VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[dolfe67]

Not liking PC is like me not liking Dark Souls. That game's not for me but I can see it's a great game.

 

[Turret]

Wrong. She is the shining light that guides clueless MC to real awakening.
She is the Master and MC is the apprentice.

Peace is a lie. There is only Passion.
Through Passion, I gain Strength.
Through Strength, I gain Power.
Through Power, I gain Victory.
Through Victory my chains are Broken.
The Force shall free me.

"What do we mean by the defeat of the enemy? Simply the destruction of his forces, whether by death, injury, or any other means—either completely or enough to make him stop fighting. . . . The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements. . . . Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration."

Kath (and it seems very much Chuck also) is the enemy of several persons in the game and she is also the enemy of Edwin, since she aims at pulling him down into the cesspit of her own sadism.

We have three "elder" girls who can be something of Edwin´s moral north star. Viktoria, his mom, who did everything she could to raise him properly. Something of the Angel version here. Then we have Kath, his boss and instigator of his possible sadism, she is obviously the Devil version of a guide here. And last, but not least, we have Sophia, our amoral nerdy scientist. She represents a middle path. Sophia does not get off on evil deeds and loathes what Kath represents openly, but she is also an "ends justifies the means" girl.

 

[dolfe67]

"What do we mean by the defeat of the enemy? Simply the destruction of his forces, whether by death, injury, or any other means—either completely or enough to make him stop fighting. . . . The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements. . . . Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration."

Kath (and it seems very much Chuck also) is the enemy of several persons in the game and she is also the enemy of Edwin, since she aims at pulling him down into the cesspit of her own sadism.

We have three "elder" girls who can be something of Edwin´s moral north star. Viktoria, his mom, who did everything she could to raise him properly. Something of the Angel version here. Then we have Kath, his boss and instigator of his possible sadism, she is obviously the Devil version of a guide here. And last, but not least, we have Sophia, our amoral nerdy scientist. She represents a middle path. Sophia does not get off on evil deeds and loathes what Kath represents openly, but she is also an "ends justifies the means" girl.

I was afraid for a second you wouldn't mention Sophia

 

[GokutheG]

For the record, the femdom tag is there cause of all the lezdom. If you tried it on that basis, then there's an even better reason to be put off because in no way you'll be satisfied content-wise, questionable example or no.

Am I the only one who wants more femdom from V after the gym shoot scene?

 

[dolfe67]

Am I the only one who wants more femdom from V after the gym shoot scene?

I want more femdom from Kat (with the MC)

 

[Ciaran8023]

You'd be completely right... If not for the fact that you defined TD Kathleen's scenes as "sub-par blackmail femdom bullshit". Sub-par is by definition a merit judgment on TD's narrative ability, and bullshit is halfway there. As such, don't be surprised people can react negatively to it - even if you say that you think the game has good writing.

Sure, but it doesn't change what it was. I'm not one to beat around the bush as arguably it was less femdom and more just outright sexual assault. If people like sexual assault, sure, but to say that it was an accurate representation of femdom would be facetious at best and malicious at worst.

It's not a matter of "I don't like what the author likes", that's perfectly fine. Personal tastes differ, and that's all there is to it. Just as an example, this thread periodically gets someone commenting that they couldn't stand this game as it contains a healthy dose of NTR, because they stretch the definition of NTR to absurd limits. But again, there has also been someone in this thread saying "I don't like muscle freaks, it's such a bad idea for the author to put them in the game". That's the difference between having an opinion on the game and having an opinion on TD. They're all opinions, but one usually irritates someone invested in the game more than the other.

Well, again, noting that scene as something that's a poor representation of femdom isn't exactly an opinion, it genuinely is a poor representation. If you're wanting to get into kinkplay and someone decides to blackmail you and touch you without your consent, that isn't femdom even though a lot of AVN's on here seem to think so (which is also it's own issue entirely). Hell, the only reason why I'm calling it femdom and not sexual assault is because so many people on here have such a skewed understanding of what femdom is.

EDIT: I also like to add that I'm someone who enjoys femdom as a tag, which is also why I react a bit more than most when I see a poor representation of it, especially in a popular game. Why? Because there are a ton of people playing this, and likely quite a lot of them will draw inspiration from it for their own projects, which might just perpetuate this extremely shitty and toxic "femdom must be forced and non-consensual" type shit that quite a few games have gone into over the last 3 - 4 years or so. That isn't a good thing. It's like if games all of the sudden started noting "big tits" as only being hyper-inflated bimbo balloons, sure it's "technically" big tits but I reckon quite a few people who are into big tits would have something against it.

Bro, if she upset you, you should have chosen to cum on her face like I did. This is what that choice was for: "you damn bitch, is this is what you asked for? here you have it!"

Yeah I didn't make it that far, I alt-F4'd half-way into it. Even though, I wouldn't exactly go "haha, you drugged and sexually assaulted me without my consent but I got you by cumming on you!" is somehow a comeuppance. I'd more say jailtime or something similar.

Anyway, I wouldn't call it "femdom". Kathleen likes humiliating people. And this is what the Carnation Club is

You're absolutely correct about that, however there was nothing to indicate that anyone working below her would be subjected to equally fucked up treatment at her whims. Nothing about the 'establishment' is legal, but there are usually rules regarding management/workers, and again nothing pointed towards that not existing in this specific scenario. The MC is kept purposely in the dark so you can't really expect the player to just go "ah fair enough, guess I'll just get sexually assaulted at any given moment, I deserve that for working here".

And I do know how the game works, I understand the dichotomy, it doesn't however change the fact that Kathleen can be considered an EXTREMELY polarizing figure given how she decided to treat the MC.

For the record, the femdom tag is there cause of all the lezdom. If you tried it on that basis, then there's an even better reason to be put off because in no way you'll be satisfied content-wise, questionable example or no.

To be truthful, I didn't even notice the femdom tag at a cursory glance, which is likely why it caught me offguard even more than I anticipated. I didn't really try it for any other reason than that I've heard it's a good game.

Oh boy, the moment I read the comment I knew what's going to unfold below. Don't bother guys, he's proficient at drawing questionable conclusions, fixating on them and successfully dragging people in different threads to 'debate' over them

I mean, calling that scene out for being an unfuriatingly poor example of "femdom" isn't exactly a questionable conclusion. Let's break down what happened;
MC got drugged by deus-ex-erection perfume.
MC got forced into pulling his dick out (notably against his will).
MC got forcefully jacked off, again against his will.

Genuine question, would you argue that this is a good example of femdom? Would you argue that my conclusion is in any way questionable about this? I truly want to know how my post is somehow offensive to you, because I really can't see the reason.

 

[ffive]

Sure, but it doesn't change what it was. I'm not one to beat around the bush as arguably it was less femdom and more just outright sexual assault. If people like sexual assault, sure, but to say that it was an accurate representation of femdom would be facetious at best and malicious at worst.

See, but the thing is that it was outright sexual assault with intention to humiliate. Not "femdom bullshit", be it sub-par or not. The game isn't trying to make it like it was "representation of femdom", that interpretation (and the kneejerk reaction to it) is yours alone.

 

[GokutheG]

Genuine question, would you argue that this is a good example of femdom? Would you argue that my conclusion is in any way questionable about this? I truly want to know how my post is somehow offensive to you, because I really can't see the reason.

Of course it isn't femdom as you said BDSM is all about mutual consent. This scene is to help show that Kat is an abusive sack of shit to anyone that she has power over. That is explored even more as the game goes on.

Now some good femdom content is with Veronica(best girl) at her gym. I'm still hoping for more from her.

 

[Ciaran8023]

Of course it isn't femdom as you said BDSM is all about mutual consent. This scene is to help show that Kat is an abusive sack of shit to anyone that she has power over. That is explored even more as the game goes on.

Now some good femdom content is with Veronica(best girl) at her gym. I'm still hoping for more from her.

That's what I was thinking, but apparently my post was nothing but a "questionable conclusion" so I was dying to hear his understanding of what happened.

And I figured that this behaviour wouldn't exactly be a one-time thing, so it's a good thing it happened early on so I could get out and not have to deal with Kathleen as a character. Would've been far worse if that scene was pulled out of the blue after like 10 hours of gameplay for example.

 

[ffive]

Also:

You're absolutely correct about that, however there was nothing to indicate that anyone working below her would be subjected to equally fucked up treatment at her whims.

I'm sorry, but in the very scene that got your hackles up Kat makes MC jerk off and ejaculate on face of one of the girls who were just introduced to the club. If this doesn't indicate that she also subjects others than MC who work under her to her whims and fucked up treatment... then what would?

Or is "get a facial out of a blue from a random dude" supposed to be a totally normal behavior and in no way humiliating and fucked up, and it's only MC's treatment that really matters?

 

[TERES]

That's what I was thinking, but apparently my post was nothing but a "questionable conclusion" so I was dying to hear his understanding of what happened.

And I figured that this behaviour wouldn't exactly be a one-time thing, so it's a good thing it happened early on so I could get out and not have to deal with Kathleen as a character. Would've been far worse if that scene was pulled out of the blue after like 10 hours of gameplay for example.

That scene with Keth is bonus reward is avoidable. When you choose one of three carnations for photo session you must not exceed 3 points with her. If you exceed you will have surprise reward from Kath

 

[Simpgor]

Or is "get a facial out of a blue from a random dude" supposed to be a totally normal behavior and in no way humiliating and fucked up, and it's only MC's treatment that really matters?

if they had kept reading they would have laughed at Ian confirming Kath did butt stuff with him while if Kath put a finger on MCs cheeks he would be posting about it here. I mean did they even make an attempt to defend what happened to the girls despite multiple people pointing it out? It only crossed the line when MC got involved (in a non domination way).

By that point you've already seen MCs mom get gangbanged and verbally degraded by the people there as well as confirmation that it did not just happen once, use rosilands love of her daughter and debt to a criminal organization to sexually take advantage of her before the competition even starts, seen 3 random women in a "free use competition (knowing that the club takes advantage of women), kathleen literally doing the same thing he is pissed about but no injection (kathleen forces MC to inhale her scent and cum on one of the girls faces), the stuffed with egg vibes directly into drugged wine directly into Vero being TIED UP AND FORCED TO EAT A BUNCH OF BORDERLINE INEDIBLE STUFF, Lucy being forced to fuck someone just for a chance to be a carnation, Vero literally manhandling kathleen until she cums against her will, and kath lightly dominating whichever girl (photoshoot) wasn't picked by MC/Ian

Like I knew he was being obtuse/clearly "wrong" in his opinion but when it's all spelled out like that it's hilarious. Literally everything is fine even when the same thing happens to a slightly lesser extent until a non consensual injection is involved

 

[GokutheG]

That's what I was thinking, but apparently my post was nothing but a "questionable conclusion" so I was dying to hear his understanding of what happened.

And I figured that this behaviour wouldn't exactly be a one-time thing, so it's a good thing it happened early on so I could get out and not have to deal with Kathleen as a character. Would've been far worse if that scene was pulled out of the blue after like 10 hours of gameplay for example.

That's sad but understandable. The dynamic between the two is actually very interesting. I'll just say that later on she tries to push a certain button and you can make it VERY clear not to do it again. Now I'll just say that later on her focus shifts to breaking the Carnations.

I'll just give you some insight into why I think their dynamic is so interesting. Kat starts to believe that the mc is as fucked up as her and her actions so far are to try and get him to fall. You can indulge her/your darker impulses, stand up to her or even get on her good side without going too far.

Can I suggest you try the game until the first full Carnation event? The writing is well done and it's possible you'll enjoy the game after this initial uncomfortable non femdom scene.

 

[ffive]

Ian confirming Kath did butt stuff with him

Wait, Kat has pegged Ian? Damn, i either made wrong choices in the dialogue and didn't get that, or somehow managed to forget it.

Daaamn, now i feel like Edwin is missing out

 

[ename144]

Also:

I'm sorry, but in the very scene that got your hackles up Kat makes MC jerk off and ejaculate on face of one of the girls who were just introduced to the club. If this doesn't indicate that she also subjects others than MC who work under her to her whims and fucked up treatment... then what would?

Or is "get a facial out of a blue from a random dude" supposed to be a totally normal behavior and in no way humiliating and fucked up, and it's only MC's treatment that really matters?

I think Ciaran8023's point was that there was no indication prior to taking the job that working for Kathleen would subject the MC to the same sort of sadism as the girls. Which is true in a literal sense. But IMHO, that's part of the point of the game: the MC's decision to work at the Club will have consequences, and not all of them will be under our direct control.

The game spends a great deal of effort establishing the morally dubious framework for the Club long before we work there - things like the MC ruminating on whether he's truly a good guy or merely lacked the opportunity to do bad, or the opportunity to exploit Rosalind simply because she agreed to it in a general sense. Kathleen drugging the MC is yet another aspect of that: the MC signed up for a dubious job, and it turns out not be what he thought it was. What does that say about the things the Carnations and the various house girls will be subjected to in the future?

To me, Kathleen's highly unethical railroading is a vital part of the story. It's supposed to be beyond the pale precisely to highlight the way a lot of the other things we will have control over are just as dubious. I've said before that working for the Club is a Faustian bargain, and Kathleen's treatment of the MC is an early reminder that someday there will be a bill. I do not blame anyone who wants no part of that sort of thing and abandons the game as a result; I consider this game top notch, but it IS very much an acquired taste.

I do not, however, think Kathleen's abuse of the MC is sub-par writing. Distasteful as it is, I think it's very much the opposite.

 

[GokutheG]

Wait, Kat has pegged Ian? Damn, i either made wrong choices in the dialogue and didn't get that, or somehow managed to forget it.

Daaamn, now i feel like Edwin is missing out

Why do I feel that during Ian was busy thinking of Edwin.

 

[Simpgor]

Wait, Kat has pegged Ian? Damn, i either made wrong choices in the dialogue and didn't get that, or somehow managed to forget it.

Daaamn, now i feel like Edwin is missing out

I don't recall how far he mentioned it going (off hand mention is all we get iirc) but I'm 99% certain Ian makes reference to Kath doing prostate related stuff?

I think Ciaran8023's point was that there was no indication prior to taking the job that working for Kathleen would subject the MC to the same sort of sadism as the girls. Which is true in a literal sense. But IMHO, that's part of the point of the game: the MC's decision to work at the Club will have consequences, and not all of them will be under our direct control.

Disagree because before the scene where he quit (forced injection) kathleen calls MC to her car JUST to say "hey I know your mommy did porn lol umad?" (Technically give him a usb which she in no way had to hand deliver) which is actual real literal blackmail.....

IMO that clearly shows that she is going to mentally fuck with MC, there is even direct evidence that kathleen is fine using the drug perfume despite Edwin being the only one in the car with her (stare at her tits or not)

Dude was way more respectful than most people who are objectively wrong but that doesn't change the fact that they ignored/skipped a half dozen examples of "femdom" before one snuck up on them

 

[Ciaran8023]

I think Ciaran8023's point was that there was no indication prior to taking the job that working for Kathleen would subject the MC to the same sort of sadism as the girls. Which is true in a literal sense. But IMHO, that's part of the point of the game: the MC's decision to work at the Club will have consequences, and not all of them will be under our direct control.

The game spends a great deal of effort establishing the morally dubious framework for the Club long before we work there - things like the MC ruminating on whether he's truly a good guy or merely lacked the opportunity to do bad, or the opportunity to exploit Rosalind simply because she agreed to it in a general sense. Kathleen drugging the MC is yet another aspect of that: the MC signed up for a dubious job, and it turns out not be what he thought it was. What does that say about the things the Carnations and the various house girls will be subjected to in the future?

To me, Kathleen's highly unethical railroading is a vital part of the story. It's supposed to be beyond the pale precisely to highlight the way a lot of the other things we will have control over are just as dubious. I've said before that working for the Club is a Faustian bargain, and Kathleen's treatment of the MC is an early reminder that someday there will be a bill. I do not blame anyone who wants no part of that sort of thing and abandons the game as a result; I consider this game top notch, but it IS very much an acquired taste.

I do not, however, think Kathleen's abuse of the MC is sub-par writing. Distasteful as it is, I think it's very much the opposite.

You pointed things out rather accurately so I don't really have anything to add.
I do however want to point out that, in case it was lost, it was sub-par from a femdom point of view as a lot of games and people on f95 seem to believe that this is just 'regular' femdom type content. I don't know the dev(s) so I had no indication of what their view of femdom was, which is why I used that terminology as.. well let's be real, dude got sexually assaulted, no real way around that.
It does the job exceedingly well in presenting her as an absolute irredeemable piece of shit however, so yes, in that sense it is well written. As I said, the game has good writing, I took offense to the character and the scene aswell as the potential issue of perpetuating a flawed view on femdom.

That's sad but understandable. The dynamic between the two is actually very interesting. I'll just say that later on she tries to push a certain button and you can make it VERY clear not to do it again. Now I'll just say that later on her focus shifts to breaking the Carnations.

I'll just give you some insight into why I think their dynamic is so interesting. Kat starts to believe that the mc is as fucked up as her and her actions so far are to try and get him to fall. You can indulge her/your darker impulses, stand up to her or even get on her good side without going too far.

Can I suggest you try the game until the first full Carnation event. The writing is well done and it's possible you'll enjoy the game after this initial uncomfortable non femdom scene.

I'll.. give it some thought. I'm generally very laid back when it comes to most things, I can basically play essentially anything that has tags that are usually quite disliked and I'll be fine with it if it's written well, it's just that certain characters and scenes instantly starts thumbing on the principles I have.

I might check it out more later, you do make a convincing argument.

 

[Biscardone]

Sure, but it doesn't change what it was. I'm not one to beat around the bush as arguably it was less femdom and more just outright sexual assault. If people like sexual assault, sure, but to say that it was an accurate representation of femdom would be facetious at best and malicious at worst.

Well, again, noting that scene as something that's a poor representation of femdom isn't exactly an opinion, it genuinely is a poor representation. If you're wanting to get into kinkplay and someone decides to blackmail you and touch you without your consent, that isn't femdom even though a lot of AVN's on here seem to think so (which is also it's own issue entirely). Hell, the only reason why I'm calling it femdom and not sexual assault is because so many people on here have such a skewed understanding of what femdom is.

EDIT: I also like to add that I'm someone who enjoys femdom as a tag, which is also why I react a bit more than most when I see a poor representation of it, especially in a popular game. Why? Because there are a ton of people playing this, and likely quite a lot of them will draw inspiration from it for their own projects, which might just perpetuate this extremely shitty and toxic "femdom must be forced and non-consensual" type shit that quite a few games have gone into over the last 3 - 4 years or so. That isn't a good thing. It's like if games all of the sudden started noting "big tits" as only being hyper-inflated bimbo balloons, sure it's "technically" big tits but I reckon quite a few people who are into big tits would have something against it.

Well, I think we've reached the core issue. You've stretched the definition of "femdom" to unreasonable limits to include any form of abuse, rape included. However, I can assure you nobody here agrees with that definition - first of all the author (TD) himself, as he told you in person - and the scene is not meant to be interpreted as femdom. You don't like the scene? You're not supposed to like the scene. So if you're repulsed by it and don't want to play the game because of it, that's fine. Just, stop judging it with an unfitting metric, or as an attempt to pollute the femdom pool.

Oh, and by the way:

It would take someone with terminal brain damage to not recognize poorly veiled blackmail and a shitty attempt at femdom.

The devs (and mods) deserve better than having to deal with your bullshit. They don't get paid enough to do that.

The devs also deserve not to be called out as writers of "poorly veiled blackmail and a shitty attempt at femdom", when it's clearly not their intent. Or terminally brain damaged, by extension (since they also can't recognize it, apparently).

 

[Ciaran8023]

Well, I think we've reached the core issue. You've stretched the definition of "femdom" to unreasonable limits to include any form of abuse, rape included. However, I can assure you nobody here agrees with that definition - first of all the author (TD) himself, as he told you in person - and the scene is not meant to be interpreted as femdom. You don't like the scene? You're not supposed to like the scene. So if you're repulsed by it and don't want to play the game because of it, that's fine. Just, stop judging it with an unfitting metric, or as an attempt to pollute the femdom pool.

I haven't stretched the definition of femdom, F95 has aswell as a handful of other devs. It's the same shit with the NTR tag, and no one on this green earth can know exactly what type of understanding the dev or devs have of it until you play what they've created. If you see a femdom tag it can be anything from forceful sexual advances, to blackmail, to covert scheming (i.e femdom character toys with another characters freedom and future to get them in line) and a host of other things, most of which do not belong in femdom. Same with NTR, that can be anything from netorare to netori to netorase, and it can take the form of anything from severe humiliation to covert cheating to overtly cheating and psychologically harming etc, again most of which don't really have a place within NTR specifically and technically belongs to other tags (or should atleast).

If a dev creates something that mimics a lot of other poor attempts and understanding of a certain kink, I will call that out. That's just how it is. If it wasn't the devs intent, they would say so, which they have so your post didn't really have a point at all. None of what I posted was problematic because as stated, I had no indication of intention with the scene at all, so your vehement and forceful defensiveness is just essentially going "ha I told you so" because you had information that I didn't.

Oh, and by the way:
The devs also deserve not to be called out as writers of "poorly veiled blackmail and a shitty attempt at femdom", when it's clearly not their intent.

People do deserve to be called out on stuff when there's no disclaimer of their intent. As said, you're posting with information that I do not have nor have had access to unless I fine-comb over 700 pages of responses when I made my post. That in itself is arguing from a fallacious standpoint.
No one is exempt from critique, especially not when it isn't remotely conveyed at first glance as to what the scene is supposed to portray, and no one is confused about what the scene actually was.