New Trend! Fire shots at game developers

[PirateWorks]

Along the lines of these threads..

https://f95zone.to/threads/attn-game-devs.29470/

https://f95zone.to/threads/why-are-game-developers-so-obsessed-with-gigantic-breasts.29375/

https://f95zone.to/threads/why-dont-devs-upload-or-promote-their-content-on-f95.29362/

https://f95zone.to/threads/consistency-between-dialog-thought-and-action.29343/

And others.

What is this new trend about making threads telling game developers how to make their respective games?

They make games for free. Playing those games is a choice. Paying/ Supporting the game is a choice. You can contact specific developers directly through alternative means. You can make your own game and lead by example instead of correcting others.

I am just curious as to what is the thought process that leads to people making threads like "GAmE dEveLoPer iDIoT nEEd tO Do ThiS".

Reminds me of the average taxpayer Karen that walks into a McDonalds and teaches employees how a mllion dollar franchise should be run.

 

[morphnet]

I think people make those posts for the same reason you made this one. Some feel passionately about the entertainment / porn they play. Granted some might be trolling but some just hope their thoughts are read / passed on the devs.

 

[Yamakasi20]

ok, challenge accepted.

why?

When you create something, people connect to it. And when people connect, they get attached and to see the creation succeed will draw some sort of illusory ownership of the creation.

Drawing that false ownership they start identifying themselves with the success of the game, and wishing it to succeed they see loopholes (let's say like a critique) the same way people get mad at their favourite football players when they loose the ball.

However, this is not a game & fans relationship, this is a product & potential clients relationship (patreons are clients, patreon is a money machine). And clients are much more entitled to name what they'd like.

But take a different perspective now, what is the objective of the game? Is it making money or is it creating something that stays true to your vision as a creator, cause those 2 give very different results.

Money making is about pleasing the masses, true vision is about delivering something genuine. None of them is wrong, just pertain different behaviours and reactions to the critiques, fans or whatever.

EXAMPLE:
I am a creator, my objective is to make 1000$/month & i make small boobs on girls. I earn 500$/month currently. Someone says "yo, this game sucks, i want bigger boobs". What do i do with that commentary? I make bigger boobs on the next update & watch how it will affect my objective. After i made the change, do i make 510$/month? DId it draw me closer to my objective? or do i drop to 450$ and I should revert the change? It's all trial and error.

 

[baneini]

You could start by assuming people aren't omniscient.
Forums are constructed to allow people to share their thoughts to other people who might not know what they know.
I guess OP suffers from extreme lack of empathy to even begin to ask such bizarre questions. Yes he says somewhat factual things but it's lacking any sort of understanding of human emotions? Like he really wants people to just make their own game instead of discussing games with other people? Really?

 

[PirateWorks]

Just a little heads up, people can post suggestion in the threads of the games they play. I even said:

You can contact specific developers directly through alternative means

I am not against people voicing their opinions.

I just feel that rant threads aren't a constructive form of criticism/ suggestion. And yet, this very trend seems to be gaining popularity, the thought of which really baffles me.

I would be glad to stand corrected, but please make a good argument. Strawman and adhominem wont do.

 

[DarthSeduction]

However, this is not a game & fans relationship, this is a product & potential clients relationship (patreons are clients, patreon is a money machine). And clients are much more entitled to name what they'd like.

Wrong. Patreon is the hat a street performer places out on the street. The human statue isn't going to start playing wonderwall for you. If you think what the human statue is doing is worth your money, you'll give it, if you don't you can go find the guy with the guitar playing wonderwall.

I find the rest of your post rather cynical, but would caution that the best way to get fans to jump ship is to start changing things. Don't alienate your 500 for the demands of the 10.

 

[anne O'nymous]

EXAMPLE:
I am a creator, my objective is to make 1000$/month & i make small boobs on girls. I earn 500$/month currently. Someone says "yo, this game sucks, i want bigger boobs". What do i do with that commentary? I make bigger boobs on the next update & watch how it will affect my objective. After i made the change, do i make 510$/month? DId it draw me closer to my objective? or do i drop to 450$ and I should revert the change? It's all trial and error.

Do this, and the support you'll loose, you'll have a really hard time to regain it. For the majority, you'll not loose it because those people don't want big boobs, but because they want a stable game, with an effective story, and wrote by someone who know where he goes.
There's exceptions, like Ecchi Sensei, where the poll his more to decide which of the many stories will advance in the next update, or Dreams of Desires, where it offered alternate clothes for the next update. But mostly games who care too much about players opinion are really cheap, whatever how good they where at first. Or they end abandoned, like the Ethan's legacy serie, because the Author have a nervous breakdown trying to care about players desires while not completely destroying his story.

Players should understand that they have the right to not play a game they dislike, or a game that don't have what they are searching for. Their demands could have made sense in the past, at a time where adult games where rares, but nowadays there's hundreds of them. We can choose what game we will play, we can be very selective, we'll find a game that correspond to our desires.
But no, some still think that they should play them all, that their life will not be completed if they haven't faped to all the adult games. And so they come with meta threads explaining how to write a game according to their own desires, while they ask for this game to have more of that, and to that game to have less of this. @DarthSeduction have it with his two games, and the demand is the same for both, "remove this stupid BJ". There's around 3800 games availables here, he make 2 of them. But no, instead of searching among the 3 798 other games all those that don't start with a BJ, they ask for those games to be changed. Like if it's the author that should change his game to met their taste, not them that should find a game according to their taste...

 

[J..D]

In my personal opinion,

It's okay lo listen to advice from your supporters, but when you are building a game purely based on the wishes, preferences, rants of your fans ... Well, your game is going to fail.

Not only because your game will be a mix up of dozens of personal preferences and rants, but also because it will NOT be your game and if you look at the history with many devs on this site who wanted to create a game based on their fans wishes that will cause you to lose fun and motivation to continue.

If you ask a random person on this site "what do you want" chances are that they will say
-A incest themed games, that i can easily click through with many naughty interactions.

If you ask a random pledger on this site "what to you want" chances are that they will say.
-A game that works, a game a developers stick with and developer that's passionate about his project.

Most people that pay want a developer that sticks with his creative ideas and has a clear picture of what he wants.
If won't even pledge to a developer that ask the community questions that influence the story, characters or gameplay.. Simply because for me that says 1 thing... This developer has no idea what he wants to do and probably will be gone in a month or 2.

Of course it's okay to make a poll every now and then for different outfits or cosplay events, but never gameplay, story or anything like that.

But like Anne O'nymous said above
Main problem of course is that person's from the "horny horde" think that every game is made for them alone, that a developer lives to create a game for them.
Instead of looking for the games already on this site available for them, they want to change every game for their personal wishes.
(I say honestly, i am guilty of that last part to.....There are some games that would be perfect for me without NTR, but instead of bitching about it...I just avoid those games)

In short.
Stick with your own personal ideas, your own creative direction, your own story.
Better to have 25 loyal fans and pledgers and having then 100 horny idiots that only want a quick-fix...

 

[polywog]

Follow the money... game players don't have pockets as deep as the political activist groups that are funding developers who make certain types of games. The game devs are listening to the higher paying organizations, rather than the players. Can you blame them? Money talks. The ammount of cash being thrown around by these groups is incredible. Let the dev cash in while they can. Instead of complaining to the developer... support the modders who are making mods that change the game and make it more to your liking.

 

[ThisIsMe88]

What is this new trend about making threads telling game developers how to make their respective games?

And what is it to you ? Aren't forums all about providing feedback ? Would you maybe prefer people to remain brain-fried Facebook sheep clicking "Like" buttons all day long ?

They make games for free.

I don't think so, most don't (and for some legitimately so, since they deserve whatever constitutes their pay/reward out of it). You'll have to double-check your sources, because we aren't browsing the same site.

Playing those games is a choice. Paying/ Supporting the game is a choice. You can contact specific developers directly through alternative means. You can make your own game and lead by example instead of correcting others.

And who exactly are you to tell people what they can and should do ? Pretending to be what you're not, some kind of forum judge waving his tiny e-dick about criticizing people who... uh, criticize other stuff ?

People provide feedback because they feel like it. They may like a game or a genre (and be passionate about it) or not. They may want to share valuable insight with other players, so that they too can know what they're getting into, or get opinions themselves. Some authors show up on these forums, so this feedback must not be all that bad if they actively participate to them, even in threads that do not pertain to their own games.

Finally, your "alternative means" will be another forum anyway, so why not here in the first place, or wherever people chose to do it without waiting for your genius input ?

I just feel that rant threads aren't a constructive form of criticism/ suggestion. And yet, this very trend seems to be gaining popularity, the thought of which really baffles me.

You really seem to have no clue about communication processes, and you should probably go out and learn a thing or two about it before we continue. There are times where it's all about gathering ideas, suggestions, critics and even totally useless stuff, just so we can put a word or a concept on it, keep or discard it at the end of the day, and move onwards.

Not all of what we hear, read or learn in our life will be pleasant, and it takes a mature adult to make something out of it that will eventually be useful to us, to adapt, to grow smarter and become a better person out of all the feedback we've received ourselves.

Most authors, especially inexperienced ones, crave for attention and such feedback. Smart authors manage perfectly fine to weed out the unnecessarily negative comments without other users white-knighting for them or their games. Experienced authors just ignore whatever crap people can come up with, since they will have learned since then and let the success of their games be the only fact that matters.

This is nothing that you'll ever manage to change, no matter how hard you cry for people to shut up because something displeases you.

 

[Daxter250]

Wrong. Patreon is the hat a street performer places out on the street. The human statue isn't going to start playing wonderwall for you. If you think what the human statue is doing is worth your money, you'll give it, if you don't you can go find the guy with the guitar playing wonderwall.

I find the rest of your post rather cynical, but would caution that the best way to get fans to jump ship is to start changing things. Don't alienate your 500 for the demands of the 10.

hmmm, yes and no
the thing is, i can listen to the musician on the streets beforehand and decide later on if i wanna give him some money. on patreon you often face a paywall that prevents you from testing out stuff. ofc. not always, but often enough i would say. or to make it better understandable: i can easily find out a musician who plays the tune i wanna hear, cause he has to play anyway in order to attract people. on patreon you often have to trust the dev to provide ya with stuff he is promising and (more often than not) pay in order to find out if his promises are true.

 

[khumak]

Personally, I think the more feedback the better. Using my mod as an example, if nobody comments then I don't know what people liked or didn't like. I don't know what mistakes I'm making. There have been things I've changed recently that I would have changed months ago if I had known it was a problem and now I have stuff baked in there that doesn't match or would take too much work for it to be worth it to go back and fix.

Anything that doesn't give any useful info and is just bitching or whatever can just be ignored. Usually there is some useful info in most of the feedback though about what people like, don't like, what they wish was in there, what they think of the writing, etc. You might need a thick skin to skip over the stuff where people are just saying this game sucks or whatever but that's just the way it is.

 

[PirateWorks]

And what is it to you ? Aren't forums all about providing feedback ? Would you maybe prefer people to remain brain-fried Facebook sheep clicking "Like" buttons all day long ?

And who exactly are you to tell people what they can and should do ? Pretending to be what you're not, some kind of forum judge waving his tiny e-dick about criticizing people who... uh, criticize other stuff ?

I specifically said this:

I am just curious as to what is the thought process that leads to people making threads like "GAmE dEveLoPer iDIoT nEEd tO Do ThiS".

But yea.. making a strawman about me wanting to control people is much easier to argue against lol.

People provide feedback because they feel like it. They may like a game or a genre (and be passionate about it) or not. They may want to share valuable insight with other players, so that they too can know what they're getting into, or get opinions themselves. Some authors show up on these forums, so this feedback must not be all that bad if they actively participate to them, even in threads that do not pertain to their own games.

I already said this:

I am not against people voicing their opinions.

Finally, your "alternative means" will be another forum anyway, so why not here in the first place, or wherever people chose to do it without waiting for your genius input ?

No? Developers have discord, PM on forums, dedicated game development threads etc. where they could receive specific feedback about their game. It isn't the same as surfing through rant threads in general discussion.

This is nothing that you'll ever manage to change, no matter how hard you cry for people to shut up because something displeases you.

Did I say anything about changing anything? I simply put my thoughts up for discussion. Maybe I change my way of thinking in favor of a better argument.

But after all that wall of text, I am still waiting for you to make a point. Filtering out all the ad hominem attacks and general nonsense, all that remains is.. "People posting rant threads on general discussions is best course of action" which bring us back to the initial point I made by posting this thread...

Also, please try to make a direct point. No more 200 IQ text walls. Thanks.

 

[Joshua Tree]

ok, challenge accepted.

why?

When you create something, people connect to it. And when people connect, they get attached and to see the creation succeed will draw some sort of illusory ownership of the creation.

Drawing that false ownership they start identifying themselves with the success of the game, and wishing it to succeed they see loopholes (let's say like a critique) the same way people get mad at their favourite football players when they loose the ball.

However, this is not a game & fans relationship, this is a product & potential clients relationship (patreons are clients, patreon is a money machine). And clients are much more entitled to name what they'd like.

But take a different perspective now, what is the objective of the game? Is it making money or is it creating something that stays true to your vision as a creator, cause those 2 give very different results.

Money making is about pleasing the masses, true vision is about delivering something genuine. None of them is wrong, just pertain different behaviours and reactions to the critiques, fans or whatever.

EXAMPLE:
I am a creator, my objective is to make 1000$/month & i make small boobs on girls. I earn 500$/month currently. Someone says "yo, this game sucks, i want bigger boobs". What do i do with that commentary? I make bigger boobs on the next update & watch how it will affect my objective. After i made the change, do i make 510$/month? DId it draw me closer to my objective? or do i drop to 450$ and I should revert the change? It's all trial and error.

Uh, I wouldn't necessary say money making is about pleasing the masses. If you look at games outside of adult games and patreon, and all the "live service", ingame cash shops, loot boxes and bullshit. That is all about the money and not about please the masses. A game you might pay 60 bucks up front to play might turn into 10 times (or way more), but the time you done with it.

I would say creators that start a game, and then start to shape it after the wishes and desires of the users/players is doing a terrible job at creating an experience. Because not every player have the same desires and fetishes, you can turn your fandom at war with itself doing this. I much rather a creator create the game/story they set out to do, and if I end up not like it, I find something else to do. Stay true to your vision and stop chase the money. The later will come if your game/story is good.

Everyone stand free to make their own games/stories if no creator can fulfill their desires satisfactory. But then again maybe they don't like the idea of find themselves at the other end of the stick of critics

 

[Joshua Tree]

Follow the money... game players don't have pockets as deep as the political activist groups that are funding developers who make certain types of games. The game devs are listening to the higher paying organizations, rather than the players. Can you blame them? Money talks. The ammount of cash being thrown around by these groups is incredible. Let the dev cash in while they can. Instead of complaining to the developer... support the modders who are making mods that change the game and make it more to your liking.

Uh, what political activist groups are funding what games/devs now? Would be nice with names and examples...

In regard of not listening to the players, yeah see how well that went for the likes of Electronic Arts and Blizzard Activision. Epic Games banked like 3 billion USD last year mostly due to Fortnite, the industry as whole trying to chase the golden fleece for that cash cow. Players have deep pockets when they chose to, and there is something good to spend it on...

 

[Zippity]

Along the lines of these threads..

https://f95zone.to/threads/attn-game-devs.29470/

https://f95zone.to/threads/why-are-game-developers-so-obsessed-with-gigantic-breasts.29375/

https://f95zone.to/threads/why-dont-devs-upload-or-promote-their-content-on-f95.29362/

https://f95zone.to/threads/consistency-between-dialog-thought-and-action.29343/

And others.

What is this new trend about making threads telling game developers how to make their respective games?

They make games for free. Playing those games is a choice. Paying/ Supporting the game is a choice. You can contact specific developers directly through alternative means. You can make your own game and lead by example instead of correcting others.

I am just curious as to what is the thought process that leads to people making threads like "GAmE dEveLoPer iDIoT nEEd tO Do ThiS".

Reminds me of the average taxpayer Karen that walks into a McDonalds and teaches employees how a mllion dollar franchise should be run.

The world is filled with varying personalities, varying likes/dislikes, varying opinions, and so on... And this is not some New Trend...

You get various forms of feedback, negative or positive, depending on what people feel they have to say about anything that is placed out into the public domain for consumption by the masses... A mature and true artist knows how to act like an adult and take criticism and/or praise with a grain of salt... It is the nature of the beast... If you do not want criticism along side the praise, in all it's varying forms, then don't bother putting it out there in the first place... Regardless if it's a toaster oven, a new car, a movie, an erotic/adult visual novel/game, etc... It's going to get feedback/opinions of all shapes and sizes... The lesson is that the people putting it out there need to learn to deal with it in an appropriate manner... Listen, ignore what you will, take out of it anything that might help you grow for the future, and move on...

When an actor see's a bad review with regards to a Play they performed in, or a movie studio gets poor ratings, do you see them making a public scene about it? 99.9 percent of the time that would be a No... Because they'll just end up making themselves look like they are not mature enough to handle public scrutiny... Regardless if it was a free Play/Movie or there was a charged admission...

As to the whole Patreon thingy... It is inherently designed to allow for folks to pay a subscription to an artist/author/developer/etc. for doing a good job, in the eyes of those giving that donation/payment... If a developer truly was doing it completely for free, they wouldn't even take donations... By placing their product into a situation that is purely designed to promote being donated to, and that is Patreon's sole purpose, that automatically creates a "I want to make money" situation, for what ever reasons, they are asking their fan base for money just by using the site at all...

And I fully understand that there are many reasons for why folks want to make that money... Some want it to be their career, but I always find that to be a bit two-sided... Someone who really wants that to be a career, would go commercial, start an actual legal company, and either sell their services professionally, or work for a company doing this sort of thing, or get out of the donation system and sell their products for a profit... But because the Donation system has the possibility of being so lucrative, because paying fans can be a bit fanatical or forget they subbed in the first place, they stay with donations rather then going pro... Which I always find a bit suspicious... It's not always a case of scamming/milking/etc, but it happens more often than fans think it does...

Some want to get some money to help improve their ability to create a better product, by being able to purchase better hardware and software... Or maybe even hire better artists, authors, and/or programmers... And their motivations can vary from developer to developer... Some may be true to their word, and some may be scamming/milking although they portray to the public that they are honest and hard working... And because they are not technically a legal company/organization that can be easily tracked and so forth... In essence, they are in that grey area of anonymity, where they can get away with anything, as long as they don't push it too far...

Fans are a mixed bag... Some are highly intelligent, and can tell when the situation isn't what they thought it was... Some are fanatical, almost cult like, in their protection of a product and/or developer... You see it all the time, in these forums, in other forums, etc... Some are open minded, willing to listen to various opinions and make up their own minds without pandering to the crowd of fanatical fans or critics, around them... Making up their own minds while still being open to varying inputs... And the list goes on...

As a player/reader who's been writing reviews on all sorts of stuff, for decades, I've seen all sorts of stuff occur... I've seen fans place a non-objective higher scored review, just because they wanted to see the average score get closer to what they believe it should be, in their opinion... I've seen a fan place a higher scored review, for a product that is not all that great, because the developer made a better product before... It wasn't an objective scoring, but instead was more a matter of the fan wanting to artificially promote the developer they like, even though the product scored is no where near as good... And there are lots of other examples... Artificial scoring happens a lot, but it can be hard to tell them from a real and objective review...

I always find it funny as well as troubling, when the fanatical fans become overly protective, in how they passionately respond to anything negatively said about a given product... As if only their opinion matters, and how dare someone else have a different opinion... And yet they promote free speech, no censorship, blah blah blah… Same also goes to highly sensitive and protective developers... How dare someone not like their product, or how dare they give their opinion without some sort of requirement that it has to be played down and more constructive... I personally give constructive criticism when I feel I need and want to, as there is no requirement that I do so... I have a tendency to speak my mind about both my reasons for why I felt a certain way, or what I did and didn't like... Those are my opinions, and I even say so in the beginning of every one of my reviews, just to ensure it's stated clearly...

The internet is full of varying personalities and passions... The anonymity of it, or the perceived anonymity of it, psychologically gives a false sense to some folks that they can say and do anything and get away with it... Not all people are like that, but the internet seems to bring out the worst natures in some folks... So you can have someone give their opinion in a thread, and some folks will look at it with an open mind and objectively discuss it... Others are protective and just blurt out the first emotional thought that pops into their minds... Others want to purposefully create drama, so they interject their non-sense, in hopes of creating high emotional states, where chaos occurs... Others read into something wrong, or don't fully comprehend what was actually said and/or implied, and again some chaos ensues... Either until they become enlightened that it was a misunderstanding, or until it escalates and staff has to interject, or until the whole thread is filled with off-subject arguments back and forth like school children in a yard... And sometimes emotions trump reason... Emotions get so high and jumbled up, that any form of methodical or logical reasoning by one or more involved, becomes impossible... I personally, find that once reasoning shows no signs of helping, it's best to just move on and ignore the conversation... If it really gets out of hand, I either report it and move on, or flag the person/people as Ignored and move on... I have no patience for fanatical and un-reasonable people, but that's just me...

As to the discussion a few folks had concerning products changing over time due to money... It is crystal clear, that once paying fans are pandered to, during the development of a product, it is way more about the money then anything else... There is a difference between showing your thanks, and pandering... Showing thanks would be like offering Bonus material to paying fans, that is above and beyond the public product... Or when a choice, that was not requested by fans, is presented between several pre-made/pre-existing options that have no real affect on the products development, outside of cosmetics... Such as offering a choice between 3 different models for a pre-determined character... Or hair colors, or character names, etc... Stuff that doesn't really affect the direction and pre-determined plans of the development... But when some or a majority of the content (outside of basic cosmetics) and/or direction, of a developing project, is placed into the hands of paying fans, then everyone knows, it is about the money, and not about anything else... True artists, doing something truly for free, would never compromise their art in order to please a minority of the fan base, because they paid you, unless greed or pandering ego was a factor...

That was a really long reply, and I may have slipped from the subject matter a couple of times, but I do empathize with the plight that some developers have to deal with... But again, it is going to happen, no matter the forum or website... If people want to make their product open to the public, free or not, expect both positive and negative feedback... And to those folks who may purposefully be trolling, it may be funny to you and a tiny select few of other people with no real empathy or humanity, but it isn't funny to most folks out there, and it doesn't help anything other then your own messed up ego...

Stepping down off my soap box...

Zip

 

[DarthSeduction]

I don't think so, most don't (and for some legitimately so, since they deserve whatever constitutes their pay/reward out of it). You'll have to double-check your sources, because we aren't browsing the same site.

All labor has value, I'd ask a refrain from looking at it in terms of who is and isn't deserving. However, remember the patreon method is donation based. As I said already, it is the hat the street performer collects from. That street performer is going out there and doing the performance regardless. People who think that the performer's work is worthy of their currency pay for it. This doesn't mean that the labor of the person who gets less money is less valuable or deserving, just that we operate in a system where you need a bit of a perfect storm to have a viable product.

And who exactly are you to tell people what they can and should do ? Pretending to be what you're not, some kind of forum judge waving his tiny e-dick about criticizing people who... uh, criticize other stuff ?

People provide feedback because they feel like it. They may like a game or a genre (and be passionate about it) or not. They may want to share valuable insight with other players, so that they too can know what they're getting into, or get opinions themselves. Some authors show up on these forums, so this feedback must not be all that bad if they actively participate to them, even in threads that do not pertain to their own games.

Finally, your "alternative means" will be another forum anyway, so why not here in the first place, or wherever people chose to do it without waiting for your genius input ?

You seem to have lampshaded yourself quite nicely with that first comment, but missed the point completely. The "alternative means" was direct contact with the developer. A post in the specific thread of a developer you would like to see improve something, a visit to their discord where many, if they have open discords, have suggestion and feedback channels, bug report channels, etc. The problem with creating a random thread in the general discussions/off-topic area is that you're simply virtue signalling.

You really seem to have no clue about communication processes, and you should probably go out and learn a thing or two about it before we continue. There are times where it's all about gathering ideas, suggestions, critics and even totally useless stuff, just so we can put a word or a concept on it, keep or discard it at the end of the day, and move onwards.

There is a way to do that which doesn't involve negatively ranting into the void. I've made several threads that are about constructive conversation regarding certain topics, in particular one I made about the prevalence of the retard in lechertown, what about it annoys people from a gameplay perspective, and what could be done to preserve the spirit of such titles while making them more rewarding for players. However, to do that, I had to be constructive, give examples, make an actual argument.

What this thread is about is people who aren't doing any of those things. They're reeeing into the void about how the games they want to play have problems. They don't provide specifics, they throw out bullshit statistics, they belittle anyone who comes in to disagree with them. These aren't discussions, they're flame wars.

Not all of what we hear, read or learn in our life will be pleasant, and it takes a mature adult to make something out of it that will eventually be useful to us, to adapt, to grow smarter and become a better person out of all the feedback we've received ourselves.

One could argue that a mature adult is capable of fostering a constructive and helpful conversation rather than starting off a thread to flaunt their superiority to the people doing all the work. Because that's what is happening in each of those threads. What is being discussed here is the lack of maturity in the people ranting, not the the value in constructive conversation.

Most authors, especially inexperienced ones, crave for attention and such feedback. Smart authors manage perfectly fine to weed out the unnecessarily negative comments without other users white-knighting for them or their games. Experienced authors just ignore whatever crap people can come up with, since they will have learned since then and let the success of their games be the only fact that matters.

Yes, in their own game threads, on their own discords, and within their actual circles of influence. A random rant thread on F95 will only get seen by a small handful of devs like myself who troll the forum outside their own thread, and most of us, though I know it's not all of us, are also generally more than happy to engage with criticism. I even posted in one of the above mentioned threads with a solution to the issues, for which the ranting and raving thread creator decided to tell me I was being too long winded, in spite of turning a full scene change into a single paragraph.

This is nothing that you'll ever manage to change, no matter how hard you cry for people to shut up because something displeases you.

The first valid thing I think you've said in this entire rant. To be sure, it's unlikely to change the fact that people wantonly shout into the void. However, that doesn't make this complaint invalid, and it certainly doesn't invalidate the advice given.

the thing is, i can listen to the musician on the streets beforehand and decide later on if i wanna give him some money. on patreon you often face a paywall that prevents you from testing out stuff. ofc. not always, but often enough i would say. or to make it better understandable: i can easily find out a musician who plays the tune i wanna hear, cause he has to play anyway in order to attract people. on patreon you often have to trust the dev to provide ya with stuff he is promising and (more often than not) pay in order to find out if his promises are true.

See, being that we are on f95 I can't take a word of your paywall argument seriously. However, your argument is flawed. You aren't paying for the final product on Patreon. You're paying for the labor that goes into the product. If a dev has been making exactly the kind of product you'd like to see from them for a year and you've been a patron, but then they add something that makes you completely not want to support anymore, you cut off your support. It's that simple. You still paid for a years worth of labor who's fruits your enjoyed. That payment is still valid. Just because it takes a turn YOU didn't expect doesn't mean that the labor that got you there is changed or that the devs lied to you, just that your expectations were false.

This is the same with the street performer. You're not paying him to play wonderwall tomorrow, you're paying him because he was playing wonderwall today.

Personally, I think the more feedback the better. Using my mod as an example, if nobody comments then I don't know what people liked or didn't like. I don't know what mistakes I'm making. There have been things I've changed recently that I would have changed months ago if I had known it was a problem and now I have stuff baked in there that doesn't match or would take too much work for it to be worth it to go back and fix.

Sure, feedback is very important, but you'd agree that you'd like them to come to you directly with feedback that is specific and helpful, rather than ranting into the void offering no specifics nor solutions, yes?

You get various forms of feedback, negative or positive, depending on what people feel they have to say about anything that is placed out into the public domain for consumption by the masses... A mature and true artist knows how to act like an adult and take criticism and/or praise with a grain of salt... It is the nature of the beast... If you do not want criticism along side the praise, in all it's varying forms, then don't bother putting it out there in the first place... Regardless if it's a toaster oven, a new car, a movie, an erotic/adult visual novel/game, etc... It's going to get feedback/opinions of all shapes and sizes... The lesson is that the people putting it out there need to learn to deal with it in an appropriate manner... Listen, ignore what you will, take out of it anything that might help you grow for the future, and move on...

I don't know how many times I am going to have to say this, but how is ranting into the void feedback? We all know that devs like myself who actually troll other sections of this forum are both the exception to and usually immune from these threads. We're often the ones constructively creating threads that are actually helpful to aspiring devs and not just going around and hopping up on a soapbox. As to the rest of that... ew, is all I have to say. Your cynicism about patreon and your, quite fankly, naive attitude toward the prospects of starting or joining legitimate game design companies is, to put it simply, as farcical as santa claus.

 

[Daxter250]

See, being that we are on f95 I can't take a word of your paywall argument seriously. However, your argument is flawed. You aren't paying for the final product on Patreon. You're paying for the labor that goes into the product. If a dev has been making exactly the kind of product you'd like to see from them for a year and you've been a patron, but then they add something that makes you completely not want to support anymore, you cut off your support. It's that simple. You still paid for a years worth of labor who's fruits your enjoyed. That payment is still valid. Just because it takes a turn YOU didn't expect doesn't mean that the labor that got you there is changed or that the devs lied to you, just that your expectations were false.

This is the same with the street performer. You're not paying him to play wonderwall tomorrow, you're paying him because he was playing wonderwall today.

first of all, take f95 out of consideration. f95 is a pirate site, not an official platform to show off demos or freewares (it can be used as one, but in its core it's still a pirate site).

what most patreon games are, are simply games in alpha state (and therefore can even be considered as games steam often offers - by paying the price you help developers develop the game - some patreon games are actually on steam already). and as long as i can't play them freely before considering paying for it you can't compare it to street musicians who are making music for free and just hope for tips for their performance. i personally don't care if a payment is valid or not, 'cause that wasn't the focus of my previous comment. it all stands or falls whether or not i can play a game beforehand BEFORE i gotta pay for it. what options i have afterwards, once i payed, doesn't matter anymore.

 

[DarthSeduction]

first of all, take f95 out of consideration. f95 is a pirate site, not an official platform to show off demos or freewares (it can be used as one, but in its core it's still a pirate site).

what most patreon games are, are simply games in alpha state. and as long as i can't play them freely before considering paying for it you can't compare it to street musicians who are making music for free and just hope for tips for their performance. i personally don't care if a payment is valid or not, 'cause that wasn't the focus of my previous comment. it all stands or falls whether or not i can play a game beforehand BEFORE i gotta pay for it. what options i have afterwards, once i payed, doesn't matter anymore.

Take out the thing that allows my argument to be completely invalidated and it's completely valid again. Except that it's not, because most of the games I've come into contact with have a free release, it just comes out later than the others. Furthermore, most developers see piracy as free advertising. We don't have a better method of doing so, we are hidden from search results, and quite frankly, there aren't many communities for people looking to play games like this. The subreddits are small, and places like Newgrounds (which despite being older and more widely known has less traffic than f95) aren't really specialized to make room for us either.

So, no f95 is not only a part of it, it's an important cog in the machine for creating buzz and getting eyes on our work. That's why devs are helpful and active in their threads, at least until whiny bitches pile on to the point where they decide to tell f95 to go fuck itself and retreat to their discords or whatever.

Furthermore, again, YOU AREN'T PAYING FOR THE FINAL PRODUCT. You're paying for the labor. Which means that as long as we are performing that labor we are exactly the same as that street musician. The segment of the game we release is the exact same as a single song on an album. In fact, for my particular purposes, I treat each release as an episode or chapter, thus requiring it to have a 3 act structure and be, in itself, a complete product, not the complete story, but just as we'll never see the Dark Universe that Universal tried to launch, that doesn't invalidate the labor, time and energy that went into creating The Mummy. Or just as we'll never see all of Dollhouse/Firefly, doesn't mean that what we got wasn't valuable.

 

[Daxter250]

i don't know what the heck is wrong with your stubborness... but i will explain it again... in simple english. if you still don't understand it, i can't help ya anymore.

number 1: i don't care in the slightest what you guys talked about earlier. i only commented on your comparison between patreon and a street musician. i don't agree here.

number 2: why don't i agree with you? it's simple. on patreon you pay a developer. if you pay for it to help the developer or to get your hands on the game doesn't matter. but in order to play the game you have to pay beforehand. some developers do have demos or public versions. but not every developer provides it. hence the reason why i said "often" in previous posts. a street musicians plays music on the streets. he does it for free. you can give him tips afterwards, but you don't have to. conclusion: i can enjoy a street musicians music for free. i can then decide afterwards if i want to give him money. very often i can't enjoy games from patreon. i have to pay money in order to get access to a game. only afterwards i can decide if i want to support him longer or stop my support.
musician = enjoy first, pay afterwards
patreon (for the most part) = pay first, enjoy afterwards

number 3: f95 is out of the discussion. we two are talking about a comparison between a free musician and patreon. everything else is off-topic to me and doesn't concern me.

i hope i wrote it as simple and understanding as possible.