VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[VicValenn]

Hells nah, NSFW Solitaire ftw. Its default set, of course.

And you don't shape her and her worldviews, what kind of fucked up manipulative shit is that?

Tried to fix that for you, no need to thank me, I'm just that kind and helpful.

I don’t mean this in a toxic, manipulative way, although a manipulative MC is a valid playstyle.
A good, present, and caring partner will influence many of your thoughts and steer you away from bad ideas. This is common sense. Not all relationships work this way, but most do.

Hannah is a young adult who, after agreeing with her father and accepting the idea of being one of the potential owners of the club, has all sorts of powerful people trying to get a piece of her mind. The MC can shield her from bad influences (he did this when he took her away from Kathleen and August, who were competing for her attention). She also asked the MC if she made the right choice in punishing one of the club’s employees for not showing up for work (the MC’s opinion is directly influencing her worldview).

To say that MC and Rose have a wholesome relationship is definitely a choice.
I consider Rose to be a good woman. All things considered, she cares about her daughter's well-being the most and that's what drive her. However, she is not absolved of her sins. She is an older woman, manipulative towards MC, and has a history of being this way before carnation. Even if we take away the fact that their relationship is tied to sexual favors, the relationship becomes quite convoluted because of MC's own Oedipus complex.
The last update was all about this, with the MC having flashbacks to the video of his mother in juxtaposition with his relationship with Rose. It shows how much the videos affected him personally and still affect his character and his sex life. This, in my opinion, is what makes the writing in this game so good. The MC can choose to overcome his trauma and be a better person or give in to his depravity. There isn't a wrong choice.

That said, go pray and ask for forgiveness at the Church of Hannah. You sinful, MILF-loving, filthy person.

 

[Silegy]

What do you mean? Rose has admitted to Edwin herself she'd been scamming old folks out of their money, together with her husband. And she is taking advantage of MC's nature (either as a good guy willing to help her for free, or a chump who can be convinced with some sex) to effectively try to rig the competition. There're three participants in this contest, but she's the only one who approached Edwin in this manner.

It's not paranoia when it's cold hard facts.

Oh. Good, I thought you were cynical and paranoid, you are just horribly wrong.

And she is taking advantage of MC's nature (either as a good guy willing to help her for free, or a chump who can be convinced with some sex) to effectively try to rig the competition.

Granted, I did not fully appreciate that she's the only carnation who did this, as "rigging the competition" is the core mechanic of this game. But 1) she is not taking advantage of MC-kun, she simply offered him a trade and 2) it just goes to show to what lengths she's willing to go for her daughter. A recurring theme in this game btw.

she'd been scamming old folks out of their money, together with her husband

Way to weaponise a remorseful, intimate confession against somebody. Are you a woman?
My snide quips aside, I'm afraid you misunderstood this bit about her life, or rather didn't connect it with with the rest of what we know. The core of her identity is a combination of determination to be the wife and the mother, while also being weak-willed, unable to stand up for herself. She's the one who ends up being taken advantage of, not the other way around. It's not just the shady shit her husband pulled her into, be it his scam business and his other ventures or the debt he straddled her with. He got her to drop out of college. It's even the small things, like him pretending he cannot even cook an egg throughout their marriage.

Like, I could kill my whole evening going just over this conversation from the last update. Also, I guess this is where I'm the one speaking from experience, having been intimate with such women previously.

 

[Khan merry]

Hells nah, NSFW Solitaire ftw. Its default set, of course.

I love the logic of nsfw solitaire, "This simple card game is fun and all hmm... But it lacks boobs and ass" lol.

 

[Silegy]

I don’t mean this in a toxic, manipulative way, although a manipulative MC is a valid playstyle.
A good, present, and caring partner will influence many of your thoughts and steer you away from bad ideas. This is common sense. Not all relationships work this way, but most do.

I know, sorry, that was a joke.

To say that MC and Rose have a wholesome relationship is definitely a choice.
I consider Rose to be a good woman. All things considered, she cares about her daughter's well-being the most and that's what drive her. However, she is not absolved of her sins. She is an older woman, manipulative towards MC, and has a history of being this way before carnation. Even if we take away the fact that their relationship is tied to sexual favors, the relationship becomes quite convoluted because of MC's own Oedipus complex.

I have touched on most of this above, but I have to ask, do you really believe her to be some machiavellian manipulator? Her, a woman who has never had a voice all throughout her life, between her childhood in a religious family and her terrible choice of a shitbag husband? The relationship starts as a very straightforward transaction, nothing manipulative about it. And if you so choose to make it more intimate, do you really believe it's all just cold calculation from her? Not only does that seem highly doubtful to me, there's also the technical side of things where she is a love interest in a video game.

This, in my opinion, is what makes the writing in this game so good.

Funnily enough, this is what I find to be the single weakest aspect of the writing and the game overall. This oversimplified take on Oedipus complex that basically goes "oh look, a hot, young, big-breasted mother who spreads her legs, just like my mom, I need to fuck her because Freud told me I gotta want to fuck my mom." Like, that's not even remotely what Freud was talking about, not even in the most oversimplified manner.

Also, as a side not, I do take issue with people calling her an "older woman", which is a phrase for women like 50+, while Rose is in her early 30s. (As she dropped out of college to have a kid who is like what, around 12-14?)


EDIT:

I love the logic of nsfw solitaire, "This simple card game is fun and all hmm... But it lacks boobs and ass" lol.

I'm a simple man. I like solitaire and I like naked women. Just like I like my puzzles and other such games with an extra serving of tits and holes.

 

[ffive]

1) she is not taking advantage of MC-kun, she simply offered him a trade

Why do you think Rose didn't "simply offer" this exact same trade to Ian, when he has as much influence on the result of the competition? Because she has correctly identified MC as potentially susceptible mark who could be swayed either by a sob story or some sex.

Way to weaponise a remorseful, intimate confession against somebody. Are you a woman?
My snide quips aside, I'm afraid you misunderstood this bit about her life, or rather didn't connect it with with the rest of what we know. The core of her identity is a combination of determination to be the wife and the mother, while also being weak-willed, unable to stand up for herself. She's the one who ends up being taken advantage of, not the other way around. It's not just the shady shit her husband pulled her into, be it his scam business and his other ventures or the debt he straddled her with. He got her to drop out of college. It's even the small things, like him pretending he cannot even cook an egg throughout their marriage.

Don't forget, this is in context of discussing whether Rose is "the most wholesome RO". It doesn't matter if Rose is doing shit "because she's just so weak willed, the poor thing". Lacking moral backbone, especially when it leads to ruining lives of other people, because this is easier than taking a stand against your shit of a husband, it simply means as far as wholesomeness goes Rose's is dubious at best.

 

[VicValenn]

I have touched on most of this above, but I have to ask, do you really believe her to be some machiavellian manipulator? Her, a woman who has never had a voice all throughout her life, between her childhood in a religious family and her shitbag husband? The relationship starts as a very straightforward transaction, nothing manipulative about it. And if you so choose to make it more intimate, do you really believe it's all just cold calculation from her? Not only does that seem highly doubtful to me, there's also the technical side of things where she is a love interest in a video game.

Rosalind doesn't have the defining characteristic of being manipulative, no. Lol. As you pointed out, she has a frail personality, which is evident in her passivity regarding her abusive relationship with her husband and her life choices in general.
This doesn't mean she isn't capable of manipulating someone for her own benefit. That's what she did with MC. Could their relationship evolve into something more? Of course, it seems like it's geared towards that. But her first impression was about her using her appeal to win MC's favor.

I do take issue with people calling her an "older woman", which is a phrase for women like 50+, while Rose is in her early 30s

I can't answer for other people in this thread. But when I said "older woman", I meant that she is a middle-aged woman with more significant life experience compared to a young freshman who is just starting his adult life. Even if the MC is wise beyond his years, he can only have so much experience.

Funnily enough, this is what I find to be the single weakest aspect of the writing and the game overall. This oversimplified take on Oedipus complex that basically goes "oh look, a hot, young, big-breasted mother who spreads her legs, just like my mom, I need to fuck her because Freud told me I gotta want to fuck my mom." Like, that's not even remotely what Freud was talking about, not even in the most oversimplified manner.

I think this is where we can agree to disagree. I don't see this as a simplified way of portraying MC's complex and how this affect his relationship with Rose.
I'll quote what you said in another post: "I'm afraid you misunderstood this bit about her life, or rather didn't connect it with with the rest of what we know. The core of her identity is a combination of determination to be the wife and the mother, while also being weak-willed, unable to stand up for herself."
Aside from being weak-willed (Victoria is a very strong-willed person), this is Victoria right there. She sacrificed her own morals to give her child a better, more comfortable life. It's not about big tits, it's not about being solely older, or spreading her legs. It's about the sacrifices they made, for who they made, the why, and the path they chose.
Edwin, (MC), recognizes this and can't help but admire Rose, as he sees a clear resemblance to his own mother. What makes this even more complex is that watching his mother's videos was a moment of sexual awakening for him, a morbidly curious teenager. So yeah, shit is fucked. I wouldn't say it's an cheap element of this story by any means. But I respect your opinions.

 

[ffive]

Rosalind doesn't have the defining characteristic of being manipulative, no. Lol. As you pointed out, she has a frail personality, which is evident in her passivity regarding her abusive relationship with her husband and her life choices in general.

Edwin notes multiple times in the game that Rose is knowingly and purposefully telling him the things he wants to hear, in order to keep their "cooperation" going. One could in fact go as far as to point to her presenting herself as "nothing but a dumb, naive, meek and weak housewife" as part of this very manipulation, and something a number of people both in game and here is apparently falling for.

To clarify, i'm not saying Rose is malicious in her manipulations. Only that she's far more capable of it than some people give her credit for. You don't scam people for years (no matter if out of your own volition or to appease your husband) without picking up at least a few tricks and better understanding of how to manipulate people.

 

[Silegy]

Don't forget, this is in context of discussing whether Rose is "the most wholesome RO".

No, the context was me jokingly using somebody else's post to talk up my favourite LI, which you for some reason decided to use as an invitation to depict her as a horrible and manipulative person. Which I guess I should have been smarter than to entertain any follow-up.

You don't scam people for years

A couple of months, as far as Rose said, before her husband got into different shady shit. We don't actually know what shady shit. She could have been a completely honest drug dealer!

I think this is where we can agree to disagree.

Edwin, (MC), recognizes this and can't help but admire Rose, as he sees a clear resemblance to his own mother. What makes this even more complex is that watching his mother's videos was a moment of sexual awakening for him, a morbidly curious teenager. So yeah, shit is fucked. I wouldn't say it's an cheap element of this story by any means. But I respect your opinions.

I think partially.
I understand the parallels that you appreciate about it and it's not that I don't hate the whole thing. It does add a dimension, sure. I wouldn't call it a cheap element, rather more of a poor execution. This complaint of mine is specifically about previous episodes, especially early on in the game, where Edwin's thoughts were really quite explicitly "MILF with big tits, how my mom-like."

 

[ffive]

No, the context was me jokingly using somebody else's post to talk up my favourite LI, which you for some reason decided to use as an invitation to depict her as a horrible and manipulative person. Which I guess I should have been smarter than to entertain any follow-up.

You think i was depicting her as a horrible person? That's a mistake on your part then, i was only pointing out that she's at best morally grey character. I.e. someone not really suited for the label of "the most wholesome RO", that you've decided Rose has deserved as part of your "humorous fix", and which i've brought up specifically because i was addressing that part.

I can't help if you'd rather attack a strawman instead of what i think was pretty clear statement, but i also don't see much value in continuing this back and forth, if that's the apparent case.

 

[Silegy]

You think i was depicting her as a horrible person? That's a mistake on your part then

Don't be disingenuous. You described her as a con woman taking advantage of Edwin.

More importantly, I decided to go and read through the scene again and there's one important detail I somehow forgot and seemingly you and the others here have also forgot or missed. It is hinted that Rose's husband* isn't just a douchebag, but also an abusive drunk. In which case she's an outright victim, no cons, no greyness.


*Could be her husband and/or either of her parents, but in the context of the story it would make a lot of sense to be the husband. I suppose we'll learn more at some later point.

 

[VicValenn]

Damn, all I was doing was spreading the word about our goth maiden, Saint Hannah, and I accidentally caused a one page war on this thread. I will ask for guidance and pray for all of your souls. May Hannah bless your deviant and quarrelsome hearts.

 

[John Michael Van]

I have no idea what you are talking about, he's clearly playing Balatro, look closer .
View attachment 4947938

Master of PS! Ha ha!

 

[alex13_zen]

Damn, all I was doing was spreading the word about our goth maiden, Saint Hannah, and I accidentally caused a one page war on this thread. I will ask for guidance and pray for all of your souls. May Hannah bless your deviant and quarrelsome hearts.

Just curious, why don't you use her in-game name Hana?

 

[VicValenn]

Just curious, why don't you use her in-game name Hana?

The last time I played this game was about 6 months ago. So, my faulty brain took over and replaced her name with what I thought was her real name, lol. It doesn't help that Hannah is a much more common western name. Thanks for correcting me.

I'll be playing from the start again today and see what else I might be misremembering and what new insights I can gain from this story.

 

[Maccabbee]

The last time I played this game was about 6 months ago. So, my faulty brain took over and replaced her name with what I thought was her real name, lol. It doesn't help that Hannah is a much more common western name. Thanks for correcting me.

I'll be playing from the start again today and see what else I might be misremembering and what new insights I can gain from this story.

Hana as spelled is a (among others, I'm sure) Japanese name, female, meaning "flower."

 

[se20299]

We can debate Edwin's mommy issues all day, but it's a fact that Rosalind targets Edwin because she percieves him to be soft and naive. She knows Ian would've told her to kick rocks, and she only approaches Edwin if he doesn't take advantage of her at the "audition", or if he apologizes after the fact. In fact, the only way to access the Full Deal route is to display weakness at the start and not go full asshole, despite Full Deal being one of the darker routes in the game.

So she's not just begging for help from anyone who will listen, she exclusively targets Edwin if she thinks she can manipulate him with her sob story and sex. I'm not calling her a bad person, but she doesn't try to pull this shit with anyone else, because she knows it wouldn't fly. If she thought she could've gotten Ian to give her a leg up, she would've tried.

It just so happens that Edwin's own mommy issues and past struggles make him susceptible to Rose's tactics, and extremely sympathetic to her plight, which is a mirror to his and Vicky's struggles.

 

[ffive]

Don't be disingenuous. You described her as a con woman taking advantage of Edwin.

Yes, i did. And i've said those actions stand in conflict with her alleged position as "the most wholesome RO".

I have not said anywhere that made her a horrible person. There's lot of room between horrible and the most wholesome, for anyone who isn't thinking in purely black and white terms where you can apparently only be one or the other.

So please, let's leave it at that and take your strawman with you.

More importantly, I decided to go and read through the scene again and there's one important detail I somehow forgot and seemingly you and the others here have also forgot or missed. It is hinted that Rose's husband* isn't just a douchebag, but also an abusive drunk. In which case she's an outright victim, no cons, no greyness.

As long as Rose has participated in his scams she's an accomplice, not a victim. The actual victims are people who were scammed by Rose's husband and Rose herself.

 

[ffive]

Hana as spelled is a (among others, I'm sure) Japanese name

Yup, for this matter so is Mina.

 

[UmbralKnight]

NSFW Solitaire ?
i can't even play regular solitaire

 

[UmbralKnight]

you came so close to discovering her true intentions
ROSE is LITERALLY playing a character just like felicia but unlike felicia who LOVES being the trophy wife most of the time.
Rose doesn't like role she is forced to play.
her mask slips up from time to time,
like when she comes to the MC's apartment to make a secret deal
she is definitively not a bad person but she is far from the act she puts up of being a good wholesome MILF who genuinely loves the MC.
if anything rose would be the most likely candidate in the group to betray other girls and make a secret deal with kathy or literally anyone else in the club to make sure she wins.