VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Bill Temple]

I was reading a thread on another game earlier tonight, and someone referred to Pale Carnations as "misogynist." And that's absolutely a valid take! There's certainly enough cruelty and humiliation being heaped on a lot of different woman in this game. But I disagree. Definitely not with the person's description of the scenes as involving "cruelty and humiliation" -- that's 100% accurate. And there are absolutely misogynist characters in the game, and a lot of them. But I don't think the game itself is misogynist. And not only because "but hey wait, not all the scenes are terrible!" That's a true statement, but it's a bad argument that doesn't hold water

Yea, PC portrays misogyny, but certainly the message of the game isn't misogynistic. In my playthroughs, that portrayal is negative and discordant with Edwin's better nature. I typed up a reply to that effect when I read Pax Draconis' comment, but it was already off-topic to be debating the weighted rating system in a game thread. To start debating the messaging of PC in another game thread , besides being rude to Jestur, would be an invitation for a mod purge. Also, if somebody played Pale Carnations and came away with the with the overview "[PC] features cruelty and humiliation towards its LIs and is generally misogynistic", then I doubt anything I could say would change their mind. I assume that they're sensitive enough about harsher themes in PC, that they can't bear to read the story deeply enough to make anything more than a snap judgement about the themes in the narrative.

Picking out some of your questions:

Are we complicit in the creation of such disturbing and cruel scenes, merely through the act of playing the game?

Generally, no. By playing, we're only complicit in bringing cruel scenes to life in our own minds and their effects on our own psyches.

Or is this just harmless escapism?

Yes it's harmless unless one feels negative personality changes or behaviors related to experiencing this fiction. It might be escapism if used just to experience a life one would never live, but maybe not limited to that if used for reflecting on our personalities (or navel gazing, as TD would call this whole discussion we're having)

Are we any less tainted if we download it here for free instead of supporting the developers on Patreon?

I've downloaded here for free, and been a Patreon for a while now too. I feel the same reading it in either case, which is to say TD & GIL haven't left any indelible marks neither upon my soul nor my taint.

Sure, the characters and events are fictional, but does that make us any less culpable for their suffering?

Yes, 10,000%. They are fictional, not real. We have responsibility to others only in the real world. If reading the events in this or any story create negative effects in the reader that he/she/it/they transmit outside themselves to the real world, that's where culpability begins.

The characters and events aren't real, but the emotional weight certainly is.

The emotional weight exists in the readers and creators. Again, if that emotional weight is impacting real life, that's a problem. Otherwise, it's fleeting fantasy or a tool for deeper introspection. Once you stop imaging or remembering the suffering of a character, that suffering disappears.

I think that making us view them through a sympathetic lens and see who they are outside the context of the club makes this game not misogynist at all, but actually subversively anti-misogynist, perhaps even feminist (although that's a BIG stretch and I am not at all sure that I would defend that position)

I agree. I read PC as anti-misogynist, among many other things.
And now that you mention it, perhaps it's a sneaky attempt to instill some empathetic perspectives into readers who may have anti-feminist proclivities. Wait! Are TD and GIL grooming misogynists into feminists! Sound the alarm! Retreat to 4chan, bros! We need to regroup against this insidious threat!

 

[TD1900]

Pale Carnations is about a spunky woman breaking through the glass ceiling of a male-dominated industry.

Go get it, Kat!

 

[Bill Temple]

Pale Carnations is about a spunky woman breaking through the glass ceiling of a male-dominated industry.

Go get it, Kat!

She's spunky alright.

Spoiler: Kitty Kat's full of spunk

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[Ass prefer]

She's spunky alright.

Spoiler: Kitty Kat's full of spunk

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Wait, the first picture, at what point does it happen? more precisely, when and where?

 

[Ass prefer]

She's spunky alright.

Spoiler: Kitty Kat's full of spunk

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Sometime after we were drugged, but when exactly and what did you choose in the dialogues?

 

[dolfe67]

I think the game is more feminist than misogynist. They fight the patriarchy with the best weapon they have, their pussies

 

[Ass prefer]

I think the game is more feminist than misogynist. They fight the patriarchy with the best weapon they have, their pussies

Spoiler

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[MoBy28]

Wait, the first picture, at what point does it happen? more precisely, when and where?

I believe that was before the contest when they were deciding Lucy or Red as the last contestant in Kat's office. You were given a choice where to place your load Lucy, Red or there. I took that one too lol.

 

[Ass prefer]

I believe that was before the contest when they were deciding Lucy or Red as the last contestant in Kat's office. You were given a choice where to place your load Lucy, Red or there. I took that one too lol.

Isn't this scene at the beginning of the game practically? Red? Do you mean Veronica?

 

[MoBy28]

Isn't this scene at the beginning of the game practically? Red? Do you mean Veronica?

Yes Veronica, kinda been using the nickname they gave her in game (keeps me from accidently typing in Victoria also). Too many stories and characters, sometimes they get a little mixed up.

 

[Ass prefer]

Yes Veronica, kinda been using the nickname they gave her in game (keeps me from accidently typing in Victoria also). Too many stories and characters, sometimes they get a little mixed up.

But the text says that she has already drugged him and used this moment is happening further in the game and Not at the beginning? maybe I don't understand something. Are you talking about the moment where we evaluate Veronica and Lucy in the Caitlin office?

 

[TD1900]

maybe I don't understand something. Are you talking about the moment where we evaluate Veronica and Lucy in the Caitlin office?

The perfume is introduced in the prologue. First in the limousine meeting with Kathleen, and subsequently during the Lucy x Veronica office scene.

 

[Ozymandias037]

I think in an ideal world we are equals and there's mutual respect, but I feel wherever sex work is involved there's always some exploitation, basically what MC says to Hana. I don't think such an establishment could really work completely fairly, and a lot of that is due to the nature of the patrons - there's a lot of assholes out there, way too many, and even if it's all saints in management if you're a business you can't just do business with respectful, nice guys and people will regularly get hurt. People are individuals, there's various motivations and I'm sure there's all kinds of ways people justify selling their bodies (literally or figuratively) and some of those are more sound than others. However I believe equality and mutual respect can only really happen when there's no valuable money (or favour) exchanged, otherwise it's hard to avoid some level of subordination.

About misogyny, the most unrealistic, and unfair part for me is the one that makes these things work - there's this big dick individual that performs outstanding in everything basically, and literally all women fall for him. There's a progression just to make it feel more natural but it's just more or less a linear and predictable progression. It does kind of portrey women as pretty simple individuals, you do what you do and they will fall for you there's often some level of resistance but it basically always is superficial and/or temporary, just a mask you need to get through and it doesn't feel hard, maybe somewhat time consuming (well.. realistically.. a week or two, that's very little?).
Secondly I'm not sure and I would be curious what women think - the seemingly logical motivations and explanations these women have to explain why they are there willingly seem very convenient, feels like to soothe our conscience. Can't help but think in RL a lot of prostitues have similar motivations (povery, and/or manipulated by some asshole) and that can be kind of off-putting to me. Staying at the RL example, looking just at the ethnicities seems to confirm this largely nd there's a lot that you don't see at first sight.
These stories are made for men, probably by men. Was just thinking the other day how one-sided this point of view is and I'm fairly sure it's VERY. I would genuinely be curious if some teams would include a considerable woman influence in writing (50% or more), how different the story would be. Sure if guys are target audience we have to get our gratification, but how different the stories, characters, dialogues, reactions, the whole path to it would be?

You make some very good points here! I suppose there is a certain amount of misogyny in any AVN from certain perspectives, because the plot requires the LIs to actually be, yknow, LIs, and it's pretty unrealistic and fantasy-fulfilling that multiple women would fall for some random schlub of a protagonist, especially as quickly as most of these games have it happen. But that's part of the fantasy fulfillment, right? So while I am positive that some people would see misogyny there, I personally don't find that fantasy misogynistic in and of itself. Lack of realism, in my opinion, is not problematic on it's own. That's the whole point of escapism, after all.

Not that I say this to disagree with anything you said. I feel like we're probably more or less on the same page here.

To your last point, there are definitely AVNs out there that are made by women. Come Home is the first example that comes into my head, but there are a ton of others as well. Some of them turn the expected tropes on their heads and become about humiliating their protagonists or "punishing" the player for seeking out an AVN by giving "bad" endings or plot results for the player's choices, but all in all I have found that the biggest difference in the ones that I've played is that many of the games written by women have more diverse casts of LIs and sometimes non-straight romance options. But they still know their audience, so there usually isn't any forced non-straight or non-cis content. Except, of course, for the games designed around that content, but that's a whole other genre IMO.

Yea, PC portrays misogyny, but certainly the message of the game isn't misogynistic. In my playthroughs, that portrayal is negative and discordant with Edwin's better nature. I typed up a reply to that effect when I read Pax Draconis' comment, but it was already off-topic to be debating the weighted rating system in a game thread. To start debating the messaging of PC in another game thread , besides being rude to Jestur, would be an invitation for a mod purge. Also, if somebody played Pale Carnations and came away with the with the overview "[PC] features cruelty and humiliation towards its LIs and is generally misogynistic", then I doubt anything I could say would change their mind. I assume that they're sensitive enough about harsher themes in PC, that they can't bear to read the story deeply enough to make anything more than a snap judgement about the themes in the narrative.

I agree with all of this! In fact, my post originally started out as a reply to the comment you mention, and I didn't post it in the Ripples thread for exactly the reasons you mention. Then I was going to send it to Pax Draconis as a PM, but I decided against that also because it felt extra weird to send such a long wall of text in rsponse to a single casually dropped sentence, lol. So I ended up coming to post it here, because this is probably a better place to get the discussion I wanted in the first place

As for your answers to my questions, I think I agree with you pretty closely (but not completely) on all points. I wasn't so much asking those questions myself as pointing out that the story of PC forces the player to think about those things. Or at least, it does if one cares to look at all beyond the surface-level "fap material + story" that makes up any AVN. And I just think it's really cool and interesting how much deeper one can dive and how thought-provoking the game is, if we only look.

Any idiot (okay, not ANY idiot, but humor me) can make a porn game. Better creators can make games with compelling stories and fleshed-out characters that make the player care. But to have a game that forces us to feel a certain way or to think about certain things and ask questions of ourselves... IMO that's the mark of a great game, regardless of genre, and truly great writing, regardless of the form it takes. It sounds pretentious af for me to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway: Pale Carnations is just another example that games can be Actual Art in the highbrow sense usually reserved for film, theater, etc.

I agree. I read PC as anti-misogynist, among many other things.
And now that you mention it, perhaps it's a sneaky attempt to instill some empathetic perspectives into readers who may have anti-feminist proclivities. Wait! Are TD and GIL grooming misogynists into feminists! Sound the alarm! Retreat to 4chan, bros! We need to regroup against this insidious threat!

Oh crap, did I accidentally blow the lid off a sneaky subversive plot to humanize the manosphere types? Um. Shit. Uhhhhhhh, let's all pretend I didn't say anything and maybe they won't notice.

 

[Phase_01]

She's spunky alright.

Spoiler: Kitty Kat's full of spunk

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Goddamn maybe I should do the Kathleen route.

 

[Biscardone]

Oh crap, did I accidentally blow the lid off a sneaky subversive plot to humanize the manosphere types? Um. Shit. Uhhhhhhh, let's all pretend I didn't say anything and maybe they won't notice.

Well, TD and GIL are clearly woke, and they have taken a long and convoluted route to emasculate the player, and ultimately make frogs gay. Clear as day.

No, but seriously, a porn game can arouse you. If the story is well written, it can entertain you. But the story of Pale Carnation is also likely to make you think; maybe even stimulate some self reflection. If this isn't the best compliment you can attribute to a writer (of a porn game, of all things!), I don't know what is.
And while I may be derailing a bit, I think one of the clearest proofs of that is the fact that people are arguing about the game's themes from both sides of the barricades, so to speak. A writer supporting a specific thesis is easily spotted, in my opinion. But when people have to interpret the story, and inject their view of the world in the discussion, that's likely the sign that the writer has struck deep. It may be argued that some themes are portrayed only for shock value, but that's not something I read in Pale Carnations: at the risk of sounding like a broken record, to me humanity and empathy shine through the ugly folds of the story.

Not to detract from PC's artistic merit, of course. Pale Carnation is a great blend of two arts. One of the best examples on this site, for sure.

 

[Flowing Thought]

Clearly the JULIA of our times.
For my part, I am all for more Vicky porno because it pays in dividends with more Rosalind scenes.

I think JULIA is the JULIA of our times, no? She can be the JULIA of her times.

 

[Phase_01]

gahdamn how many scenes has she done?

I hope we get a large Pale Carnations DLC one day with all her full scenes

 

[Ottoeight]

All right, who is this JULIA, anyway?

 

[strangelandQQ]

Either they mean the famous Japanese porn star JULIA with several hundred scenes in her career, or it's some kind of inside joke.

 

[Ottoeight]

Either they mean the famous Japanese porn star JULIA with several hundred scenes in her career, or it's some kind of inside joke.

I know some Yurias, never heard of Julias.