum and Talothral's games are more mainstream examples of this plot structure with very different implementations.

I think that second structural difference matches audience expectation. A common point from many NTR fans (and netorase fans too) is that they see their fav genre as pretty much porn, tho they aren't exactly the type that insist non-porn adult games are pretentious. A lot of vanilla harem fans, especially purists, see AVNs as distinct from porn, but they aren't in the story-first non-porny adult stories camp either. It should in theory be possible to combine an NTR arc with a psychological thriller plot, I mean the ingredients are there, but the question is who it'd be for.

Of course the other details you mentioned in the rest matter too in their own way, and can make a story more unique.
 
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desmosome

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The expectation of an arc creates more constraints compared to an expectation of endings
I've made this exact point myself before somewhere. And it's precisely why NTR is so same same. There is a whole outline of necessary or standard plot structure. Whereas romance or whatever is a bit more of an abstract idea that doesn't dictate specific plot points (although fixing the LIs issues seems to be a thing always lol). But I mean, reductionist is reductionist. There are plenty of details that can put a fresh spin or simply just an interesting variation to the formula.


But it was to underline I just don't think the poll results represent the whole of active users. As another example take polls about male or female protagonists like:
https://f95zone.to/threads/male-or-female-protagonist.47712/
https://f95zone.to/threads/female-protagonist-vs-male-protagonist.23832/
This is a new one that I have to consider. The data doesn't match expectations, and the expectation is so intuitive that it's hard to reject it.

I think that second structural difference matches audience expectation. A common point from many NTR fans (and netorase fans too) is that they see their fav genre as pretty much porn, tho they aren't exactly the type that insist non-porn adult games are pretentious. A lot of vanilla harem fans, especially purists, see AVNs as distinct from porn, but they aren't in the story-first non-porny adult stories camp either. It should in theory be possible to combine an NTR arc with a psychological thriller plot, I mean the ingredients are there, but the question is who it'd be for.
NTR being so much about the story arc tends to overshadow any attempts at a core plot. And the fact that NTR, as a story, is possible without any kind of underlying plot, also leads to many such stories that are basically just the fetish. Although harem can exist as kind of sandbox gotta catchem all story with very little plot outside of banging the women on the map, on average, it will have a more meaty plot underneath than NTR. Romance (barring straight dating sims) tend to be much more grounded and closer to traditional media in structure, so we could argue that they have the greatest need to provide a nice underlying plot. And that's probably why any game that could legitimately be considered for story-first designation are probably of the romance variety.
 
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