VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[starkj]

Ok, so i just finished what's available of the game and im loving it so far, i really like all 3 carnantions + Mina and Hana, i'm not even a guy who likes muscular women like Veronica but this game might change that because i have a soft spot for her. What i hope is that this game has at least a happy ending and not make me feel miserable.
Good job to the creators of the game and i'd love to see them make more games after PC.

 

[Scrounger117]

After running the game yesterday, I tried to start it today and got the audio channel exception in the trace log and the game is not starting. The LISC game solution from this forum is not working for me. Anyone can help, please?

I have the same issue, the tracelog output

  File "C:\Users\username\Games\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\audio\audio.py", line 821, in get_channel
    raise Exception("Audio channel %r is unknown." % name)
Exception: Audio channel u'menu_click' is unknown.

 

[TD1900]

So what do you think, is this the direction PC is heading, or are these examples indications that I've grown soft in my playstyle and somehow gotten myself on the white knight/good guy track...?

You're not alone. Four of five people have observed he feels unusually moralistic this update. I still currently hold that Edwin's been consistent in his character - he's been aghast over certain aspects of the club before and he's previously found comfort for his conscience in his role as an advocate - but it's (very) possible I went a little too heavy in spots. It's something I've been mulling over and trying to get some perspective on. Writing a character like Edwin, who needs to be consistently hypocritical so when the critical moment comes, both extremes of his character makes sense, can be a tricky balancing act.

To answer your question, the game's planned end states are still as it has always been. They'll be endings where Edwin embraces all the club has to offer, endings where Edwin leaves the club, and some gradation in between. You won't be forced into a good guy scenario.

I have the same issue, the tracelog output

Is this without any mods or alterations to the game's files?

 

[Scrounger117]

You're not alone. Four of five people have observed he feels unusually moralistic this update. I still currently hold that Edwin's been consistent in his character - he's been aghast over certain aspects of the club before and he's previously found comfort for his conscience in his role as an advocate - but it's (very) possible I went a little too heavy in spots. It's something I've been mulling over and trying to get some perspective on. Writing a character like Edwin, who needs to be consistently hypocritical so when the critical moment comes, both extremes of his character makes sense, can be a tricky balancing act.

To answer your question, the game's planned end states are still as it has always been. They'll be endings where Edwin embraces all the club has to offer, endings where Edwin leaves the club, and some gradation in between. You won't be forced into a good guy scenario.



Is this without any mods or alterations to the game's files?

Re-downloaded the original file, extracted to a new folder to test this out. I must have modded the other installation that results in this error. The new, un-modded copy seems to launch fine.

UPDATE: I figured out what happened, I combined two mods into the game. OOPS

 

[ename144]

Is the game listing towards the good guy scenario? I've kind of had this feeling for a couple of updates and in the last update there's two really good examples of it:

Spoiler

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So what do you think, is this the direction PC is heading, or are these examples indications that I've grown soft in my playstyle and somehow gotten myself on the white knight/good guy track...?

The MC's morality can vary a little bit from scene to scene, but I think what we saw in this episode was relatively consistent with his normal self.

Spoiler: MC's Thoughts

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You're not alone. Four of five people have observed he feels unusually moralistic this update. I still currently hold that Edwin's been consistent in his character - he's been aghast over certain aspects of the club before and he's previously found comfort for his conscience in his role as an advocate - but it's (very) possible I went a little too heavy in spots. It's something I've been mulling over and trying to get some perspective on. Writing a character like Edwin, who needs to be consistently hypocritical so when the critical moment comes, both extremes of his character makes sense, can be a tricky balancing act.

To answer your question, the game's planned end states are still as it has always been. They'll be endings where Edwin embraces all the club has to offer, endings where Edwin leaves the club, and some gradation in between. You won't be forced into a good guy scenario.

For what it's worth (with me being a hopeless softy), I thought the MC was generally well portrayed during the update. He monologues a lot about what's going on around him, but his actual actions feel in-line with his previous behavior. He's generally tried to 'emulate' good behavior as a default. Kathleen's gift has opened the door a crack, he's deliberately preventing it from opening further at this time. So I thought the options we had did a good enough job showing which side of the line he was currently on.

It's not like he could really have tried to extort a favor from Harper and Lucy (given Dalia sent him), and he does wind up getting a little insistent with Dalia in the sauna. The only potential missed opportunity I could see would be giving Emma a task he'd actually enjoy seeing if he gives her a night off on his own (rather than showing no interest in the video she sends him); I could see a high-Toughness MC trying to push the envelope under the guise of 'helping.' But that's a relatively minor omission, IMHO.

My only real complaint is the one I alluded to above: it seems a little late for the MC to be shocked at how poorly Dr. Chuck et al allow the house girls to be treated. I'm not saying an Asshole MC needs to endorse that policy right now, but it can't come as a surprise (especially if he listened in on the various conversations about how Warren treated Emma).

 

[AwsHen]

You're not alone. Four of five people have observed he feels unusually moralistic this update. I still currently hold that Edwin's been consistent in his character - he's been aghast over certain aspects of the club before and he's previously found comfort for his conscience in his role as an advocate - but it's (very) possible I went a little too heavy in spots. It's something I've been mulling over and trying to get some perspective on. Writing a character like Edwin, who needs to be consistently hypocritical so when the critical moment comes, both extremes of his character makes sense, can be a tricky balancing act.

To answer your question, the game's planned end states are still as it has always been. They'll be endings where Edwin embraces all the club has to offer, endings where Edwin leaves the club, and some gradation in between. You won't be forced into a good guy scenario.

Regardless if Edwin is consistent in his character or nor, it is possible for humans to have one opinion or feeling in this minute and a completely different opinion or feeling in the next minute, people can and will be both merciful and cruel at the same time, it will be more prominent if people who are put in unusual or extreme situations (i.e. the club) and if the person is more receptive or emotional the more extreme his/her emotional swings will be.

So its perfectly normal Edwin to think behave/think like that, since he is shown to be both good and nasty.

 

[SanaeS]

Talking about Edwin morality, what do you think it will be the choice that could make him "cross the line"?
I mean something that will undoubtedly make him "the bad guy" and unable to go back.

 

[ramvivat]

Talking about Edwin morality, what do you think it will be the choice that could make him "cross the line"?
I mean something that will undoubtedly make him "the bad guy" and unable to go back.

well - THUGNESS
you may do for THUGNESS increased or you may do for THUGNESS decreased.
nothing is too late until hammers knock over you ... (hammers that clog the lid of your coffin) I remember Jesus had an associate - he collected taxes.

 

[ramiurga]

They'll be five chapters.

Oh, no! What about the fall entertainment, and the winter show? The gentlemen need to be entertained all year round! And the MC needs more input before making any final decisions . Keep the chapters coming, please, please

 

[Phase_01]

So have creators confirmed there'll be more mom past recording scenes? Also the loophole on the "non-incest" there is weird, considering mc is watching her pornos lol
(also would be cool if there was some Killian mom/mina revenge vids we made in the negative Killian route)

 

[sabadongelov]

You're not alone. Four of five people have observed he feels unusually moralistic this update.

Interesting that you have that statistic. And also that I'm not exactly alone in feeling this way.

I still currently hold that Edwin's been consistent in his character - he's been aghast over certain aspects of the club before and he's previously found comfort for his conscience in his role as an advocate - but it's (very) possible I went a little too heavy in spots. It's something I've been mulling over and trying to get some perspective on. Writing a character like Edwin, who needs to be consistently hypocritical so when the critical moment comes, both extremes of his character makes sense, can be a tricky balancing act.

Yeah, I get that it’s difficult to create one size fits all reactions for what is basically two (or more) different personalities. But I think I know a possible solution that would solve both our problems: Having more choice regarding reactions and actions taken by Edwin, where the difference is connected to toughness and affect that same score. That of course mean that you would have to write more dialogue, but on the other hand, you won’t have to spend as much time on trying to come up with reactions/actions that make sense both for maximum toughness Edwin and minimum toughness Edwin.

And now that I think about it, I have a feeling there were many more such choices in the early portions of the game, which might explain why I feel the later chapters feel more good-guy-leaning (because it’s more one size fits all and that, at least in the latter stages of the game list more towards minimum toughness Edwin).

To answer your question, the game's planned end states are still as it has always been. They'll be endings where Edwin embraces all the club has to offer, endings where Edwin leaves the club, and some gradation in between. You won't be forced into a good guy scenario.

Great!

Anyway, thanks for the reply and thanks for a great game!

The MC's morality can vary a little bit from scene to scene, but I think what we saw in this episode was relatively consistent with his normal self.

Spoiler: MC's Thoughts

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I can’t say I get the “of course!!!” feeling out of your explanation, but also can't say that it feels wrong. However, as the game is structured with Edwin constantly giving the player his reasoning and feelings regarding both what’s happening around him and what he himself is saying and doing, I think we (as players) should be given the real reason behind why Edwin does what he does, when the explanations he gives other characters in the game are lies. Unless it’s obvious that he's lying and what his real reasons are, in which case it's not neccessary for him to pontificate on them. If we're given such reasons, extra options/choices are not neccessary.

Another way to solve it is simply not have Rosalind offer him oral sex. But if the dev want to make a point out of her trying to make him exploit her and him resisting it (we assume your explanation is correct), then Edwins reasoning should be fleshed out in the game, so as to make it apparant what's going on.

As for “sex is not a high priority”, I think that is a terrible attitude to have in a porn game…

Spoiler: MC's Thoughts

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Maybe I misremembered that he said he would do something about it, but definitely not him having an over the top reaction to something he should have been able to see coming from miles away. And I didn’t read his reaction as “confusion”, but rather as righteous anger at a perceived injustice. A reaction which together with his expressed shock leads Dalia to view him as a good hearted and naïve youngling out of his depth (since she more or less says as much), which in itself is telling about his reaction. A maximum toughness Edwin is definitely not a naïve softie, and it feels a little bit off to me to have him react in a way that make people think that he is, especially in a place where being viewed as a naïve softie might be a liability.

Regardless, I think these kind of situations would be best handled by letting the player choose how Edwin reacts (se above), rather than trying to construct a one size fits all reaction that works both for maximum toughness Edwin and minimum toughness Edwin (because that is inherently difficult and will likely not always work out perfectly).

A sidenote here is that if 4 out of 5 players feel that Edwin is playing up his moralistic side in the last update, but you, who prefer minimum toughness Edwin, feel it’s all good, maybe your take is influenced by you simply not playing as maximum toughness Edwin?

 

[TD1900]

Interesting that you have that statistic. And also that I'm not exactly alone in feeling this way.

Oh, I'm sure it's more than that, that's just the expressed comments here that I remember reading - and my memory could be on the gentler side. Still, point is, you're not the first to bring it up.

Anyway, thank you for the food for thought.

 

[selberdreher]

Interesting that you have that statistic. And also that I'm not exactly alone in feeling this way.

Yeah, I get that it’s difficult to create one size fits all reactions for what is basically two (or more) different personalities. But I think I know a possible solution that would solve both our problems: Having more choice regarding reactions and actions taken by Edwin, where the difference is connected to toughness and affect that same score. That of course mean that you would have to write more dialogue, but on the other hand, you won’t have to spend as much time on trying to come up with reactions/actions that make sense both for maximum toughness Edwin and minimum toughness Edwin.

And now that I think about it, I have a feeling there were many more such choices in the early portions of the game, which might explain why I feel the later chapters feel more good-guy-leaning (because it’s more one size fits all and that, at least in the latter stages of the game list more towards minimum toughness Edwin).

(...)

I can’t say I get the “of course!!!” feeling out of your explanation, but also can't say that it feels wrong. However, as the game is structured with Edwin constantly giving the player his reasoning and feelings regarding both what’s happening around him and what he himself is saying and doing, I think we (as players) should be given the real reason behind why Edwin does what he does, when the explanations he gives other characters in the game are lies. Unless it’s obvious that he's lying and what his real reasons are, in which case it's not neccessary for him to pontificate on them. If we're given such reasons, extra options/choices are not neccessary.

(...)

Maybe I misremembered that he said he would do something about it, but definitely not him having an over the top reaction to something he should have been able to see coming from miles away. And I didn’t read his reaction as “confusion”, but rather as righteous anger at a perceived injustice. A reaction which together with his expressed shock leads Dalia to view him as a good hearted and naïve youngling out of his depth (since she more or less says as much), which in itself is telling about his reaction. A maximum toughness Edwin is definitely not a naïve softie, and it feels a little bit off to me to have him react in a way that make people think that he is, especially in a place where being viewed as a naïve softie might be a liability.

Regardless, I think these kind of situations would be best handled by letting the player choose how Edwin reacts (se above), rather than trying to construct a one size fits all reaction that works both for maximum toughness Edwin and minimum toughness Edwin (because that is inherently difficult and will likely not always work out perfectly).

A sidenote here is that if 4 out of 5 players feel that Edwin is playing up his moralistic side in the last update, but you, who prefer minimum toughness Edwin, feel it’s all good, maybe your take is influenced by you simply not playing as maximum toughness Edwin?

I have been struggling to write an indepth review of the latest update since public release, because it is really hard to point out where and in which way it didnt meet my expectations; it is hard because voicing a nuanced critique in an foreign language on a essentially very good and still way above average update takes me a lot of time and effort. It is hard because even if we know TD1900 is a good sport in taking substantial critique, i think nobody is above of involuntary feeling a little bit hurt when some rando pokes at their product i believe so much time and passion went into.
It is like your mother prepared for hours a feast and you publicly comment about the lack of salt in her soup at the dinner table in front of the whole family. I did something similar, and although i was technically right, it was less than stellar in that setting.
So should we avoid critique? Of course not, because i believe we, the fanbase, and Team Jeff&Mutt share the same goal: creating a game we both love. So i will try to tread with care.
To reuse above example: with this update TD1900 served a lovely home-cooked meal, but we were spoiled by their award winning chef cuisine in former updates.

Initially i was planning on a second playthrough of the latest update, in order to discuss my perceived strengthes and weaknesses of each scene. With the next update still months away, i am confident to be able to deliver a more balanced and fairer assessment at a later date. However, i wanted to chip into the present discussion instead of responding to some week-old posts of fellow members. So this is a bit quick and dirty shot from the hip and does not fully represent my view.

Overall i felt the latest update to be underutilized, and i am pretty much on the same page as sabadongelov. In nearly every scene i felt there was a decision or choice missing to enhance our agency on Edwins involve- and development.
Just two examples out of many:
At the restaurant -as i understand the situation-, Feli going for a fag outside and Rosie leaving for the toilet was designed in order to have Edwin an one on one with Veronica, but still i would have preferred to have an option to follow Rosie to the toilet or to catch some fresh air with Feli. For instance with following Rosie to the toilet we could have had a quick chat about meeting in the parking lot after the meal (and perhaps even gain or lose an affection point with another choice there) and then looping back to the Veronica situation. With Felicia we could have had a longer chat about the upcoming sugar-mommy date or something like her expectations about the exhibition, without looping back to Veronica, because Rosie would have finished her bathroom visit already.
The second example would be the human toilet scene with Cassandra in the velvet room. This was a Grade A missed chance to earn some Brownie points with Kathleen by making a degrading comment or loosing toughness by expressing disgust. Victoria raised no slow dummy, and some of us players were quite familiar with the watersport content provided so far. Being surprised may have been a good neutral choice for for those who avoided that content.

sabadongelov felt there were more choices in earlier parts of the game and without doing the actual count it is hard to tell for sure, but i definetly second this feeling.
I do understand there have to be restrictions on how much content each scene inside an update gets, because every author doesnt have infinite time and needs to get things actually done, but this update was the first time had the feeling -and this sounds super harsh and i am very well aware this is probably completely unfounded and unfair- that TD1900 cut some corners to finish the update on schedule.

Despite there being more, i will leave it for now, because without counterbalancing my critique with the really, really good, strong and positive scenes and situations (there are plenty of those too!) this post spirals into unintended negativity.
Please be aware that i fully recognize your effort and all my critique is born out of love and the greedy, self-centered notion of contributing to better an already great game!

 

[Tumai]

Oh, I'm sure it's more than that, that's just the expressed comments here that I remember reading - and my memory could be on the gentler side. Still, point is, you're not the first to bring it up.

Anyway, thank you for the food for thought.

I would say that the game itself is "subconsciously" nudging us toward the kinder side as all the 5 main LIs favor a more empathetic MC and, for 90% of us, getting favor/advancement with LIs influences what choices we pick.

The only female character that likes a ruthless/sado MC is Kathleen (and perhaps the chess playing nurse, although we've hardly interacted with her so far). It'll be interesting to see if any of the house girls are elevated (in the same way that Quinn, Lily, Envy, Riona are in BaDIK) to make going for "stay with the hoes at the club" ending more enticing.

 

[docute1357]

full gallery unlocked

put in folder game

 

[sabadongelov]

Oh, I'm sure it's more than that, that's just the expressed comments here that I remember reading - and my memory could be on the gentler side. Still, point is, you're not the first to bring it up.

Anyway, thank you for the food for thought.

No, thank you for the game!

I have been struggling to write an indepth review of the latest update since public release, because it is really hard to point out where and in which way it didnt meet my expectations; it is hard because voicing a nuanced critique in an foreign language on a essentially very good and still way above average update takes me a lot of time and effort. It is hard because even if we know TD1900 is a good sport in taking substantial critique, i think nobody is above of involuntary feeling a little bit hurt when some rando pokes at their product i believe so much time and passion went into.
It is like your mother prepared for hours a feast and you publicly comment about the lack of salt in her soup at the dinner table in front of the whole family. I did something similar, and although i was technically right, it was less than stellar in that setting.
So should we avoid critique? Of course not, because i believe we, the fanbase, and Team Jeff&Mutt share the same goal: creating a game we both love. So i will try to tread with care.
To reuse above example: with this update TD1900 served a lovely home-cooked meal, but we were spoiled by their award winning chef cuisine in former updates.

Initially i was planning on a second playthrough of the latest update, in order to discuss my perceived strengthes and weaknesses of each scene. With the next update still months away, i am confident to be able to deliver a more balanced and fairer assessment at a later date. However, i wanted to chip into the present discussion instead of responding to some week-old posts of fellow members. So this is a bit quick and dirty shot from the hip and does not fully represent my view.

Overall i felt the latest update to be underutilized, and i am pretty much on the same page as sabadongelov. In nearly every scene i felt there was a decision or choice missing to enhance our agency on Edwins involve- and development.
Just two examples out of many:
At the restaurant -as i understand the situation-, Feli going for a fag outside and Rosie leaving for the toilet was designed in order to have Edwin an one on one with Veronica, but still i would have preferred to have an option to follow Rosie to the toilet or to catch some fresh air with Feli. For instance with following Rosie to the toilet we could have had a quick chat about meeting in the parking lot after the meal (and perhaps even gain or lose an affection point with another choice there) and then looping back to the Veronica situation. With Felicia we could have had a longer chat about the upcoming sugar-mommy date or something like her expectations about the exhibition, without looping back to Veronica, because Rosie would have finished her bathroom visit already.
The second example would be the human toilet scene with Cassandra in the velvet room. This was a Grade A missed chance to earn some Brownie points with Kathleen by making a degrading comment or loosing toughness by expressing disgust. Victoria raised no slow dummy, and some of us players were quite familiar with the watersport content provided so far. Being surprised may have been a good neutral choice for for those who avoided that content.

sabadongelov felt there were more choices in earlier parts of the game and without doing the actual count it is hard to tell for sure, but i definetly second this feeling.
I do understand there have to be restrictions on how much content each scene inside an update gets, because every author doesnt have infinite time and needs to get things actually done, but this update was the first time had the feeling -and this sounds super harsh and i am very well aware this is probably completely unfounded and unfair- that TD1900 cut some corners to finish the update on schedule.

Despite there being more, i will leave it for now, because without counterbalancing my critique with the really, really good, strong and positive scenes and situations (there are plenty of those too!) this post spirals into unintended negativity.
Please be aware that i fully recognize your effort and all my critique is born out of love and the greedy, self-centered notion of contributing to better an already great game!

I agree and want to add that this is one of the absolute most qualitative games that can be found on this site and it would be worth playing even if the high toughness Edwin route were to be dropped entirely. And while I have the complaint about the last update that I have, I still enjoyed it immensely.

 

[sabadongelov]

I would say that the game itself is "subconsciously" nudging us toward the kinder side as all the 5 main LIs favor a more empathetic MC and, for 90% of us, getting favor/advancement with LIs influences what choices we pick.

The only female character that likes a ruthless/sado MC is Kathleen (and perhaps the chess playing nurse, although we've hardly interacted with her so far). It'll be interesting to see if any of the house girls are elevated (in the same way that Quinn, Lily, Envy, Riona are in BaDIK) to make going for "stay with the hoes at the club" ending more enticing.

This is something I’ve been thinking about also, that the affinity system is kind of set up in a way that will guide players toward a non maximum toughness playstyle. It’s exacerbated by the fact that there is a ceiling on toughness (caped at 30 if I’m not mistaken) that is reached quite quickly, at which point the player has even less incentive to choose toughness-options when they come with an affinity cost towards one or several of the LI:s. However, maybe there is a similar effect regarding minimum toughness playstyles also, as that is likely caped as well.

That said, I will now anyway give a counterpoint.

Firstly, it’s not quite true that five LI:s favour minimum toughness and just one favour maximum toughness. While Felicia doesn’t seem to be sadistic, like Kathleen, you don’t risk many of her affinity points by choosing toughness maximazation. On the contrary, I think you’re better off playing a tough Edwin if you want to score with her in the long run. Secondly, so far you haven’t lost much (any?) affinity points with Mina and Hana by maximizing toughness either. That is however probably mainly due to the relationship building with Mina and Hana up to the last update not really mixing with the sordid business at PC. But it means the last word isn’t said about these LI’s not working for a maximum toughness Edwin, or even if they would long term work for a minimum toughness Edwin, even though their personalities would indicate they would prefer the minimum toughness Edwin.

Secondly, Toughness choices do sometimes have a direct pay off effect (for instance, the first scene with Rosalind) that I do not think non toughness choices ever have. That could mean that a player could square the loss of potential LI:s with the gain of more scenes. However, as TD1900 expressed above, they’ve invested in making sure that a player should not miss out on scenes by choosing a more moral playstyle. That means that while the toughness choice might result in direct scene payoff, you don’t gain more scenes by playing tough as the non toughness choices give alternative scenes down the line. Following that same logic, a toughness play through should not give less opportunity for romancing LI:s than a non toughness play trough.

So, if we presently view Veronica and Rosalind as non toughness LI:s and Kathleen and Felicia as toughness LI:s, that leaves two LI:s that haven’t been assigned yet, Mina and Hana (meaning, so far you have been able to maximize their affection regardless of playing tough or not). As I mentioned, going on their presented personalities would indicate both would end up in the non toughness camp, but as a toughness player should not be penalized for his/her playstyle, we can’t have that! So, who should then turn to the dark side?

Well, Mina is the youngest and most impressionable and have also not really been introduced to the depraved workings of PC, so we don’t really know yet what she would think about it. While she seem bubbly innocent, she has already shown she is both willing and ready to cheat on her boyfriend with his best friend, which means that she is willing to forgo morality to sate/slake her lust/passion. That said, PC is extreme to the max and it would be mightily convenient if we’re to find out that the cute and seemingly innocent teenaged girlfriend of our best friend, that we just stole from him, is in reality a depraved sadist deep down. You know, oh, what great luck that she who we started a serious relationship just happen to go for the same depraved shit as we do.

Hana, on the other hand we know hate PC and what goes on there. But that also make her *very* delicious to corrupt. And she has just recently accepted the position as some sort of heiress to her fathers share of PC, something that tells us that her relationship to PC isn’t perhaps quite as simple as she herself has made it sound. At the very least, there is certainly an opening for corruption here, as a more stalwart moral do good:er wouldn’t have accepted that position. After all, she knows what it entails and yet she still accepts. She is in other words open for corrupting influences.

Add to this that she now will watch the depraved acts intently in a way she hasn’t before. Regardless of moral compass, what will happen if she finds herself getting aroused by the depravity? It could begin with something as seemingly innocent as simply getting aroused by seeing carnal and wanton acts of sex play out in front of her very eyes and then bloom from there in a more perverse direction.

Even more importantly, a maximum toughness Edwin who she has a relationship with can be there to prod and pull her along, contributing to the corruption and cajoling her into accepting and finally revelling in the depravity.

One terrific way to go about this is with the use of jealousy. Hana is after all both a passionate and quite angry young woman. But she has so far not shown any signs of jealousy (which of course is convenient, considering what Edwin does for a living and the premise of the game). I mean, she has even seen Edwin fuck the Carnations and her only complaint so far is if he treated them badly.

But what if that is because he so far has treated the carnations as objects, as fuck-toys, as whores there to be humiliated, exploited and used for the pleasure of the patrons? What would she feel if she sees him not only show kindness, but actual passion, warmth and affection towards one or several of the carnations, in the throes of what could be called lovemaking? What would she feel if she sees the carnation/carnations return these positive emotions? If she suddenly realize that the carnation/carnations could become rival/s for Edwins affection? What if that lights a fire of jealousy, anger and rage and even hatred within her heart?

That could very well lead down a dark path for her, where she would want Edwin to mistreat, humiliate and hurt the carnations as opposed to any sort of positive treatment, as she can’t demand that he stop having sex with them given their position at PC. And from there, the corruption can flow, where she will eventually learn to sexually enjoy dominating and humiliating her perceived rivals and then any woman unlucky to fall in the claws of PC, even at some time replacing Kathleen, whom she would still hate, not the least if she, Kathleen, also has designs on Edwins heart strings. I think this would probably be the most gratifying possible LI-arc for a maximum toughness Edwin that I can think of.

 

[Turret]

Hi!
I like the update, so the following is not to be seen as critic, but some thoughts, ideas and commentary on the game.

Toughness: We should not go for absolutes in Edwin´s behaviour. Very few people are one thing or the other. For instance, in my "pragmatic" playthrough Edwin (renamed, since Edwin is a very rare name in my country) is a genuine nice guy, trying to help people.
But this does not make him incapable of considering other options how to do it. He e.g. took the "Harper Gift" from Kath for purely strategic reasons. Both MC and player did not like what happened to Harper one bit and took some softening options, but did it for the Brownie points with Kath. If the MC wants to influence the fate of PC and the Carnations later on, he needs some trust and goodwill from August, Chuck and Kath first. So currently he toes the "company line" with Kath on small things and tries to bend and circumvent them and bigger ones when he can. Additionally he tries to get into Chuck´s and Augusts´ good graces (doubly so in August´s case since he is on Hana´s path). This has left Edwin with rather good standing among the PC leadership, which helped him greatly during the last exhibition.
Here he took quite a drop on stats with Kath because he chose nice options, like tickling the answer out of Felicia, but due to his work before Edwin still has okayish stats with Kath and really good ones with the other two owners, giving him options. Options like helping Jakob and girlfriend (it seems he fancies her enough to get into a fight for her) Emma out without having to worry much about backlash.

And Edwin´s niceness does not prevent him from contemplating helping, but pragmatic solutions, esp. when something does not sit well with him. As an example, Veronica´s standing with this Edwin dropped quite a bit during the new update. As we learned during the sauna visit, Samson´s dickmove meddling might have pushed Veronica onto this path, but that was just recognising a chance. The gym already was a millstone around the neck, Sam "just" added the whipped cream topping on it.

Veronica had already destroyed her marriage for a fracking gym studio, one her old trainer even warned her about before selling out to Sam. And Sam even told us that Veronica could easily walk away and start anew with another gym, there is still time for it, but that she won´t because of her pigheadedness. (pot please meet kettle, Sam and Vera are from the same cloth) And we know from Vera herself that even a win at PC is just a band aid. But pardon me, that drops her reason to be at PC very deep. She ruined her marriage, her friendship with Samson(it is hinted they had one), it seems her relations with family too and her finances for a Gym she was warned about by her trainer and even the guy who hastened the mess Veronica is in. And again, Samson himself stated that Vera could still start anew fresh, it is not too late for that. She could still have/live her dream without competing at PC.
So sorry, but for me this makes her reason for being at PC even worse than Feli´s. Felicia might be eccentric with an eccentric reason to compete, but she stands to win substancially if she wins in the end and even a loss might bring her at least some of the influence network she aspires to. She will not be worse off either way. Rosi simply has no other option to raise the needed money quickly enough.

And what IMO shines also through during the game, is that Sam has a big crush for Veronica. Most of what he did is because he could not land with her. He might be a dick and ass, but in a certain way those two deserve each other. I look forward to see if there is a possibility to couple them up, if Vera does not win.

 

[LastSonOfPersia]

Hello, so my save file were I chose Veronica as my partner is not working since the new update, other 3 work fine, is there any solution to this, or do I have to start from the beginning?

I'm sorry, but an uncaught exception occurred.

While running game code:
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in script
    $ ui.interact()
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in <module>
    $ ui.interact()
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

-- Full Traceback ------------------------------------------------------------

Full traceback:
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in script
    $ ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\ast.py", line 914, in execute
    renpy.python.py_exec_bytecode(self.code.bytecode, self.hide, store=self.store)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 2028, in py_exec_bytecode
    exec bytecode in globals, locals
  File "renpy/common/00gamemenu.rpy", line 173, in <module>
    $ ui.interact()
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\ui.py", line 297, in interact
    rv = renpy.game.interface.interact(roll_forward=roll_forward, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 2702, in interact
    repeat, rv = self.interact_core(preloads=preloads, trans_pause=trans_pause, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\core.py", line 3518, in interact_core
    rv = root_widget.event(ev, x, y, 0)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\transition.py", line 47, in event
    return self.new_widget.event(ev, x, y, st)  # E1101
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\screen.py", line 714, in event
    rv = self.child.event(ev, x, y, st)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 244, in event
    rv = d.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, st)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\layout.py", line 998, in event
    rv = i.event(ev, x - xo, y - yo, cst)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 962, in event
    return handle_click(self.clicked)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 897, in handle_click
    rv = run(action)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 313, in run
    new_rv = run(i, *args, **kwargs)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\display\behavior.py", line 320, in run
    return action(*args, **kwargs)
  File "renpy/common/00action_file.rpy", line 452, in __call__
    renpy.load(fn)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\loadsave.py", line 770, in load
    log.unfreeze(roots, label="_after_load")
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1983, in unfreeze
    self.rollback(0, force=True, label=label, greedy=greedy, on_load=True)
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1815, in rollback
    self.load_failed()
  File "C:\Users\User\Downloads\PaleCarnations-Ch3Up4Public-pc\renpy\python.py", line 1733, in load_failed
    raise Exception("Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?")
Exception: Couldn't find a place to stop rolling back. Perhaps the script changed in an incompatible way?

Windows-7-6.1.7601-SP1
Ren'Py 7.3.5.606
Pale Carnations Ch3Up4Public
Thu Jul 07 21:14:23 2022

 

[sabadongelov]

Hana: To be fair to her if she did accept the Job at PC she would have to see her mom deteriorate in her home until she (Hana Mom) would die a very slow borderline torturous death from Huntingtons (when the person affected has little control over movement, is bedbound, unable to communicate, unable to eat and drink on his/her own and experiences severe chorea or extreme rigidity). She has shown NO signs that she would be there at all if her dad did not blackmail her with her mothers health. August even directly confirms this in his office while he is thinking and drinking in his office.

I wasn't talking about her working there, but about her accepting the position as August heir within the company. But even if we're talking about working there, it is still a line she has crossed. That doesn't make what she has done all black or anything, it's perfectly understandable given her situation, but she doesn't come out of it a pristine white either and it is a potential window for further corruption.

Her and MC are not dating and have only had a few possible sexual encounters it would be weird of her to say "Hey MC we arent dating but you still arent allowed to have any sexual encounters with anybody even if our job calls for it".

Jealousy is a feeling, it's not a contractual obligation. It doesn't matter what she and Edwin has agreed to, she could be jealous all the same based on her feelings.

And while they haven't agreed to anything, I think it's quite clear that there is a budding romance growing between the two (if you played your cards right).

Which in turn isn't actually even neccessary for some people to be jealous. Some people don't want to share even their casual sexpartners with others. Just take this game and many other games as an example. Ever wondered why it's possible to play a whole playthrough without ever having to watch another dick even come close to any of the LIs? Probably because the anti-ntr crowd would go apeshit if they couldn't avoid having every LI be completely exlusive to the MC. And that's even though the LIs are computer pixels and not even real human beings. That's how fucking jealous people can be.

I really think you lean to far into the idea of her being super jealous if MC goes for the "Harem" (doubt this game will even end with a harem espically on the good boi route) if we go by in game right now you have the option to be "a partner in crime" a "friend" and a "sugar baby/fuck buddy".

I haven't said anything about a harem route. I don't think there will be one and at this point I don't think it would be fitting given the present narrative. PC is a game with a very realistic vibe and if you want to introduce harem in such a game, it would take a lot of build-up to explain (why a number of LIs in the modern age would accept that kind of deal) and so far, there has been no such build-up at all.

But you don't need harem for jealousy. Hana have seen and will see Edwin fuck the carnations over and over again. The more enamoured Hana becomes with Edwin, the greater the "risk" for jealousy. Especially if Hana think Edwin is developing a more romantic relationship with any of the carnations (which, again, doesn't have to have anything to do with Edwin aquiring a harem). If anything, if she isn't jealous at all, despite the potential love of her life constantly fucking other women right in front of her, she would be a rather unusual woman and way closer to the actual harem dream.

All in all while it is possible she will walk a path of corruption I think if we are dividing LI she falls into the low toughness ones (at least for now)

As Hana is presented right now I agree (which I also said), my post wasn't about what I think will come, but a potential scenario I would appreciate.

Mina: I think Mina for sure has an option to fall into the high toughness ones but just want to say that she cheated on her boyfriend who had cheated on her for months, with potentially DOZENS of women both at work and non, not only behind her back but also in front of her for the sole purpose of "her trying harder in bed". On top of that from what we have seen and heard Ian is not even close to as skilled (regardless of toughness) at sexual stuff as MC is. Many of these references could just be MC bantering with Ian but lets be honest MC is MC so obviously they will be better at sex than the average scumbag. Even if Ian did not cheat from everything we have heard (mostly from Mina) indicates that he wasnt a very attentive or a very good match for Mina overall. Now when you look at MC he has the option to be way more caring, attentive, and sexually generous in a single scene than Ian had in a year.

Well, then she should break up with him, not have an affair behind his back. But sure, I'm not saying she's Hitler for being unfaithful, I'm just saying that we already have an example of her going with lust/passion over morality. That in itself is of course nothing compared to the most depraved shit occuring in PC, so what she will think about that if/when she finds out, we do not know.

Also, Edwin being better at sex and/or a more attentive lover than Ian, is, in my view, not in any way, shape or form relevant to the question of Minas morality. Cheating doesn't become morally ok just because the man you're cheating with has a bigger dick than your husband or any similar "but the sex is soooo good"-argument.

Why do you yourself think that she "for sure has an option to fall into the high toughness ones"?

Do we know for sure how the LI will be divided at the end?

No, this was pure speculation/thought experiment on my part.

I agree with the idea that the game is nudging you towards low toughness but I argue that a long narrative as detailed and in depth as this would not work if the creators didnt focus towards one path.

It has worked perfectly fine for quite som time.

Focusing on both (while keeping the writing and characters as good as they are) requires huge dialogue additions as well as scene and story additions and alterations.

No, it doesn't. You need to think a little bit more on how you structure your story, but you don't have to constantly put the MC in such situations where he/she would react very differently depending on his/her character. As I just stated, PC has managed this very well for quite some time.

Why would a high toughness MC only eat mina out?

There can be numerous reasons for that. Here's a few examples:
1. He actually cares about her (high toughness Edwin isn't a raving psycopath who is incapable of caring for others)
2. He is playing the long game, do something for her now, reap the benefits later.
3. He simply enjoys eating pussy for its own sake.

Why would high toughness let Veronica close the gym? Etc etc.

I don't even remember the details regarding that, but it wasn't anything that stood out to me. Also, isn't it possible to insist that she keep the gym open?

While the game could nudge you towards a high toughness route instead of low or both I again think that writing would present a challenge but this time in the opposite direction.

I don't see why the game must "nudge" the player towards any particular route. Either you let the player choose or you don't. What you don't do is give the player choice and then half way through pull that choice away and force the player in another direction. That's not good game design.

It is much harder to write a story that is this compelling when the end goal is just corrupting/fucking whatever you want. Look no further than the 30 highest ranked games on the site, the vast majority of them dont focus directly on corruption/Harem and if they do nobody is arguing that they are as well written as PC (excluding Caribdis games). I personally think the easiest way for a game like this to be compelling is to have the world (the setting, characters etc) push the MC towards one thing while the narrative slightly pushes the opposite. My opinion is colored by the fact that I value an interesting story over every other factor in a game by a large margin so take this with a grain of salt. [/SPOILER]

I have no idea what your talking about here. Harem is a very common and popular fetish/genre* and while it isn't (so far and probably won't be) in this game, I'd say PC has a shit ton of corruption already. Corruption of Edwin himself, corruption of the carnations (some more than others, but even Felicia is learning new tricks), corruption of Mina (cheating with her boyfriends best friend) and corruption of Hana (soon to be part of the leadership of the very criminal enterprise she loves to decry). I don't see why corruption would stand in the way of an interesting story, any more than any other fetish.

Also, sidenote, Caribdis games are entertaining, but nowhere near as well written as PC.

* Example of a well written, high rated and popular harem game: Love of Magic.