VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[manscout]

Okay, I hear where you're coming from. Obviously the actual criminals are guilty while others can share responsibility but not the blame, it's not even a discussion. I guess our difference lies in who we see as the criminal in this analogy. You think it's the person doing the corruption, but I see the person being corrupted as a future criminal on their villain arc (IF they end up doing bad / irresponsible things according to their own starting morality). And because the person is on their villain arc I just don't see much point in finding the person guilty for making them a criminal (aka "We live in a society"), criminals aren't always pressured or coerced to do the crime, they choose to act based on external influence and their internal justification but they can only blame themselves for making that choice to go through with the crime.

One last thing (it's too engaging ). If you think of a person doing the corrupting as a criminal it paints the person getting corrupted as an innocent victim which robs them of agency. They're a human being with their own agency and they're making a choice when they do bad or irresponsible things. Lena can't blame Seymour for making her cheat on Ian (the moral action here is either to break up with Ian or just be honest with him and explain her problem if he promises to keep it a secret) or blame Jeremy's dick for making her treat Louise like trash and gaslight her into becoming a cuckquean. Just like Jeremy can't blame Lena for making him a bad friend to Ian or poor boyfriend to Louise if he can't man up to reject her and do the right thing. Just like Ian can't blame Cindy for being sexy or Wade for being a bad boyfriend or Axel for making his moves on her if he ends up banging Cindy and betraying Wade. Well, they can but it just wouldn't be mature or convincing.

Hence we go back to why my definition of corruption (as an active conduct) cares about method and intent.

Method because manipulation, coercion, and any other forms of fraud or duress already rob a person of their agency, maybe not completely so and you can still imagine all situations to have a "correct moral solution" to them (specially with the power of hindsight), but at some point you will be just "demanding perfection" and blaming the victim, as well as adopting the callous doctrine that every failure is a choice. It can be hard to draw an exact line of where there is in fact mutual blame from the passive part of an interaction.

Intent because no one should be blamed for the influence they exert just by being. That would be an undue obstacle to their own right to self-realization (which is the whole problem with corruption in the first place). What I mean by this is, with the way Ivy dresses, conducts herself, and expresses her opinions, she is still capable of making an impression and it should be possible for that impression alone to influence another person into emulating her lifestyle, even if it meant a radical change to their own. I wouldn't call that "corruption", in the same way I don't consider Lena's interactions with Holly to be corruptive. The problem is that Ivy doesn't change Holly just by being an example, she doesn't really respect Holly as a peer and demeans her lifestyle, while embellishing and being completely acritical of her own. She's pushy and wants to change Holly regardless of what Holly's own thoughts and feelings are because she already dismissed them as being "naive".

I like that you brought the BBC storyline up because, obviously only up until the cuckqueen part of it, Jeremy really wasn't responsible for any kind of corruption even while carrying out behaviors that many would consider immoral. Jeremy did nothing to Lena, she spied on Jeremy and Louise and developed her obsessive fetish all on her own. He was lying to and manipulating Louise to try to sleep around, but until the cuckqueen part he wasn't really trying to change her in any way (it is possible that he pressured her into agreeing to things like filming her, but I don't think that's ever established so just as likely that Louise agreed to it because she was not opposed). After the cuckqueen plot though Jeremy is definitely Lena's partner in crime when it comes to corrupting Louise, they both know how attached and emotionally fragile she is and they take advantage of it to get her to "agree" to things that go against her established values.

Now about Lena corrupting Jeremy I would say that's a bit more of a grey area, I would agree that merely hitting on someone or trying to seduce them does not count as any kind of manipulation as long as you stop at the "no", or at any other expression that the engagement in sexual developments is uncomfortable to the person being seduced. On the other hand Ivy tells Lena how easy it is to manipulate Jeremy and orchestrates the events of that evening with the express purpose of getting Lena and Jeremy intimate and Lena chooses to take full advantage of that. I would say that in both cases Jeremy is still mostly responsible for his moral failings because very little was done to rob him of his agency, but Lena was only "corrupting" him in the scenario where he at least tries to say no (high Ian_Jeremy relationship and Ian has feelings for Lena) because Lena pushes through his attempts to hold to his values of not cucking his bro, even if they were rather feeble attempts.

 

[BloodyMares]

I like that you brought the BBC storyline up because, obviously only up until the cuckqueen part of it, Jeremy really wasn't responsible for any kind of corruption even while carrying out behaviors that many would consider immoral. Jeremy did nothing to Lena, she spied on Jeremy and Louise and developed her obsessive fetish all on her own. He was lying to and manipulating Louise to try to sleep around, but until the cuckqueen part he wasn't really trying to change her in any way (it is possible that he pressured her into agreeing to things like filming her, but I don't think that's ever established so just as likely that Louise agreed to it because she was not opposed). After the cuckqueen plot though Jeremy is definitely Lena's partner in crime when it comes to corrupting Louise, they both know how attached and emotionally fragile she is and they take advantage of it to get her to "agree" to things that go against her established values.

Now about Lena corrupting Jeremy I would say that's a bit more of a grey area, I would agree that merely hitting on someone or trying to seduce them does not count as any kind of manipulation as long as you stop at the "no", or at any other expression that the engagement in sexual developments is uncomfortable to the person being seduced. On the other hand Ivy tells Lena how easy it is to manipulate Jeremy and orchestrates the events of that evening with the express purpose of getting Lena and Jeremy intimate and Lena chooses to take full advantage of that. I would say that in both cases Jeremy is still mostly responsible for his moral failings because very little was done to rob him of his agency, but Lena was only "corrupting" him in the scenario where he at least tries to say no (high Ian_Jeremy relationship and Ian has feelings for Lena) because Lena pushes through his attempts to hold to his values of not cucking his bro, even if they were rather feeble attempts.

That touches on whether Jeremy is innocent victim or a criminal (the one being corrupted or doing corruption) and whether Lena is corrupting Jeremy or not by disrespecting his initial rejection and half-hearted reluctance. All valid and good reasoning. What about the corruption of Lena in this scenario? You said it yourself that the person can't be blamed for corrupting by simply existing, so Jeremy can't be at fault for Lena developing the BBC fetish. So, how would you classify this fetish development if not corruption? That fetish is directly tied to Lena being irresponsible and doing things she would blame Ivy for (like seducing Jeremy or being mean to Louise) or, like she blamed Ian for kissing Holly and compromising their friendship. On Jeremy's path not only is she willing to sleep around with Jeremy behind Louise's back, she also doesn't care that he's a friend of Ian and it might ruin their friendship as well if they ever were caught or Jeremy slipped when he was too relaxed, etc.

This is the clear sign of Lena's moral corruption with nobody else to blame it on but her own lust that made her either spy on Louise and Jeremy (a morally questionable thing to do) and then hacking Louise's phone (deliberate disregard of her privacy as the previous peek could be argued as accidental). There's no method that would fit your criteria (just curiosity and arousal), and there's no intent (at least the first time when Lena found herself spying on Louise and Jeremy). I guess it could be argued when she hacked Louise's phone or when she agreed to jack him off during Ivy's party that she had the intent to satisfy her curiosity even if she felt partially guilty about it. So, self-corruption then?

 

[ffive]

Why would they want a new model for the summer campaign in particular but be okay hiring a more prominent model for other campaigns?

I mean... why not? Not all campaigns are the same, so i feel it's perfectly reasonable for Wildcats to want a new face for one campaign, but someone more established for another. It'd depend on what sort of image respective clients they're working with want for their products.

Or Wildcats simply run the background checks on any models that want to work for them, and they just didn't like what they saw on Ivy's Peoplegram.

That's certainly a possibility, although in such case there might be some branching down the road depending on how far Lena takes her own online presence, i'd guess?

 

[BloodyMares]

That's certainly a possibility, although in such case there might be some branching down the road depending on how far Lena takes her own online presence, i'd guess?

Assuming Axel is a reliable narrator in this and doesn't come up with bullshit excuses, it would be consistent with all this "sophisticated" comment. If Lena gets hired and she's slutting-it-up online and they don't complain about public image, then it would at least be weird why Ivy was rejected.

My meta-guess is that Ivy won't be able to join Wildcats so instead she'll have to work with Billy, and I think it's a safe assumption that Billy's production would probably be more pornographic than erotic, or at least softcore, which Ivy would be happy to dive into and beg Lena to join her.

And whether Lena will be able to join Wildcats will probably depend on her connection to either Seymour or Axel. Seymour can easily open this door for her if she's a good girl, and Axel probably knows that this is his only card to keep meeting with Lena, and I doubt he'd freely give it up and recommend her to them without asking for anything in return, because as soon as she's with Wildcats, she has no reason to meet him outside of work. So I expect the repeat of the Robert situation where Lena's entry to Wildcats would probably depend on whether she resumed her intimate relationship with Axel or not. But who knows, maybe her work with Kent and other photographers outside of Seymour's reach could make her more noticeable and she'll be able to enter the "hard way". Only Eva really knows. But if entering Wildcats would require Lena selling her soul either to Seymour or Axel, and if Billy's agency indeed turn out to be porn, then ironically Stalkfap becomes the safest and least corrupt way for her to make money off modeling even if it's homemade porn.

 

[manscout]

That touches on whether Jeremy is innocent victim or a criminal (the one being corrupted or doing corruption) and whether Lena is corrupting Jeremy or not by disrespecting his initial rejection and half-hearted reluctance. All valid and good reasoning. What about the corruption of Lena in this scenario? You said it yourself that the person can't be blamed for corrupting by simply existing, so Jeremy can't be at fault for Lena developing the BBC fetish. So, how would you classify this fetish development if not corruption? That fetish is directly tied to Lena being irresponsible and doing things she would blame Ivy for (like seducing Jeremy or being mean to Louise) or, like she blamed Ian for kissing Holly and compromising their friendship. On Jeremy's path not only is she willing to sleep around with Jeremy behind Louise's back, she also doesn't care that he's a friend of Ian and it might ruin their friendship as well if they ever were caught or Jeremy slipped when he was too relaxed, etc.

This is the clear sign of Lena's moral corruption with nobody else to blame it on but her own lust that made her either spy on Louise and Jeremy (a morally questionable thing to do) and then hacking Louise's phone (deliberate disregard of her privacy as the previous peek could be argued as accidental). There's no method that would fit your criteria (just curiosity and arousal), and there's no intent (at least the first time when Lena found herself spying on Louise and Jeremy). I guess it could be argued when she hacked Louise's phone or when she agreed to jack him off during Ivy's party that she had the intent to satisfy her curiosity even if she felt partially guilty about it. So, self-corruption then?

I mean my personal opinion is that the way Lena's BBC addiction develops is a bit hamfisted on her character by the writing (I think the moral corruption she can undergo in the routes of Robert, Mike, and Axel all make more sense given her established values, personality, and experiences), but without appealing to that I'd agree with you calling it "self-corruption", or maybe even no corruption at all, not all immoral behavior needs to spawn from external and corruptive influences, I'm not Rousseau.

If you want to seek a deeper justification, I think the only way to rationalize it is that Lena already had a moral-shatering obsession with BBC buried deep into her psyche, either originated in a meta sense by the player imbuing it into her character when tailoring her with their choices (when first spying on Louise and Jeremy, the player chooses if Lena focuses on either Louise or Jeremy's cock), or originated from a diffuse cultural phenomenon. Neither scenario excuses Lena's character from being entirely responsible for her own corruption.

In the first case it is just a videogame thing, choices by the players are not always about creating different events that influence the pre-established character in different ways, sometimes they change the subject of the very character itself. The choice of having Lena focus her attention or not on Jeremy's cock feels like the later to me, it is not "Lena started developing a BBC fetish because she happened to stare at Jeremy's cock while peeping on him and Louise" but rather "Lena stared at Jeremy's cock while peeping on him and Louise because that's what she already wanted to see from the start, even if subconsciously".

The second case is a bit more tricky, allow me to build up to it.

Spoiler: bit long and digressive so spoilering it

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[Gicoo]

I forgot: Is Lena's potential fetish specifically big black cock or just big cock? In the latter case, her fetish for it can be explained by her past relationship with Axel.

 

[Reaurt]

I mean my personal opinion is that the way Lena's BBC addiction develops is a bit hamfisted on her character by the writing (I think the moral corruption she can undergo in the routes of Robert, Mike, and Axel all make more sense given her established values, personality, and experiences), but without appealing to that I'd agree with you calling it "self-corruption", or maybe even no corruption at all, not all immoral behavior needs to spawn from external and corruptive influences, I'm not Rousseau.

If you want to seek a deeper justification, I think the only way to rationalize it is that Lena already had a moral-shatering obsession with BBC buried deep into her psyche, either originated in a meta sense by the player imbuing it into her character when tailoring her with their choices (when first spying on Louise and Jeremy, the player chooses if Lena focuses on either Louise or Jeremy's cock), or originated from a diffuse cultural phenomenon. Neither scenario excuses Lena's character from being entirely responsible for her own corruption.

In the first case it is just a videogame thing, choices by the players are not always about creating different events that influence the pre-established character in different ways, sometimes they change the subject of the very character itself. The choice of having Lena focus her attention or not on Jeremy's cock feels like the later to me, it is not "Lena started developing a BBC fetish because she happened to stare at Jeremy's cock while peeping on him and Louise" but rather "Lena stared at Jeremy's cock while peeping on him and Louise because that's what she already wanted to see from the start, even if subconsciously".

The second case is a bit more tricky, allow me to build up to it.

Spoiler: bit long and digressive so spoilering it

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Just as an aside, I like to headcanon that that version of Lena has more of a big dick fetish than a BBC fetish, which keeps the racial component out of it and is also more consistent with her character and past, as Lena has previously experienced a relatively outsized penis (i.e., Axel).

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

I mean my personal opinion is that the way Lena's BBC addiction develops is a bit hamfisted on her character by the writing (I think the moral corruption she can undergo in the routes of Robert, Mike, and Axel all make more sense given her established values, personality, and experiences), but without appealing to that I'd agree with you calling it "self-corruption", or maybe even no corruption at all, not all immoral behavior needs to spawn from external and corruptive influences, I'm not Rousseau.

If you want to seek a deeper justification, I think the only way to rationalize it is that Lena already had a moral-shatering obsession with BBC buried deep into her psyche, either originated in a meta sense by the player imbuing it into her character when tailoring her with their choices (when first spying on Louise and Jeremy, the player chooses if Lena focuses on either Louise or Jeremy's cock), or originated from a diffuse cultural phenomenon. Neither scenario excuses Lena's character from being entirely responsible for her own corruption.

In the first case it is just a videogame thing, choices by the players are not always about creating different events that influence the pre-established character in different ways, sometimes they change the subject of the very character itself. The choice of having Lena focus her attention or not on Jeremy's cock feels like the later to me, it is not "Lena started developing a BBC fetish because she happened to stare at Jeremy's cock while peeping on him and Louise" but rather "Lena stared at Jeremy's cock while peeping on him and Louise because that's what she already wanted to see from the start, even if subconsciously".

The second case is a bit more tricky, allow me to build up to it.

Spoiler: bit long and digressive so spoilering it

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A message Steven Pinker just sent me: "After a good stroke or two to ORS (I prefer baby oil), I too began to ponder the societal devices that led to Lena's near Pavlovian salivations at the mere thought of a large black cock. After reading manscout's insightful comments here, I would agree that [Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum] .
But regardless, I had quite a good fap. "

-S. Pinker. Harvard University.

 

[manscout]

I forgot: Is Lena's potential fetish specifically big black cock or just big cock? In the latter case, her fetish for it can be explained by her past relationship with Axel.

Just as an aside, I like to headcanon that that version of Lena has more of a big dick fetish than a BBC fetish, which keeps the racial component out of it and is also more consistent with her character and past, as Lena has previously experienced a relatively outsized penis before (i.e., Axel).

Lena has a general fetish for bigger cocks with few explicit mentions to race (at least so far), but the writing in Jeremy's scenes is entirely centered on just his cock. The stuff with Axel on the other hand does mention how impressed she is with his size, but it is not the singular focus of her desire.

This can be partially explained by the fact Jeremy has a bigger dick than Axel, or also the fact that Axel has other traits about him that Lena admires while with Jeremy it is pretty much just his cock. But, at least in my personal opinion, the difference between Lena's level of "penis worship" with Jeremy and her level of "penis worship" in general is just too high for it to feel like a completely natural extension of her character, rather than a more focused attempt by the writing at implementing the BBC fetish into the story.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

Lena has a general fetish for bigger cocks with few explicit mentions to race (at least so far), but the writing in Jeremy's scenes is entirely centered on just his cock. The stuff with Axel on the other hand does mention how impressed she is with his size, but it is not the singular focus of her desire.

This can be partially explained by the fact Jeremy has a bigger dick than Axel, or also the fact that Axel has other traits about him that Lena admires while with Jeremy it is pretty much just his cock. But, at least in my personal opinion, the difference between Lena's level of "penis worship" with Jeremy and her level of "penis worship" in general is just too high for it to feel like a completely natural extension of her character, rather than a more focused attempt by the writing at implementing the BBC fetish into the story.

I forgot: Is Lena's potential fetish specifically big black cock or just big cock? In the latter case, her fetish for it can be explained by her past relationship with Axel.

Before the revamp, there was quite a girthier stretch of content with Lena referring specifically to Big Black Cock and plenty of graphics and tags in the current code that still reference it, though the naming is more vestigial now.

It was clearly intended originally to be one of Lena's biggest fetish options like Ash had in GGGB, before Eva cold-showered it and watered it down more to big cocks in general, with a slight rightward hook towards interracial content. Probably due to one of three things, all moot points in your discussion: Official reason: "Making it less like GGGB". Potential monetary reason: Fear that such a thick focus might turn away more fans than it gains, especially with a Steam release. My personal suspicion: Eva doesn't want to be known as "oh... that female dev that makes all those big black cock games?"

 

[Pinsel]

lol, so many text about wildcat and things, i am missing all of this. I just go for Ian and Cindy, no matter what. The rest who cares

 

[fatpussy123]

In my Lena / Jeremy playthrough, Lena Ivy and Holly hangout after the shopping scene. Lena says she has a thing for BBC l, Ivy asks does the race matter. Lena says "it doesn't but you know...". This might be different if she also fantasizes about Axel at this point.

 

[Reaurt]

girthier stretch of content

I hope this pun was intended.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

I hope this pun was intended.

Why, of course, good lad. You should expect nothing less.

 

[ffive]

I forgot: Is Lena's potential fetish specifically big black cock or just big cock? In the latter case, her fetish for it can be explained by her past relationship with Axel.

There's two separate fetish variables for Lena: one is specifically for BBC and one for big cocks in general. Reminiscing and/or having sex with Axel can increase the latter.

 

[Death_dark]

Cindy and Lena; that is a pairing, I would love to see. Cindy dislikes Lena, and her dominating Lena or the other way around, heck yeah. That would be the most sublime thing ever.

 

[JohnnyKiss]

Before the revamp, there was quite a girthier stretch of content with Lena referring specifically to Big Black Cock and plenty of graphics and tags in the current code that still reference it, though the naming is more vestigial now.

It was clearly intended originally to be one of Lena's biggest fetish options like Ash had in GGGB, before Eva cold-showered it and watered it down more to big cocks in general, with a slight rightward hook towards interracial content. Probably due to one of three things, all moot points in your discussion: Official reason: "Making it less like GGGB". Potential monetary reason: Fear that such a thick focus might turn away more fans than it gains, especially with a Steam release. My personal suspicion: Eva doesn't want to be known as "oh... that female dev that makes all those big black cock games?"

You are right. All those points do seem kind of moo (no, I did not mispell it). The most valid one in my opinion is the second one. It's all about money in the end and Eva probably wants to avoid any potential backlash that race-play might bring (despite Blacked being a thing, I guess)

 

[Bl3kB0i]

is v10.3 final or is there a possibility of more updates like bugfix etc
been thinking of playing it for so long after it gets finished
GGGB was very good

 

[fatpussy123]

is v10.3 final or is there a possibility of more updates like bugfix etc
been thinking of playing it for so long after it gets finished
GGGB was very good

There will be another chapter added soon and presumably more after that. In terms of bugfixes/updates to this chapter, there was 10.4 release that hasn't been uploaded here. Presumably it only makes minor changes and bug fixes.

 

[Gicoo]

Chapter 1-9 took one and a half year (early 2020 to late 2021, granted, it was likely already worked on sooner before any release). The story was proceeding rather smoothly, most characters got their highpoints. Chapter 9 in particular was a huge turning point in terms of development and branching out. Ian and Lena defined their relationship preparing for the different outcomes (romantic, cucking, swinging etc.), Ian half commited to Holly and Alison and finally faced Cindy. Likewise, Lena could fall for the main antagonists Axel and Seymour, the latter threatening and promising big changes in her live. An ideal way to end the half-way point on a tantalizing note.

Combined with the rewrite, chapter 10 took over one year (late 2021 to late 2022). While the art is top notch and nothing to complain about, the story proceeding from chapter 9 was almost nonexistent. While Ian and Lena developed closer bonds with the characters their met through chapter 1-9, they didn't progress with any of their love/fuck interestes with the sole exception of Stan.

- Ian got a new job, though nothing changes in regards to salary. I doubt Natalie and Clark get extensive content, because fuck if we can't already focus on the first 20 characters.
- Seymours threat doesn't unravel in any way. Lena has a similar model scene (good art, but no character progress, no seduction or training), Ian doesn't lose his job, Lena's bakery isn't ending because of Seymour, her stalkfap goes on. The big choice at the end of chapter 9 was a sham.
- Ian and Cindy stall and have more or less the same situation as in chapter 9. They ask if they want to go in a relationship, they risk being find out by Perry and Cindy promises to tell Wade. She did this in chapter 9, did it this time and in the chapter 11 prologue, she still hasn't done anything. That's no development and just stalling, no matter how amazing the Cindy art is.
- Alison and Ian had the chance to deepen and commit to a relationship over 5 dates, but even the dinner and threesome is still some casual sex and no even thrilling, since Jeremy is too much of a bro to truly steal her away. Pregnancy plot twist is already set up twice before. I'm tired of Alison bitching about her job and break-up every time we met her and her and Ian not going further.
- Emma gets a neat bathroom scene, but seems still to be a mere fuck buddy with zero indicators of her wanting a relationship. Her Seymour beef is a sidething ongoing, it has nothing to do with Ians main plot of finding success, purpose and a girl.
- Cherry was build up decently over the nine chapter, chapter 10 did her dirty. She automatically falls back to Axel, even if Ian and Perry comforted her in chapter 9 and are even lined up for a relationship with her. That drama is completely ignored and chapter 11 has to adress this thoroughly, currently her entire character has relapsed.
- Jessica is already a bizarre character to suggest for Ian, her softening up to him was little different than their first metting and builds down to a circular "I talked to you because you caught my interest and you caught my interest, so I talked to you".
- The birthday was a rushed remake of the GGGB one, it was a restricted from Lena's point of view an no matter which partner she choses, its always interrupted by Axel (no matter what her relationship to him is) and we get either nothing or an Ivy comfort sex scene, which is pointless, considering how there is no indication that these two friends would develop a closer relationship.
- Stan Stalkfap scene was good, though I have doubts in the first place if he is good partner for Lena (maybe some Anti-Seymour who offers her money and one she has fully control over?). It's half ruined by his horrible confession.
- Neither Louise nor Jeremy progressed much despite the potential threesome.
- Holly stripping for Lena and fucking Ian isn't any new progress from what she already did to them in prior chapters. Blowing Mark is one step-up on her way to corruption, though it's a minor one that.
- Book is still not evaluated, Gym tournament isn't there yet, Lena's plays music automatically without our input, pool game has no reward (it was good to get on Cindys side twice).

In summary, chapter 10 was filler, stalling and worrying, considering how long it took, how little it acomplished and what it indicates for the further slowing progress.