VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Darreau91]

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

She has the hots for Mina… like all game. Why settle for generic goth daddy issue girl… when you get Mina. Open and closed.

 

[UmbralKnight]

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

you just answered your own previous question

Considering it's not only not a factor against, but even incentive for other two Carnations to seek sex with Edwin (especially Rose) why do you think it'd have opposite effect on Veronica? Do you believe her to be someone who wouldn't try to use sex as influence with someone they found physically appealing, to curry favors and/or advantage in the competition?

just for the record as i have said before i don't think she ever planned to seduce ANYONE hoping they might help her win against other girls.

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

Although, just to be a devil's advocate for a moment -- as you note, when Veronica does her video, Edwin is busy with another girl. So, even if Veronica actually seduced Ian, Edwin wouldn't see any of that and wouldn't know anything about it, unless Ian chose to brag about it afterwards.


I'm not sure if you've realized it, but this is interesting point, because Hana is far more than merely "a nice guy" -- she's even nicer than Edwin and she's a girl. One that looks quite like Mina who as we can see is very attractive to Veronica. In other words, Hana has all that you say got Edwin laid with her (a very nice personality) and none of his drawbacks (i.e. she isn't a guy, but a very pretty girl)

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

well there are 2 obvious answers
the most simple explanation is that the writer didn't want Hana to be the one who consoles Veronica after kathy brutalized her , this would obviously mean that it won't have the same impact as the MC being the only soul who helped her when was alone.

second explanation is that there is an obvious difference between being a Nice Guy and a NICEGUY.
Hana is a Nice Girl but the MC is a NICE GUY , remember both of them saw the same thing happen to Veronica and only one of them tried to help her.
trauma bonding is one hell a thing , sure Hana is a Nice Girl in the sense that she is pretty "decent human being" who tries to treat everyone same , has some level of kindness and helps people if she can but don't forget just like everyone else she did nothing but watch kathy brutalise Veroncia and even after the incident she didn't try to console her off stage when kathy wasn't there.
she just like most "normal" people there knew what happend to veronica was a horrible thing but didn't try to help fearing it could compromise her own position within the club.

meanwhile the MC is a NICEGUY
did he have ulterior motives in helping veroncia ?
maybe
was he part of the same system that led to this abuse ?
yes
but none of that mattered to her at that moment because she despertely needed some NICEGUY to tell her it was going to be all right.
light shining in darkness and all that , this is what i meant by any port in the storm previously.
do you think at that point Veronica cared about how "attractive" the MC looked ?
like i said looks alone isn't the ONLY factor for sexual attraction , in that moment she probably felt more safe in the arms of the dorky NICEGUY MC than anyone else.

 

[ename144]

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin.

I have no ide why you think this when Veronica has been very consistent that she's bi. Having a general preference for girls is just that, a general preference. If we learned that she has a thing for, say, redheads, would that mean she's never really been interested in Mina? Of course not.

Beyond that, I get the impression you're using the wrong metric for Veronica's interest in the MC as a long-term romantic partner. Sure, she's all over Mina in the gym if you introduce them, but I see nothing romantic in that; it would be a casual hookup at best. Even if Mina makes a move on our resident amazon in the latest update, it's still about sex and good feelings. Veronica isn't sharing her life's story with Mina, much less confessing to her fears that she really did ruin her marriage over a stupid gym.

But Veronica will do that with the MC if he makes the effort to connect with her. To me that says it all.

Could Veronica someday get equally close to Mina? Maybe, though I think it would be an uphill battle. But at best that would only indicate Mina could also have a potential relationship with Veronica. It wouldn't thereby invalidate the MC's potential any more than Veronica's previous marriage did.

 

[Beduin123]

Am I the only one here that doesn't care about Veronica at all?

 

[Darreau91]

well there are 2 obvious answers
the most simple explanation is that the writer didn't want Hana to be the one who consoles Veronica after kathy brutalized her , this would obviously mean that it won't have the same impact as the MC being the only soul who helped her when was alone.

second explanation is that there is an obvious difference between being a Nice Guy and a NICEGUY.
Hana is a Nice Girl but the MC is a NICE GUY , remember both of them saw the same thing happen to Veronica and only one of them tried to help her.
trauma bonding is one hell a thing , sure Hana is a Nice Girl in the sense that she is pretty "decent human being" who tries to treat everyone same , has some level of kindness and helps people if she can but don't forget just like everyone else she did nothing

Finally, someone points out Hana is the 2nd biggest p.o.s. girl in this game outside of Sophia.

She talks a sweet game. “I’m doing this for mommy.” “This place is evil with a capital E.” “We need to treat all these hoes like humans.””Dad was out ruin and now my savior.” Her actions say different, she is a nice girl.


1. The vixen seduces our dork MC with black pig tails and tattoos. Drags Edwin into her daddy issues by asking Edwin for business advice. Mrs Rebellious Preachy numb skull then can’t make the obvious decisions about the business that would benefit the abused women… after preaching how crappy it is. WEAK and indecisive.

2. Hana got blackmailed by her dad, I get it. Then proceeds to blow the hired dildo right under his nose risking everything she is crocodile tearing towards. That’s reeeallllyyy putting mommy first. SUCCUBUS.

3. Her one true love, the damn bike, worth atleast 20k. Nope won’t sell it to help cover her lovely mommy’s treatment and get out under from August quicker. 20k is a nice option have a plan B of hospice if daddy’s plan goes side ways. MATERIALISTIC HOE

4. Dyed her hair pink insulting breast cancer awareness. Her breasts appear damn healthy. It’s a slap in a face to her mom and all other women suffering a life threatening disease. EVIL, PURE SOPHIA LEVELS of EVIL.

How this “drummer,” who can’t even draw atleast 100 horny men who want to see her tits jiggle while banging drums, wins the popularity poll is beyond reasoning.

 

[Draim]

Am I the only one here that doesn't care about Veronica at all?

How about Sophie?

 

[Phase_01]

How about Sophie?

I care about the cum queen, I care about how much cum she'll get herself covered in next time she gets a scene

 

[Ottoeight]

Finally, someone points out Hana is the 2nd biggest p.o.s. girl in this game outside of Sophia.

She talks a sweet game. “I’m doing this for mommy.” “This place is evil with a capital E.” “We need to treat all these hoes like humans.””Dad was out ruin and now my savior.” Her actions say different, she is a nice girl.


1. The vixen seduces our dork MC with black pig tails and tattoos. Drags Edwin into her daddy issues by asking Edwin for business advice. Mrs Rebellious Preachy numb skull then can’t make the obvious decisions about the business that would benefit the abused women… after preaching how crappy it is. WEAK and indecisive.

2. Hana got blackmailed by her dad, I get it. Then proceeds to blow the hired dildo right under his nose risking everything she is crocodile tearing towards. That’s reeeallllyyy putting mommy first. SUCCUBUS.

3. Her one true love, the damn bike, worth atleast 20k. Nope won’t sell it to help cover her lovely mommy’s treatment and get out under from August quicker. 20k is a nice option have a plan B of hospice if daddy’s plan goes side ways. MATERIALISTIC HOE

4. Dyed her hair pink insulting breast cancer awareness. Her breasts appear damn healthy. It’s a slap in a face to her mom and all other women suffering a life threatening disease. EVIL, PURE SOPHIA LEVELS of EVIL.

How this “drummer,” who can’t even draw atleast 100 horny men who want to see her tits jiggle while banging drums, wins the popularity poll is beyond reasoning.

Bruh, either you are trolling us or you are totally out of your mind:

I have no clue of why you think Hana is a point-of-sale girl: we never saw her asking for your card while showing her credit card reader. We never saw her with a barcode scanner in her hands as well.

 

[ffive]

I have no ide why you think this when Veronica has been very consistent that she's bi.

I think this because this is what Veronica has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the game, as opposed to acting like a person with equal preference towards both sexes, which is what people normally picture when they say someone is bi. It seems to me that people are overblowing this notion that "she is bi" when in reality, if you assigned a scale to the level of interest in physical features of guys and girls, one would be around 1 and the other around 5. The fact it's supposedly just feminine guys that can get her interested, and even then it's a rare occurrence, it's telling.

The thing is, if your interest in a partner is ever, at best, lukewarm, because most of their features just don't turn you on, then the prospects of a long-term relationship that doesn't end when a person shows up who ticks all your boxes as opposed to just a couple of them, is minimal.

Having a general preference for girls is just that, a general preference. If we learned that she has a thing for, say, redheads, would that mean she's never really been interested in Mina? Of course not.

Sure. But if then given a choice between Mina and otherwise identical redhead-Mina, do you think she'd prefer the former, or the latter? Which would she find more appealing?

Interest isn't something that has identical strength for all possible subjects. It's proportional to how well the subject meets all our preferences.

Beyond that, I get the impression you're using the wrong metric for Veronica's interest in the MC as a long-term romantic partner. Sure, she's all over Mina in the gym if you introduce them, but I see nothing romantic in that; it would be a casual hookup at best. Even if Mina makes a move on our resident amazon in the latest update, it's still about sex and good feelings. Veronica isn't sharing her life's story with Mina, much less confessing to her fears that she really did ruin her marriage over a stupid gym.

We don't actually know what Veronica is sharing with Mina (and what Mina is sharing with Veronica) during their gym sessions Mina frequently attends, that MC is never really a witness of. For all we know, Veronica by now could've shared with Mina more than she did with Edwin, and Edwin is simply unaware of this.

After all, it's not like Edwin has spent excessively long time with Veronica, either. So evidently, she can open up pretty fast.

Also, to be precise, the metrics i'm using for the long-term romantic relationship are both familiarity/trust and strong sexual attraction. And the latter is something i simply don't believe can be part of Veronica/Edwin pairing, due to aforementioned factors and Veronica's "general preferences" being what they are. Hence i agree with the claim that started this whole tangent, that the chances for this pairing to lead to some sort of "happily ever after" ending are very, very low if not non-existent.

 

[GokutheG]

I think this because this is what Veronica has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the game, as opposed to acting like a person with equal preference towards both sexes, which is what people normally picture when they say someone is bi. It seems to me that people are overblowing this notion that "she is bi" when in reality, if you assigned a scale to the level of interest in physical features of guys and girls, one would be around 1 and the other around 5. The fact it's supposedly just feminine guys that can get her interested, and even then it's a rare occurrence, it's telling.

The thing is, if your interest in a partner is ever, at best, lukewarm, because most of their features just don't turn you on, then the prospects of a long-term relationship that doesn't end when a person shows up who ticks all your boxes as opposed to just a couple of them, is minimal.


Sure. But if then given a choice between Mina and otherwise identical redhead-Mina, do you think she'd prefer the former, or the latter? Which would she find more appealing?

Interest isn't something that has identical strength for all possible subjects. It's proportional to how well the subject meets all our preferences.


We don't actually know what Veronica is sharing with Mina (and what Mina is sharing with Veronica) during their gym sessions Mina frequently attends, that MC is never really a witness of. For all we know, Veronica by now could've shared with Mina more than she did with Edwin, and Edwin is simply unaware of this.

After all, it's not like Edwin has spent excessively long time with Veronica, either. So evidently, she can open up pretty fast.

Also, to be precise, the metrics i'm using for the long-term romantic relationship are both familiarity/trust and strong sexual attraction. And the latter is something i simply don't believe can be part of Veronica/Edwin pairing, due to aforementioned factors and Veronica's "general preferences" being what they are. Hence i agree with the claim that started this whole tangent, that the chances for this pairing to lead to some sort of "happily ever after" ending are very, very low if not non-existent.

Being bi isn't 50/50 attraction to guys/girls. It just means that you're attracted to both. Just because she leans towards woman heavily doesn't erase the fact that she's bi.

 

[ffive]

She has the hots for Mina… like all game. Why settle for generic goth daddy issue girl… when you get Mina. Open and closed.

Right, this totally tracks with how no player around here has interest in getting it on with both Mina and Hana.

Being bi isn't 50/50 attraction to guys/girls. It just means that you're attracted to both. Just because she leans towards woman heavily doesn't erase the fact that she's bi.

I know this. I'm talking about what the popular perception of the concept is like, and how it seems to color people's expectations about how high interest Veronica can have in Edwin.

 

[labmouseblues]

I think this because this is what Veronica has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the game

In the context of the game, her interactions with men are limited entirely to club members and staff, while her interactions with women extend well past that. How hard is it to parse that this does not create a level playing field as far as romantic involvement is concerned? It takes significant player input to show her that the protagonist is a functional human being and a possible viable romantic partner, at which point she not only expresses her attraction, but also acts on it.

For all we know, Veronica by now could've shared with Mina more than she did with Edwin, and Edwin is simply unaware of this.

For all we know, she's vacuuming dicks every night at the local bar, and we're simply unaware of this.

Or we could stick to what the game shows and tells us.

 

[ffive]

In the context of the game, her interactions with men are limited entirely to club members and staff, while her interactions with women extend well past that. How hard is it to parse that this does not create a level playing field as far as romantic involvement is concerned?

Veronica's interactions with men being what they are is largely caused by her own decisions to avoid situations where she would interact with men outside of the club. Even her outing with Edwin is at a lesbian bar, when it could've been a regular bar. There's plenty of men who aren't club members at Hana's concert and (if you don't send Mina her way) Veronica has plenty of time to hit on any of them, if she was so inclined, while she's dancing on her own. Surprise: she doesn't.

At some point you're going to have to open your eyes and acknowledge what is there in plain sight.

For all we know, she's vacuuming dicks every night at the local bar, and we're simply unaware of this.

Or we could stick to what the game shows and tells us.

No, for all we actually know (because that's what Veronica tells us) she has little interest in men and all casual sex she'd had in last months (when she was free to interact with whoever she wanted) was with women. If we're going to indeed stick to what the game shows and tells us.

There's a difference between posing a theory which is not contradicted by what we get told, and one which is. Your counterpoint was one of the latter.

 

[vayora5984]

While I wouldn't call this a mod, it does change the save screen, removing the save naming screen. I find games that have a save name modal after clicking really annoying. This is a simple change to remove that intermediate window, and save immediately after click.

I hope someone else finds this useful. Cheers!

 

[ffive]

While I wouldn't call this a mod, it does change the save screen, removing the save naming screen. I find games that have a save name modal after clicking really annoying. This is a simple change to remove that intermediate window, and save immediately after click.

I hope someone else finds this useful. Cheers!

Not to rain on the parade but IIRC being able to turn off naming saves is already built in the game, as a toggle in settings..?

 

[labmouseblues]

Veronica's interactions with men being what they are is largely caused by her own decisions to avoid situations where she would interact with men outside of the club. Even her outing with Edwin is at a lesbian bar, when it could've been a regular bar. There's plenty of men who aren't club members at Hana's concert and (if you don't send Mina her way) Veronica has plenty of time to hit on any of them, if she was so inclined, while she's dancing on her own. Surprise: she doesn't.

At some point you're going to have to open your eyes and acknowledge what is there in plain sight.

It's actually impressive how you can use "went to a lesbian bar" as an argument, and then completely ignore what follows. You know, the whole forming what is arguably the most intimate personal connection among the potential love interests, based on a set of surprisingly similar life experiences and personal perspectives, followed by mutually explicitly attraction driven sexual Olympics, topped of with some post coital pillow talk.

How about them apples? In plain sight enough?

There's a difference between posing a theory which is not contradicted by what we get told, and one which is. Your counterpoint was one of the latter.

No one explicitly tells us Veronica isn't vacuuming dicks at the local bar. By your standards, it's a valid argument.

Or we can agree that head canon is not a counterargument to factual events and statements from the game.

 

[ffive]

It's actually impressive how you can use "went to a lesbian bar" as an argument, and then completely ignore what follows. You know, the whole forming what is arguably the most intimate personal connection among the potential love interests, based on a set of surprisingly similar life experiences and personal perspectives, followed by mutually explicitly attraction driven sexual Olympics, topped of with some post coital pillow talk.

What follows in your example has no bearing on initial context, which was Veronica only being able to interact with men in the club. I was pointing out this was largely due to her own decisions.

As for what can also follow, is Veronica ditching Edwin for a hookup with a random girl which you wingman for her. Something you in turn seem very eager to completely ignore. So much for all the soulful bonding, forming deep connections etc. Random female booty has a higher priority if only an opportunity presents itself.

No one explicitly tells us Veronica isn't vacuuming dicks at the local bar. By your standards, it's a valid argument.

No, by my actual standards it's a nonsense on basic logical level, given what we were explicitly told. If Veronica told you that she's been hooking up with women, as opposed to hooking up with women and men, then that's what's happening in the story, and it contradicts any head canon to the contrary one might want to invent.

 

[UmbralKnight]

I think this because this is what Veronica has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the game, as opposed to acting like a person with equal preference towards both sexes, which is what people normally picture when they say someone is bi. It seems to me that people are overblowing this notion that "she is bi" when in reality

now you are holding her up to unreasonable standards.
so by this logic why isn't this same criteria applied to other girls like hana ,felicia or mina ?
all of them has shown atleast some interest in other women or has had flings with women in the past.
yet you don't seem to mind their bisexuality.

if you assigned a scale to the level of interest in physical features of guys and girls, one would be around 1 and the other around 5. The fact it's supposedly just feminine guys that can get her interested, and even then it's a rare occurrence, it's telling.

so what if someone is straight then are they going to find ALL straight people suddenly sexually attractive just because they too happen to be straight ?
obviously everything comes down to individual preferences , that's why even if you are a straight male your sexual preferences are going to differ as you age up.
you might have loved milfs when you were a teenager but as you get older your tastes in women will definitely vary now you might find tall women appealing or maybe now you like even older cougars.
nothing is permanent in life.

if your interest in a partner is ever, at best, lukewarm, because most of their features just don't turn you on, then the prospects of a long-term relationship that doesn't end when a person shows up who ticks all your boxes as opposed to just a couple of them, is minimal.

life isn't bunch of check boxes , even if that was the case why did lily and veronica breakup then ?
surely she is supposed to be far MORE compatible right ?

the metrics i'm using for the long-term romantic relationship are both familiarity/trust and strong sexual attraction. And the latter is something i simply don't believe can be part of Veronica/Edwin pairing, due to aforementioned factors and Veronica's "general preferences" being what they are. Hence i agree with the claim that started this whole tangent, that the chances for this pairing to lead to some sort of "happily ever after" ending are very, very low if not non-existent.

and what you think the other girls are going to get a happily ever after ending with the MC just because they are not BI ?
do you really think rose is going to let the MC become step "daddy" of her child or do you really think that felicia is going to divorce her husband and settle down with the MC ?
all of these scenarios are equally absurd yet you think ONLY veronica and the MC can't be in a longterm happy relationship ever.

would i be happy if the devs created a happily ever after ending ending for the two
obviously yes but i don't mind if things don't work out between the 2 in the long run either
because such is life but claiming that they don't have any kind of mutual attraction is just plain wild denial.

 

[labmouseblues]

What follows in your example has no bearing on initial context

The context is the discussion about the possibility of two characters entering a lasting relationship, and whether the events of the game support that possibility.

You remember where we started from, right?

As for what can also follow, is Veronica ditching Edwin for a hookup with a random girl which you wingman for her.

What can also happen is that you never connect with any of the possible love interests, because you choose to not enrage with the offered opportunities. It's a game, it's supposed to have options, for fuck's sake.

No, by my actual standards it's a nonsense on basic logical level

You do realize I'm not seriously arguing Veronica sucks dicks as a pastime, right?

 

[ffive]

now you are holding her up to unreasonable standards.
so by this logic why isn't this same criteria applied to other girls like hana ,felicia or mina ?
all of them has shown atleast some interest in other women or has had flings with women in the past.
yet you don't seem to mind their bisexuality.

Mina's "bi-curiosity" is something you quite literally develop as a player, she starts with none and can remain so.
Hana explicitly talks how she only had a single lesbian experience and how she doesn't have much interest in it. She'll repeat it to Mina during their garage talk.

So for both of them, the situations is kind of opposite to Veronica -- the game has clearly established their heterosexual attraction, while their lesbian interest is either budding or limited. Same goes for Felicia, whose attraction to men doesn't seem to be on low end of the spectrum.

It's not "standards" that i'm holding anyone to here. I'm simply taking note of the characters' apparent preferences and what it might mean for the MC who may or may not meet those preferences.

obviously everything comes down to individual preferences , that's why even if you are a straight male your sexual preferences are going to differ as you age up.

Right, and then people go and do their hardest to ignore what these preferences are for Veronica.

Even if they were to change with age, we're talking about here and now, and how that might impact the odds of forming a long-term relationship. If you're going to bet on "maybe her preferences will change in some decade or two and suddenly she starts to find Edwin irresistibly appealing, much more than any women she meets everyday"... well, sure, that is a bet you can make.

life isn't bunch of check boxes , even if that was the case why did lily and veronica breakup then ?
surely she is supposed to be far MORE compatible right ?

Being more compatible doesn't automatically guarantee being compatible enough for relationship to last. To reverse your question -- if Veronica and her wife broke up, what makes you hope that her relationship with someone much less compatible is going to fare any better?

and what you think the other girls are going to get a happily ever after ending with the MC just because they are not BI ?

No, i don't. In fact, i'll be quite surprised if there's such ending for any of them, because there's plenty aspects these pairings have going against things working out for them. But that's entirely different argument.