VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[OsirianObsidian]

I just want to say, cutting corners is the last thing either GIL or I will do. We (in part) do this for our own satisfaction, desire to work together, and love for the process. My approach to making a visual novel has been about balance. You can always do better, you are always improving... so it's about finding the sweet spot between what's important to you, what you are satisfied presenting to the world, and getting things done at a reasonable pace. That has been our philosophy since the start, and it is why you'll never see us go back and "remaster" anything while there's still a long road ahead of us. Every update you get better; if you're a perfectionist, it would just simply never end.

With that in mind, animations tend to be a trade off. They take time to make, but they also make some of that time back from the huge swathes of text they eat up which would otherwise require static images, while adding immense production value to the project. If the script gets to a point where not doing an animation would be a glaring omission, that would not sit well with either of us. I just love GIL's animations. It's one of the things I derive great joy from, so I don't want less of them.

Instead, our discussion(s) center around my side of the things: the way scenes are paced, designed, and structured. In my pursuit to make a perfect game for me, I have a tendency to complicate scenes, which ends up running contrary to my own selfish goal when things begin to play out unevenly. selberdreher is astute when he mentioned exhibition 2; the free roam section served the purpose of continuing the club as a character, but things suffered in the back half. There was certain potential developments in the Felicia and Rosalind events that I would've like to portrayed, but ended up not doing so because of a combination of fatigue and our desire to actually see people playing our hard work. That's another impetus for the discussion: beyond finishing at a sustainable pace, releasing has become an enjoyable stage of the creative process for us.

I mean, it's not like very many people are complaining about the time our updates take; in fact, most people tell us to take our time, but it can't be discounted just how much seeing people playing, reacting, and enjoying your work is good for the soul. Having people discuss an update is like a renewal of spirit. It's invigorating, educational, and is overall good for the health of the project. I would veeeeeery much like to be a 3 updates a year kind of game. However, I also recognize that being rigid with frequent updates is not the solution, because cutting an update at an undue time just adds to more operational downtime over the long run with testing and PR'ing and other stuff.

So, I really do just think the answer is reining in my impulse to get fucking crazy at the first chance I get.

Take two of my favorite scenes for example: the Felicia sex scene in Elias' office and Mina's "all you can eat buffet." The Felicia scene has a ton of branching: vaginal or anal, and then positional choices after that. The Mina one is a lot more straight forward, you just choose the kind of tone you take with her and how you finish. I love both these scenes, but there is an argument to be made that a more unified, singular Felicia scene would've been more potent than any individual branch while also taking less work.

Anyone got any thoughts on that?

I'd say that you got it exactly spot on with both scenes.

Felicia's scene absolutely NEEDED to be branching because of the type of girl she is. She knows what she wants and likes to be in control of the situation. The opportunity to kiss her while fucking her ass and the look on her face where she's like 'that's not in the rules of the game we are playing' makes her a more compelling character and takes the scene out of just someone having fun into something deeper and more intense. You might say 'Well, the internal narrative and what the MC says to her could change that', but anal sex is far more submissive than vaginal sex and you could really feel the animalistic desire to destroy her soul in that scene. In short, the Felicia scene was about her internal state (even though we don't get to see it, her reactions to what is happening are what make it).

The Mina scene, on the other hand, was more about the internal state of the MC. Mina is just 'going along for the ride', so there isn't the need to create multiple branching paths because the story behind the sex is the fact that he's going to fuck his best friend's hot as fuck girlfriend. You don't need a more compelling narrative or branching stories for this. This internal state concept also works for Hana. Both of these girls aren't part of the competition so they are essentially blank canvases where it's not so much the sex that is hot but why they are having sex (I just wish you had made Hana calling the MC Daddy more like the scene with the girl rockstar and have her actually submit and call him Daddy instead of tricking her into it...but maybe this is just a precursor).

My suggestion would be to keep the Carnations as branching sex scenes (i.e. the sex is about their internal state, since they are only in this situation because they are Carnations) and everyone else (Hana, Mina, Kath, house girls) as linear (i.e. the sex is about the MCs internal state).

 

[BrockLanders]

Anyone got any thoughts on that?

Just this.

Don't second guess if you're pleasing us. I can't imagine either of those scenes being anything other than what they are. Rather, keep second guessing yourself in process. That seems to be making you churn out polished and turgid content that just flows. It may not feel like it when you are in the middle of it all, but you are. You are finding the statue in the marble. Keep it up. If it takes a while, it takes a while.

Like I was telling Gallant Trombe: create your art, we will interpret and adapt to it. Not the other way around. You and GIL do you two.

Spoiler: When will you make an end?

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Michelangelo and Pope Julius II regarding "Edwin's Ménage à Trois with Hana and Mina" painted in relief on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.​

 

[Biscardone]

To address your example more specifically, the choice of vaginal or anal with Felicia after the interview was potentially a bit indulgent, but ultimately I'd say it was fine. This choice isn't likely to demand specific follow-up later and it probably didn't take that long to add. I'd suggest, however, the option to not have sex with her at all is far more significant because it tangentially ties into what I see as a core gameplay aspect: namely, the nature of the MC and his relationship with Carnations. Now if that was deliberate, no worries; that's branching time well spent. But if that wasn't intentional, then much as it pains me to say it, that's the sort of choice you should consider very carefully in the future because it might suggest we should try to keep Edwin from fooling around on the job if we want him to be a better person when all is said and done.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that example in and of itself is a big problem. But it's the sort of option that, if it's repeated often in the early game, could cause an issue when you no longer have dev time to support at a crucial moment.

Yes! That's exactly what I meant by "watch out from the branches snowballing into an avalanche". There are choices that have an immediate impact, but no long term consequences, and others that may simply skip a scene, but they imply a significant decision for a character, and it would be a pity to hand-wave them later. So, dear TD and GIL: I'm confident in your writing and storytelling chops, and that you've planned most of the outcomes for major player choices... just get ready to chomp at the bit if the situation requires it, to avoid both internal incoherence for the characters and heavy headaches for you. (Plus, here's my usual

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to a cautionary tale about branching getting out of proportion).

 

[Zerorox]

Felicia vaginal/anal choise was godsend option, I'm not sayin' every scene must have same branching option, but at least not story-wise anal scenes (some punishment at carnation event or smth) might have at least slight different vaginal alternative.

As of scenes branching overall, I think of them as gems that make one more difference between kinetic novel and full-fledged game. Also it adds to replay ability value (yeah, I know most of us save/return but not anyone, some play in more "immerse way")

I understand it mostly doubles the work amount but still, players appreciate that.

 

[PhlebasThePhoenician]

It was Michelangelo Buonarroti who painted the ceiling of the Cappella Sistina.

 

[BrockLanders]

It was Michelangelo Buonarroti who painted the ceiling of the Cappella Sistina.

I knew it was way too late last night to be writing dick jokes

 

[Wooloomooloo]

I knew it was way too late last night to be writing dick jokes

...so what was in the post before you edited it, Leonardo, Donatello or Raphael...?

 

[Bill Temple]

...so what was in the post before you edited it, Leonardo, Donatello or Raphael...?

Master Splinter

 

[BrockLanders]

...so what was in the post before you edited it, Leonardo, Donatello or Raphael...?

 

[honkyfifteen]

I was just replaying the game today for fun and was not really paying much attention to choices, except for major ones (also subconsciously selecting every felicia choice, as she is the one!). With this casual play, i reached the end of the 2nd event night, with all three carnations tied. That was a surprise, as I had no idea if that can happen.
Now i cant wait for new update to see what situation arises due to that.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I was just replaying the game today for fun and was not really paying much attention to choices, except for major ones (also subconsciously selecting every felicia choice, as she is the one!). With this casual play, i reached the end of the 2nd event night, with all three carnations tied. That was a surprise, as I had no idea if that can happen.
Now i cant wait for new update to see what situation arises due to that.

Damn you got the hardest possible outcome, I had to save scum a lot to make a save like that. Want to see what Kathleen will have prepared for the trio.

 

[honkyfifteen]

Damn you got the hardest possible outcome, I had to save scum a lot to make a save like that. Want to see what Kathleen will have prepared for the trio.

Hehe yeah, got lucky i guess. Even i am excited to see the punishment now.

 

[ReservoirCreature]

Veronica is my favorite Carnation and I find myself inadvertently going easy on her during "business hours," which is probably going to make her lose in the long run. What a conundrum.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Veronica is my favorite Carnation and I find myself inadvertently going easy on her during "business hours," which is probably going to make her lose in the long run. What a conundrum.

No need to go easy on her. She can easily win the first week competition.
On my main save it is Veronica 1 win (first week), Rosalind 1 win (second week) and Felicia 0 win, and a tie on week 2 on my secondary save.

 

[ReservoirCreature]

No need to go easy on her. She can easily win the first week competition.

I'm sure she can take whatever punishment you throw at her, but at what cost? Will she hate me when it's all over?

Of the three, I think Veronica has the clearest way out of her situation that doesn't involve winning the pageant. It sounds like her gym would at least pay for itself if you can undo Samson's sabotage. I think I'm going all-in on that strategy. One of the other girls can have the prize money.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I'm sure she can take whatever punishment you throw at her, but at what cost? Will she hate me when it's all over?

Of the three, I think Veronica has the clearest way out of her situation that doesn't involve winning the pageant. It sounds like her gym would at least pay for itself if you can undo Samson's sabotage. I think I'm going all-in on that strategy. One of the other girls can have the prize money.

Just be truthfull with her in both Edwin's words and actions, no bs.
And also don't be afraid to lewd on her or let her take charge when the situation arrives, she enjoys it most of the time.

Doing that i had all the friendship points necessary to give the hug Veronica needed after that scene.

 

[honkyfifteen]

Just to truthfull with her in both Edwin's words and actions, no bs.
And also don't be afraid to lewd on her or let her take charge when the situation arrives, she enjoys it most of the time.

Doing that i had all the friendship points necessary to give the hug Veronica needed after that scene.

The hug scene really hits hard, very emotional. Even though I am not considering her path, that scene really felt good.

 

[Skrrt!]

Pretty sure it's already been brought up here but im too lazy to dig through 141 pages so i'll say it here:

Ian's gonna end up smashing Victoria huh? I just feel like their dialogue & the way scenes are playing out, i can see it leading to that.


To be fair.. We definitely will clap his mom's cheeks back.

 

[Idontplay]

Someone thinks so, other one thinks Ian has too much respect for Victoria to bang her.

 

[Alfred the Fallen]

The Mina scene, on the other hand, was more about the internal state of the MC. Mina is just 'going along for the ride', so there isn't the need to create multiple branching paths because the story behind the sex is the fact that he's going to fuck his best friend's hot as fuck girlfriend. You don't need a more compelling narrative or branching stories for this.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree here.

Mina isn't just a side chick you can fuck. She's an important character and a primary love interest. Her scenes deserve as much attention and care as the Carnations. There are a ton of choices in the game that allow us to shape our relationship with Mina, and they start before she's even introduced. So when we finally get a sex scene with Mina, it's not going be just because she's hot. And if the game treats it that way, it's going to feel wrong.

Which it did.

There's a brief moment in the middle of Mina's first sex scene where the main character has a bizarre monologue and imagines Mina strapped into some strange contraptions as if she were one of the Carnation's working girls. And it sticks out like a sore thumb if you are on the low toughness route where you have consistently voiced displeasure at what is going on at work. It completely pulled me out of that scene and really killed the mood. It wasted an otherwise great setup that had been building for a long while. If those thoughts were gated behind a high toughness score, then I wouldn't have seen them and the scene would've been perfect.

What makes it particularly odd, is that there is one brief moment in that scene gated behind a toughness score. Over 24 toughness and he'll think to himself "C'mon! Cum for me! One last time for me you dirty cunt!", while a lower score has him think "C'mon! Cum for me! One last time". A very small difference, but a very important one. It helps keep our character's actions consistent with what we have chosen in the past.

It's the small details that separate the good from the great. Little things like the difference between the MC being formal or informal with his boss, which is determined by a variable set by a choice you made early in the game. It helps make different playthroughs feel equally valid, and it shows that the developers care about each path equally.