VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ffive]

But that's precisely what the obstacle was. As long as the protagonist was only a part of the competition, having sex with him would be selling out beyond what Veronica was willing to trade for her aspirations.

But what people are arguing is that the protagonist was never only a part of the competition, but that he's also totally sexually attractive to Veronica.

"He totally is, she she just wouldn't fuck him initially because he's so morally repugnant to her." And where, precisely, this idea that Veronica wouldn't ever fuck someone morally repugnant but sexually attractive to her, comes from? Because so far it only seems like it's based on the fact that she wasn't very willing to fuck Edwin... but that's very much circular reasoning.

kathy is unpredictable , who said anything about the MC being able to fuck any of the girls at all in the next event ?

I was referring to what MC has already done in the previous rounds of the competition. It was to point out how difficult it'd be for Kat to claim the competition was influenced by Edwin, without her sounding like an idiot. Even if he could've, in fact, influenced the results of those rounds in that exact manner.

 

[ffive]

the main reason she is attracted to the MC is because he is nice,trustworthy and friendly to her.
its a classic "finding sanctuary in any port during the storm" situation.

That's uhh, completely not how sexual attraction works.

It's more like what "nice guys" think should earn them sex. Except, surprise, it doesn't.

 

[UmbralKnight]

That's uhh, completely not how sexual attraction works.

It's more like what "nice guys" think should earn them sex. Except, surprise, it doesn't.

that's LITERALLY what gets you laid with veronica.
don't forget the MC used to look like the stereotypical niceguy incel before the glowup few updates ago.
but looks can be deceiving as we can prove it to her.
veronica when she meets the MC for the first time she calls him a "boy" later she calls him a "creep" ,"human cockroach" and finally pervert all within the span of the first week.
now if we are going by your previous assertions why doesn't she try to seduce ian or kathy clearly if you pick rose/felicia for the photoshoot then veronica is teamed with either ian or kathy and they spend lot of time together alone.
if she hated the "niceguy" looking MC she would have definitely tried to seduce the others yet we don't see anything like that ever happening.
if looks was all she ever cared about why doesn't she try to seduce hana hoping that she could use her to win future events ?

no, being the "NICE GUY" is what gets you laid with veronica.
after the brutal week 2 competition , she is all alone and if you are her friend you can invite her to the MC home for a good nights rest.
she agrees and by your definition the "NICE GUY" MC does nothing remotely sexual , even cooks her nice breakfast the next day and they do nothing else than hanging out for a while.
that's how both of them slowly bond with each other , sexual attraction isn't just purely physical.
sure its a major factor for lots of people but there are plenty of other factors in play.
after all if all she cared about was physical attraction why would she try to spend time with the MC trying to get to know him outside the club ?
why would she want to see what his dance moves look like etc etc and before you say it's all alcohol yeah no in the last update she is clearly not drunk and she and the MC challenge each other who can successfully get into the pants of the barkeep first or at least get her number.
she clearly likes having fun with the MC even without any alcohol.
she even lets the NICEGUY MC kiss her goodbye in the open just outside her own gym in front of everyone .

 

[ffive]

that's LITERALLY what gets you laid with veronica.
don't forget the MC used to look like the stereotypical niceguy incel before the glowup few updates ago.
but looks can be deceiving as we can prove to her.
veronica when she meets the MC for the first time she calls him a "Boy" later she calls him a "creep" ,"human cockroach" and fianlly pervert all within the span of the first week.
now if we are going by your previous assertions why doesn't she try to seduce ian or kathy clearly if you pick rose/felicia for the photoshoot then veronica is teamed with either ian or kathy and they spend lot of time together alone.
if she hated the "niceguy" looking MC she would have definitely tried to seduce the other's yet we don't see anything like that ever happening.

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

Although, just to be a devil's advocate for a moment -- as you note, when Veronica does her video, Edwin is busy with another girl. So, even if Veronica actually seduced Ian, Edwin wouldn't see any of that and wouldn't know anything about it, unless Ian chose to brag about it afterwards.

if looks was all she ever cred about why doesn't she try to seduce hana hoping that she could use her to win future events ?

no, being the NICE GUY is what gets you laid with veronica.

I'm not sure if you've realized it, but this is interesting point, because Hana is far more than merely "a nice guy" -- she's even nicer than Edwin and she's a girl. One that looks quite like Mina who as we can see is very attractive to Veronica. In other words, Hana has all that you say got Edwin laid with her (a very nice personality) and none of his drawbacks (i.e. she isn't a guy, but a very pretty girl)

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

 

[Darreau91]

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

She has the hots for Mina… like all game. Why settle for generic goth daddy issue girl… when you get Mina. Open and closed.

 

[UmbralKnight]

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

you just answered your own previous question

Considering it's not only not a factor against, but even incentive for other two Carnations to seek sex with Edwin (especially Rose) why do you think it'd have opposite effect on Veronica? Do you believe her to be someone who wouldn't try to use sex as influence with someone they found physically appealing, to curry favors and/or advantage in the competition?

just for the record as i have said before i don't think she ever planned to seduce ANYONE hoping they might help her win against other girls.

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin. It'd also explain why she doesn't bother with Ian, who is also a guy. Now, Kat isn't a guy, but even Veronica isn't dumb enough to think that trying to seduce Kat would get her anything.

Although, just to be a devil's advocate for a moment -- as you note, when Veronica does her video, Edwin is busy with another girl. So, even if Veronica actually seduced Ian, Edwin wouldn't see any of that and wouldn't know anything about it, unless Ian chose to brag about it afterwards.


I'm not sure if you've realized it, but this is interesting point, because Hana is far more than merely "a nice guy" -- she's even nicer than Edwin and she's a girl. One that looks quite like Mina who as we can see is very attractive to Veronica. In other words, Hana has all that you say got Edwin laid with her (a very nice personality) and none of his drawbacks (i.e. she isn't a guy, but a very pretty girl)

So it is indeed an open question why Veronica never tries to hit on Hana instead of bothering with Edwin. If, how you claim, being nice is all that it takes to get you laid with Veronica.

well there are 2 obvious answers
the most simple explanation is that the writer didn't want Hana to be the one who consoles Veronica after kathy brutalized her , this would obviously mean that it won't have the same impact as the MC being the only soul who helped her when was alone.

second explanation is that there is an obvious difference between being a Nice Guy and a NICEGUY.
Hana is a Nice Girl but the MC is a NICE GUY , remember both of them saw the same thing happen to Veronica and only one of them tried to help her.
trauma bonding is one hell a thing , sure Hana is a Nice Girl in the sense that she is pretty "decent human being" who tries to treat everyone same , has some level of kindness and helps people if she can but don't forget just like everyone else she did nothing but watch kathy brutalise Veroncia and even after the incident she didn't try to console her off stage when kathy wasn't there.
she just like most "normal" people there knew what happend to veronica was a horrible thing but didn't try to help fearing it could compromise her own position within the club.

meanwhile the MC is a NICEGUY
did he have ulterior motives in helping veroncia ?
maybe
was he part of the same system that led to this abuse ?
yes
but none of that mattered to her at that moment because she despertely needed some NICEGUY to tell her it was going to be all right.
light shining in darkness and all that , this is what i meant by any port in the storm previously.
do you think at that point Veronica cared about how "attractive" the MC looked ?
like i said looks alone isn't the ONLY factor for sexual attraction , in that moment she probably felt more safe in the arms of the dorky NICEGUY MC than anyone else.

 

[ename144]

My actual assertion was that Veronica has little to no interest in guys, period, and that's why she doesn't generally bother with Edwin.

I have no ide why you think this when Veronica has been very consistent that she's bi. Having a general preference for girls is just that, a general preference. If we learned that she has a thing for, say, redheads, would that mean she's never really been interested in Mina? Of course not.

Beyond that, I get the impression you're using the wrong metric for Veronica's interest in the MC as a long-term romantic partner. Sure, she's all over Mina in the gym if you introduce them, but I see nothing romantic in that; it would be a casual hookup at best. Even if Mina makes a move on our resident amazon in the latest update, it's still about sex and good feelings. Veronica isn't sharing her life's story with Mina, much less confessing to her fears that she really did ruin her marriage over a stupid gym.

But Veronica will do that with the MC if he makes the effort to connect with her. To me that says it all.

Could Veronica someday get equally close to Mina? Maybe, though I think it would be an uphill battle. But at best that would only indicate Mina could also have a potential relationship with Veronica. It wouldn't thereby invalidate the MC's potential any more than Veronica's previous marriage did.

 

[Beduin123]

Am I the only one here that doesn't care about Veronica at all?

 

[Darreau91]

well there are 2 obvious answers
the most simple explanation is that the writer didn't want Hana to be the one who consoles Veronica after kathy brutalized her , this would obviously mean that it won't have the same impact as the MC being the only soul who helped her when was alone.

second explanation is that there is an obvious difference between being a Nice Guy and a NICEGUY.
Hana is a Nice Girl but the MC is a NICE GUY , remember both of them saw the same thing happen to Veronica and only one of them tried to help her.
trauma bonding is one hell a thing , sure Hana is a Nice Girl in the sense that she is pretty "decent human being" who tries to treat everyone same , has some level of kindness and helps people if she can but don't forget just like everyone else she did nothing

Finally, someone points out Hana is the 2nd biggest p.o.s. girl in this game outside of Sophia.

She talks a sweet game. “I’m doing this for mommy.” “This place is evil with a capital E.” “We need to treat all these hoes like humans.””Dad was out ruin and now my savior.” Her actions say different, she is a nice girl.


1. The vixen seduces our dork MC with black pig tails and tattoos. Drags Edwin into her daddy issues by asking Edwin for business advice. Mrs Rebellious Preachy numb skull then can’t make the obvious decisions about the business that would benefit the abused women… after preaching how crappy it is. WEAK and indecisive.

2. Hana got blackmailed by her dad, I get it. Then proceeds to blow the hired dildo right under his nose risking everything she is crocodile tearing towards. That’s reeeallllyyy putting mommy first. SUCCUBUS.

3. Her one true love, the damn bike, worth atleast 20k. Nope won’t sell it to help cover her lovely mommy’s treatment and get out under from August quicker. 20k is a nice option have a plan B of hospice if daddy’s plan goes side ways. MATERIALISTIC HOE

4. Dyed her hair pink insulting breast cancer awareness. Her breasts appear damn healthy. It’s a slap in a face to her mom and all other women suffering a life threatening disease. EVIL, PURE SOPHIA LEVELS of EVIL.

How this “drummer,” who can’t even draw atleast 100 horny men who want to see her tits jiggle while banging drums, wins the popularity poll is beyond reasoning.

 

[Draim]

Am I the only one here that doesn't care about Veronica at all?

How about Sophie?

 

[Phase_01]

How about Sophie?

I care about the cum queen, I care about how much cum she'll get herself covered in next time she gets a scene

 

[Ottoeight]

Finally, someone points out Hana is the 2nd biggest p.o.s. girl in this game outside of Sophia.

She talks a sweet game. “I’m doing this for mommy.” “This place is evil with a capital E.” “We need to treat all these hoes like humans.””Dad was out ruin and now my savior.” Her actions say different, she is a nice girl.


1. The vixen seduces our dork MC with black pig tails and tattoos. Drags Edwin into her daddy issues by asking Edwin for business advice. Mrs Rebellious Preachy numb skull then can’t make the obvious decisions about the business that would benefit the abused women… after preaching how crappy it is. WEAK and indecisive.

2. Hana got blackmailed by her dad, I get it. Then proceeds to blow the hired dildo right under his nose risking everything she is crocodile tearing towards. That’s reeeallllyyy putting mommy first. SUCCUBUS.

3. Her one true love, the damn bike, worth atleast 20k. Nope won’t sell it to help cover her lovely mommy’s treatment and get out under from August quicker. 20k is a nice option have a plan B of hospice if daddy’s plan goes side ways. MATERIALISTIC HOE

4. Dyed her hair pink insulting breast cancer awareness. Her breasts appear damn healthy. It’s a slap in a face to her mom and all other women suffering a life threatening disease. EVIL, PURE SOPHIA LEVELS of EVIL.

How this “drummer,” who can’t even draw atleast 100 horny men who want to see her tits jiggle while banging drums, wins the popularity poll is beyond reasoning.

Bruh, either you are trolling us or you are totally out of your mind:

I have no clue of why you think Hana is a point-of-sale girl: we never saw her asking for your card while showing her credit card reader. We never saw her with a barcode scanner in her hands as well.

 

[ffive]

I have no ide why you think this when Veronica has been very consistent that she's bi.

I think this because this is what Veronica has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the game, as opposed to acting like a person with equal preference towards both sexes, which is what people normally picture when they say someone is bi. It seems to me that people are overblowing this notion that "she is bi" when in reality, if you assigned a scale to the level of interest in physical features of guys and girls, one would be around 1 and the other around 5. The fact it's supposedly just feminine guys that can get her interested, and even then it's a rare occurrence, it's telling.

The thing is, if your interest in a partner is ever, at best, lukewarm, because most of their features just don't turn you on, then the prospects of a long-term relationship that doesn't end when a person shows up who ticks all your boxes as opposed to just a couple of them, is minimal.

Having a general preference for girls is just that, a general preference. If we learned that she has a thing for, say, redheads, would that mean she's never really been interested in Mina? Of course not.

Sure. But if then given a choice between Mina and otherwise identical redhead-Mina, do you think she'd prefer the former, or the latter? Which would she find more appealing?

Interest isn't something that has identical strength for all possible subjects. It's proportional to how well the subject meets all our preferences.

Beyond that, I get the impression you're using the wrong metric for Veronica's interest in the MC as a long-term romantic partner. Sure, she's all over Mina in the gym if you introduce them, but I see nothing romantic in that; it would be a casual hookup at best. Even if Mina makes a move on our resident amazon in the latest update, it's still about sex and good feelings. Veronica isn't sharing her life's story with Mina, much less confessing to her fears that she really did ruin her marriage over a stupid gym.

We don't actually know what Veronica is sharing with Mina (and what Mina is sharing with Veronica) during their gym sessions Mina frequently attends, that MC is never really a witness of. For all we know, Veronica by now could've shared with Mina more than she did with Edwin, and Edwin is simply unaware of this.

After all, it's not like Edwin has spent excessively long time with Veronica, either. So evidently, she can open up pretty fast.

Also, to be precise, the metrics i'm using for the long-term romantic relationship are both familiarity/trust and strong sexual attraction. And the latter is something i simply don't believe can be part of Veronica/Edwin pairing, due to aforementioned factors and Veronica's "general preferences" being what they are. Hence i agree with the claim that started this whole tangent, that the chances for this pairing to lead to some sort of "happily ever after" ending are very, very low if not non-existent.

 

[GokutheG]

I think this because this is what Veronica has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the game, as opposed to acting like a person with equal preference towards both sexes, which is what people normally picture when they say someone is bi. It seems to me that people are overblowing this notion that "she is bi" when in reality, if you assigned a scale to the level of interest in physical features of guys and girls, one would be around 1 and the other around 5. The fact it's supposedly just feminine guys that can get her interested, and even then it's a rare occurrence, it's telling.

The thing is, if your interest in a partner is ever, at best, lukewarm, because most of their features just don't turn you on, then the prospects of a long-term relationship that doesn't end when a person shows up who ticks all your boxes as opposed to just a couple of them, is minimal.


Sure. But if then given a choice between Mina and otherwise identical redhead-Mina, do you think she'd prefer the former, or the latter? Which would she find more appealing?

Interest isn't something that has identical strength for all possible subjects. It's proportional to how well the subject meets all our preferences.


We don't actually know what Veronica is sharing with Mina (and what Mina is sharing with Veronica) during their gym sessions Mina frequently attends, that MC is never really a witness of. For all we know, Veronica by now could've shared with Mina more than she did with Edwin, and Edwin is simply unaware of this.

After all, it's not like Edwin has spent excessively long time with Veronica, either. So evidently, she can open up pretty fast.

Also, to be precise, the metrics i'm using for the long-term romantic relationship are both familiarity/trust and strong sexual attraction. And the latter is something i simply don't believe can be part of Veronica/Edwin pairing, due to aforementioned factors and Veronica's "general preferences" being what they are. Hence i agree with the claim that started this whole tangent, that the chances for this pairing to lead to some sort of "happily ever after" ending are very, very low if not non-existent.

Being bi isn't 50/50 attraction to guys/girls. It just means that you're attracted to both. Just because she leans towards woman heavily doesn't erase the fact that she's bi.

 

[ffive]

She has the hots for Mina… like all game. Why settle for generic goth daddy issue girl… when you get Mina. Open and closed.

Right, this totally tracks with how no player around here has interest in getting it on with both Mina and Hana.

Being bi isn't 50/50 attraction to guys/girls. It just means that you're attracted to both. Just because she leans towards woman heavily doesn't erase the fact that she's bi.

I know this. I'm talking about what the popular perception of the concept is like, and how it seems to color people's expectations about how high interest Veronica can have in Edwin.

 

[labmouseblues]

I think this because this is what Veronica has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the game

In the context of the game, her interactions with men are limited entirely to club members and staff, while her interactions with women extend well past that. How hard is it to parse that this does not create a level playing field as far as romantic involvement is concerned? It takes significant player input to show her that the protagonist is a functional human being and a possible viable romantic partner, at which point she not only expresses her attraction, but also acts on it.

For all we know, Veronica by now could've shared with Mina more than she did with Edwin, and Edwin is simply unaware of this.

For all we know, she's vacuuming dicks every night at the local bar, and we're simply unaware of this.

Or we could stick to what the game shows and tells us.

 

[ffive]

In the context of the game, her interactions with men are limited entirely to club members and staff, while her interactions with women extend well past that. How hard is it to parse that this does not create a level playing field as far as romantic involvement is concerned?

Veronica's interactions with men being what they are is largely caused by her own decisions to avoid situations where she would interact with men outside of the club. Even her outing with Edwin is at a lesbian bar, when it could've been a regular bar. There's plenty of men who aren't club members at Hana's concert and (if you don't send Mina her way) Veronica has plenty of time to hit on any of them, if she was so inclined, while she's dancing on her own. Surprise: she doesn't.

At some point you're going to have to open your eyes and acknowledge what is there in plain sight.

For all we know, she's vacuuming dicks every night at the local bar, and we're simply unaware of this.

Or we could stick to what the game shows and tells us.

No, for all we actually know (because that's what Veronica tells us) she has little interest in men and all casual sex she'd had in last months (when she was free to interact with whoever she wanted) was with women. If we're going to indeed stick to what the game shows and tells us.

There's a difference between posing a theory which is not contradicted by what we get told, and one which is. Your counterpoint was one of the latter.

 

[vayora5984]

While I wouldn't call this a mod, it does change the save screen, removing the save naming screen. I find games that have a save name modal after clicking really annoying. This is a simple change to remove that intermediate window, and save immediately after click.

I hope someone else finds this useful. Cheers!

 

[ffive]

While I wouldn't call this a mod, it does change the save screen, removing the save naming screen. I find games that have a save name modal after clicking really annoying. This is a simple change to remove that intermediate window, and save immediately after click.

I hope someone else finds this useful. Cheers!

Not to rain on the parade but IIRC being able to turn off naming saves is already built in the game, as a toggle in settings..?

 

[labmouseblues]

Veronica's interactions with men being what they are is largely caused by her own decisions to avoid situations where she would interact with men outside of the club. Even her outing with Edwin is at a lesbian bar, when it could've been a regular bar. There's plenty of men who aren't club members at Hana's concert and (if you don't send Mina her way) Veronica has plenty of time to hit on any of them, if she was so inclined, while she's dancing on her own. Surprise: she doesn't.

At some point you're going to have to open your eyes and acknowledge what is there in plain sight.

It's actually impressive how you can use "went to a lesbian bar" as an argument, and then completely ignore what follows. You know, the whole forming what is arguably the most intimate personal connection among the potential love interests, based on a set of surprisingly similar life experiences and personal perspectives, followed by mutually explicitly attraction driven sexual Olympics, topped of with some post coital pillow talk.

How about them apples? In plain sight enough?

There's a difference between posing a theory which is not contradicted by what we get told, and one which is. Your counterpoint was one of the latter.

No one explicitly tells us Veronica isn't vacuuming dicks at the local bar. By your standards, it's a valid argument.

Or we can agree that head canon is not a counterargument to factual events and statements from the game.