VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Leinad_Sevla]

View attachment 5181103
Dev Diary 100

Hello all, TD here.

It’s been a weird couple of weeks, but let’s first get the numbers out of the way. Currently Chapter4Up6 sits at 2,446 static images, 92 animations, and 51,544 words.

That totals out to 96 statics, 15 animations, and 3,194 words added to the script since our last dev diary.

Now, the elephant in the room: *we will be releasing everything up to the exhibition proper as its own update.*

Quite frankly, while I want desperately for you guys to play the entire day, we could use the hit of motivation that a release provides. We’ve both been sick over these past three weeks, but even accounting for that, we have been noticeably dragging our feet to a finish line that isn’t anywhere close. It’s a malaise that will inevitably eat into the remaining portion of the update, both leading us to cut corners and take the turns we do take more slowly. I’ve fed myself a heap of copium these past two weeks that this wouldn’t be the case and that we would rally through, but I feel it in my bones. We need the mental refresh from having our work seen.

I know we’re going against the majority result with this, but thank you for your input in the decision. Your kind, thoughtful comments not only helped us see the writing on the wall through a litany pros and cons, but there was a few times where I teared up from the expressions of unconditional support regardless our decision. It sounds corny, but it helped me shift my perspective and see that, no matter how we piece it out, once Chapter 4 is done… it’s done. It’ll be judged on its entirety, not by the arbitrary lines I draw in the sand. It’s a conclusion I arrived at early on in Chapter 3 when we had to break up the Carnation photo shoots, but it was time for a reminder.

Thanks, guys. For both your understanding and investment into us.

Going forward, once update 6 is in your hands, our goal will be to get the remaining portion of the exhibition 3 out in three to four months. We’ve always refrained from putting an explicit time frame on an update, but… fuck it, let’s see how it goes. Ironically, a little constraint might be beneficial for the creative process.

Although I still maintain my opinion that I would rather wait for the full update, I´d be lying if i said I wasn´t happy that I´m getting something earlier. I have great confidence in these Devs to put out a great work.

 

[Turret]

Although I still maintain my opinion that I would rather wait for the full update, I´d be lying if i said I wasn´t happy that I´m getting something earlier. I have great confidence in these Devs to put out a great work.

Hi!
You say it yourself, while you would wait, you are also happy to get an update earlier. We might be among the big fans, but let us think about the players/patrons who are casual fans or fencesitters, an update taking over a year for them it would be too long. It would hurt the game development seriously. Even DPC, who is an outlier when it comes to AVN success, is banking more on his existing fanbase with his longer and longer taking update intervalls than attracting new players.
I have kicked BaDik from my harddrive quite a time ago and do not miss it at all. It would be very different with PC, since we are onboard for the various storylines in this crime game with erotica in combination with the great artwork.

As I wrote above, the coming update will be meaty since it is already in the typical range of PC updates, it won´t be a "short one" as some players seem to fear. And we already had updates without an Exhibition taking place in it, besides the events outside the Exhibitions normally are more intriguing than the "Sex BDSM Olympics" itself.

 

[Discrepancy]

Hi!
You say it yourself, while you would wait, you are also happy to get an update earlier. We might be among the big fans, but let us think about the players/patrons who are casual fans or fencesitters, an update taking over a year for them it would be too long. It would hurt the game development seriously. Even DPC, who is an outlier when it comes to AVN success, is banking more on his existing fanbase with his longer and longer taking update intervalls than attracting new players.
I have kicked BaDik from my harddrive quite a time ago and do not miss it at all. It would be very different with PC, since we are onboard for the various storylines in this crime game with erotica in combination with the great artwork.

As I wrote above, the coming update will be meaty since it is already in the typical range of PC updates, it won´t be a "short one" as some players seem to fear. And we already had updates without an Exhibition taking place in it, besides the events outside the Exhibitions normally are more intriguing than the "Sex BDSM Olympics" itself.

Not saying you're wrong but pretty sure badik is the most successful AVN here and on patreon even with the long development times so not sure long development times hurt Pale Carnations, the development time is going to be long anyway even with the split.
What it matter is what TD said, he and Gil think it's better releasing it this way and that's all that should matter to us Fans in my opinion.

 

[Turret]

Not saying you're wrong but pretty sure badik is the most successful AVN here and on patreon even with the long development times so not sure long development times hurt Pale Carnations, the development time is going to be long anyway even with the split.
What it matter is what TD said, he and Gil think it's better releasing it this way and that's all that should matter to us Fans in my opinion.

Hi Discrepancy !
As I wrote BaDiK is a positive outlier when it comes to AVN success. Personally I find the game rather mediocre, a student fantasy "I am Biggus Diggus", nothing more. DPC made it at the right time and reaps in the success. But even with a broad fanbase, there are the first miffed, and more than a few; fans due to the longer and longer gaps between updates and the length of the updates itself, which are a fraction of size compared to PC updates.
DPC is banking more on the existing fans than thinking about new fans these days.

I am 100% sure TD and GIL make the right decision with releasing the update this way instead of waiting for the "full one". Both the current size of the update and the intervall time to the last update are in the usual span we have come to expect for Pale Carnation updates.
This time next year nobody, not even the "wait" faction, will give a flying fuck about the fact that the 3. exhibition will be in the next after next update and not this one. One day PC will be a complete one package and a semi-arbitrarily set stop point for an update along the way forgotten.
Keeping an expected intervall with meaty updates wins in the long run. We are otakus for PC, we are on the train ride until the end, but the casual fans, fencesitters and generally interested will find developers who are consistent and trustworthy, keeping to their schedules more worthy of support!
Because let´s face it, the number of developers here who are consistent in their work, keeping roughly their usual intervall of updates with sizeable content are a distinct minority. TD and GIL are among those few developers you can trust to deliver what they promised. And it is very good that developers like them still exist!
The software/games industry is full of persons you can trust as far as you can throw them, even big studios are full of people you do not need to know. Just look at studios like e.g. Firaxis/Take2, Paradox, EA whose EULA and DLC practises are modern robbery and forced consent.
I am truly happy to see that at least some studios and indie developers, TD and GIL among them, are honest creators.

 

[Ottoeight]

Not saying you're wrong but pretty sure badik is the most successful AVN here and on patreon even with the long development times so not sure long development times hurt Pale Carnations, the development time is going to be long anyway even with the split.
What it matter is what TD said, he and Gil think it's better releasing it this way and that's all that should matter to us Fans in my opinion.

Summertime Saga has ALWAYS been number 1 rank by far.

BaDIK is number 6: it was number 2 before DrPinkCake started his fucking 1-year-at-least cycle development habits - i.e. until he released that Interlude shit - then its popularity started to decline.

So, very long development cycles can be double-edged blades, buuuuuuut Summertime Saga is different, because it's not a game, but a cult and its Patrons are not patrons, but cult followers and DC is their prophet.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[Discrepancy]

Hi Discrepancy !
As I wrote BaDiK is a positive outlier when it comes to AVN success. Personally I find the game rather mediocre, a student fantasy "I am Biggus Diggus", nothing more. DPC made it at the right time and reaps in the success. But even with a broad fanbase, there are the first miffed, and more than a few; fans due to the longer and longer gaps between updates and the length of the updates itself, which are a fraction of size compared to PC updates.
DPC is banking more on the existing fans than thinking about new fans these days.

I am 100% sure TD and GIL make the right decision with releasing the update this way instead of waiting for the "full one". Both the current size of the update and the intervall time to the last update are in the usual span we have come to expect for Pale Carnation updates.
This time next year nobody, not even the "wait" faction, will give a flying fuck about the fact that the 3. exhibition will be in the next after next update and not this one. One day PC will be a complete one package and a semi-arbitrarily set stop point for an update along the way forgotten.
Keeping an expected intervall with meaty updates wins in the long run. We are otakus for PC, we are on the train ride until the end, but the casual fans, fencesitters and generally interested will find developers who are consistent and trustworthy, keeping to their schedules more worthy of support!
Because let´s face it, the number of developers here who are consistent in their work, keeping roughly their usual intervall of updates with sizeable content are a distinct minority. TD and GIL are among those few developers you can trust to deliver what they promised. And it is very good that developers like them still exist!
The software/games industry is full of persons you can trust as far as you can throw them, even big studios are full of people you do not need to know. Just look at studios like e.g. Firaxis/Take2, Paradox, EA whose EULA and DLC practises are modern robbery and forced consent.
I am truly happy to see that at least some studios and indie developers, TD and GIL among them, are honest creators.

Hey, I really don't like to talk about other games in the Pale Carnations thread, and no offence but your opinion on Badik doesn't matter to the fact that the game is really popular and successful even with their long update times, and the same can be said for Pale Carnations, this is a very successful game, with the split or without a split it will remain popular unless it becomes shit, and you and I know that it won't happen.
Once again without wanting to talk about other games, but the ones I follow (the ones on my signature basically) all have long update times except one, and that one is 2d drawings so probably the variable that matters here, but all the others have long development times, minimum 6 months, some a year and they all have great quality in the art department which is probably the most defining time for the long dev times.
I understand the split (faction) worries about the possibility of the game being damaged by the long delays, but the same can happen by people being disappointed for lack of sex scenes or the split ending on an unsatisfactory part (don't believe it will happen).
Anyways as someone that was mostly on the wait camp, I'm happy the devs reached a decision and can't wait for playing the update

 

[Discrepancy]

Summertime Saga has ALWAYS been number 1 rank by far.

BaDIK is number 6: it was number 2 before DrPinkCake started his fucking 1-year-at-least cycle development habits - i.e. until he released that Interlude shit - then its popularity started to decline.

So, very long development cycles can be double-edged blades, buuuuuuut Summertime Saga is different, because it's not a game, but a cult and its Patrons are not patrons, but cult followers and DC is their prophet.

You must be registered to see the links

Oh, ok my mistake then, BaDIK is still the most popular in this site though.
And yes I agree on the double edge sword analogy, long updates can damage the game, but fast can too with lack of content ( but lack of content never applied for this game I think).

 

[Doggor]

Just wanna toss my two cents regarding games in general having long wait times between updates.

You gotta realize most of these Devs on these perv games that we love are either flying solo or have a small team, so i'll give them a pass on it, especially GIL and TD just based on how impeccable their track record is.

The alternative to the long time between updates isnt that much of a better choice IMO, if anyone's familiar with NLT's works, Their current title Symphony of the Serpent they update every 2 weeks but barely any of it is substantial (only adding a few scenes and/or moving the story along by 1%) it leaves you wanting more and a feeling of "its better to just wait until the game is finished"/enough content has been added. Not to mention the annoying constant patching of the game and having to refresh your memory where it left off every 2 weeks.

But then theres extreme cases like the other games mentioned on this topic where the wait between game updates are so unreasonably long that it starts to feel like the devs are milking their patreon members.

I think theres a reasonable middle ground to be reached here around 3-4 months per a sizable update (TD mentioned that that's their timeframe with the 2nd half of the update) but i also understand that making a good thing takes time and most likely most of these games will stay around the 6-9 months update cadence and thats just how it is.

Interesting topic though for sure.

 

[mathe7n6]

Does anyone know what sexual content we can expect in this first split?

 

[Turret]

Hey, I really don't like to talk about other games in the Pale Carnations thread, and no offence but your opinion on Badik doesn't matter to the fact that the game is really popular and successful even with their long update times, and the same can be said for Pale Carnations, this is a very successful game, with the split or without a split it will remain popular unless it becomes shit, and you and I know that it won't happen.
Once again without wanting to talk about other games, but the ones I follow (the ones on my signature basically) all have long update times except one, and that one is 2d drawings so probably the variable that matters here, but all the others have long development times, minimum 6 months, some a year and they all have great quality in the art department which is probably the most defining time for the long dev times.
I understand the split (faction) worries about the possibility of the game being damaged by the long delays, but the same can happen by people being disappointed for lack of sex scenes or the split ending on an unsatisfactory part (don't believe it will happen).
Anyways as someone that was mostly on the wait camp, I'm happy the devs reached a decision and can't wait for playing the update

Hi again!
As I mentioned earlier, happy players are the result of correct interplay of update intervall, size and quality of update and general consistency. Up to a certain point, medium to long intervalls (6-9 months) are unproblematic if the update content is sizeable and meets the players taste. Quality takes time. PC never disappointed with it´s updates on content.
But as Otto mentioned in his post, even quality games will suffer if you overdo the update intervall. H.H. Gossen and his law strike again in these cases. Diminishing returns.
And a year or more is too long even for quality games. The otakus might not care or think it just barely acceptable, but the playerbase beyond them does care for several reasons.
Anyway, I too look forward to play th new update when it comes out.

Does anyone know what sexual content we can expect in this first split?

No, but we know from the Dev logs and TD himself, that exclusive events for "girlfriend Hana" are on the menu and there will be a Sophia meeting, but we do not know how sexual this might be.

 

[Darreau91]

Does anyone know what sexual content we can expect in this first split?

Hopefully some Mina girlfriend content. Hana gave a blowie with her dad around. Maybe Edwin can play pin ball on Mina’s bubble booty while Sora does arcade stuff.

 

[Garen]

Now that our 'Split' faction won, we should apply a 150% tariff on any posts from the 'Wait' faction.

 

[ename144]

But as Otto mentioned in his post, even quality games will suffer if you overdo the update intervall. H.H. Gossen and his law strike again in these cases. Diminishing returns.
And a year or more is too long even for quality games. The otakus might not care or think it just barely acceptable, but the playerbase beyond them does care for several reasons.
Anyway, I too look forward to play th new update when it comes out.

It's easy to say this, but I don't see a lot of support for that thesis. There are a number of popular games on this site with long development times, and no shortage of disregarded games with short development times. The only real example I can think of where a long development cycle crippled interest in a game required comically long pauses, and even that one's debatable since the game was also stuck in an endless series of remakes of old content - a phenomenon which I think has a much clearer impact on fan (dis)interest.

Obviously long development time is always going to be a negative when it comes to fan satisfaction. Still, if I had to rate it against other traits like dev/community interaction, transparency, story/character progression and general quality of the product, I'd put it at the bottom of the list every time. Interest in the game may hibernate during the long winter, but it will pop back good as new - as long as the eventual update delivers the goods. Granted, quality is very subjective, but then again it's not like we can calculate a specific development time that's "too long." It's all very nebulous when you start trying to assign cause and effect.

And personally, I don't even think it really matters. If TD & GIL think they'll deliver a better product by splitting the work up into smaller chunks, I'd say that's more than sufficient reason to support the split. Trying to turn short dev cycles into some sort of global truism is just muddying the water. IMHO, of course.

 

[DarkLords00]

It's easy to say this, but I don't see a lot of support for that thesis. There are a number of popular games on this site with long development times, and no shortage of disregarded games with short development times. The only real example I can think of where a long development cycle crippled interest in a game required comically long pauses, and even that one's debatable since the game was also stuck in an endless series of remakes of old content - a phenomenon which I think has a much clearer impact on fan (dis)interest.

Obviously long development time is always going to be a negative when it comes to fan satisfaction. Still, if I had to rate it against other traits like dev/community interaction, transparency, story/character progression and general quality of the product, I'd put it at the bottom of the list every time. Interest in the game may hibernate during the long winter, but it will pop back good as new - as long as the eventual update delivers the goods. Granted, quality is very subjective, but then again it's not like we can calculate a specific development time that's "too long." It's all very nebulous when you start trying to assign cause and effect.

And personally, I don't even think it really matters. If TD & GIL think they'll deliver a better product by splitting the work up into smaller chunks, I'd say that's more than sufficient reason to support the split. Trying to turn short dev cycles into some sort of global truism is just muddying the water. IMHO, of course.

I'm kind of the same mindset on this. Altough it is true waay too long development time may cause a loss of interest with the playerbase I think it takes way more than that for people to lose faith in developers. (I.E: Radio shutdown or very lack of transparecy between the developer and their patreons/players)

Say what you want about the certain waaay too "big headed"(ego incarnate ) developer from that "mainstream college game" but I'll give him credit where credit it's due and say that in all the years since I follow that game I don't remember him miss a weekly update and I don't believe it is his long updates that kills interest in the game but his obsession with his own game and how could he expand it far beyond what he intillay planned due to the enormous positive reception it got.

I don't believe people should worry about this game falling in that trap. As of now, all the important characters in the story are treated with the importance and respect needed in the story so far and no support charcters have come to steal/overshadow the spotlight due to fan popularity or cause of the developers had a change of mind and decided to start expanding the roster waay too broad for the playerbase.

This types of problems are the ones more likely to kill interest/investment in a game while the other situations just merely damages it a bit or can be mitigated when a new update relases. Due to the nature and transaparecy of TD and GIL I can't belive there will be an issue in the future of this game (story and characterwise at the very least) and despit having spoken against it I the decision to split the update CAN be the more positive one for all the parties involved and truly hope it will be the best one for the devs.

 

[Turret]

It's easy to say this, but I don't see a lot of support for that thesis. There are a number of popular games on this site with long development times, and no shortage of disregarded games with short development times. The only real example I can think of where a long development cycle crippled interest in a game required comically long pauses, and even that one's debatable since the game was also stuck in an endless series of remakes of old content - a phenomenon which I think has a much clearer impact on fan (dis)interest.

Obviously long development time is always going to be a negative when it comes to fan satisfaction. Still, if I had to rate it against other traits like dev/community interaction, transparency, story/character progression and general quality of the product, I'd put it at the bottom of the list every time. Interest in the game may hibernate during the long winter, but it will pop back good as new - as long as the eventual update delivers the goods. Granted, quality is very subjective, but then again it's not like we can calculate a specific development time that's "too long." It's all very nebulous when you start trying to assign cause and effect.

And personally, I don't even think it really matters. If TD & GIL think they'll deliver a better product by splitting the work up into smaller chunks, I'd say that's more than sufficient reason to support the split. Trying to turn short dev cycles into some sort of global truism is just muddying the water. IMHO, of course.

I'm kind of the same mindset on this. Altough it is true waay too long development time may cause a loss of interest with the playerbase I think it takes way more than that for people to lose faith in developers. (I.E: Radio shutdown or very lack of transparecy between the developer and their patreons/players)

Say what you want about the certain waaay too "big headed"(ego incarnate ) developer from that "mainstream college game" but I'll give him credit where credit it's due and say that in all the years since I follow that game I don't remember him miss a weekly update and I don't believe it is his long updates that kills interest in the game but his obsession with his own game and how could he expand it far beyond what he intillay planned due to the enormous positive reception it got.

I don't believe people should worry about this game falling in that trap. As of now, all the important characters in the story are treated with the importance and respect needed in the story so far and no support charcters have come to steal/overshadow the spotlight due to fan popularity or cause of the developers had a change of mind and decided to start expanding the roster waay too broad for the playerbase.

This types of problems are the ones more likely to kill interest/investment in a game while the other situations just merely damages it a bit or can be mitigated when a new update relases. Due to the nature and transaparecy of TD and GIL I can't belive there will be an issue in the future of this game (story and characterwise at the very least) and despit having spoken against it I the decision to split the update CAN be the more positive one for all the parties involved and truly hope it will be the best one for the devs.

Hi ename, Darklords!

I see and partly even agree with your arguments and you might have seen my point of the interplay of consistency, trustworthiness, content size/quality and update intervall length on what fans and customers are willing to accept when it comes to waiting times.
I know you cannot compare 1:1 AVN development with real life logistics, but I can tell you from work experience there are definite "too long", "too inconsistent quality" and "not trustworthy enough" points for any type of goods and customers/suppliers. These points vary in time span until reached due to several influences for each thing, but they exist.

While TD and GIL have a lot more leeway here than many other developers due to their humbleness, consistency, quality and track record, I am sure they made the right decision for PC and it´s further development to update now.

 

[Khan merry]

We got any release date yet?

 

[TD1900]

We got any release date yet?

Like usual, it'll be announced when we're a few days from closing on the image work.

Which will likely be before the next dev diary is supposed to land, but we'll see. We have the scene that we were planning to end on remaining, but I also want to squeeze something in earlier than I might've now that we have indeed decided to split the update.

 

[Khan merry]

Like usual, it'll be announced when we're a few days from closing on the image work.

Which will likely be before the next dev diary is supposed to land, but we'll see. We have the scene that we were planning to end on remaining, but I also want to squeeze something in earlier than I might've now that we have indeed decided to split the update.

Thanks TD, i appreciate it.

 

[aliy]

Can someone who has played all paths send their save files please
I've played up to chapter 4 update 4 I think or 3 and wanted to continue then realized I've lost all my saves, and as you know the game is quite long especially if you're like me and want to see all the content so replaying even skipping is gonna take a while

 

[Leinad_Sevla]

Hi!
You say it yourself, while you would wait, you are also happy to get an update earlier. We might be among the big fans, but let us think about the players/patrons who are casual fans or fencesitters, an update taking over a year for them it would be too long. It would hurt the game development seriously. Even DPC, who is an outlier when it comes to AVN success, is banking more on his existing fanbase with his longer and longer taking update intervalls than attracting new players.
I have kicked BaDik from my harddrive quite a time ago and do not miss it at all. It would be very different with PC, since we are onboard for the various storylines in this crime game with erotica in combination with the great artwork.

As I wrote above, the coming update will be meaty since it is already in the typical range of PC updates, it won´t be a "short one" as some players seem to fear. And we already had updates without an Exhibition taking place in it, besides the events outside the Exhibitions normally are more intriguing than the "Sex BDSM Olympics" itself.

While it sucks to wait a long time for an update, any fan of these games should understand why they take such a long time to make. As the plot develops and more LIs and story branches are introduced, the Devs will take more time because it obviously becomes more laborious to do them. This game is also done with Honey Select, which allows for great animations, which is a great bonus for the sex scenes, so the Devs will (and should) take advantage of that. As the game progresses and the LIs get introduced and their relationships develops, they have to make more sex scenes for the different scenarios and paths. So players should be aware that these games will likely have increasingly bigger update times. Not to mention that a lot of these Devs (I don´t know if that´s the case with the PC devs in particular) have lives and jobs outside of making these games, so they might not even be working on them full-time.
As for your comparison with DPC and BadIk, did you stop playing it because of the update time or did you just lost interested in the story? I still play that game and I´m still interested in the story, although it isn´t in my top3 anymore.
I also am aware that the update that we´re going to get will be big as it is, since the goal was to make the Exhibition in full and then release all of it, so I´m not worried about that.
In fact, the biggest reason why I wanted the full update was to get the Exhibition out of the way so we can focus on the relationships outside of it. My favourite parts are the interactions with Hana and Mina, those are what I´m waiting for.

What it matter is what TD said, he and Gil think it's better releasing it this way and that's all that should matter to us Fans in my opinion.

While I think I understand what you mean with this, I don´t know if I can agree with it. We´re not just sheep who should just agree with whatever the shepherds decide it´s best. If the Devs think it´s better this way, they´re obviously going to do it that way, us players can´t do anything about that. We can, however, think they are wrong in doing that.

if anyone's familiar with NLT's works, Their current title Symphony of the Serpent they update every 2 weeks but barely any of it is substantial (only adding a few scenes and/or moving the story along by 1%) it leaves you wanting more and a feeling of "its better to just wait until the game is finished"/enough content has been added.

Every update from NLT´s games has 3 lewd scenes, everytime. But that could mean 3 actual sex scenes or 3 scenes with teasing but no action. That´s why I usually let 2/3 months pass between updates, so that I have a decent amount to play.