VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Turret]

While I do enjoy most sex scenes the punishment round almost had me throw up. also the exploitation of all the girls is so fucked. I wouldn't be as turned off if it was a everyone gets a reward kinda thing or the club specifically screened for girls who are into it, but this just felt uncomfortable while playing it also i cant believe that there is still a romance tag on this. The consent is dubious at best in so many scenes. If there was a version of this without the money coercion bit id play the hell out of it but right now it just feels dirty to play this. Which is a shame because there is some real talent with the writing, character design and the models but i cant enjoy it because everytime it gets me going im reminded that the women dont do this out of their free will. If you ever release something were the girls actually want to participate I'd be happy to play that bu this is crossing a line for me.

Hi! You made the mistake of seeing "Pale Carnations" as a pure porn game. It isn´t, PC is more a crime noir story (in colour) with erotic/sexy elements. In the story you have an illegal brothel (at least in the US state where PC takes place, where I live it would be legal), human trafficking, unsanctioned medical experiments, a main NPC who has regular "Make him an offer he cannot refuse" moments, the orchestrator of the yearly "games" is a full-blooded sadist, we have missing persons and at least one murder or execution taking place.
In true noir fashion, the game also has flawed characters with their backstories riddled with secrets and our hero is smack in the middle of it. I enjoy PC as a crime story and the interactions/events outside the "games" a lot more than Kath´s fucked up "fun".

 

[TD1900]

While I do enjoy most sex scenes the punishment round almost had me throw up. also the exploitation of all the girls is so fucked. I wouldn't be as turned off if it was a everyone gets a reward kinda thing or the club specifically screened for girls who are into it, but this just felt uncomfortable while playing it also i cant believe that there is still a romance tag on this. The consent is dubious at best in so many scenes. If there was a version of this without the money coercion bit id play the hell out of it but right now it just feels dirty to play this. Which is a shame because there is some real talent with the writing, character design and the models but i cant enjoy it because everytime it gets me going im reminded that the women dont do this out of their free will. If you ever release something were the girls actually want to participate I'd be happy to play that bu this is crossing a line for me.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from your conclusion. The club is run by awful people taking advantage of desperate women and the text rarely lets the player forget it. The scenario is icky and you shouldn't play anything you don't find value in.

HOWEVER, I do contend this:

The Carnations may be in dire straits, but I just don't see how you can say they're not consenting to the events. They're not being coerced to participate in the exhibitions by anything other than their own personal circumstances and values. It is exploitation, but... that's what the world is built on, isn't it? People who willingly demean themselves, perform a job they hate for the need of money, or otherwise just sell themselves short. I mean shit, retail is soul crushing and coal mining will destroy your body. Yet, I don't think anyone will contend those jobs are done absent of free will. Company towns aside.

Again, that doesn't make it any less icky, but I think it's a distinction worth talking about as free will and exploitation are themes the scenario are built on. Not only with the Carnations, but with Edwin and Hana as well.

 

[GokutheG]

I'm not trying to dissuade you from your conclusion. The club is run by awful people taking advantage of desperate women and the text rarely lets the player forget it. The scenario is icky and you shouldn't play anything you don't find value in.

HOWEVER, I do contend this:

The Carnations may be in dire straits, but I just don't see how you can say they're not consenting to the events. They're not being coerced to participate in the exhibitions by anything other than their own personal circumstances and values. It is exploitation, but... that's what the world is built on, isn't it? People who willingly demean themselves, perform a job they hate for the need of money, or otherwise just sell themselves short. I mean shit, retail is soul crushing and coal mining will destroy your body. Yet, I don't think anyone will contend those jobs are done absent of free will. Company towns aside.

Again, that doesn't make it any less icky, but I think it's a distinction worth talking about as free will and exploitation are themes the scenario are built on. Not only with the Carnations, but with Edwin and Hana as well.

The only one who this argument feels like it could work for is Felicia. The game does feel like some Harvey Weinstein shit.

 

[ffive]

The main word here is independent. It doesn't fit with other two. Do you realize that most of the history apart from last 50 years or so people lived in very patriarchal communities? In that kind of environment, if you aren't on the top you aren't independent.

Sigh. This is the meaning of "independence" in the context of discussion we were having:

What Felicia actually wants is to get sufficiently comfortable, wealthy life where she's independent, instead of completely depending on wealth and whims of a rich asshole who picked her for his trophy wife.

Note the part after "instead". No, even 50 years ago (which is, incidentally, fucking 1970s) you didn't have to be the ruler of the world in order to be able to live without a husband and have your own money and a place to live. It is far less of an achievement than you seem to believe it was.

So, where does Felicia fit in? she sacrificed her independence for "sufficiently comfortable, wealthy". You are running in circles.

What circles? Felicia had her wealth in form of allowance and a comfortable place to live provided by her husband, and now she wants to be able to support her own existence. What is "running in crcles" about it?

Realistically, if Felicia can get in the club as a member, then all she needs is to make few hundred thousand of dollars from rich fucks who don't even consider this kind of money as real expenditure. You think she'll have soooo much difficulty convincing a few of them to drop 50-100k on her for what she can provide them with? Don't forget, Chuck has decides to fund Edwin's medical studies (that's ~60k/year) basically on a whim, because his favorite nephew wanted his friend to work with him.

 

[GokutheG]

Sigh. This is the meaning of "independence" in the context of discussion we were having:

Note the part after "instead". No, even 50 years ago (which is, incidentally, fucking 1970s) you didn't have to be the ruler of the world in order to be able to live without a husband and have your own money and a place to live. It is far less of an achievement than you seem to believe it was.


What circles? Felicia had her wealth in form of allowance and a comfortable place to live provided by her husband, and now she wants to be able to support her own existence. What is "running in crcles" about it?

Realistically, if Felicia can get in the club as a member, then all she needs is to make few hundred thousand of dollars from rich fucks who don't even consider this kind of money as real expenditure. You think she'll have soooo much difficulty convincing a few of them to drop 50-100k on her for what she can provide them with? Don't forget, Chuck has decides to fund Edwin's medical studies (that's ~60k/year) basically on a whim, because his favorite nephew wanted his friend to work with him.

Even if she wins the membership would the others even respect her enough to pay for whatever talents she has?

 

[dolfe67]

Even if she wins the membership would the others even respect her enough to pay for whatever talents she has?

Not all of them for sure, but only a few is enough. That's the bet she made.

 

[Turret]

Even if she wins the membership would the others even respect her enough to pay for whatever talents she has?

(sigh) While respect is nice and helpful, it is not needed for business transactions. If Felcia´s secret knowledge is solid, she WILL get what she wants. There are enough members who will respect her and even among those not respecting her enough will be after the perks and advantages Felicia can bring them.

 

[-Moon]

While I do enjoy most sex scenes the punishment round almost had me throw up. also the exploitation of all the girls is so fucked. I wouldn't be as turned off if it was a everyone gets a reward kinda thing or the club specifically screened for girls who are into it, but this just felt uncomfortable while playing it also i cant believe that there is still a romance tag on this. The consent is dubious at best in so many scenes. If there was a version of this without the money coercion bit id play the hell out of it but right now it just feels dirty to play this. Which is a shame because there is some real talent with the writing, character design and the models but i cant enjoy it because everytime it gets me going im reminded that the women dont do this out of their free will. If you ever release something were the girls actually want to participate I'd be happy to play that bu this is crossing a line for me.

Yikes, just seen this post, I'm also not really sure this is my stuff, but I still find some pleasure discovering a great story (because the writing is so far excellent).

I'm ok with the fact that the situation can be really grim, but without spoiling too much, is MC at least trying to "fix things" ? Or he's also a lost soul in a sea of bad guys?
In this case maybe this game is not for me as well. Stuff can be dark, but in order to maintain my suspension of disbelief I don't really want to play as a bad guy, I don't find joy in it [no kink shaming tho, you do you].

Can you guys tell me if I should stop playing or there's hope in this world? (or at least MC is not paved with bad intentions)

 

[GokutheG]

I maybe misrembering or interperiting, Samson sabataged Veronica's business with bad contracts/business model preying on her naivite on buisness to coerce into a situation where the carnation club was a last resort. Each time she thought about dropping out she is reminded she'll lose the chance at money and the implications of that with her personal life. Thats forcing someone to do something against thier own will, aka coecersion. Nothing about that is "willingly."

Lets my best friend owns subscribstar and Pale Carnations brings more eyes to the platform. I buy Patreon and give Jeff and Mutt the boot as a favor to best friend for whatever reason. Thats coesering you to make a move to Subscribstar. Your not "willingly" dumping one revenue stream for a lesser one. You were forced unknowingly or not.

Yeah I forgot that a member used his money and influence to sabotage a woman's buisness to the point where the club was her last resort just for his sick pleasure. Can't really argue things are completely consensual at that point and I doubt he's the only person to pull a stunt like this.

 

[GokutheG]

Yikes, just seen this post, I'm also not really sure this is my stuff, but I still find some pleasure discovering a great story (because the writing is so far excellent).

I'm ok with the fact that the situation can be really grim, but without spoiling too much, is MC at least trying to "fix things" ? Or he's also a lost soul in a sea of bad guys?
In this case maybe this game is not for me as well. Stuff can be dark, but in order to maintain my suspension of disbelief I don't really want to play as a bad guy, I don't find joy in it [no kink shaming tho, you do you].

Can you guys tell me if I should stop playing or there's hope in this world? (or at least MC is not paved with bad intentions)

Yeah that's why I enjoy this game because you can play it as the mc trying to help the girls get through the situation as best he can.

 

[dolfe67]

I maybe misrembering or interperiting, Samson sabataged Veronica's business with bad contracts/business model preying on her naivite on buisness to coerce into a situation where the carnation club was a last resort. Each time she thought about dropping out she is reminded she'll lose the chance at money and the implications of that with her personal life. Thats forcing someone to do something against thier own will, aka coecersion. Nothing about that is "willingly."

Lets my best friend owns subscribstar and Pale Carnations brings more eyes to the platform. I buy Patreon and give Jeff and Mutt the boot as a favor to best friend for whatever reason. Thats coesering you to make a move to Subscribstar. Your not "willingly" dumping one revenue stream for a lesser one. You were forced unknowingly or not.

Yes Samson sabotaged Veronica's business but she could have taken the loss and do something else, work for someone if she can't be independent. But no she has too much pride.

Yikes, just seen this post, I'm also not really sure this is my stuff, but I still find some pleasure discovering a great story (because the writing is so far excellent).

I'm ok with the fact that the situation can be really grim, but without spoiling too much, is MC at least trying to "fix things" ? Or he's also a lost soul in a sea of bad guys?
In this case maybe this game is not for me as well. Stuff can be dark, but in order to maintain my suspension of disbelief I don't really want to play as a bad guy, I don't find joy in it [no kink shaming tho, you do you].

Can you guys tell me if I should stop playing or there's hope in this world? (or at least MC is not paved with bad intentions)

Yes you can play as a nice romantic guy, there is a lot of wholesome moments.

 

[GokutheG]

Yes Samson sabotaged Veronica's business but she could have taken the loss and do something else, work for someone if she can't be independent. But no she has too much pride.


Yes you can play as a nice romantic guy, there is a lot of wholesome moments.

That argument may hold weight if a member of the club didn't use his power to actively sabotage her efforts in order to fuck her.

 

[maroder]

That argument may hold weight if a member of the club didn't use his power to actively sabotage her efforts in order to fuck her.

even if veronica wins and gets money her business is still failing and same situation will happen again in few months. she knows it she is just stubborn and cant accept defeat

 

[maroder]

And he knew of her pride and manipulated the situation where Samson calculated Veronica would go to the Club as a last resort. Yeah, she may not be aware she is getting played because of her naivite or ego. She was still COERCED into a situation. She didnt just clap her hands and willingly go to the club and decide to drink a goblet of cum because she wanted to get off on some freaky shit while having a chance to win a bag of cash.

point still stands veronic could have not done that. declared her bussnes bankrupt and walked away she did not do it. yes samson is fuking her over but decision to participate in competition was still veronicas choice.

 

[ffive]

She was still COERCED into a situation.

Coercion generally is understood to involve force, threats or at the very least, intimidation. Veronica was manipulated into the situation, but the decision to choose this option instead of others she's had available was still hers.

 

[Turret]

Yikes, just seen this post, I'm also not really sure this is my stuff, but I still find some pleasure discovering a great story (because the writing is so far excellent).

I'm ok with the fact that the situation can be really grim, but without spoiling too much, is MC at least trying to "fix things" ? Or he's also a lost soul in a sea of bad guys?
In this case maybe this game is not for me as well. Stuff can be dark, but in order to maintain my suspension of disbelief I don't really want to play as a bad guy, I don't find joy in it [no kink shaming tho, you do you].

Can you guys tell me if I should stop playing or there's hope in this world? (or at least MC is not paved with bad intentions)

Just read my earlier post (nr.18,314) for a rough overview. You can play our hero as a nice guy, trying to help everyone, you can be a nice guy, who helps where his interests lie and let some things be as they are or you can play as n a..., following Kath´s footsteps as her junior sadist.

That argument may hold weight if a member of the club didn't use his power to actively sabotage her efforts in order to fuck her.

The situation is more messy than you say. Samson is crushing hard on Veronika, but since she is far more lesbian leaning than hetero, he has few chances. To get her, he cooked up his plan and sabotaged her gym. Which actually was not so difficult, since it already was in dangerous waters before Samson met Veronika.
Veronika could also just walk away, start anew and life her dream! Her situation is not that bad, but Samson recognized her mule-like stubborness and used it against her.

 

[ffive]

Which is why I brought up the threats of losing out on a chance to win when Carnations were getting skittish. Kathleen is well aware of every carnations situation and used it against them when needed to keep them in line.

That’s intimidation, a threat, force, and coercion.

But that is after Veronica has made her decision to participate in the contest, a decision she was not coerced into. These are two different things, and people are talking about that initial decision of hers.

And honestly, the worst threat Kat has is "well you won't win" which does not prevent Veronica from pursuing those other solutions, should she actually quit. At this point she's largely falling for the sunk cost fallacy.

 

[maroder]

Which is why I brought up the threats of losing out on a chance to win when Carnations were getting skittish. Kathleen is well aware of every carnations situation and used it against them when needed to keep them in line.

That’s intimidation, a threat, force, and coercion.

veronika can walk out any time and no one will be able to stop her. my boss saying to me that if i don't show up at work im fired is not abnormal.

Which actually was not so difficult, since it already was in dangerous waters before Samson met Veronika.

if i rember right samson forced veronicas master to sell her gym without giving her information that it was already failing

 

[maroder]

No. Samson pushed her to join the club using her own personality flaws against her. That’s not willingly joining when a circumstances push you into a certain direction when the lively hood is on the line. Yes, Veronica was completely unaware. Samson knew the consequences.

Legal Definitioncoercion. noun. co·er·cion kō-ˈər-zhən, -shən. : the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will.

yes and there is no fear of violence or reprisal so by your definition its cant be considered that. telling veronicaa that if she wont get money she will lose business is NOT violence or reprisal that's just how capitalism works.

if i dont pay my bills i will be evicted from house. landlord saying that to me is not coercion.
if i dont pay bills on my car and if im in debt it may get reposed its still not coercion.

 

[TD1900]

I maybe misrembering or interperiting, Samson sabataged Veronica's business with bad contracts/business model preying on her naivite on buisness to coerce into a situation where the carnation club was a last resort. Each time she thought about dropping out she is reminded she'll lose the chance at money and the implications of that with her personal life. Thats forcing someone to do something against thier own will, aka coecersion. Nothing about that is "willingly."

That does muddy the water, doesn't it? And, Veronica aside, using a charity to recruit a desperate Rosalind is in the same ball park. No matter how you cut it, it's a skeevy, morally bankrupt, illegal affair.

Honestly, I may have overextended with my thoughts and fallen on my face here. I actually bank on the scenario not being so clear cut, so declaring where I personally draw the line with character accountability was reactionary and argumentative. Especially when the heart of the comment was more or less "women in difficult situations ain't sexy." A lukewarm take, but yet here I am now organizing my thoughts with the predominant argument inching toward "...does anyone consent to be born?!" nonsense.

I'll take that as a sign that I should bow out and leave the hard part of making sense of my jerk off material to those more qualified.