VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[UmbralKnight]

I think this is pretty reaching.

For one, seducing Edwin is evidently something another Carnation thought as perfectly viable use of her time, and that's because Edwin isn't merely errand boy but a person who can influence the competition greatly -- as proven by your ability as the player to determine with your actions who actually wins the rounds.

And second, it's not like you can't weaponize your sexuality on more than one person. And when Veronica is spending time with Edwin (no matter if voluntarily or not) she is in no position to seduce patrons, but she is in perfect position to get Edwin to like her and help her. Why would she opt out of gaining advantage, no matter how small, unless it's simply something that she can't bring herself to do?

the MC can make subtle moves only IF such an opportunity arises , he is in no position to make drastic actions that would help anyone directly.
we already saw that with kathy in week 2 where she takes in charge and punishes veroncia.
MC has no standing of his own within the club , he is an extension of kathy a shadow if you will , he has no power of his own.
i bet even ian has somewhat bigger leverage within the club than the MC because of his relationship with Dr Chuck.
MC can't do anything that would go against the wishes of kathy DURING the games , he could at best try to help the girls subtly with the very little power he has been given by kathy.

 

[ffive]

the MC can make subtle moves only IF such an opportunity arises , he is in no position to make drastic actions that would help anyone directly.

You quite literally determine outcome of the rounds by how you choose to conduct the interviews, and how you choose to behave during the exhibitions. The patrons and judges vote on what they find appealing, and it's the MC who ultimately makes things appealing for them (or not)

It doesn't matter if you classify those actions as subtle or overt, the outcomes are your doing. As such, claiming that Edwin is just errand boy of no importance and thus not worth seducing, it's simply false. You can make Carnation of choice win or can make her lose.

 

[labmouseblues]

Considering it's not only not a factor against, but even incentive for other two Carnations to seek sex with Edwin (especially Rose) why do you think it'd have opposite effect on Veronica?

Because they're different people, driven by different motivations and with different personal boundaries? Veronica is clearly willing to get fucked for a chance at saving her dream, but she isn't willing to get fucked for a chance at a maybe a possible advantage, because her dream is worth a lot, but not everything. Rose on the other will do anything for her child, and that includes eking out any extra edge she can get out of fucking the protagonist. Fel just likes to get fucked, preferably in the ass. Different folks, different strokes.

Do you believe her to be someone who wouldn't try to use sex as influence with someone they found physically appealing, to curry favors and/or advantage in the competition?

That's precisely how she's presented.

It doesn't matter if you classify those actions as subtle or overt, the outcomes are your doing.

The player's doing. It's a game, you're supposed to have agency. That doesn't necessarily mean the protagonist is actually responsible for the outcome of the competition, that's not how the narrative is constructed.

 

[GokutheG]

Nothing about V's preferences is "closeted". She straight up says she's OK with feminine guys sometimes. While I may have preferred her to be a lesbian that had very little chance of happening in a guy mc game. So while her fiance was a woman and her preferences heavily leans towards women she is still bi.

 

[UmbralKnight]

You quite literally determine outcome of the rounds by how you choose to conduct the interviews, and how you choose to behave during the exhibitions. The patrons and judges vote and what they find appealing, and it's the MC who ultimately makes things appealing (or not)

It doesn't matter if you classify those actions as subtle or overt, the outcomes are your doing. As such, claiming that Edwin is just errand boy of no importance and thus not worth seducing, it's simply false. You can make Carnation of choice win or can make her lose.

you THINK you can make the girl of your choice win, there is no definite proof that you accomplished anything that kathy didn't want you to.
don't forget why kathy hired the MC in the first place , she wants you to be her helper/errand boy who makes sure that all the girls are still in the race fighting each other until the last day.
she even says that she knows that some of them might try to seduce you or ask you to help them win.
so yeah she DEFINITELY knows and she even suggests to use it to your advantage to keep them in the game for much longer.

if kathy says during the next event she knows you went behind her back and punishes say someone like rose who made a private deal with the MC , you can't help her in any manner other than watch her suffer even more.

 

[UmbralKnight]

Well none of the other characters say "I never want to see you again" to him, so her turning to him at her lowest moment does say a lot about how she finds him physically appealing at least.

yeah she goes from someone who detests the MC being in the same room as her to someone who appreciates all the hard work the MC is putting to achieve his goals (just like her) and wants to really get to know the MC (as seen in the dance scene) all in a span of few weeks so yeah there is definitely some appeal that goes beyond the mere physical appearance.

 

[ffive]

Because they're different people, driven by different motivations and with different personal boundaries? Veronica is clearly willing to get fucked for a chance at saving her dream, but she isn't willing to get fucked for a chance at a maybe a possible advantage, because her dream is worth a lot, but not everything. (...) Fel just likes to get fucked, preferably in the ass. Different folks, different strokes.

There's one aspect missing in this summary -- Veronica, quite like Felicia, likes to fuck people she is attracted to. From her own words we know she's been doing it frequently, and we can see it from how readily she'll jump any girl you bring in her vicinity.

So, an argument was made here that "oh Veronica likes Edwin enough, she just doesn't fuck him because he is part of the club" . And that's basically a nonsense, because if Veronica was indeed attracted to Edwin to the point of wanting to fuck him, him being part of the club shouldn't be an obstacle in this -- as fucking a member of the club would only bring her extra advantage, on top of all the fun from having sex with someone attractive to her.

So really, the argument that "Veronica won't fuck someone from the club for just an advantage in competition" in a round-about way acknowledges that said advantage would be the only thing Veronica would get out this deal (and that's not enough to make her want to do it). In other words, that the attraction and fun from having sex with someone she finds attractive... simply isn't there.

you THINK you can make the girl of your choice win, there is no definite proof that you accomplished anything that kathy didn't want you to.

I guess we will know soon enough, considering with the next exhibition you can potentially get a girl of choice her 3rd win, which should be enough to declare her an (early) winner.

But even if Kat somehow stretches the competition for another round, it doesn't change the fact that she'd find it quite difficult to explain why a girl who won exhibitions 3-4 times shouldn't be declared the winner of the competition, when that's what she herself declared would determine the winner. Especially when the player can do this without any in-game deal, but just handing the wins to a Carnation who isn't Rose (or to Rose, but after officially turning her down and with no deal in place)

"Edwin has rigged the competition by fucking this girl vigorously but being lenient towards another one!" would be pretty ridiculous claim to make from the stage. Even though, in reality and under the hood of the game, this is exactly how it works.

 

[bonerland]

There's one aspect missing in this summary -- Veronica, quite like Felicia, likes to fuck people she is attracted to. From her own words we know she's been doing it frequently, and we can see it from how readily she'll jump any girl you bring in her vicinity.

So, an argument was made here that "oh Veronica likes Edwin enough, she just doesn't fuck him because he is part of the club" . And that's basically a nonsense, because if Veronica was indeed attracted to Edwin to the point of wanting to fuck him, him being part of the club shouldn't be an obstacle in this -- as fucking a member of the club would only bring her extra advantage, on top of all the fun from having sex with someone attractive to her.

So really, the argument that "Veronica won't fuck someone from the club for just an advantage in competition" in a round-about way acknowledges that said advantage would be the only thing Veronica would get out this deal (and that's not enough to make her want to do it). In other words, that the attraction and fun from having sex with someone she finds attractive... simply isn't there.

You can find someone to be attractive physically and still think of them as repugnant for their actions (or presumed actions in this case). She's that way at first with the MC, but one that makes an effort to actually be nice to her and hangs out with her does get her to warm up to him. You're also forgetting that Veronica is honest to a fault really, she doesn't have any issue with saying exactly what's on her mind at all times. She never has the disdain for him that she does for say, some of the patrons.

 

[ffive]

You can find someone to be attractive physically and still think of them as repugnant for their actions (or presumed actions in this case). She's that way at first with the MC, but one that makes an effort to actually be nice to her and hangs out with her does get her to warm up to him. You're also forgetting that Veronica is honest to a fault really, she doesn't have any issue with saying exactly what's on her mind at all times. She never has the disdain for him that she does for say, some of the patrons.

I guess we will see if now with Veronica, allegedly finding MC totally attractive, and having potentially warmed up to him and no longer considering his actions repugnant, if she shows as much energy in jumping his bones as she does with any random girl that catches her eye.

 

[labmouseblues]

So, an argument was made here that "oh Veronica likes Edwin enough, she just doesn't fuck him because he is part of the club" . And that's basically a nonsense, because if Veronica was indeed attracted to Edwin to the point of wanting to fuck him, him being part of the club shouldn't be an obstacle in this

But that's precisely what the obstacle was. As long as the protagonist was only a part of the competition, having sex with him would be selling out beyond what Veronica was willing to trade for her aspirations. The moment he became "kinda handsome, also wicked smaht", she was perfectly fine getting bent in half, because that was about her, and the protagonist, and their evolving personal relationship, not about the competition.

 

[UmbralKnight]

There's one aspect missing in this summary -- Veronica, quite like Felicia, likes to fuck people she is attracted to. From her own words we know she's been doing it frequently, and we can see it from how readily she'll jump any girl you bring in her vicinity.

So, an argument was made here that "oh Veronica likes Edwin enough, she just doesn't fuck him because he is part of the club" . And that's basically a nonsense, because if Veronica was indeed attracted to Edwin to the point of wanting to fuck him, him being part of the club shouldn't be an obstacle in this -- as fucking a member of the club would only bring her extra advantage, on top of all the fun from having sex with someone attractive to her.

So really, the argument that "Veronica won't fuck someone from the club for just an advantage in competition" in a round-about way acknowledges that said advantage would be the only thing Veronica would get out this deal (and that's not enough to make her want to do it). In other words, that the attraction and fun from having sex with someone she finds attractive... simply isn't there.


I guess we will know soon enough, considering with the next exhibition you can potentially get a girl of choice her 3rd win, which should be enough to declare her an (early) winner.

But even if Kat somehow stretches the competition for another round, it doesn't change the fact that she'd find it quite difficult to explain why a girl who won exhibitions 3-4 times shouldn't be declared the winner of the competition, when that's what she herself declared would determine the winner. Especially when the player can do this without any in-game deal, but just handing the wins to a Carnation who isn't Rose (or to Rose, but after officially turning her down and with no deal in place)

"Edwin has rigged the competition by fucking this girl vigorously but being lenient towards another one!" would be pretty ridiculous claim to make from the stage. Even though, in reality and under the hood of the game, this is exactly how it works.

True ,Veronica admits that she has been picking up more women from the bar because of all the stress she is currently going through.
don't forget that her entire life is pretty much crumbling right now with her ex wife getting remarried and all , she even initially chews off the MC when you phone her and she is having a bad call with her ex.
later if you are on her good side she asks for your help to fulfill her "sexual needs" and even says it's just a one off deal initially at that point in game.

the main reason she is attracted to the MC is because he is nice,trustworthy and friendly to her.
its a classic "finding sanctuary in any port during the storm" situation.
she fucks the MC because wants to and deep down she ACTUALLY likes the MC despite all the differences and initially hostility.
meanwhile as we saw in week 1 where veronica hate fucks kathy on stage to win the event.
there is very clear difference between the two, if she really wanted to fuck anyone who was attractive to get out of that situation she could have literally picked anyone in the room including any of the working girls or HANA (yeah , don't forget she was there too) yet she chose the hard option which was picking kathy which led to veronica painting a huge target on her back by needlessly antagonizing kathy.

you can't simply dismiss that she has no feelings for the MC just because she might not find him as conventionally attractive as some girls.

 

[UmbralKnight]

There's one aspect missing in this summary -- Veronica, quite like Felicia, likes to fuck people she is attracted to. From her own words we know she's been doing it frequently, and we can see it from how readily she'll jump any girl you bring in her vicinity.

So, an argument was made here that "oh Veronica likes Edwin enough, she just doesn't fuck him because he is part of the club" . And that's basically a nonsense, because if Veronica was indeed attracted to Edwin to the point of wanting to fuck him, him being part of the club shouldn't be an obstacle in this -- as fucking a member of the club would only bring her extra advantage, on top of all the fun from having sex with someone attractive to her.

So really, the argument that "Veronica won't fuck someone from the club for just an advantage in competition" in a round-about way acknowledges that said advantage would be the only thing Veronica would get out this deal (and that's not enough to make her want to do it). In other words, that the attraction and fun from having sex with someone she finds attractive... simply isn't there.


I guess we will know soon enough, considering with the next exhibition you can potentially get a girl of choice her 3rd win, which should be enough to declare her an (early) winner.

But even if Kat somehow stretches the competition for another round, it doesn't change the fact that she'd find it quite difficult to explain why a girl who won exhibitions 3-4 times shouldn't be declared the winner of the competition, when that's what she herself declared would determine the winner. Especially when the player can do this without any in-game deal, but just handing the wins to a Carnation who isn't Rose (or to Rose, but after officially turning her down and with no deal in place)

"Edwin has rigged the competition by fucking this girl vigorously but being lenient towards another one!" would be pretty ridiculous claim to make from the stage. Even though, in reality and under the hood of the game, this is exactly how it works.

kathy is unpredictable , who said anything about the MC being able to fuck any of the girls at all in the next event ?
the MC can't do anything if just like the previous year carnation games where the carnations in the final event were fucked by the patrons only.
how do you think the MC is going to help any of the girls from that ?
like i said he has no power other than what kathy gives him.

i have no clue how the next events are going to play out but no doubt there is going to be less windows of opportunities to help anyone than any of the previous weeks.

 

[ffive]

But that's precisely what the obstacle was. As long as the protagonist was only a part of the competition, having sex with him would be selling out beyond what Veronica was willing to trade for her aspirations.

But what people are arguing is that the protagonist was never only a part of the competition, but that he's also totally sexually attractive to Veronica.

"He totally is, she she just wouldn't fuck him initially because he's so morally repugnant to her." And where, precisely, this idea that Veronica wouldn't ever fuck someone morally repugnant but sexually attractive to her, comes from? Because so far it only seems like it's based on the fact that she wasn't very willing to fuck Edwin... but that's very much circular reasoning.

kathy is unpredictable , who said anything about the MC being able to fuck any of the girls at all in the next event ?

I was referring to what MC has already done in the previous rounds of the competition. It was to point out how difficult it'd be for Kat to claim the competition was influenced by Edwin, without her sounding like an idiot. Even if he could've, in fact, influenced the results of those rounds in that exact manner.

 

[ffive]

the main reason she is attracted to the MC is because he is nice,trustworthy and friendly to her.
its a classic "finding sanctuary in any port during the storm" situation.

That's uhh, completely not how sexual attraction works.

It's more like what "nice guys" think should earn them sex. Except, surprise, it doesn't.

 

[UmbralKnight]

That's uhh, completely not how sexual attraction works.

It's more like what "nice guys" think should earn them sex. Except, surprise, it doesn't.

that's LITERALLY what gets you laid with veronica.
don't forget the MC used to look like the stereotypical niceguy incel before the glowup few updates ago.
but looks can be deceiving as we can prove it to her.
veronica when she meets the MC for the first time she calls him a "boy" later she calls him a "creep" ,"human cockroach" and finally pervert all within the span of the first week.
now if we are going by your previous assertions why doesn't she try to seduce ian or kathy clearly if you pick rose/felicia for the photoshoot then veronica is teamed with either ian or kathy and they spend lot of time together alone.
if she hated the "niceguy" looking MC she would have definitely tried to seduce the others yet we don't see anything like that ever happening.
if looks was all she ever cared about why doesn't she try to seduce hana hoping that she could use her to win future events ?

no, being the "NICE GUY" is what gets you laid with veronica.
after the brutal week 2 competition , she is all alone and if you are her friend you can invite her to the MC home for a good nights rest.
she agrees and by your definition the "NICE GUY" MC does nothing remotely sexual , even cooks her nice breakfast the next day and they do nothing else than hanging out for a while.
that's how both of them slowly bond with each other , sexual attraction isn't just purely physical.
sure its a major factor for lots of people but there are plenty of other factors in play.
after all if all she cared about was physical attraction why would she try to spend time with the MC trying to get to know him outside the club ?
why would she want to see what his dance moves look like etc etc and before you say it's all alcohol yeah no in the last update she is clearly not drunk and she and the MC challenge each other who can successfully get into the pants of the barkeep first or at least get her number.
she clearly likes having fun with the MC even without any alcohol.
she even lets the NICEGUY MC kiss her goodbye in the open just outside her own gym in front of everyone .

 

[ffive]

that's LITERALLY what gets you laid with veronica.
don't forget the MC used to look like the stereotypical niceguy incel before the glowup few updates ago.
but looks can be deceiving as we can prove to her.
veronica when she meets the MC for the first time she calls him a "Boy" later she calls him a "creep" ,"human cockroach" and fianlly pervert all within the span of the first week.
now if we are going by your previous assertions why doesn't she try to seduce ian or kathy clearly if you pick rose/felicia for the photoshoot then veronica is teamed with either ian or kathy and they spend lot of time together alone.
if she hated the "niceguy" looking MC she would have definitely tried to seduce the other's yet we don't see anything like that ever happening.

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

Although, just to be a devil's advocate for a moment -- as you note, when Veronica does her video, Edwin is busy with another girl. So, even if Veronica actually seduced Ian, Edwin wouldn't see any of that and wouldn't know anything about it, unless Ian chose to brag about it afterwards.

if looks was all she ever cred about why doesn't she try to seduce hana hoping that she could use her to win future events ?

no, being the NICE GUY is what gets you laid with veronica.

I'm not sure if you've realized it, but this is interesting point, because Hana is far more than merely "a nice guy" -- she's even nicer than Edwin and she's a girl. One that looks quite like Mina who as we can see is very attractive to Veronica. In other words, Hana has all that you say got Edwin laid with her (a very nice personality) and none of his drawbacks (i.e. she isn't a guy, but a very pretty girl)

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

 

[Darreau91]

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

She has the hots for Mina… like all game. Why settle for generic goth daddy issue girl… when you get Mina. Open and closed.

 

[UmbralKnight]

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

you just answered your own previous question

Considering it's not only not a factor against, but even incentive for other two Carnations to seek sex with Edwin (especially Rose) why do you think it'd have opposite effect on Veronica? Do you believe her to be someone who wouldn't try to use sex as influence with someone they found physically appealing, to curry favors and/or advantage in the competition?

just for the record as i have said before i don't think she ever planned to seduce ANYONE hoping they might help her win against other girls.

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

Although, just to be a devil's advocate for a moment -- as you note, when Veronica does her video, Edwin is busy with another girl. So, even if Veronica actually seduced Ian, Edwin wouldn't see any of that and wouldn't know anything about it, unless Ian chose to brag about it afterwards.


I'm not sure if you've realized it, but this is interesting point, because Hana is far more than merely "a nice guy" -- she's even nicer than Edwin and she's a girl. One that looks quite like Mina who as we can see is very attractive to Veronica. In other words, Hana has all that you say got Edwin laid with her (a very nice personality) and none of his drawbacks (i.e. she isn't a guy, but a very pretty girl)

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

well there are 2 obvious answers
the most simple explanation is that the writer didn't want Hana to be the one who consoles Veronica after kathy brutalized her , this would obviously mean that it won't have the same impact as the MC being the only soul who helped her when was alone.

second explanation is that there is an obvious difference between being a Nice Guy and a NICEGUY.
Hana is a Nice Girl but the MC is a NICE GUY , remember both of them saw the same thing happen to Veronica and only one of them tried to help her.
trauma bonding is one hell a thing , sure Hana is a Nice Girl in the sense that she is pretty "decent human being" who tries to treat everyone same , has some level of kindness and helps people if she can but don't forget just like everyone else she did nothing but watch kathy brutalise Veroncia and even after the incident she didn't try to console her off stage when kathy wasn't there.
she just like most "normal" people there knew what happend to veronica was a horrible thing but didn't try to help fearing it could compromise her own position within the club.

meanwhile the MC is a NICEGUY
did he have ulterior motives in helping veroncia ?
maybe
was he part of the same system that led to this abuse ?
yes
but none of that mattered to her at that moment because she despertely needed some NICEGUY to tell her it was going to be all right.
light shining in darkness and all that , this is what i meant by any port in the storm previously.
do you think at that point Veronica cared about how "attractive" the MC looked ?
like i said looks alone isn't the ONLY factor for sexual attraction , in that moment she probably felt more safe in the arms of the dorky NICEGUY MC than anyone else.

 

[ename144]

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin.

I have no ide why you think this when Veronica has been very consistent that she's bi. Having a general preference for girls is just that, a general preference. If we learned that she has a thing for, say, redheads, would that mean she's never really been interested in Mina? Of course not.

Beyond that, I get the impression you're using the wrong metric for Veronica's interest in the MC as a long-term romantic partner. Sure, she's all over Mina in the gym if you introduce them, but I see nothing romantic in that; it would be a casual hookup at best. Even if Mina makes a move on our resident amazon in the latest update, it's still about sex and good feelings. Veronica isn't sharing her life's story with Mina, much less confessing to her fears that she really did ruin her marriage over a stupid gym.

But Veronica will do that with the MC if he makes the effort to connect with her. To me that says it all.

Could Veronica someday get equally close to Mina? Maybe, though I think it would be an uphill battle. But at best that would only indicate Mina could also have a potential relationship with Veronica. It wouldn't thereby invalidate the MC's potential any more than Veronica's previous marriage did.

 

[Beduin123]

Am I the only one here that doesn't care about Veronica at all?