VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[lustforsex]

I mean, I would expect most players to play both options on different save paths.

As far as Victoria wanting to tell the MC, I'd say she's doing so of her own free will even if it isn't the choice she'd make in a vacuum. Grace forced her hand, but only in the sense that Vicky coming clean to the MC is her way of defying Grace; I very much doubt forcing this reckoning was Grace's goal. Victoria (likely) had a way to keep her secret but chose to prioritize something else instead.

Given how much this game plays around in the grey margins of consent, I'd tend to consider this a voluntary act on Victoria's part.

This goes without saying. But the 2 major choices (confess to Ian and delete the videos) that TD gives us at the very end of the update give the player the opportunity to think about their choices in their main playthrough and not be guided by "I'll first see what these choices lead to, and then choose the "good" option".

This illustrates that the MC's instinct to delete the tapes once the truth was revealed was the right one.

For Edwin, the truth hasn't yet been revealed. Victoria's attempt to confess to her past, which he has known for many years, can hardly be called the truth. If you go by instinct, as you mentioned earlier, then the "good" choice for him would be to lie to Ian. Edwin himself feels this:

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After this, Ian directly says that they need to ask Vicky herself what happened between her and Grace. For my main playthrough, where Ian goes down the Introspection path, I'm not going to lie to him. Is it wrong for Vicky? Absolutely. But in this case, Edwin needs someone he can rely on no matter what. He's already been going down this path alone too much.
Even Victoria herself wanted to confess her past to both of them and there are hints about this.

As for Grace, I have vague doubts that she even thought about the option where her blackmail would completely backfired and this would turn Ian against her even more. And this is despite the fact that Victoria herself told her this to her face:

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This is exactly what awaits Grace in my main playthrough

As for her "voluntary act" - I completely disagree. I think in the last update it's not for nothing that the topic of Victoria wanting to sell the house is touched upon (as Veronica said, Vicky wants to turn the page in her life).

I'm starting to think more and more that Edwin isn't just a sadist by nature, he's an empathetic sadist

 

[Maccabbee]

This goes without saying. But the 2 major choices (confess to Ian and delete the videos) that TD gives us at the very end of the update give the player the opportunity to think about their choices in their main playthrough and not be guided by "I'll first see what these choices lead to, and then choose the "good" option".

For Edwin, the truth hasn't yet been revealed. Victoria's attempt to confess to her past, which he has known for many years, can hardly be called the truth. If you go by instinct, as you mentioned earlier, then the "good" choice for him would be to lie to Ian. Edwin himself feels this:

Spoiler

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After this, Ian directly says that they need to ask Vicky herself what happened between her and Grace. For my main playthrough, where Ian goes down the Introspection path, I'm not going to lie to him. Is it wrong for Vicky? Absolutely. But in this case, Edwin needs someone he can rely on no matter what. He's already been going down this path alone too much.
Even Victoria herself wanted to confess her past to both of them and there are hints about this.

As for Grace, I have vague doubts that she even thought about the option where her blackmail would completely backfired and this would turn Ian against her even more. And this is despite the fact that Victoria herself told her this to her face:

Spoiler

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This is exactly what awaits Grace in my main playthrough

As for her "voluntary act" - I completely disagree. I think in the last update it's not for nothing that the topic of Victoria wanting to sell the house is touched upon (as Veronica said, Vicky wants to turn the page in her life).

I'm starting to think more and more that Edwin isn't just a sadist by nature, he's an empathetic sadist

I agree with this (based on my Maintaining my Friendship with Introspective Ian, sadistic but caring/good MC run) 100%. I am also out of reactions.

 

[lustforsex]

I also want to point out that TD and GIL did a good job with the music that accompanies the players' choices. It's easy to confuse the player that way

 

[DETROIT123_io]

Guys rememeber when the debt collecter oliver went to Rosalind's house in week 3 part 3 , we saw her house was messed up . And during dialogue , He almost smacked Rose in the face . So did Rose got beaten or slapped before we came in ? What happened in the house before that
?

 

[se20299]

The Victoria plotline could go in so many directions. Ian's reaction will obvioulsy hinge on his introspection. Will he be mature enough to accept Vicky as she is or will he resent her for being just another whore when he truly loved her. Edwin knows Ian better than anyone, and he knows Ian's reaction will more than likely be negative, that's why he desperately tells him Victoria is still the same as ever. Also, when the penny drops that Grace blackmailed Vicky and that Chuck used to torment her, Ian's whole world will turn upside down, more than it already was.


As for Edwin, he's also not very eager to hear it from the horse's mouth, despite wanting the "truth". His flimsy cope of "she sacrificed herself for me" is slowly crumbling, especially since the Donovan scene all but spelled it out that Vicky did porn first and foremost because she wanted to. Donovan even calls her out on it, as no woman will do 4 scenes and come back for more unless she's into it. Vicky's a natural whore, and Donny quickly seems to peg her as one. Victoria said it herself, she didn't mind doing gangbangs, but the lack of production values and amateutism bothered her. Edwin's visceral disgust at meeting Donovan shows us he's not nearly ready for the truth.


My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.


Edwin's entire worldview revolves around his mother's "sacrifice" for him and his guilt and self flaggelation because of it. He sees what his mother did as humiliating and shameful, and he believes he's the cause of that because his mom wanted to keep him comfortable. While that's partially true, the reason he feels so guilty and he constantly rewatches his mother's tapes is because he percieves women having sex as inherently negative and humiliating, and him being at the club only amplifies that perception. I see the choice of "delete/keep the tapes" as Edwin metaphorically forgiving both Vicky and himself and letting go of his obsession. Or alternatively reaching a moral event horizon where is obsession only gets deeper the closer he is to the "truth".

As for Vicky selling the house, she's been extremely lonely since Edwin moved out for college, especially in a big, empty house full of bittersweet memories. She's been trying out dating apps, but she didn't have much luck besides a few hookups, as she admitted to Ian. So she's probably trying to turn a new leaf and begin anew. As for Edwin's negative reaction, it's probably the realization that he's been falling out of touch with his mom since he started working at the Club, and the fact that his mom seemingly wants to move on from their house he grew up in and all the memories they had together, possibly the memory of his father, too. Most importanly, it's a painful reminder that they're slowly drifting apart, and things are changing in both of their lives, and Edwin never got to pay off the debt he thinks he owes her.

Mind you, this is all my speculation, and I'm bored at work so I'm writing this wall of text.

 

[slightchance]

So did Rose got beaten or slapped before we came in ?

"Did he hurt you in any way before we got here?"
"...he just knocked me down a couple of times.

Like a KISS from a Rose: Keep it simple, stupid. Especially when spinning tales.

 

[Maccabbee]

The Victoria plotline could go in so many directions. Ian's reaction will obvioulsy hinge on his introspection. Will he be mature enough to accept Vicky as she is or will he resent her for being just another whore when he truly loved her. Edwin knows Ian better than anyone, and he knows Ian's reaction will more than likely be negative, that's why he desperately tells him Victoria is still the same as ever. Also, when the penny drops that Grace blackmailed Vicky and that Chuck used to torment her, Ian's whole world will turn upside down, more than it already was.


As for Edwin, he's also not very eager to hear it from the horse's mouth, despite wanting the "truth". His flimsy cope of "she sacrificed herself for me" is slowly crumbling, especially since the Donovan scene all but spelled it out that Vicky did porn first and foremost because she wanted to. Donovan even calls her out on it, as no woman will do 4 scenes and come back for more unless she's into it. Vicky's a natural whore, and Donny quickly seems to peg her as one. Victoria said it herself, she didn't mind doing gangbangs, but the lack of production values and amateutism bothered her. Edwin's visceral disgust at meeting Donovan shows us he's not nearly ready for the truth.


My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.


Edwin's entire worldview revolves around his mother's "sacrifice" for him and his guilt and self flaggelation because of it. He sees what his mother did as humiliating and shameful, and he believes he's the cause of that because his mom wanted to keep him comfortable. While that's partially true, the reason he feels so guilty and he constantly rewatches his mother's tapes is because he percieves women having sex as inherently negative and humiliating, and him being at the club only amplifies that perception. I see the choice of "delete/keep the tapes" as Edwin metaphorically forgiving both Vicky and himself and letting go of his obsession. Or alternatively reaching a moral event horizon where is obsession only gets deeper the closer he is to the "truth".

As for Vicky selling the house, she's been extremely lonely since Edwin moved out for college, especially in a big, empty house full of bittersweet memories. She's been trying out dating apps, but she didn't have much luck besides a few hookups, as she admitted to Ian. So she's probably trying to turn a new leaf and begin anew. As for Edwin's negative reaction, it's probably the realization that he's been falling out of touch with his mom since he started working at the Club, and the fact that his mom seemingly wants to move on from their house he grew up in and all the memories they had together, possibly the memory of his father, too. Most importanly, it's a painful reminder that they're slowly drifting apart, and things are changing in both of their lives, and Edwin never got to pay off the debt he thinks he owes her.

Mind you, this is all my speculation, and I'm bored at work so I'm writing this wall of text.

A lot of this is your inferences rather than what I feel is actually implied in the game, particularly in Edwin's sexual proclivities. Aside from his intense Sadism (if you choose that route), he seems a thoughtful lover and has great sex with (in my run) his girlfriend Hana, and previously with his FWB Mina. I don't think of the Sadism thing as deviant if it's consensual, just another flavor of sexual preferences (you don't always gotta get one flavor of ice cream, and can enjoy multiple kinds).

 

[GamingSavant]

My personal observation is that Edwin is a pretty sex negative person, especially when it comes to women enjoying sex. Most of the times he sees a woman enjoying sex, his mind wonders back to his mother and some variation of "she's pretending to enjoy it just like my mom pretended to enjoy porn...right?". It's a very unhealthy mindset to have, and the club can potentially encourage some of his worst traits. During dirty talk, he constantly belittles Rose and Lucy for whoring themselves out for nothing in Lucy's case, or in Rose's case for enjoying it. What happens when it clicks for Edwin that his mother eagerly jumped into porn despite having a degree, and by his own admission, not having money troubles.

I think he's quite the opposite. For example after the first round with Hana after their date night, while he's in the shower, he says: "(God, I love sex)."

Not to mention he almost always spends his first time with any girl fingering or eating them out, cuz he likes making them cum. Seeing women squirm from pleasure is a turn-on for him.

 

[ffive]

I think he's quite the opposite. For example after the first round with Hana after their date night, while he's in the shower, he says: "(God, I love sex)."

Not to mention he almost always spends his first time with any girl fingering or eating them out, cuz he likes making them cum. Seeing women squirm from pleasure is a turn-on for him.

Yeah, i don't see how one would think Edwin has that kind of thoughts and attitude towards sex when he works his ass off to make the girl cum multiple times.

 

[TD1900]

Yeah, i don't see how one would think Edwin has that kind of thoughts and attitude towards sex when he works his ass off to make the girl cum multiple times.

Duh. Eating pussy makes you a feminist, obviously.

I wouldn't label Edwin as sex negative person (it's not like he's not open to people banging), but I wouldn't call him sex positive either. At the very least, has some sex-negative thoughts.

When it comes to Vicky, he doesn't want to accept that she might have done porn for any other reason than the one most convenient to him because (to him) the alternative is that she's a whore. There's no middle ground where she's a willful woman with an itch to scratch, it's an either and or thing. Sex taints her image. Which is understandable given what he's seen her do, that's his mom, but it seeps into his dealings with other women from time-to-time.

It can be hard to say where the line between Edwin's dirty talk and his personal demons begins. There's this weird overlap between our unthinking feelings that have been hammered into us by centuries of puritanism and our more "enlightened" side that results in the negative connotations around sex becoming fodder for our pillow talk. There are some scenarios in the game where you could argue Edwin's thoughts extend beyond dirty talk and he's internally wrestling with feelings of revulsion. Whether that's because some part of him sees sex as a dirty thing or he's just disgusted by Felicia's frivolous attitude is up to interpretation. Either way, it's a product of his psychic damage.

 

[lustforsex]

Yeah, i don't see how one would think Edwin has that kind of thoughts and attitude towards sex when he works his ass off to make the girl cum multiple times.

A sadist who enjoys giving pleasure to others more than he enjoys receiving it. An odd combination. And I think this is a good option to redirect sadism into another direction. Now imagine two such people meeting - that's the real peak. Mina probably excels in this regard.

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Over time, this scene has become more and more my favorite, even though I didn't think so the first time. Mina did the best job of making Edwin believe that her intentions were genuine. IMO.

 

[GamingSavant]

A sadist who enjoys giving pleasure to others more than he enjoys receiving it. An odd combination. And I think this is a good option to redirect sadism into another direction. Now imagine two such people meeting - that's the real peak. Mina probably excels in this regard.

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Over time, this scene has become more and more my favorite, even though I didn't think so the first time. Mina did the best job of making Edwin believe that her intentions were genuine. IMO.

The Hotel scene with Mina is definitely one of my favorites too, cuz it's Edwin meeting someone with perfect charm and cuteness who is willing to be as freaky as he wants to take it. It's also a set-up for a later scene with my absolute favorite scene so far, "The More the Merrier"

 

[prpa]

The Hotel scene with Mina is definitely one of my favorites too, cuz it's Edwin meeting someone with perfect charm and cuteness who is willing to be as freaky as he wants to take it. It's also a set-up for a later scene with my absolute favorite scene so far, "The More the Merrier"

The hotel scene with Mina is great, and the threesome with Felicia is one of the hottest scenes ever. However, the date with Felicia (especially the ending) is hard to pass up because they are one of my favorite scenes in the game. As a result, I've only seen the threesome once.

 

[GamingSavant]

The hotel scene with Mina is great, and the threesome with Felicia is one of the hottest scenes ever. However, the date with Felicia (especially the ending) is hard to pass up because they are one of my favorite scenes in the game. As a result, I've only seen the threesome once.

Only way I can see it being topped is if the inevitable Hana x Mina threesome tops it.

 

[ename144]

This goes without saying. But the 2 major choices (confess to Ian and delete the videos) that TD gives us at the very end of the update give the player the opportunity to think about their choices in their main playthrough and not be guided by "I'll first see what these choices lead to, and then choose the "good" option".

Sure, but a better way to do that is to make sure both options lead to quality content, just content of a different kind. I'll be very disappointed if it turns out one choice (even my prefered choice of deleting the files) has unambiguously better rewards.

For Edwin, the truth hasn't yet been revealed. Victoria's attempt to confess to her past, which he has known for many years, can hardly be called the truth. If you go by instinct, as you mentioned earlier, then the "good" choice for him would be to lie to Ian. Edwin himself feels this:

Spoiler

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After this, Ian directly says that they need to ask Vicky herself what happened between her and Grace. For my main playthrough, where Ian goes down the Introspection path, I'm not going to lie to him. Is it wrong for Vicky? Absolutely. But in this case, Edwin needs someone he can rely on no matter what. He's already been going down this path alone too much.
Even Victoria herself wanted to confess her past to both of them and there are hints about this.

I'm taking it on faith that the MC is correct about what Victoria was about to confess and that we will follow up on this topic at the next available opportunity. I think it would be a narrative disaster for a cliffhanger to tease something the game has been building towards for 5 years only to divert to an unrelated crisis in the next update. That's not to say there can't be any surprises - it's entirely possible there will be a lot more to the story than we currently know - but the known facts of Vicky's porn career have to be addressed and should form the backbone of whatever other revelations might be in store for us next time. IMHO, of course.

When it comes to the MC's inclination to lie to Ian in comparison to him planning to delete the tapes, not all instincts are created equal. The MC's instinct to lie to Ian is his first response in a crisis, whereas his instinct to delete the videos is the result of an indeterminate amount of time pondering the issue. I very much doubt it was his initial reaction when he first stumbled upon his mom's videos. So I don't really see the two scenarios as comparable.

As for Grace, I have vague doubts that she even thought about the option where her blackmail would completely backfired and this would turn Ian against her even more. And this is despite the fact that Victoria herself told her this to her face:

Spoiler

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This is exactly what awaits Grace in my main playthrough

As for her "voluntary act" - I completely disagree. I think in the last update it's not for nothing that the topic of Victoria wanting to sell the house is touched upon (as Veronica said, Vicky wants to turn the page in her life).

My point was that Grace wasn't interested in ruining Victoria's life, she was trying (poorly I agree, but still *trying*) to dragoon her into manipulating Ian. This implies that her dirty secret could stay buried if she just went along with Grace's demands. I take Vicky's request for the MC to bring Ian along with him as evidence that she will not go along with those demands - which would make it her choice to defy Grace by spilling the beans to the MC herself.

Again, this is obviously not something Victoria would have done absent Grace's base villainy, but it's still her choice. It's no different than saying Rose chose to become a Carnation rather than, say, choosing to work directly for Oliver or some other equally desperate option. A choice under duress is still a choice.

And in this case I do think it's instructive that as ashamed as Victoria seems to be about the skeletons in her closet, she'd still rather air them out than betray Ian's trust. Given that, it sure seems to me like following up on the topic, both to head off any other revelations and to help put her mind at ease, is entirely appropriate. Deleting the tapes is secondary to that, but I'd still say it's the more empathetic option given that Victoria is clearly not eager to revisit the details of those tapes with her son.

I'm starting to think more and more that Edwin isn't just a sadist by nature, he's an empathetic sadist

How is this in doubt? The MC being caught between his empathic and sadistic sides probably forms at least 20% of the game's text! They are both aspects of his personality, and a large part of our job as players is to tilt the balance between them. I suppose we could debate how much of those aspects is nature vs nurture, but I think we have enough contentious topics to mull over for the moment.

 

[lustforsex]

Sure, but a better way to do that is to make sure both options lead to quality content, just content of a different kind. I'll be very disappointed if it turns out one choice (even my prefered choice of deleting the files) has unambiguously better rewards.


I'm taking it on faith that the MC is correct about what Victoria was about to confess and that we will follow up on this topic at the next available opportunity. I think it would be a narrative disaster for a cliffhanger to tease something the game has been building towards for 5 years only to divert to an unrelated crisis in the next update. That's not to say there can't be any surprises - it's entirely possible there will be a lot more to the story than we currently know - but the known facts of Vicky's porn career have to be addressed and should form the backbone of whatever other revelations might be in store for us next time. IMHO, of course.

When it comes to the MC's inclination to lie to Ian in comparison to him planning to delete the tapes, not all instincts are created equal. The MC's instinct to lie to Ian is his first response in a crisis, whereas his instinct to delete the videos is the result of an indeterminate amount of time pondering the issue. I very much doubt it was his initial reaction when he first stumbled upon his mom's videos. So I don't really see the two scenarios as comparable.


My point was that Grace wasn't interested in ruining Victoria's life, she was trying (poorly I agree, but still *trying*) to dragoon her into manipulating Ian. This implies that her dirty secret could stay buried if she just went along with Grace's demands. I take Vicky's request for the MC to bring Ian along with him as evidence that she will not go along with those demands - which would make it her choice to defy Grace by spilling the beans to the MC herself.

Again, this is obviously not something Victoria would have done absent Grace's base villainy, but it's still her choice. It's no different than saying Rose chose to become a Carnation rather than, say, choosing to work directly for Oliver or some other equally desperate option. A choice under duress is still a choice.

And in this case I do think it's instructive that as ashamed as Victoria seems to be about the skeletons in her closet, she'd still rather air them out than betray Ian's trust. Given that, it sure seems to me like following up on the topic, both to head off any other revelations and to help put her mind at ease, is entirely appropriate. Deleting the tapes is secondary to that, but I'd still say it's the more empathetic option given that Victoria is clearly not eager to revisit the details of those tapes with her son.


How is this in doubt? The MC being caught between his empathic and sadistic sides probably forms at least 20% of the game's text! They are both aspects of his personality, and a large part of our job as players is to tilt the balance between them. I suppose we could debate how much of those aspects is nature vs nurture, but I think we have enough contentious topics to mull over for the moment.

I'll give you a short answer. In my main playthrough, Edwin doesn't try to hurt anyone and keeps his sadistic side in check as much as possible in relation to others. If one last decision to not delete the videos turns him into a monster, I'll be disappointed too.

 

[Maccabbee]

I'll give you a short answer. In my main playthrough, Edwin doesn't try to hurt anyone and keeps his sadistic side in check as much as possible in relation to others. If one last decision to not delete the videos turns him into a monster, I'll be disappointed too.

I still don't understand why so many of you think negatively of sexual sadism. It's a kink, like any other. If it's consensual, it's okay. Masochists get off on it. "If it makes you happy it isn't so bad".

 

[lustforsex]

I still don't understand why so many of you think negatively of sexual sadism. It's a kink, like any other. If it's consensual, it's okay. Masochists get off on it. "If it makes you happy it isn't so bad".

The question here is whether you consider Felicia, Rose and Veronica worthy of taking out your sadistic side on them if you don't have to. If it's consensual, that's a given. In their situation, I don't see it.

 

[Maccabbee]

I am really trying to withhold myself from responding to these gooner incel comments. Fuckers like sex, but women who like sex are whores. Fucking insecure fuckwads. Body count is just experience points. I'd rather fuck a woman who's leveled up their skills than some virgin that can't fuck.

 

[Ozymandias037]

The question here is whether you consider Felicia, Rose and Veronica worthy of taking out your sadistic side on them if you don't have to. If it's consensual, that's a given. In their situation, I don't see it.

It's consensual in at least some instances. Specifically thinking here of Felicia saying "It's okay, let it out." Granted that remark was probably largely born of her own insecurities and baggage, but that's a whoooooole other thing.

And not to resurrect an argument we've had way too many times already, but all three Carnations are participating in the competition willingly. They're desperate, and coerced consent is extremely dubious, but there's nothing to stop any of them from saying "no, enough" and dropping out.